Combined BA/MD Programs

[stayoptimistic]

I am a junior in high school and am contemplating applying for a combined 7 year BA/MD program that is offered by several colleges instead of going the conventional route to medical school.

If accepted, this would assure me of a place in medical school and depending on the program, I'd be able to avoid the MCAT altogether. I'd be required to maintain a minimum GPA and some community service - but it would be a lower GPA than would be required if I went to undergrad school and then applied to med school. I would also avoid all of the hassle and stress involved in getting accepted to a medical school down the line.

In reading these threads and seeing the angst that people are going through with the whole application process to med school, I am wondering whether the combined BA/MD program was an option that was considered by some of the posters and if they ruled it out, the reasons for deciding against it.

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[lderita46]

I applied to a few, didn't get accepted, but looking back, I'm glad that it worked out this way. I'll be applying this cycle so I'll have to go through all that angst you speak about. My GPA and MCATs weren't stellar, but we'll see how it goes, and if not accepted this cycle I'll just do a post-bac and reapply.

Sure, it would've been easier to have gotten into one of the BA/MD programs since I'm sure I still want to be a doctor, but I don't think I was ready for it back then. I feel like over the past four years of my undergraduate life, I've matured a great deal and I've had several experiences that have reaffirmed my desire to be a physician, some things that may not have happened had I gone through the BA/MD route.

I've also seen several of my friends who came in hardcore pre-med who decided halfway through college that pursuing an MD was something that they no longer wanted. I'm not just talking about those people who got weeded out by orgo and physics--I'm also including those people who had amazing grades, excellent extracurriculars, and I'm sure would've done just as well on the MCATs. A lot of my friends decided they'd rather go into research/grad school instead or even did a complete 180 and went into things not related to science at all.

Bottom line: At 17 or 18, I'm not sure one can be absolutely positive about the path they will end up pursuing in life. I've had to work a whole lot harder to get into med school because I didn't get into one of the BA/MD programs, but I think I will end up better because of it. If you're sure you want to go the BA/MD route, go ahead and apply and good luck to you. It is a nice option to be able to consider if you do get accepted.

 

[Dr. Chiquita]

I got into one and decided not to go. Best decision ever made considering where I am in my life. Yes, it is tough to go through the hoops of being a premed. But I think it made me stronger and took me to a path that I never would have considered had I decided to go the combined program. Go to a regular college, do well, experience life, take time off to do something that makes you happy, etc. Then, you can still decided to go to med school. You can get into better programs. You change so much over the course of your college years. Your wants and needs change dramatically. This is not to say that your commitment to medicine will change. It didn't for me at all. But what I want out of medicine has changed. And I'm so glad I am where I am now.

But I know some of those programs let you apply to other programs and you are not bound to go to their med schools. You might want to consider those programs if you really want the security. But if I were you, I would pick an undergrad that suits me the best, not these combined programs.

Good luck!

 

[stayoptimistic]

Thanks for the responses.

Yes, I am as sure as one can be, at least at this point, that I want to be a doctor. I have an excellent GPA and SAT scores and really enjoy all of the sciences.

The programs that I have checked out so far do offer considerable flexibility as long as one maintains the required minimum GPA which ranges from 3.3 to 3.5. After talking to several students who are now in med school after enrolling in these programs, they are almost unanimous that the lack of stress - during their undergrad years - has enabled them to pursue avenues and courses that they might not have been able to do had they gone the conventional route through med school. They tell me that if I am able to get into a decent program, going the combined route is really a no-brainer assuming that I am sure that I want to become a doctor.

I posted on this forum because I was wanting to get the opinions of others who may have considered this option and ruled it out. So your responses have certainly been helpful.

I would welcome the input of others who looked into this option. I'd be especially interested in hearing from anyone who went into a combined program and regretted the decision - and who if they had the chance again, would opt to go the conventional route.

 

[doc05]

doing a combined BA/MD is just about the stupidest thing you could do. don't even think about it...there just isn't a really good reason to go this route.

Thanks for the responses.

Yes, I am as sure as one can be, at least at this point, that I want to be a doctor. I have an excellent GPA and SAT scores and really enjoy all of the sciences.

"at this point" you're a 16- or 17-year old kid. It's unlikely you have any significant medical experience, and certainly not enough to know whether medicine is right for you. Heck, many of us in med school, or even residency, routinely complain that "this is not what I expected." You need time to figure things out, as well as to get a better picture of the economics involved (too many people ignore this aspect).

The programs that I have checked out so far do offer considerable flexibility as long as one maintains the required minimum GPA which ranges from 3.3 to 3.5. After talking to several students who are now in med school after enrolling in these programs, they are almost unanimous that the lack of stress - during their undergrad years - has enabled them to pursue avenues and courses that they might not have been able to do had they gone the conventional route through med school.

one problem with these ba/md programs is that they routinely recruit top high school graduates away from prestigious colleges. The undergrads affiliated with most ba/md programs are crappy schools (rice and brown being notable exceptions). Should you change your mind (a signifcant number of students do), you will have an unmarketable degree from a crappy college, as opposed to a BA from an ivy-league or similarly respected undergrad.

They tell me that if I am able to get into a decent program, going the combined route is really a no-brainer assuming that I am sure that I want to become a doctor.

Assuming you are sure is in fact a huge assumption. According to classic psychological theory, you are still developing your own identity, and will be doing so for several more years. At this point there is no reason to jump right into medicine, especially considering the seriousness of the career and the ramifications of a bad decision.

