COMLEX PE Taken off NBOME Page?

[12jas]

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But how

Wish I had a better answer. I think it needs to start with the student leadership being adamant about change. The problem I see is the people in charge are those who benefit from the PE exam. Also, the student leadership (at least at my school) just suck up to the powers at be. Their dream job is to be that person at the NBOME or national level that collects a check from student's pockets.

Edit: I also wish the schools/ and or COCA would get involved but they are even less likely to help.

Higher education is the scam of our generation. Hence the student loan crisis.

 

[mathnerd88]

Like many others have said previously, I will reiterate: either abolish the exam for this cycle, or make it a later requirement. As it stands now, most people will not even have their scores before submitting. Making it a later requirement ensures the testing bodies still get their money while avoiding the hassle of rescheduling thousands of students.

Doing so also requires the use of lawyers which amounts to a lot of $$$. You'll need approval of the accrediting body for ALL states. Do you realize what COCA, residency programs, AND what state medical board licensing requires in order for you to obtain a license to practice as a resident?

I'm going through the process now and there's a lot involved.

If you push the PE exam back, you're going to also affect not only the current M3's, but also the current M2's.

 

[sunshinefl]

Have you checked in the past year how many open spots were in Dec 2019 and Jan 2020? I can’t imagine that all of it were full this past year.

Like I said, there’s probably a fix and contingencies will be made such as offering more dates.

Dude, there are zero open spots in December 2020, and January results aren’t available until after rank lists are due and you would go unmatched under normal circumstances. Something’s gotta give.

 

[mathnerd88]

Dude, there are zero open spots in December 2020, and January results aren’t available until after rank lists are due and you would go unmatched under normal circumstances. Something’s gotta give.

I'm not suggesting there should be no changes. I'm just merely offering an easy solution which would make everyone's lives easier.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Have you checked in the past year how many open spots were in Dec 2019 and Jan 2020? I can’t imagine that all of it were full this past year.

Like I said, there’s probably a fix and contingencies will be made such as offering more dates.

Lol ok, you can keep ignoring the fact that thousands of medical students are ALREADY affected and that it is almost to the point of impossibility creating enough dates to get them all tested in time for RANK LISTS let alone residency applications. This is assuming testing gets to resume in June, which at this point is looking like nothing but a pipe dream.

Doing so also requires the use of lawyers which amounts to a lot of $$$. You'll need approval of the accrediting body for ALL states. Do you realize what COCA, residency programs, AND what state medical board licensing requires in order for you to obtain a license to practice as a resident?

No it doesn't. Step 2 CS/Level 2 PE are NOT licensing requirements. You don't actually need to take them to get a license. The little trick the NBME (and subsequently the NBOME) did was that instead of having to draft new laws with CS/PE included, they made PE/CS a requirement for taking Step/Level 3. The laws, as written, typically have verbiage to the point that you need to pass the COMLEX/USMLE series to get a license, so if you can't take Step/Level 3 then you can't get a license. Nice little loophole these organizations found. It would actually be really easy for the NBME/NBOME/LCME/COCA to waive the PE/CS graduation requirement and needing to pass requirement for Step/Level 3 and either turn it into a test you simply need to pass by the end of intern year like Step/Level 3 or to even get rid of it completely and have a one year embargo on the reqs to take it.

If you push the PE exam back, you're going to also affect not only the current M3's, but also the current M2's.

Exactly.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I'm just merely offering an easy solution which would make everyone's lives easier.

But it's not even a solution. It literally doesn't work with the numbers as they currently are, we aren't even projecting to what "could" happen. It's pretty obvious you actually haven't looked at the numbers involved with this.

 

[mathnerd88]

No it doesn't. Step 2 CS/Level 2 PE are NOT licensing requirements. You don't actually need to take them to get a license. The little trick the NBME (and subsequently the NBOME) did was that instead of having to draft new laws with CS/PE included, they made PE/CS a requirement for taking Step/Level 3. The laws, as written, typically have verbiage to the point that you need to pass the COMLEX/USMLE series to get a license, so if you can't take Step/Level 3 then you can't get a license. Nice little loophole these organizations found. It would actually be really easy for the NBME/NBOME/LCME/COCA to waive the PE/CS graduation requirement and needing to pass requirement for Step/Level 3 and either turn it into a test you simply need to pass by the end of intern year like Step/Level 3 or to even get rid of it completely and have a one year embargo on the reqs to take it.

