Committed to Psych -- Go into MSTP at Lower School or MD at Prestigious School

[BNSN]

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I am 110% committed to psych and neuroscience and plan to become an academic psychiatrist studying the biological basis of mood disorders.

I am finishing undergrad this semester and have to pick soon where I want to go in the fall. I have three MSTP acceptances (Univ of Alabama, Northwestern, and Univ of Texas Southwestern). However, I will most likely have an MD acceptance at either Johns Hopkins or Wash U by the end of next month.

I will therefore need to pick between a Hopkins/Wash U MD or a lesser-ranked schools MSTP.

In terms of psych residency at places like MGH/Hopkins/Stanford/Columbia, which helps more -- a prestigious MD or a less-prestigious MD/PhD?

Thanks.

 

[masterofmonkeys]

For MGH and Columbia, I would say that name carries a lot of weight. I didn't even get interviews to those two schools, and the only thing I was lacking was name. That said, I don't expect my academic career to be held back too much b that fact.

On the other hand, UTSW is something of a research powerhouse in psych. So a chance to get our foot in the door early might be worth considering as well.

 

[billypilgrim37]

I don't think there is any question that, all things being equal, a program would rather have an MDPhD from Northwestern or UTSW than an MD from WashU or JHU.

I think MoM is on the mark that UTSW is the clear favorite here from a prestige/resource perspective. Northwestern, despite its name and quality of overall medical institution, has a disproportionately paltry psychiatry research faculty.

But if you've met faculty at any of those three places whose work interests you, and there's a clear track record of producing mdphds with solid research records, then you'd be much better off at any of these institutions IF the phd is something you're going to need for the future.

You either want to be an mdphd or you don't. Make that decision first, and make the institution decision second. You would be poorly served making the decision the other way around.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

I am 110% committed to psych and neuroscience and plan to become an academic psychiatrist studying the biological basis of mood disorders.

I am finishing undergrad this semester and have to pick soon where I want to go in the fall. I have three MSTP acceptances (Univ of Alabama, Northwestern, and Univ of Texas Southwestern). However, I will most likely have an MD acceptance at either Johns Hopkins or Wash U by the end of next month.

I will therefore need to pick between a Hopkins/Wash U MD or a lesser-ranked schools MSTP.

In terms of psych residency at places like MGH/Hopkins/Stanford/Columbia, which helps more -- a prestigious MD or a less-prestigious MD/PhD?

Thanks.

Even a "less prestigious" MD/PhD demonstrates a commitment to research and academia which will move you to the top of the list for residencies at these and other strong programs. You WILL match into the residency of your choice. What will matter come residency time is going to be the letters from your mentors, actual peer-reviewed publications and presentations on you CV, etc.--all which you will have a much better shot at getting in an MSTP program. These will simply completely outweigh any cachet brought by the "name" of your med school. IMHO, focusing on the "rankings" of these schools could very well lead you to make a wrong decision.

Look at the neuroscience programs of your MSTP programs and try to think about whether you can see yourself fitting in with any of the mentors offered. While Northwestern is not a psychiatry powerhouse, per se, they do have very well-respected basic neuroscience. UTSW is very well-regarded, and Alabama-Birmingham is an up-and-coming program whose new chair has a strong track record in training research-oriented psychiatrists. None of these will hurt your career at all.

One last thing--if you are truly 110% committed to the career MSTP is designed to prepare you for--and I don't say this lightly because truly, basic science and translational research is not for everybody--unless Hopkins or WashU is willing to give you a full ride, take the MSTP. THE DEBT YOU WILL INCURR GOING MD-only IS NOT WORTH THE PERCEIVED ADDED VALUE OF THE "HIGHER-RANKED" PROGRAM. Don't get me wrong--they are GREAT programs--but the others are just fine. And frankly, if you owe $150,000, your Hopkins MD isn't going to get the debt paid off any faster than a "lesser" MD. In fact, the debt may ultimately be the impetus which PREVENTS you from taking a less well-paid academic career, driving you into full time clinical practice instead.

 

[mere105]

I was in a similar situation as you about 8 years ago (higher ranked school MD or state school MD/PhD, interested in psych). I am now graduating from a 'less prestigious' medical school with my MD/PhD. Although I still have until Match Day to figure out where I'm going, I have to say that pursuing the MD/PhD track was probably one of the smartest decisions I could have made. Having the PhD opened many doors for me, as well as allowing me time to mature in my decision and develop my CV on many levels.

PM me if you have any additional questions. And congrats on your choices! 🙂

 

[strangeglove]

I am an MD-PhD who graduated from a "less prestigious" MSTP, like some of the ones you name. I am now a resident at a place "like MGH/Hopkins/Stanford/Columbia". I know for sure that the MD-PhD was a critical factor in my getting interviews to these programs. However, these weren't served to me on a plate - I published extensively in my PhD, did well on my clinical clerkships and got excellent letters from my scientific and clinical mentors. By the same token, merely obtaining an MD-PhD from Harvard or Columbia without anything to show for it will not guarantee you an interview at these places. Like OPD said - if you are truly %110 percent committed to neuroscience research, then look for a program that will offer you the opportunity to do high quality research with good mentors.