I posted on this forum because I was wanting to get the opinions of others who may have considered this option and ruled it out. So your responses have certainly been helpful.

I would welcome the input of others who looked into this option. I'd be especially interested in hearing from anyone who went into a combined program and regretted the decision - and who if they had the chance again, would opt to go the conventional route.

The bottom line is that you should go to the best college you can afford, have fun, do well, and explore your academic and career options. if you ultimately decide on medicine, you can do it. the mcat is really no sweat assuming you've gotten good college grades. good luck.

 

[Darth Asclepius]

the mcat is really no sweat assuming you've gotten good college grades.

Doc05 is exactly right. The MCAT is really not that bad. Yes, it takes a lot of work to prepare for it, but to be honest, if preparing for the MCAT is too much trouble for a student, I would assume they won't be too happy with the workload in med school or preparing for the boards. Looking back, the MCAT was a challenge, but not that big a deal (certainly not bad enough to warrant making a decision this early in your life in part to avoid it). The application/interview process was a pain, but I would rather have gone through that and have the interview experience now since I'm going to have to do it again in 4 years for residency.

 

[javert]

doing a combined BA/MD is just about the stupidest thing you could do. don't even think about it...there just isn't a really good reason to go this route.

Oh give me a break! Know what you're talking about before going on a rant like that!

There are some out there (like the one I *WAS* in) that are non-binding and thus allow you to have the peace of mind of having been accepted to med school, while still allowing you to apply elsewhere and take time to make sure that medicine is right for you.

To the OP:
I was in the BS/MD program at the University of Rochester, and have absolutely no regrets at all. While in college I decided that MD/PhD was a better route for me than MD, so I applied this past cycle and will be going to UPenn next year.

Note that Rochester's program is NOT 7 years and, obviously, not binding.

Here's what I posted in another thread to a poster who was deciding between a 7-year program at SLU and going to an ivy league school:

BS/MD programs are great in that they allow you to not worry about the application process and enjoy college to the fullest extent. During my first two years before I started thinking about applying for MD/PhD programs I trully feel that I had a much better undergrad experience than I would if I had been a typical pre-med being anal about grades and preparing for the MCAT. However, in addition to this freedom, you also need the freedom to drop out without repercussions or to apply elsewhere if you goals change while in college...you never know what will happen over the next four years.

I would not recommend attending programs that are accelerated, binding, revoke your acceptance if you decide to apply elsewhere, and that does not give you a bachelor's degree.

For the programs that aren't any of the above, they can be great. It was wonderful not having to worry about MCATs, GPA, or any other premed stuff...but it was even better knowing that when I decided that the straight MD-path wasn't for me I had the backing of my BS/MD program and I had nothing to fear by applying out. You never know what will happen over the next 6 years, so consider your options carefully.

Finally, as with most of doc05's post, it is an exageration to say that 'most' BA/MD programs give you an 'unmarketable' degree from a 'crappy' school. However, if you end up considering a combined degree program, make damn sure that you like the undergrad and really like the med school. Rochester was my 2nd choice for undergrad, and I got lowsy fin aid at my top choice so there was no way that I was going there...plus, even though I won't be going there, I still view Rochester's med school as on eof the best, if you like their philosophy.

 

[HStoMS]

I am starting a combined BS/MD in the fall. I too asked opinions from posters on SDN and most were negative. It is always helpful to get other views but only you can decide what is right for you. I decided that the combined program gives me the most flexibility in my education. I know most say the opposite,but if you think about it, what do you have to loose. You are set for medical school, you can do all the things as an undergraduate you what (without fear of hurting you competitive position) want to take a course in basket weaving, go ahead. Most of these programs are not as structured as people say (unless it is accelerated). All you need to do is complete your premed. requirements and as you said keep up your GPA. Some are for bio majors only etc but not all. For many of them you can major in anything you want, do a semeater abroad, or even quit and do something else! They are not all associated with ivies but if you think places like Penn State, Lehigh, W&J, Rice, Rochester, Stony Brook, Muhlenberg, Pitt. etc are crappy schools then you are an elitist snob and probably should be a lawyer instead! I agree it is difficult to know for sure where you want to be 10 years from now but if medicine seems like a strong possibility I say do it! Nobody will be holding a gun to your head once you go. Additionally, beware of some posters (not all, most are sincerely helping) being sooo negative. I think they are hating the fact that they are being tortured with the application process and faced with rejection. Ask those on the rejection threads if they could have been accepted right out of high school if they would have done it. I know I am going to be blasted let it rip!

 

[logos]

I'd say go for it. I know a lot of people in the combined program at my school and they seem pretty happy with the decision. Its also a lot less of a hassel, no preparing for the MCAT, no constantly worrying about grades (so long as you keep them reasonably high). Its not a bad deal. At the same time, 3 years of college fly right by. I worked my ass of to finish in 3 years (no program) and get into medschool (effectively made a 7yrs program) and i'm thinking I might miss college next year. Not sure if I want it to end already.

 

[stayoptimistic]

Thanks, again, to all who contributed with their opinions.

javert, thanks for the link to the other thread that addressed the same issues. It was certainly helpful in terms of my education.