Interesting. Thanks for the info. Let's see what they all come up with as the solution.

 

[Splenda88]

Don't states require PE/CS to get a license?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Don't states require PE/CS to get a license?

As it's been explained to me by people more involved in this than I am, no. They typically require the USMLE or COMLEX series to be passed to get a license. The NBME and NBOME functionally made them required to get a license by making them required to be able to sit for Step/Level 3.

Remember these tests didn't exist until 2003. States didn't go through the hassle of rewriting laws that included CS/PE explicitly.

 

[Splenda88]

As it's been explained to me by people more involved in this than I am, no. They typically require the USMLE or COMLEX series to be passed to get a license. The NBME and NBOME functionally made them required to get a license by making them required to be able to sit for Step/Level 3.

Remember these tests didn't exist until 2003. States didn't go through the hassle of rewriting laws that included CS/PE explicitly.

You only need to graduate to be eligible for step3... I actually attended a school that does not require CS for graduation. I guess if residency did not require it for ranking, I could have become a licensed doc w/o taking step 2 CS

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

You only need to graduate to be eligible for step3... I actually attended a school that does not require CS for graduation. I guess if residency did not require it for ranking, I could have become a licensed doc w/o taking step 2 CS

Not true. It's literally on the USMLE website that you need to pass CS in order to sit for Step 3

Bulletin of Information | Eligibility

View the Bulletin of Information section on eligibility for info on who is eligible to take the USMLE Steps, change in eligibility status, and more.

www.usmle.org

 

[Splenda88]

Not true. It's literally on the USMLE website that you need to pass CS in order to sit for Step 3

Bulletin of Information | Eligibility

View the Bulletin of Information section on eligibility for info on who is eligible to take the USMLE Steps, change in eligibility status, and more.

www.usmle.org

This is new when the instituted the P/F policy for step1... But before that, you only needed to graduate from med school to be eligible for step3...

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

This is new when the instituted the P/F policy for step1... But before that, you only needed to graduate from med school to be eligible for step3...

All I know is CS has never been a specific licensing requirement. You just had to have completed the series, so once they made it part of the series I guess in a round about way that makes it a licensing "requirement" but it still doesn't change the fact it would actually be pretty easy to eliminate without needing to change any current laws regarding licensure.

 

[Splenda88]

All I know is CS has never been a specific licensing requirement. You just had to have completed the series, so once they made it part of the series I guess in a round about way that makes it a licensing "requirement" but it still doesn't change the fact it would actually be pretty easy to eliminate without needing to change any current laws regarding licensure.

You are probably correct... Anyway, CS/PE must go...

 

[Scrubs101]

If someone wants to turn the two current threads on PE/CS into persuasive essay format and start a gofundme for lawyers ill happily donate

 

[mathnerd88]

Someone in the other thread posted this. Let's wait and see.

posting on a throwaway account - I recently failed the PE. I used the Kauffman videos, practiced multiple cases with classmates and wrote a bunch of timed notes. Wound up with a fail due to data gathering. Board scores, clerkship grades, OSCE/SP encounters were all pretty solid. I actually thought the exam went fairly well. I thought most of the cases were straightforward and there were only one or two I didn't think went well. If I had to guess, I think some of my physical exam skills were rusty and awkward (ophthalmoscope) and I didn't do a great job with asking/documenting ROS. Never in a million years did I think these mistakes would add up to a fail. It sucks.

In regard to the lack of open test dates, the NBOME specifically holds a few dates for repeat test takers. I was able to nab an August spot. There are quite a few June/Sept/Oct dates. I imagine these will open up to you all soon, so keep checking. Also feel free to post here or DM me if you have any advice on a retake. To anyone else going through this - hang in there. We'll get through this.

 

[mathnerd88]

But it's not even a solution. It literally doesn't work with the numbers as they currently are, we aren't even projecting to what "could" happen. It's pretty obvious you actually haven't looked at the numbers involved with this.

Also, if you read the NBOME Update from 4/8 posted yesterday:

COMLEX USA Level 2-PE — NBOME

www.nbome.org

"The health and safety of our staff and candidates is of utmost importance to the NBOME. With this in mind and in order to carry out our mission of protecting the public, NBOME has extended our exam hiatus through May 31 and hope to resume testing on Monday, June 1. We apologize for the inconvenience this creates but ask for your understanding during this time of national emergency and uncertainty.