It is true to some extent that these programs do care about the name of the medical school to an extent. But this assumes that all else is equal - i.e. that they are comparing MD's to MD's with similar performance in medical school and MD-PhD's to MD-PhD's with similar qualifications in terms of research output.

 

[silas2642]

I am 110% committed to psych and neuroscience and plan to become an academic psychiatrist studying the biological basis of mood disorders.

I am finishing undergrad this semester and have to pick soon where I want to go in the fall. I have three MSTP acceptances (Univ of Alabama, Northwestern, and Univ of Texas Southwestern). However, I will most likely have an MD acceptance at either Johns Hopkins or Wash U by the end of next month.

I will therefore need to pick between a Hopkins/Wash U MD or a lesser-ranked schools MSTP.

In terms of psych residency at places like MGH/Hopkins/Stanford/Columbia, which helps more -- a prestigious MD or a less-prestigious MD/PhD?

Thanks.

Okay, so this is coming from the lowly med student, but in terms of choosing a med school, you should really, really take into consideration factors like: 1. where am I going to be happiest? and 2. cost 3. location (which kind of goes with where am I going to be happiest?)

The schools that you just listed are all excellent schools and you if you do well in med school, you're going to be set up fine to match well in to psychiatry (so I hear). Four years is a long time to be in med school, and I'm only in my second year. Trust me, you want to be in a place where you're going to be the happiest and in an environment where you're going to be the most likely to succeed. Go with your gut and unless you have rich parents, your wallet.

Ask yourself these questions: where do I want to live for the next four years? Do I want to be close to family and friends and think that being close to them would be a good thing? Do I hate my family and current friends and need to get as far away from them as humanly possible? Do I hate the cold? Do I hate the heat? How was the student body when I interviewed? How was the curriculum? Is it conducive to my style of learning? Is the faculty supportive or are they just there because they to be and really hate teaching the students? What is there to do around town when I'm not studying-- are there strip clubs, bars, cute chicks to hit on as a future doctah? Or are there just Wal-mart's with overweight people in it looking to buy Nascar crap? This all makes a difference.

 

[strangeglove]

are there strip clubs, bars, cute chicks to hit on as a future doctah? Or are there just Wal-mart's with overweight people in it looking to buy Nascar crap?

In my experience, all of these tend to co-localize; there's no shortage of strip clubs, bars and cute chicks who are willing to subjugate themselves to a future doctor in places were there are also overweight people looking to buy Nascar crap.

 

[tr]

By the same token, merely obtaining an MD-PhD from Harvard or Columbia without anything to show for it will not guarantee you an interview at these places.

Yeah it will. My PhD thesis was nothing to write home about and I still got interviews everywhere. Frankly I was shocked at how low the bar was.

Psych is just an easy match. I really would not make the decision for MD vs MD-PhD based on concerns about residency matching.

The question is, do you want to be a basic science researcher? Do you want to run a research lab? If yes, then do the MD-PhD - not for the letters or the match boost, but for the education on how to go about the business of research. If no, then do the MD. The money issue is a wash because you lose 3-5 years of earned income by doing the MD-PhD, not to mention years of your life.

 

[geripsyched]

I'm a 4th year MD/PhD student and agree that your decision should not be based on residency programs, but rather if you would enjoy getting your phd. I want to counter the lost years of life comment b/c my two phd years (and counting!) have been the best years of my life. If you're curious about everything and like setting your own schedule (i.e., being your own boss - quite different from med school), phd work is wonderful. And, unlike later in your academic career, there are relatively few pressures. In case you're interested, there are alternatives to basic science phds (e.g., epidemiology, some social sciences, and even translation research phds). Good luck! It is hard to go wrong with your options.

 

[strangeglove]

Yeah it will. My PhD thesis was nothing to write home about and I still got interviews everywhere. Frankly I was shocked at how low the bar was.

Yes, but how did you do in medical school? My point is that a PhD by itself won't make up for a lousy performance in medical school in the eyes of programs, like Columbia and Harvard, that pride themselves on their clinical training and tend not to skimp on the quality of this training for the benefit of research-oriented residents. That may not be the case at more strictly research-oriented programs like Pitt and Stanford.

 

[silas2642]

In my experience, all of these tend to co-localize; there's no shortage of strip clubs, bars and cute chicks who are willing to subjugate themselves to a future doctor in places were there are also overweight people looking to buy Nascar crap.

On this note, you should always try and get laid with a fat chick from Wal-Mart at least once... use a condom.

 

[Tradewind]

Other things being comparable (grades, clinical comments, board scores, interview day interactions, LORs), applicants are usually ranked in the following order from highest to lowest: medical students at our medical school, then MD/PhD students, then medical students at other prestigious schools, then medical students at less prestigious schools.

While an MD/PhD is very attractive, it does not guarantee a ranked to match spot, simply because there are more MD/PhDs that spots. In fact, less than a quarter of our MD/PhD applicants get one of those spots, and the rest won't get feedback until match day. That being said, many MD/PhD's probably can go to their dream schools, as they will be high enough on the lists.