What is striking in the case of both this thread and the prior one, is that there does not appear to be anyone who enrolled in one of these combined programs who regretted the decision to go that route. By the same token, there are several who did not enroll - whether because they never applied for such a program or were not offered a place - and therefore went the conventional route, who seem to feel strongly that combined programs are a thoroughly bad idea.

I am not sure what it means to have such polarization in terms of opinions between the two schools of thought on this subject.

The oft stated view that going the undergrad route offers the exposure and opportunities that a combined program would not, does not seem consistent with the experience of those who have gone through the program. Other than the 6 year program - which is very high pressure - those in both the 7 and 8 year programs invariably say that the absence of pressure in terms of GPAs', MCAT, EC and the whole application to med school process, has left them the time to really enjoy their undergrad experience including exploring options that they might not otherwise have been able to pursue.

I would be curious to know how many enrollees in these combined programs drop out because they feel it is not right for them. doc05 suggested that this is not an infrequent occurrence but I have not seen any statistics to back this up or heard anecdotal information from actual participants in the programs.

 

[javert]

What is striking in the case of both this thread and the prior one, is that there does not appear to be anyone who enrolled in one of these combined programs who regretted the decision to go that route. By the same token, there are several who did not enroll - whether because they never applied for such a program or were not offered a place - and therefore went the conventional route, who seem to feel strongly that combined programs are a thoroughly bad idea.

I am not sure what it means to have such polarization in terms of opinions between the two schools of thought on this subject.

Very astute observation. Not sure what means either

I would be curious to know how many enrollees in these combined programs drop out because they feel it is not right for them. doc05 suggested that this is not an infrequent occurrence but I have not seen any statistics to back this up or heard anecdotal information from actual participants in the programs.

I can only speak for the Rochester program, and before I do that let me explain where I'm coming from. When I was applying for undergrad, I wasn't one of those people who applied to 15+ combined degree programs; I chose what schools to apply to based on their undergrad program only, and if these schools also had an 8-year combined program I also applied to it. For me, this meant I only applied to 2 programs (Case and Rochester).

Anyway, at Rochester, tover the past 7 years there have been over 70 students to enter in the program. Out of those 70 people, I am only aware of 1 person who 'dropped out' in the sense that they decided to go to another MD program. There has been one person in the entire history of the program to drop out and decided not to go to medical school. No one has been kicked out of the program because of GPA or the like, although one person recently came very close and this person who didn't go after a MD probably would have been kicked out if he didn't withdraw voluntarily.

There have been at least 4 people in the last 7 years to go after a MD/PhD instead of an MD. One of these went to UW, one stayed at Rochester, I am going to UPenn, and one of my classmates is either going to be staying here or going to UW. Not sure if you consider this as dropping out, but the BS/MD program actively encourages us to consider these options, even if it means going to another school.

My class year, which consists of 7 people, is quite interesting. As I've said 2 of us are entering MD/PhD programs. One person graduated a year early and entered into the MD/MBA program at Rochester. Another person in my class is doing a 3-2 BS/MPH program and then entering in to the MD program. A student in the class behind me is graduating a year early and spending the year between college and medical school in Romania doing a Fulbright Fellowship. Quite a few people decide to take 5 years for undergrad--Rochester has a special program called 'Take 5' that allows you to apply to take a 5th year to study a topic of interest unrelated to your major for free. All of these people are not following the typical path of the combined degree program, but would you consider them to be droping out? Not in my opinion. Rochester is very proud that so many students in the combined program decide to go after additional degrees or do fellowships or stay in undergrad an extra year just for fun. The best part about (some) BS/MD programs is they give you more freedom to be able to explore interests unrelated to Medicine and make you start to second guess your decision to get an MD only. At Rochester, you can enter the MD/MBA, MD/MPH, and similar programs without taking the MCATs...MD/PhD obviously does require taking the MCAT. So, if you go to a BS/MD program, make sure that you have sufficient freedom and time (this is why I don't like the idea of 7-year programs) to explore other fields and really consider your career path. The Rochester program, starting this past year, has just required incomming students to take two courses that are reserved only for students in the BS/MD program (there used to be almost no requirements at Rochester...either for the combined program or for the undergrad in general). These two required courses is a course on clinical research and a freshman seminar that brings in various medical researchers to talk about medical-related basic science researchers. Why have these courses been added? The main reason is to get students to consider making research a part of their future medical career.

There is something you should know about BS/MD programs (this is something that the director at UR tells to every student). They have one specific primary purpose: to increase the calibre of students coming to the undergad college. The Rochester med school can find just as tallented people to fill the spots of those in the combined program, so the program doesn't care much at all if you decide to go elsewhere for medical study or if you decide that you want another degree. What they do care about is you doing what's best for you.

I'm sorry that I'm talking about Rochester so much...I probably sound like I'm trying to recruit people, but I'm not. As I said the Rochester program is the only one that I know much about, so I can't speak about the other programs.

 

[masterMood]

if you're smart enough to get into a bs/md program, do you realize that medicine is a full commitment. Unlike other professions, you can expect working at least 50 hours a week, often times like 70 hours or even 100 hours. If money is a major reason why you want to go into medicine (and there is no reason to be ashamed for this), consider dentistry, optometry,physician's assistant, nurse, podiatry where the hours are very relaxed, you'll have much free time and spend more time with family. I asked all my friends whose dads are doctors, and asked them how often they get to see them, how many hours they work, and they admit that their lifestyles are very different from regular people. One of their dads have been working like 100 hours for the past month, and has only come home to sleep. So the family doesn't have much time to be together.