Our portal is open to reschedule exams and the score release dates are unchanged for exams taken from June 1 onward. The NBOME is very aware of the need to have Level 2-PE results in a timely manner for rotation, residency application, and graduation requirements. We are committed to assisting students as much as possible during this challenging time.

Once we return to normal operations, we will add exam sessions in an effort to provide as much opportunity to access the exam. We continue to monitor the situation daily and are looking to make informed decisions based on how the pandemic unfolds. Thank you for your understanding during this stressful time."


I just want to add that people shouldn't be so quick to dismiss others. @bigindian4891 @sunshinefl

 

[sunshinefl]

Also, if you read the NBOME Update from 4/8 posted yesterday:

COMLEX USA Level 2-PE — NBOME

www.nbome.org

"The health and safety of our staff and candidates is of utmost importance to the NBOME. With this in mind and in order to carry out our mission of protecting the public, NBOME has extended our exam hiatus through May 31 and hope to resume testing on Monday, June 1. We apologize for the inconvenience this creates but ask for your understanding during this time of national emergency and uncertainty.

Our portal is open to reschedule exams and the score release dates are unchanged for exams taken from June 1 onward. The NBOME is very aware of the need to have Level 2-PE results in a timely manner for rotation, residency application, and graduation requirements. We are committed to assisting students as much as possible during this challenging time.

Once we return to normal operations, we will add exam sessions in an effort to provide as much opportunity to access the exam. We continue to monitor the situation daily and are looking to make informed decisions based on how the pandemic unfolds. Thank you for your understanding during this stressful time."


I just want to add that people shouldn't be so quick to dismiss others. @bigindian4891 @sunshinefl

Yes I’ve read that 18 times. And I would just like to scream at them as they could relieve 3826278 tons of anxiety by making more dates or decisions now. It is completely unreasonable to leave someone with an April date without any spot. And they keep talking as though the stress in this “stressful time” is theirs!!! No, it’s ours!! And they should be understanding. They (COCA/NBOME/Schools/Residencies) can not require a test that they (NBOME) can not even provide!!!!!

 

[mathnerd88]

Yes I’ve read that 18 times. And I would just like to scream at them as they could relieve 3826278 tons of anxiety by making more dates or decisions now. It is completely unreasonable to leave someone with an April date without any spot. And they keep talking as though the stress in this “stressful time” is theirs!!! No, it’s ours!! And they should be understanding. They (COCA/NBOME/Schools/Residencies) can not require a test that they (NBOME) can not even provide!!!!!

I understand, I can't imagine the stress all the third years are going through now. I've been talking to many third years at my school and they're all expressing frustration towards everything.

The unknown is scary, but just trust that everyone is doing their best to come up with solutions and changes during this time. As a fourth year, I was also worried that I would not be able to graduate and enter residency because I still had some rotations to complete. Everyone's affected by this, third years and fourth years, but believe me solutions are being developed and implemented to mitigate the damage. It may not be a perfect solution, but it's the best one they've got for now.

I believe that the majority of residency programs will most likely waive that requirement for PE before interview.

 

[Splenda88]

If someone wants to turn the two current threads on PE/CS into persuasive essay format and start a gofundme for lawyers ill happily donate

It would be nice if someone does that...Even if I am done taking these exams, I will be happy to donate a couple of hundreds.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Also, if you read the NBOME Update from 4/8 posted yesterday:

COMLEX USA Level 2-PE — NBOME

www.nbome.org

"The health and safety of our staff and candidates is of utmost importance to the NBOME. With this in mind and in order to carry out our mission of protecting the public, NBOME has extended our exam hiatus through May 31 and hope to resume testing on Monday, June 1. We apologize for the inconvenience this creates but ask for your understanding during this time of national emergency and uncertainty.

Our portal is open to reschedule exams and the score release dates are unchanged for exams taken from June 1 onward. The NBOME is very aware of the need to have Level 2-PE results in a timely manner for rotation, residency application, and graduation requirements. We are committed to assisting students as much as possible during this challenging time.

Once we return to normal operations, we will add exam sessions in an effort to provide as much opportunity to access the exam. We continue to monitor the situation daily and are looking to make informed decisions based on how the pandemic unfolds. Thank you for your understanding during this stressful time."


