Community academic programs

[MrBigLips]

I've tried doing a search of community based academic programs and here's what I've come up with so far (in no particular order):

1) Iowa Methodist
2) Baylor
3) Washington Health Center
4) Scott & White
5) Fairfax Inova
6) Kansas Wichita


I'm a US IMG and I'm starting to come to terms with the fact that getting a categorical position in GS at a University program is going to be pretty hard. Not to say that I won't try, but I'd like to keep my chances of matching a cat as high as possible. I'd like to go into the academic sector simply because I love teaching. Possibly taking a year off for research is something I wouldn't mind doing either. Does anyone know of any other community based academic programs other than the ones I mentioned? Ones that are IMG friendly would be an extra plus. They don't have to be crazy academic, just enough to land me a noncompetitive fellowship and a job as a teacher afterwards.

As always, thanks in advance.

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[Winged Scapula]

I don't have any comments about the programs you've listed but wanted to comment on a few things you said above:

1) you don't need to train at a university program to teach after residency
2) you don't need to work at a university program to teach after residency
3) by definition, all programs that have residency programs are "academic"
4) what you are referring to are community programs; there are university, university affiliated and community
5) it probably doesn't matter which one you go to for a non-competitive fellowship
6) most people take 2 years off for research, not just 1 year
7) taking time off during training at a community program can be difficult; its not built into their schedule (ie, who will be covering your services and the call schedule while you are doing research?) and they don't generally have funded labs
8) you don't have to do research during residency to get an academic job after residency
9) there are tons more community programs than what you've listed

 

[SLUser11]

6) Kansas Wichita


I'm a US IMG and I'm starting to come to terms with the fact that getting a categorical position in GS at a University program is going to be pretty hard. s always, thanks in advance.

At KU- Wichita, we've only taken one IMG in the history of the program. It was 11 years ago, and the resident had the same last name as our previous chairman and residency founder. Several of the academic programs I've been involved with, including SLU and Nebraska, had several IMGs.

I don't mean to write this to dissuade you, but only to point out that there will be plenty of university-affiliated community programs that are actually much harder to get into than an average academic program.

As WS pointed out, things are much less black and white than what we are told as medical students (as far as academic and community settings and what that means for your career).

 

[MrBigLips]

1) you don't need to train at a university program to teach after residency
2) you don't need to work at a university program to teach after residency
3) by definition, all programs that have residency programs are "academic"
4) what you are referring to are community programs; there are university, university affiliated and community
5) it probably doesn't matter which one you go to for a non-competitive fellowship
6) most people take 2 years off for research, not just 1 year
7) taking time off during training at a community program can be difficult; its not built into their schedule (ie, who will be covering your services and the call schedule while you are doing research?) and they don't generally have funded labs
8) you don't have to do research during residency to get an academic job after residency
9) there are tons more community programs than what you've listed

Thanks a lot WS. There was a lot of confusion on my end and now, not so much.

At KU- Wichita, we've only taken one IMG in the history of the program. It was 11 years ago, and the resident had the same last name as our previous chairman and residency founder. Several of the academic programs I've been involved with, including SLU and Nebraska, had several IMGs.

Wow, seriously? Well thanks for the heads up. That's one less place to apply.

I don't mean to write this to dissuade you, but only to point out that there will be plenty of university-affiliated community programs that are actually much harder to get into than an average academic program.

Really? I was under the assumption that all academic programs (with very few exceptions) were harder to get into than university affiliated programs. So now, my question is which ones are those?

They're obviously not the big names (Hopkins, MGH, Brig & Women's[], Cornell, Harvard, Vanderbilt, Yale, Columbia, Mayo, Emory, UPenn, UTSW, etc).

 

[SLUser11]

Really? I was under the assumption that all academic programs (with very few exceptions) were harder to get into than university affiliated programs. So now, my question is which ones are those?