It is wise to realize that basically any field in health will give you job security, and if money is a big reason, I can say that dentistry for example give's a very rewarding salary and relaxed life.

Also realize that if you go into the b.s./m.d. program (is it a 3 year b.s. degree?), you won't have as much time to enjoy the college experience, seeing as you'll be condensing the bio major in 3 years (and over the summers). And when you get into med. school, there's no time for fun because you need to work hard, and the same goes for residency. If you don't enjoy college now while working hard, you're not going to have as much freedom until you become a doctor which could mean anywhere from 30 to 40.

My parents said that if I wanted to go into medicine, I should apply for the B.S./M.D. programs and i didn't want to because at this point i'm still not sure if the lifestyle of medicine and high hours is worth it. Sure medicine is my top choice, but i think everyone has to admit that the hours suck a lot. Next year, i'll be shadowing some docs and volunteer as an EMT hopefully to get an idea if i want to do this for the rest of my life.

One final piece of advice, also realize that if you get into the BA/MD program, recognize that although you are unsure if you want o go into medicine or not, you're probably going to go under family pressure, school pressure, whatever to do it. What might ultimately happen is that you'd get so excited you got into this program and enter it, and realize you do not enjoy the course material, the profession or whatever, and miss going to another school that fits you more (i found that the combined progra m schools, for the most part, were great in the fact that they had these programs, but didn't like the college itself)

 

[stayoptimistic]

javert, thanks for a very informative post.

Your description of the Rochester program makes it sound very attractive. They seem to have a quite comprehensive program that offers several options and also encourages students to broaden their horizon. I was also interested to read your comments about the attrition rate in the program - which is quite remarkable. I would venture to guess that the attrition rate among entrants who enroll in med school may well be higher.

If I have a bias for any particular program, it would be the 7 year program that GWU offers. I don't know if you or anyone else has an opinion about the merits of GW's med school. The program has several attractions though I am not sure if it permits one to apply to another med school without jeopardizing the guaranteed place at GW. One of the attractions is that my mother - who is a physician - is on the faculty there and therefore I would get a decent discount in the tuition.

I know that GW's med school is not one of the more highly rated ones based on the US News rankings but I have heard from students at the school that their experience has been quite positive. GW's matriculants also have a respectable record when it comes to matching. However, the discounted tuition is not the sole determinant of which combined program I would apply to - assuming that I end up going this route and assuming that I get into a suitable program.

 

[stayoptimistic]

if you're smart enough to get into a bs/md program, do you realize that medicine is a full commitment. Unlike other professions, you can expect working at least 50 hours a week, often times like 70 hours or even 100 hours.

Hmmm! I guess I do since my mother is a physician!! However, let me say that to some extent the number of hours one works is a function of specialty and personal priorities. For example, my mother has, for years, made a point of not taking calls and from time to time taken a leave of absence so that she can spend time doing other things. It has meant a financial sacrifice - but that is something that she has been more than willing to do given her priorities.

If money is a major reason why you want to go into medicine ....

I am curious why you would make this statement just because I sought input regarding the BA/MD combo program.

If money was my motivation, I'd follow my father's career path. He was a senior executive in a corporation and made more money than my mother ever did. He also, for all intents and purposes, retired in his mid-forties after the company he worked for was sold and between stock options and his severance package he did quite well. Alternatively, I'd pursue a career in investment banking - I have a close relative who did so, after completing a MBA from a top business school and makes the kind of money that only the most successful physicians can hope to make.

Financially, medicine as a career is, if anything, quite high risk. Four years of college, and another four more of med school and then several years of residency during which one is overworked and underpaid, loans to repay, compensation levels that have been declining - well, these don't exactly sound like powerful incentives.

My motivation to pursue medicine is entirely my own decision - no family pressure or any other kind of pressure. I am not cut out for the business world - my father agrees although he does say that at my age, he would not have been viewed as an ideal candidate either.

I am attracted to the BA/MD program because what I don't like about the college application process - and by extention the application process for med school - is the sheer randomness of it all. For example, I currently have a 4.0 GPA and a SAT in the mid 1500s' on the old test and the low 2300s' in the new test, a bunch of APs' that I already have or will more than likely score 5s' or 4s', a whole host of EC activities, awards, etc but there is no assurance that this will get me into a highly selective college because there thousands of other students with the same profile.

Now to have to go through this same random process after some hard slogging during under-grad, when I apply to med school is something that just does not appeal to me and a BA/MD program - if I get into a decent one - will remove that uncertainty. I have seen people with MCAT scores in the mid 30s' and excellent GPAs' post about being rejected at a multitude of med schools. Perhaps there is something else wrong with the profile of these applicants - but it could also be the randomness of the process, an interview on an off day, some response that someone did not like, or something else wholly subjective.

I don't know a whole lot about the MCAT, but I am less concerned with that test - because quite frankly, I seem to test well based on past experience. But not to have to worry about the MCAT, and about maintaining a high GPA through undergrad - and at the same time to have the flexibility to pursue other interests and courses quite unrelated to medicine is the best of all worlds.

There are two things that I have read which are valid. First, the question of whether at the age of 16 or 17 one can reasonably know what one wants to do in the way of a career. Second, someone posted that some residency programs frown on applicants who have attended such programs though the person who wrote this made specific mention of 6 year programs. I don't know how accurate this statement is when it comes to 7 or 8 year programs but, if true, it is certainly a legitimate point.