I just want to add that people shouldn't be so quick to dismiss others. @bigindian4891 @sunshinefl

Yes the email I received had that included in it. I'm not seeing your point. To get everyone's scores back by ERAS, even if ERAS is delayed a month, they will need to have all students tested by SEPTEMBER........ it clearly states on their website it takes 8-10 weeks to get the score back and they also clearly state in their email that the time frame to get scores back will NOT be shortened.

Do the math. Even if they can actually start testing again on June 1 (significant chance this doesn't happen) you're literally talking about almost 7000 students that need to take PE in roughly a 3 month period.... it's just not going to happen.

This isn't even getting into the problems facing CS which are even greater as they test foreigners, IMG's, etc.

The point: something has to give, and "opening more dates" isn't going to be what solves the problem.

 

[mathnerd88]

Yes the email I received had that included in it. I'm not seeing your point. To get everyone's scores back by ERAS, even if ERAS is delayed a month, they will need to have all students tested by SEPTEMBER........ it clearly states on their website it takes 8-10 weeks to get the score back and they also clearly state in their email that the time frame to get scores back will NOT be shortened.

Do the math. Even if they can actually start testing again on June 1 (significant chance this doesn't happen) you're literally talking about almost 7000 students that need to take PE in roughly a 3 month period.... it's just not going to happen.

This isn't even getting into the problems facing CS which are even greater as they test foreigners, IMG's, etc.

The point: something has to give, and "opening more dates" isn't going to be what solves the problem.

Perhaps you may be right. I hope things will all get sorted out and nobody gets screwed come interview time.

 

[Neopolymath]

Sorry. But that is not correct. There are a many residency programs that will not rank any student that has not passed three tests (1, 2CE, 2PE) by rank list deadline.

Have you considered the fact that *this year* there is a pandemic possibly preventing many thousands of students from having this done in time? Hence the term "likely" and the fact that I stated it as an opinion. This isn't incorrect as I didn't state anything as definite. I don't get the point of your gotcha. No kidding that programs don't rank people without passes of board exams completed during a normal year. Everyone knows that.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Sorry. But that is not correct. There are a many residency programs that will not rank any student that has not passed three tests (1, 2CE, 2PE) by rank list deadline.

Yes. And if concessions aren’t made then about a third of both the DO AND MD pool won’t be able to be ranked.

We all know what things used to be like, the current situation changes the game completely.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Disagree. NBME has 5 Step 2 CS test centers and a greater surge capacity. NBME did ~35000 Step 2 CS exams at 5 test centers in 2017-2018 while NBOME did 7474 PE exams at 2 centers in 2017-2018. I worry a lot more about the NBOME having sufficient capacity to work through the backlog compared to the NBME.

Yes and all 5 of the NBME sites are in major cities (as are the PE sites), the kinds of places that won't be opening anytime soon to large gatherings of people from all over the country. Bottom line, these tests might be the most pandemic unfriendly exams these organizations could have possibly come up with and unless concessions are made a lot of students are going to be completely hosed.

I agree that even if testing resumes on June 1 the NBOME is going to have a hard time catching up.

 

[Giovanotto]

As a rising intern, following this thread gives me so much anxiety for you guys. I really feel for you, as I know I would not be where I am today if I were in your shoes. Taking all the steps/comlex on time and passing, auditions, auditions leading to research opportunities and letter writers, networking across institutions, and interviewing (presumably) well is what got me where I am today. I can't believe some of you might not get the opportunity to show everything you've got.

Wishing you guys the best, despite the obvious crapstorm this has created.

 

[Mass Effect]

National concessions should have been made even before for my cycle when not taking the PE early would have screened some applicants out. Nobody, not even my school knew about this, and it was a 'silent change' and also program dependent. I doubt things will change for this cycle unless you're talking about thousands of applicants being affected.

And honestly, it only affected a couple of programs for me out of a hundred I applied to...not super significant, but even 3-4 programs could make a difference. It didn't matter much for me since I matched where I wanted to go, but I can imagine the stress for those who may want those programs that needed a PE score beforehand.

Are you here to stress them out more with doomsday scenarios that will never happen? Your experience is irrelevant. You went through the match on a normal year (and you should have read SDN to know that PDs have been using various metrics to weed out interviews for years, including PE scores. It's a minority of programs, but they exist).

This is not a normal year and PDs aren't stupid. At the end of the day, they want good candidates and they're not going to discount thousands of students for something that wasn't their fault. No PD is going to be sitting there expecting a PE score with this chaos going on. That's like saying no MS 3 will match next year because they didn't complete rotations this year.