I agree with previous comments about deciding whether you want to get a PhD, first. Getting a PhD primarily to get into a top ranked psychiatry program seems backwards. There are other ways to get into the program of your dreams, and given that some 30% of MD/PhD students end up dropping out of the PhD portion, I think it'd be important to know what you're getting into with a PhD.

 

[Tradewind]

Yeah it will. My PhD thesis was nothing to write home about and I still got interviews everywhere. Frankly I was shocked at how low the bar was.

Well, it's not dermatology. But we do get a lot of amazing applicants.
Getting an MD/PhD from Harvard or Columbia, even if your PhD was "nothing to write home about" should gain you interviews everywhere. That's impressive! Not only because of the name value, but because of the implied level of standard needed to complete your training. Which I suppose would depend on what your PhD is in, but nonetheless, you're a desirable item, and frankly, you would've likely received interview invitations to all programs in dermatology, neurosurgery or any other specialty... (As long as the rest of the application was at least average...)

OTOH, I don't think an MD/PhD from Harvard or Columbia would necessarily guarantee putting you at the very top of each rank list, unless the rest of your application and your interviews were solid and you were very well liked by programs on interviews. That being said, I imagine you probably got your first choice at a competitive residency.

Bottom line: Interviewing at and matching at are two different things.

 

[BNSN]

Wow! I did not expect such thoughtful and copious feedback! Thank you. I read everyone's post and appreciate all the comments.

First, I appreciate the advice regarding the PhD. I realize it may have seemed like I just wanted a PhD to guarantee a prestigious Psych residency, but that is completely not the case. I am 110% dedicated to research and I intend to make it the major component of my career. I simply wanted to know where prestige VS PhD fell in terms of residency apps. If I had no chance of transferring into the MSTP at Hopkins or Wash U as a first year student, I would not have even gone on the MD only interview.

OldPsychDoc,

I did not really think about the more intangible aspects of being an MSTP student, such as letters. Thanks for pointing it out.

Your points about UAB's strength are spot on. Dr. Meador-Woodruff is a well-regarded molecular psychiatrist, and Northwestern has recruited Dr. Csernasky (sp?) to head their Psych department, who is also a well-regarded biological psychiatrist. So both UAB and Northwestern are growing with Psych. And, of course, UTSW is already a molecular psych leader.

Strangelove,

Yes, but how did you do in medical school? My point is that a PhD by itself won't make up for a lousy performance in medical school in the eyes of programs, like Columbia and Harvard, that pride themselves on their clinical training and tend not to skimp on the quality of this training for the benefit of research-oriented residents. That may not be the case at more strictly research-oriented programs like Pitt and Stanford.

Hmm. Could you elaborate? I am interested in the dichotomy between research-oriented programs and clinically-oriented psychiatry progtams. Where do Hopkins, Michigan, and Mayo fall on that spectrum? Thanks.

I am an MD-PhD who graduated from a "less prestigious" MSTP, like some of the ones you name. I am now a resident at a place "like MGH/Hopkins/Stanford/Columbia". I know for sure that the MD-PhD was a critical factor in my getting interviews to these programs. However, these weren't served to me on a plate - I published extensively in my PhD, did well on my clinical clerkships and got excellent letters from my scientific and clinical mentors.

Thanks for the tip! I appreciate knowing that someone was in the position I might be in soon 🙂

 

[Doctor&Geek]

Show me the data!

Data may be skewed by small sample sizes.

Overall MSTP Psych Matches 2004 - 2008 n = 79

Chicago
Columbia (9)
Cornell (9)
Duke (2)
Einstein
Emory (2)
McGill
MGH (8)
Michigan (3)
Mt Sinai
NYU (2)
Penn
Pitt (2)
Stanford (3)
U of Washington (3)
UAB
UCDavis
UCLA (6)
UCSD (3)
UCSF (8)
UTSW (2)
WashU
Wisconsin (3)
Yale (6)

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UAB MSTP Psych Matches 2004 - 2008
Michigan, UAB

Northwestern MSTP Psych Matches 2004 - 2008
None

UTSW MSTP Psych Matches 2004 - 2008
McGill

WashU MSTP Psych Matches 2004 - 2008
MGH, WashU, Yale

Johns Hopkins MSTP Psych Matches 2004 - 2008
None

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WashU straight MD Psych Matches

2008
Harvard Longwood
University of Pennsylvania

2007
WashU/BJH 2
UCSF
Stanford 2
Illinois Chicago

2006
UCSD
Duke
UCLA
Penn
WashU

Johns Hopkins straight MD Psych Matches

2008
Johns Hopkins Hosp (2)
UCSD
UCLA Semel Inst for Neuroscience
University of Hawaii

2007
UC San Francisco
Johns Hopkins Hosp (4)
Creighton-Nebraska Hlth Fnd
Hosp of the Univ of PA
UPMC Medical Education Prog

2006
Mass General (3)
Penn
Hopkins


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