 

[javert]

I am curious why you would make this statement just because I sought input regarding the BA/MD combo program.

Don't worry about him...he just goes back and forth between being a borderline troll and just being plain arrogant and/or ignorant. He, just like you, is in high school, and so his opinions are based on not much more experience than yours.

I'm sorry I can't say anything about GW's program. Hopefully someone else on here can. I would definately look in to it if I were you, especially with the tuition discount.

Anyway, my recommendation, is to apply to a diverse selection of programs...some BS/MD, some just regular undergrad. Then go to whatever school you like the best that's within your price range. I would definately look into the programs as you're applying, just be sure to keep an open mind (it's clear to me taht you are) and do a lot of research into the programs before making any comitments.

The point about residencies is an interesting one. I doubt that there's any bias against the 8 year programs, although i'm sure there is against the 6-year. That would be a great question to program directors during interviews.

Best of luck in your application process. I'll keep a watch on this thread to see if anything else comes up that I can address.

 

[masterMood]

javert likes to discredit other people because he's failing as a pre-med. I don't think you want to take his advice because he is a flamer and gives ignorant/arrogant advice.

He's just jealous that other people who are younger than him want to start out strong unlike himself 🙂

 

[javert]

javert likes to discredit other people because he's failing as a pre-med. I don't think you want to take his advice because he is a flamer and gives ignorant/arrogant advice.

He's just jealous that other people who are younger than him want to start out strong unlike himself 🙂

wow...that was a quick response. I'm failing as a pre-med? How so?

I don't think I even have to argue, so I'll just leave it as an open-ended question.

EDIT: He IMed me to argue about it...

 

[masterMood]

"Don't worry about him...he just goes back and forth between being a borderline troll and just being plain arrogant and/or ignorant."

Well, I'm just bored right now as to the IM reference, but it many of your posts, for no reason you accuse people and incite flame wars in many threads.

Can you explain to me how I am a troll?

In fact, who started this into a nascent flame war? Javert. "Don't worry about him...he just goes back and forth between being a borderline troll and just being plain arrogant and/or ignorant....." <--- was this not an attack and thus causing a reply and back and forth...

 

[mr_bertman]

when i was applying to colleges, the two BA/MD programs i applied to were BU's and northwestern's, and i strongly considered both. for me, location was the #1 consideration for a combined program, since i'd be spending 7 years there at the least. one of my best friends in high school also applied to combined programs. he picked BU, where he's now an MSII and loves it. i ended up going to harvard, where i had an incredible time (and also often met up with my high school friend in boston), and now i'm an MSI on scholarship at case med, which is also a great school. i think i would have hated 8 years in cleveland, but so far it's actually been a nice change of pace, and much cheaper too. so don't listen to this "BA/MD programs are ****" nonsense. a great program like rice/baylor may be the perfect program for you, and that's worth thinking about. likewise, don't let anyone tell you that going to an ivy wouldn't be worth it, because my college classmates were the most amazing students i'll ever meet, and you just don't find students with such broad and accomplished interests in medical school or even in a BA/MD program. personally, i'd advise going to the best college you can, do well, and then decide what you want to do with the rest of your life. if you're smart enough to get into combined programs, you're smart enough to do well in college and have a full array of options to choose from when you're a senior.

 

[JenB]

I will agree with Javert.

I don't like 7 year programs because you don't have enough time to fully explore everything (study abroad, random electives, research, etc.). 6 year programs are even worse.

Programs that are binding are not such a hot idea - everyone on this thread is right, you might change your mind, as unlikely as that seems now. Programs that require really high GPA/MCATs are stupid and a waste of time (think WashU).

Now, there are some AWESOME programs. Rochester REMS is great, and I would have applied to that if I had not been accepted to Rice early, and gone to Rice/Baylor (where I am now a freshman at Rice).

I would strongly recommend that you look at Rice/Baylor. It's a really great opportunity, and anyone competitive for the GW program would be competitive at Rice/Baylor. Plus, you will almost certainly save a heck of a lot of money going to Rice/Baylor over doing the traditional route. The great thing about Rice/Baylor (and REMS, i believe) is that if you decide not to apply out of the program to other medical schools, you don't lose your med school spot. Which means that you effectively have one of the very best medical schools in the country as your safety. Now that's pretty sweet.

 

[averatec25]

i got into usc bac/md
it is 8 years, non-binding ( you can apply out about 1/3 each year go elsewhere), u spend 4 years in a quality establishment within SoCal and u have a guaranteed admission into an awesome med school in california. the program was created so students, who are pretty positive they are gonna be doctors, to take risks and explore other interests that they have. a lot of their application is questions that have the words ' not related to medicine ' so you know that they want people who will explore usc and its many opportunities;
i was thinking about a 6 year program thats equally as good (penn statew/jefferson) but i would be so limited in the things i can do and weather doesn't compare to usc!

 

[asterstar]

About the residency matches for BS/MD students...I've actually heard the opposite, that combined program graduates are looked upon favorably. I have a friend who went to UMiami's program back when it was 6-yr, and she ended up getting a residency at MGH. It's only a single case of anecdotal evidence, but I think it's worth considering.

 

[lderita46]

About the residency matches for BS/MD students...I've actually heard the opposite, that combined program graduates are looked upon favorably. I have a friend who went to UMiami's program back when it was 6-yr, and she ended up getting a residency at MGH. It's only a single case of anecdotal evidence, but I think it's worth considering.