 

[Mass Effect]

Sorry. But that is not correct. There are a many residency programs that will not rank any student that has not passed three tests (1, 2CE, 2PE) by rank list deadline.

Your post is irrelevant. It does NOT apply to this year, a year in which MS4s graduated early, in which MS3s left the hospitals, in which MS1s did all online learning with NO required (or even desired) attendance in class, in which MS2s were paused in dedicated forever. It's a world in which millions of people are unemployed, in which travel, in general, has slowed down tremendously to the point that some airlines may not dig their way out of this, in which states have gone on shut down and restaurants are take-out only, in which grocery stores have hours set aside for senior citizens only, in which some states already require anyone coming into the state self-quarantine for 14 days, in which states might very well be forced to shut down borders.

Given all that, you want to spread nonsense about the past to scare people?

 

[Mass Effect]

Many students will have their scores in and will be looked at as safe picks. The students who do not have the scores will be look at as less organized and not being resourceful enough to get things done in time.
The ability of NBOME vs. NBME to increase testing availability for PE/CS will be critical this year.

You're just fear-mongering. This is absolutely, positively NOT true this year.

 

[Mass Effect]

Stop hijacking this thread. There are plenty of other threads for you to tout your views on work hours. This is not about that. The current MS3s deserve a thread to vent their frustration without hijack.

 

[Chibucks15]

Incorrect. You made the argument about the compassionate nature of PDs regarding students not having scores this year. I used facts to respond and point out that the compassionate nature of many PDs is debatable.
The only evidence you have that PDs will generally forgive a lack of scores this year is that YOU say they will.
There is no survey or real evidence to back that up.

Why should I be penalized for “not planning things out” or whatever you said, if my testing dates that I’ve had for months get cancelled by a once in a lifetime global pandemic? That’s where you lose me.

This is going to be a different year and even if they make more testing dates the amount of people already affected will push the actual receiving of scores way past ROL due date. I mean come on sure in a normal year you’re right but there just isn’t any way this is gonna be treated like a normal year.
Programs are considering zoom interviews and cancelling aways. It’s already different

 

[mathnerd88]

Everyone is just arguing over scenarios that may or may not happen. There's two schools of thought here, and either one may work. In my opinion, I agree with jkdoctor that easiest solution is to work through backlog, but other people here don't, which is fine. I also agree with Mass Effect, that PD's are generally reasonable and understanding and will probably make changes in how they rank this year. Either way, the end result is that the PE/CS still needs to taken at some point later.

People should just drop it and see what happens. I'm willing to bet there's a solution that will satisfy 99% of people. Most importantly, everyone stop freaking out here. Every medical student AND physician is going through this tough time. Some of my classmates are starting residency early in about two weeks in those affected hotspots.

Instead of being on here arguing about different scenarios and wasting time, study for Level 2 CE/Step 2 CK/ shelf. That score will probably be even more important now and a bigger differentiator since some core rotations are now P/F with no preceptor comments on the MSPE. With virtually every M3 at home now, I'm willing to bet all shelf exams and/or board exam scores will increase.

I'm M4 right now, so I have more time to waste and I don't mind spending it on SDN. I never went back to SDN from middle of first year until after Match Day.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I'm M4 right now, so I have more time to waste and I don't mind spending it on SDN. I never went back to SDN from middle of first year until after Match Day.

Good for you?

 

[mathnerd88]

Good for you?

Just saying that spelling out doom and gloom and hypotheticals and being on sdn didn’t help me at all, and I can imagine this for the vast majority of medical students. Good luck man. You will be fine. I was in the same boat of the unknown when it came to the merger about this time last year. Focus on what you can get done and kill the boards.

 

[sunshinefl]

Disagree. PDs have enough applicants to choose from that they will be able to pick from many candidates with passing PE/CS scores.
The majority of PDs now look at passing Step 2 CS before ranking a student per the Program Director Survey.
"In most cases, program directors are interested in whether the student has passed Step 1 and Step 2 CK and CS and also prefer to have the scores prior to including the student in their residency rank order list."

USMLE Importance of Board Scores - UWSOM Intranet

Publishing Page Content In Right Rail Publishing Page Content In Right Rail

education.uwmedicine.org

Many students will have their scores in and will be looked at as safe picks. The students who do not have the scores will be look at as less organized and not being resourceful enough to get things done in time.
The ability of NBOME vs. NBME to increase testing availability for PE/CS will be critical this year.

How is having an April 2020 PE date scheduled since August of 2019 disorganized? How is having that date cancelled and moving it later 2 other times that also got cancelled less resourceful? How is checking the available dates compulsively 50 times a day since the pandemic began not resourceful? What organizational and resourcefulness skills am I supposed to use to take an exam without a single spot available?

 

[sunshinefl]

I understand what you are saying. However, many PDs are still going to go with safe choices on their rank list. If the NBOME does not step up to the plate and fix the backlog, then I am afraid many students could be disadvantaged. I think there needs to be maximum pressure on the NBOME to clear the backlog.

Yes I agree that we will be disadvantaged compared to *safer* choices that have a PE result, even if it’s not “required” to be ranked this year. I just disagree that it reflects on my organization and resourcefulness. I have already pleaded with NBOME *and* my school to put pressure on NBOME.

 

[V5RED]

I understand what you are saying. However, many PDs are still going to go with safe choices on their rank list. If the NBOME does not step up to the plate and fix the backlog, then I am afraid many students could be disadvantaged. I think there needs to be maximum pressure on the NBOME to clear the backlog.

I would bet quite a lot that you are not a PD and have no insight into how "many PDs" will respond to this crisis. Your replies have ranged from silly to absurd.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I understand what you are saying. However, many PDs are still going to go with safe choices on their rank list. If the NBOME does not step up to the plate and fix the backlog, then I am afraid many students could be disadvantaged. I think there needs to be maximum pressure on the NBOME to clear the backlog.

You are greatly underestimating how many MDs will be affected by this. This is not just an NBOME issue. According to the numbers you cited above CS was administered 2x more often PER SITE compared to the PE if administrations are divided equally among all testing sites.

Many students won’t simply be disadvantaged, they won’t even be eligible to match if nothing changes. My current date wouldn’t give me a score until after rank lists are due.

Just saying that spelling out doom and gloom and hypotheticals and being on sdn didn’t help me at all, and I can imagine this for the vast majority of medical students. Good luck man. You will be fine. I was in the same boat of the unknown when it came to the merger about this time last year. Focus on what you can get done and kill the boards.

This isn’t a doom and gloom hypothetical, this is reality as it is currently happening. The only doom and gloom being thrown around is the idea that PDs will just go business as usual and screen out the thousands of students that won’t have a PE/CS score by residency apps. My studying and board scores are just fine, I don’t need an M4 telling me to get off SDN and study.

 

[fldoctorgirl]

I do not see how pretending PDs will uniformly bend to what medical students want is helpful.

Your posts are just absurd. There isn't a single medical student who "wants" any of this to be happening. We're in April and PEs have been cancelled for what, a month now? How many people do you know who take the PE/CS before March of M3? You sound delusional.

 

[fldoctorgirl]

Your post is absurd imo. I never stated medical students "wanted" this to happen. Why are you so sure that the NBOME will not try hard to schedule many extra dates to make up for the cancelled PE's?

Uh...." I do not see how pretending PDs will uniformly bend to what medical students want is helpful". That's a quote from your last post.

I'm not arguing the point of whether or not they add more dates. I hope they do. But you coming into this thread where people are stressed out and telling them that PDs aren't going to give a crap about the situation and that they're the irresponsible ones for not getting the exam done in time is insane.

 

[fldoctorgirl]

No. I did not say the students were irresponsible. Go back and read again please. I said that PDs are going to look at who has everything done and who does not have everything done. Many PDs know very little about the details of COMLEX scores and the COMLEX PE.

Here is a nice example of hype:
MONDAY, DEC. 3, 2018
The American Medical Association’s House of Delegates recently voted unanimously to approve a resolution promoting equal acceptance of the COMLEX and USMLE exams by all U.S. residency programs. The resolution calls for the AMA to work with appropriate stakeholders to educate residency program directors on using and interpreting COMLEX scores.

AMA officially recognizes COMLEX-USA as equivalent to USMLE

AMA HOD resolution calls for the association to help educate residency program directors on using and interpreting COMLEX scores.

thedo.osteopathic.org

Here is an example of reality:

• We do NOT accept COMLEX Scores in place of USMLE Scores.
• Trainees must pass USMLE Step 1, Step 2CK, and Step 2CS prior to commencing their Duke postgraduate training.

If you have any questions, please contact the residency office at (919) 684-2258.