I'm also guessing that because these programs are highly competitive, your friend must've been extremely intelligent and a hard worker to get into one, and therefore could've gotten a residency at MGH regardless of whether she was in a combined program or not.

 

[OntheRoof55]

I would say def go for it, if its non-binding that is. I'm in one now and I've applied out this year...havent gotten in anywhere yet so its a good safety...i know cuz I know that atleast I'm gonna go to med school somewhere....the good thing about my program though is that the MCAT was required...so it wasnt somethign extra i had to do

 

[kuralia]

Do not waste time and shoot.If you are a girl it is best for you as you can start life at 23 or 24.I have dahghters and know.People who are giving you advice to not to go ,most of them applied and did not get accepted.Now they are taking the pain by telling someone not to do it.I am older guy and give you an example
In 94 some girl whose family we knew got accepted to JEEferson and Penn State BS/MD.A few days later she got into Yale and her head turned around.I kept telling her to go for accelrated.However she chose Yale.First couple years she had a hell of time suffering.By the time she graduated she was in 85000 debt.She could no longer think about medicine as her GPA was in lower 3's.She ended up as a forensic scientist at Chicago police deptt making 41 grand a year.
So kid do not be discouraged.Opprtunities do not come easily,and now you have one do not waste.My kid at UMKC Med School.And their residency choices are excellent.Well your choice and I will go to med school and get their opinion too.I do not where you at but SLU in St louis got a med scholars program and you can get in with 30 on ACT.My daughter was inbut she chose UMKC as you start med school right away.Eme if any questions [email protected]

 

[Service404]

how does uic's bac/md (gppa) program rank in terms of quality and prestige? is it a program worth considering?

 

[riceman04]

doing a combined BA/MD is just about the stupidest thing you could do. don't even think about it...there just isn't a really good reason to go this route.



"at this point" you're a 16- or 17-year old kid. It's unlikely you have any significant medical experience, and certainly not enough to know whether medicine is right for you. Heck, many of us in med school, or even residency, routinely complain that "this is not what I expected." You need time to figure things out, as well as to get a better picture of the economics involved (too many people ignore this aspect).



one problem with these ba/md programs is that they routinely recruit top high school graduates away from prestigious colleges. The undergrads affiliated with most ba/md programs are crappy schools (rice and brown being notable exceptions). Should you change your mind (a signifcant number of students do), you will have an unmarketable degree from a crappy college, as opposed to a BA from an ivy-league or similarly respected undergrad.



Assuming you are sure is in fact a huge assumption. According to classic psychological theory, you are still developing your own identity, and will be doing so for several more years. At this point there is no reason to jump right into medicine, especially considering the seriousness of the career and the ramifications of a bad decision.



The bottom line is that you should go to the best college you can afford, have fun, do well, and explore your academic and career options. if you ultimately decide on medicine, you can do it. the mcat is really no sweat assuming you've gotten good college grades. good luck.

No, it really is not the "stupidest" thing one can do. Some kids, though only 16,17, or 18, may know wxactly what profession in which they want to get involved. Others may not!!! Regardless of that, it is smart as hell to get into one of these programs, especially one that is not binding and allows a person to obtain a degree in any major (and take four years to do it). Having to only maintain at least a 3.3 is ideal!!!!!! And if a kid decides he no longer wants to pursue medicine then he just leave the program.

My point is that you can still go to the best college you can afford, have fun, of course do well, and explore your academic and career options. The Rice Baylor Program allows you to do exactly that, which is why it is sooooooooooo great!

 

[medstyle]

No, it really is not the "stupidest" thing one can do. Some kids, though only 16,17, or 18, may know wxactly what profession in which they want to get involved. Others may not!!! Regardless of that, it is smart as hell to get into one of these programs, especially one that is not binding and allows a person to obtain a degree in any major (and take four years to do it). Having to only maintain at least a 3.3 is ideal!!!!!! And if a kid decides he no longer wants to pursue medicine then he just leave the program.

My point is that you can still go to the best college you can afford, have fun, of course do well, and explore your academic and career options. The Rice Baylor Program allows you to do exactly that, which is why it is sooooooooooo great!

yeah, i think the whole "you don't know what you want to do at 18" line is a farce. Everyone who is applying to med school straight from undergrad was gunning to be a doctor since they got into med school. The only people that had a change of heart were those that applied after working in another field.

You want to be a doctor? Go to your combined program almost every time. But if you're choosing between a top school, you have to take a look at yourself and see if you're ready to get good grades at a tough school.

I would recommend the 6 year program, only because you save two years. Two years is a LONG time to save. Even if you're at a slight disadvantage for residency because your school sucks, you'll still be done earlier. Medicine is a long career choice, the only way you can shave time is by cutting undergrad short.

 

[javert]

I would recommend the 6 year program, only because you save two years.

In my opinion you don't save two years...you LOSE two years...two years of undergrad...two years to explore things outside of medicine...two years to have fun and relax before the hard work starts.

 

[stayoptimistic]

I would recommend the 6 year program, only because you save two years. Two years is a LONG time to save.

I am looking for the best of both worlds: the assurance of a place in a good medical school without the hassles and pressures of going through the whole application process and at the same time maintaining as much as possible of the undergrad experience. Six years, from all of the feedback that I have read, would mean that I would lose out on the undergrad experience. I really would like to use those years to expand my interests to cover so much else that is offered at college. Ideally, a 8 year program would the most responsive to this objective but under the right circumstances, I would not rule out a 7 year program.