How to Apply

How to Apply All applicants must apply through the ERAS website. We encourage applicants who are interested in the research track to select the “Psychiatry/Research” track when applying through ERAS. Applicants will also have the opportunity to express interest in the research track after...

psychiatry.duke.edu

The AMA resolution was in 2018. Show me how PDs have been compelled to accept COMLEX based on that resolution.

What are you even talking about.....this conversation has nothing to do with COMLEX and USMLE being equal....

Attaching a bunch of meaningless links to a post doesn't make you more correct.

 

[Neopolymath]

The other issue is finding the people willing to be standardized patients for this even if they can somehow magically make more dates and times to do the exam. For one that likely isn't possible given the NBOME's sheer ineptitude at running the correct number of dates in a good year. But also, how will they train these new standardized patients to make them, well, standardized? How will they count on their normal staff to all be willing to work?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Rank lists are due in February.

I know.... there are currently no more dates in the year 2020.

think the real doom and gloom I see in this thread is the idea that the NBOME will not open up many new slots to avoid having students getting scores after rank lists are due. I think the NBOME will add many slots. I hope I am not wrong.

Why are you so sure that the NBOME will not try hard to schedule many extra dates to make up for the cancelled PE's?

How many dates do you think they can even open? There are currently no dates in the year 2020, and even if they open every open date there are still only two sites. Even if ERAS gets bumped back a month then you will need to have tested by August just to have your score back before apps or September to have it back by MSPE’s going out (8-10 weeks for score report).

Do the math. That’s two months bro (max of 3), assuming they can even test on June 1, to test over 90% of students. This doesn’t even get into the logistics of testing 7 days a week, they would have to hire more graders, more actors, more proctors, etc.

Step 2 CS is even worse off.

For someone who likes to constantly post about numbers you seem to have completely ignored the math here so let’s do some: accounting for DO student growth let’s say they need to get done 7500 PE exams before residency apps go out in October (assuming ERAS gets bumped back and you don’t need a score until MSPE’s go out a month after that). To have scores in before MSPE’s go out then they will need to be tested by Aug. 31st, which is 92 days.

7500/92= ~82

82/2= 41 (2 sites)

So to fix the backlog before ERAS opening, with a bumped back ERAS date of one month, they would need to test 41 students at each site every single day after June 1.

Again, the numbers are even worse for USMLE Step 2 CS

No. I did not say the students were irresponsible. Go back and read again please. I basically said that PDs are going to look at who has everything done and who does not have everything done and may conclude that those who do not have everything done were less on top of things. Many PDs know very little about the details of COMLEX scores and the COMLEX PE. Imo, as I have stated above, the best fix is for the NBOME to aggressively schedule many new dates.

Here is a nice example of hype:
MONDAY, DEC. 3, 2018
The American Medical Association’s House of Delegates recently voted unanimously to approve a resolution promoting equal acceptance of the COMLEX and USMLE exams by all U.S. residency programs. The resolution calls for the AMA to work with appropriate stakeholders to educate residency program directors on using and interpreting COMLEX scores.

AMA officially recognizes COMLEX-USA as equivalent to USMLE

AMA HOD resolution calls for the association to help educate residency program directors on using and interpreting COMLEX scores.

thedo.osteopathic.org

Here is an example of reality:

• We do NOT accept COMLEX Scores in place of USMLE Scores.
• Trainees must pass USMLE Step 1, Step 2CK, and Step 2CS prior to commencing their Duke postgraduate training.

If you have any questions, please contact the residency office at (919) 684-2258.

How to Apply

How to Apply All applicants must apply through the ERAS website. We encourage applicants who are interested in the research track to select the “Psychiatry/Research” track when applying through ERAS. Applicants will also have the opportunity to express interest in the research track after...

psychiatry.duke.edu

The AMA resolution was in 2018. Show me how PDs have been compelled to accept COMLEX based on that resolution. Do you know many DO students that take USMLE Step 1, Step 2CK, and Step 2CS? Are you surprised that there are many FMGs but not a single DO in the Duke Psychiatry residency program?

Nice red herring.

It has to do with the fact that if the MD applicants have all their tests done and the DO students do not have all their tests done, then the PDs are not going to all magically say that they are changing their selection criteria because the NBOME is inept.

MDs won’t have all their tests. If you think the MDs will have their tests done and this will just be a DO problem you completely have your head in the sand. The MDs I know are losing their crap even more than the DOs because CS has even more logistical problems than PE.