 

[wllstrttycoon]

GPA- 4.0 on 4.0 scale
ACT- 33 subscores 29- math, 33- reading, 34- science, 35- english
SAT- 1390

Everyone said it couldn't be done, but you don't know unless you try. I applied at 6 schools and got interviews at 4 of them. The four I interviewed at were Gannon University and the Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine, The Illinois Institute of Technology and the Rosalind Franklin Med school, The University of missouri-kansas city, and the University of Illinois at Chicago. I got into all of them but IIT and RF. I'm going to UIC in the fall. I bought the book "the high school doctor" but it made it seem like the programs were a lot harder to get into than they were. The key seemed to be being a well rounded student. At LECOM, the doctor, assistant dean of the med school, and I talked for 40 mins about my friends and how I was into investing. We didn't mention medicine once except for the first question which was "why do you want to be a doctor." It seemed to work b/c the director of admissions at Gannon, Christopher Tremebely called me to tell me that I was accepted and he also told me that the Med school said I was one of the most impressive applicants they've interviewed for this program. So just believe in yourself and have something interesting to talk about because what they're looking for is whether they'd want you to be their physician. Good Luck to all of you who are applying. Email me at [email protected] if you want to talk more. I usually don't look at SDN a lot.

Tom

 

[mastamark]

I am currently a second year undergrad and 26 years old. I worked for 5 years as a paramedic and saw that medicine was for me. I can't understand someone wanting to plunge into a career like medicine without first getting into the trenches, or at least the edge. As a 16 or 17 year old you're probably getting your motivation from "ER" or "Gray's Anatomy" or something like that. Medicine is not what it seems. Take your time, there is no rush. Give college a whirl and enjoy it. You may find that you want to do marine biology or something. I may be wrong and medicine is your calling; but you can't find this out by watching scrubs. And also those years after high school; wheter they're spent in college or working, fly by very quickly. "Don't Blink you will miss the part of your life where you grow up and become an adult." Good luck kiddo. 😀

 

[jeevesbond]

I think if you ask ppl who did not do a combined program you will get a poor opinion in some ways...no offense, but its like asking someone who went to art school whether you should get a phd...i am a seven year med, and there are advantages and disadvantages...if interested, i am more than willing to privately discuss both, as i have seen the different aspects...plus I am in the unique position of almost completing my medical training, and can provide you, with what I believe to be, a more accurate picture of seven years...

incidentally, the year less in college means nothing, and I was sure I wanted to do medicine when I was young, and I never regretted it...just cuz other people here are in their 30s doing medicine, doesnt mean everyone needs to "figure out their life."

 

[71263]

...

 

[Kazema]

About the residency matches for BS/MD students...I've actually heard the opposite, that combined program graduates are looked upon favorably. I have a friend who went to UMiami's program back when it was 6-yr, and she ended up getting a residency at MGH. It's only a single case of anecdotal evidence, but I think it's worth considering.

One of my family's friends had all 3 kids ("kids", they're all 5-10 years older than me) go through Jefferson's accelerated program. All matched well; the youngest daughter is finishing her derm residency at UCLA (I think - something in LA anyway) and is joining/opening (not sure which) a practice in Beverly Hills. My mom told me a while ago and I wasn't paying too much attention to the details .

Back when I was applying to colleges this family friend really tried to push me into applying for the program, but at that point medicine was just about the furthest thing from my mind. I'm kind of glad I didn't - even if I had gotten in (which is doubtful) I was not ready at that point to decide on any career, much less medicine.

But I feel that the OP seems really mature (more than I was as a college senior! ) and very knowledgeable about the benefits and downsides of these programs and seems genuinely interested in a career in medicine. I think a program like Rochester's would be great for him (her?), giving the freedom of a 4 year undergrad experience with the safety of knowing medical school is guaranteed if he so chooses. For some people I think a BS/MD is a good choice, for others no.

 

[patsi209]

Hi, I'm also considering applying to a combined ba/md program. But I'm really not sure which one to apply to. Reading this discussion really helped me decide on a program that is not binding. But other than the one at University of Rochester, are there other combined ba/md programs that give you that same freedom?

 

[happytograduate]

Do not waste time and shoot.If you are a girl it is best for you as you can start life at 23 or 24.I have dahghters and know.People who are giving you advice to not to go ,most of them applied and did not get accepted.Now they are taking the pain by telling someone not to do it.I am older guy and give you an example
In 94 some girl whose family we knew got accepted to JEEferson and Penn State BS/MD.A few days later she got into Yale and her head turned around.I kept telling her to go for accelrated.However she chose Yale.First couple years she had a hell of time suffering.By the time she graduated she was in 85000 debt.She could no longer think about medicine as her GPA was in lower 3's.She ended up as a forensic scientist at Chicago police deptt making 41 grand a year.
So kid do not be discouraged.Opprtunities do not come easily,and now you have one do not waste.My kid at UMKC Med School.And their residency choices are excellent.Well your choice and I will go to med school and get their opinion too.I do not where you at but SLU in St louis got a med scholars program and you can get in with 30 on ACT.My daughter was inbut she chose UMKC as you start med school right away.Eme if any questions [email protected]

What kuralia fails to mention, which he does say in his previous thread posts is that one of his two daughters quit the UMKC Program: "From my exp.I sent two daughters to UMKC School of medicine,elder one is doing great but the 2nd one flunked out in the first semester.She told the committe that she just wanted to get out of house and parents will let her only if she joins this program." Kuralia, if you are going to post, at least be responsible and tell the entire story, not just the parts you like.