I’m all for calling the NBOME inept, but this problem isn’t a problem unique to DOs. The NBME is floundering just as much.

 

[fldoctorgirl]

No. It has to do with the fact that if the MD applicants have all their tests done and the DO students do not have all their tests done, then the PDs are not going to all magically say that they are changing their selection criteria because the NBOME is inept.

No one has ever said that, though. This will not be an isolated DO problem. @AnatomyGrey12 did a better job at explaining it, so I won't add anything further. I'm an M2, so I have no skin in this game. I have friends who are M3s at MD schools who are worried about the exact same things as everyone here is, and telling everyone that it sucks but PDs don't care isn't constructive at all and quite frankly, makes no sense given the current situation and the reality that virtually every single applicant is being affected in some way. People aren't going to shrug their shoulders and say "sorry your April test got cancelled, and then your May retake got cancelled, and there were no more dates because they simply didn't exist, but that's on you, should've tested in February bro". It's unrealistic and harmful to all of the people going through this right now.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

The open question is will the problem be unique to DOs, will it be unique to MDs, or will it be common to both?

This isn’t even a question dude.

I do think that the CS exam has a lot of surge

Based on what? Do you have any evidence of surge capability of CS? Because I have seen absolutely zero evidence of the sort.

There are also 5 CS sites.

Right. And far more test takers. Based on the numbers you yourself quoted in this thread each CS site delivered roughly 7000 tests last year with 35,000 tests administered total. Just accounting for March and April you are already talking about roughly 1100 tests being cancelled PER SITE, so 5800 people with cancelled tests already (assuming an even spread of tests administered each month for simplicity sake).

In a traditional cycle it’s been repeated to me by M4s, and school advisement, that you need a PE score by the time MSPE’s go out to not have it affect your cycle. My date of August 31st is exactly what we are facing, and that’s assuming the rumors are true of ERAS being bumped back a month and ability to go straight to full testing capacity on June 1 (tenuous at best).

Sure, if your argument is that it’s possible to get everyone a score by the time rank lists are due then it’s probably possible, but that would still have a huge impact on everyone’s cycles (MDs included) unless PDs collectively decided that they wouldn’t use the lack of PE/CS as a factor in giving out interviews.

 

[mathnerd88]

Tbh, I agree with jkdoctor and gamerEMdoc. Keep in mind that every program has different ways in how they rank applicants and who they invite for an interview. It isn't a uniform set pattern. If they like what they see in an applicant, they will invite for interview. I know some programs that didn't require a Step 2 CS/Level 2 PE for ranking applicants.

Some places will just interview and rank applicants highly if they even speak a certain language of their patient population. I know this is true because I've interviewed at places that did exactly that.

In the end, you do the best you can, and roll the dice. It sucks that it played out this way.

 

[Chibucks15]

View attachment 302080

Common Questions | USMLE

www.usmle.org

Sounds to me like they plan a surge in testing to clear the backlog.

Yeah and the NBOME is planning the same. But planning is a hell of a lot different than having “surge capacity”.
Normally I agree with you but in this case you make no sense. Like this isn’t just somebody being irresponsible and not getting their stuff done. This is the vast majority, if not all current third year med students being behind due to factors outside of their control. Of course PDs are gonna understand that and not just screen just because you were fortunate enough to get your score in.

they would be doing themselves a massive disservice because they would miss a lot of very good residents for their programs by doing that. And even if PDs aren’t “compassionate” they definitely want to cover their own asses and get the best residents they can

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

View attachment 302080

Common Questions | USMLE

www.usmle.org

Sounds to me like they plan a surge in testing to clear the backlog.

Lmao. Ok, so I asked you for evidence for your statement that the NBME has greater surge capacity than the NBOME and you link me to a comment of theirs that is the equivalent of "we don't know what the eff to do." So the answer is no, there is no evidence that they have a way to clear backlog. The NBOME has the same statement in the email they sent me.

I agree with gamerERdoc's comments. The argument is that as things currently stand it will literally be impossible for the NBME/NBOME to get scores to 90% of applicants in time.... that's my entire point. It's like neither of you have actually run the numbers on this.

 

[mang0]

This thread is starting to get toxic....

chill out people

 

[deleted978973]

y'all should stop your petty arguing and one-upping and discuss how we can work together and use this to try to kill this worthless and unnecessary exam for good. Start writing your representatives.