Kuralia's own story reflects that the BA/MD program is not a good fit for everyone.

 

[MsHornet]

I was in the BA/MD program at Brooklyn College. I gave up some pretty top notch schools like Columbia U, UPenn and Georgetown to go to this program because of the assurance. It was sad to give up going away to school and living home but I sucked it up because i was thinking of my future.
Three years down I line, all i had left to do was my mcat and in studying for it i realized medicine wasn't what I wanted to do.
People grow up so much in college. I was able to study abroad, and do all sorts of activities because i had my spot in downstate...I got lost in the pretty side of life. There is so much out there- a whole world to discover before getting stuck in a hospital.
I wish i had kept my options open but what can I do. I'm just glad i didn't do something I didn't want to do

 

[Magnetek Blue]

I was in the BA/MD program at Brooklyn College.
Three years down I line, all i had left to do was my mcat and in studying for it i realized medicine wasn't what I wanted to do.
People grow up so much in college.

Exactly. It baffles me that anyone can make such a momentous decision so young. When I was 18, I lacked the capacity to even begin thinking about committing myself to a program like that. In fact, I was "positive" that I wanted to go into electrical engineering... two years later I became a math major... two years after that I became pre-med.

I'm not saying it isn't possible to make a career decision at 18 and stick to it, but I had a lot of maturing to do before I could iron out what I really wanted to do with my life. Props to anybody that is mature and experienced enough to make a coherent decision that young.

 

[stephenw]

I know there have been some people who successfully complete the 7 year programs, but I also know people who completed undergrad in 3 years and then went to medical school successfully. My view is that most of the 7 year programs are designed to attract top students who likely would go to even better schools if they went the traditional route. Yes, it is an advantage to get accepted right out of high school. However, if you aren't able to get the grades going the traditional route, you likely will struggle in the 7 year program as well.

There are a few more views on the programs here

 

[Renova]

how does uic's bac/md (gppa) program rank in terms of quality and prestige? is it a program worth considering?

It's certainly not a bad deal if you're absolutely certain you want to go into medicine...in-state tuition is cheap, and UIC has an decent enough medical school.

That said, I'm not exactly sure how a 17 year old with virtually no real medical experience (and most applicants don't) can commit to a career in this field. The kids who get into GPPA are basically Ivy/near Ivy caliber applicants who end up going to a rather lousy undergrad. If you decide that a career in medicine isn't for you, unfortunately you're screwed because you're stuck with an undergrad degree that's far below your potential.

I actually got in and turned it down precisely for that reason. Decided to go to an Ivy undergrad, and ended up going to med school anyways...so I really have no regrets about turning it down. But again, if you're 100% certain that there's no chance you'll change your mind, then maybe it'll be a better fit for you.

 

[cheetamorf]

I am currently a member of a BA/MD program, however mine is 8 years and it is non binding, which means I can go to a different med school, or could opt out of the program and decide not to do medicine at all. I would seriously recommend these types of programs. Basically you get a guaranteed acceptance (I still had to take the MCAT and get a 3.3 overall & in the sciences). Right now I'm applying to other schools, but only to keep my options open. Either way, its fantastic, because i dont have to stress out or apply to safety schools because i'm already accepted at usc. One thing to make sure though, make sure you think you can live in the place for the entire program. If you think your gonna want to change locations after four years, it may not be worth it.

 

[stinovic]

I too am in a 6 year combined program; however when its all said and done it'll be 7 years total becuase I transfered in the program after a year of undergrad. I don't necessarily regret my decision to go this route (after one year of college I was absolutely sure medicine was for me) but I do find myself wondering where I would be now. I'm in my last year of the program and applying for IM residency programs and finding out that my options for programs are very very limited. I.E. its virtually impossible to get into first tier schools. My feeling is that these top tier schools don't want to risk tainting or comprimising their prestige by accepting non-traditional students from combined programs. Definately something I hadn't thought about prior to transfering. I've also heard that the majority of the interview is spent on you justifying your decision, talking about your school, etc., instead of talking about you, your interests and goals. Food for thought.

 

[shindotp]

Thanks for the responses.

Yes, I am as sure as one can be, at least at this point, that I want to be a doctor. I have an excellent GPA and SAT scores and really enjoy all of the sciences.

The programs that I have checked out so far do offer considerable flexibility as long as one maintains the required minimum GPA which ranges from 3.3 to 3.5. After talking to several students who are now in med school after enrolling in these programs, they are almost unanimous that the lack of stress - during their undergrad years - has enabled them to pursue avenues and courses that they might not have been able to do had they gone the conventional route through med school. They tell me that if I am able to get into a decent program, going the combined route is really a no-brainer assuming that I am sure that I want to become a doctor.

I posted on this forum because I was wanting to get the opinions of others who may have considered this option and ruled it out. So your responses have certainly been helpful.

I would welcome the input of others who looked into this option. I'd be especially interested in hearing from anyone who went into a combined program and regretted the decision - and who if they had the chance again, would opt to go the conventional route.

I highly agree with these people. BA/MD is the way to go.