That is a common and extremely inaccurate assumption...but it's not your fault. We are all told this as med students, and the thought is kept alive here on SDN as well.

As far as which places to apply, there are so many academic institutions that I couldn't possibly give you a helpful list. There may be some previous threads identifying "IMG-friendly" programs, but the general trend is that these programs will be a more difficult road, as places that take IMGs typically do it because they can't get US Allo grads.

I think the best thing to do is apply widely. If you get an interview, that usually means that they are considering you.

You should also do your research. Look at program websites, the acs website, etc and see if any current residents are IMGs.

This website is somewhat inaccurate but does list % IMG:

www.facs.org/residencysearch/search/search.html

 

[Winged Scapula]

Thanks a lot WS. There was a lot of confusion on my end and now, not so much.

You're welcome.

Really? I was under the assumption that all academic programs (with very few exceptions) were harder to get into than university affiliated programs. So now, my question is which ones are those?

They're obviously not the big names (Hopkins, MGH, Brig & Women's[], Cornell, Harvard, Vanderbilt, Yale, Columbia, Mayo, Emory, UPenn, UTSW, etc).

As SLUser notes, this is a common misconception. One I used to believe.

Interestingly, Mayo is not actually a university program but rather a community one, but as you can see, its generally considered harder to get into as compared to Podunk U Medical College.

There are several community programs which are competitive - Santa Barbara Cottage, Virginia Mason, etc.

 

[MrBigLips]

I think the best thing to do is apply widely. If you get an interview, that usually means that they are considering you.

You should also do your research. Look at program websites, the acs website, etc and see if any current residents are IMGs.

This website is somewhat inaccurate but does list % IMG:

www.facs.org/residencysearch/search/search.html

I was thinking to apply to something like 60-70 programs at least. That should be wide enough correct?

A common theme I am seeing in both of your lists (academic and community) is that you are listing the top-of-the-top in both fields - MGH, etc for academic and Virginia Mason, Iowa Methodist, etc for community.

I had no idea that Iowa Methodist was a top program. I mentioned all the above programs because those were the only ones I knew (typically, one only hears about the big names). But thanks for your guys' help. I think I have somewhat of an idea now of what this whole match process is all about.

 

[SLUser11]

I was thinking to apply to something like 60-70 programs at least. That should be wide enough correct?

I would go even wider. 100 seems like a good number to me. It's important to cast a large, educated net. Unfortunately, even if you are very good clinically and have good board scores, you'll still get the cold shoulder from most places.

It would be nice for IMGs currently training in general surgery to create a list of places that they received invites to, assuming that makes those programs at least partially "IMG-friendly." I would then make sure to include almost every one of those programs in my application.

Anyway, if you are still pre-clinical at this point, I wouldn't worry about these details yet. I would just focus on doing well in school, scoring well on your tests, and then going into rotations with an open mind, i.e. approaching every rotation like it could be your future career choice.

To give you some ease of mind, I think if you are intelligent, likeable, and hard working, you can find a spot in surgery and get a good education....but, like med school, your situation will likely be less than ideal, and you'll have to make some compromises.

It's very common for type A personalities, especially in medicine, to plan excessively ahead. While I agree that it's important to be prepared, it can sometimes distract you from the task at hand, and blind you to other opportunities.

 

[MrBigLips]

I would go even wider. 100 seems like a good number to me. It's important to cast a large, educated net. Unfortunately, even if you are very good clinically and have good board scores, you'll still get the cold shoulder from most places.

Alright. I think there's something like 220 some surgery programs so I suppose applying to around half should secure at least some interviews. Thanks a lot for the rough estimate and the advice overall in generall.

It would be nice for IMGs currently training in general surgery to create a list of places that they received invites to, assuming that makes those programs at least partially "IMG-friendly." I would then make sure to include almost every one of those programs in my application.

You're absolutely right. I hope some IMG's that have matched read this message and contribute. Even just the names of IMG friendly programs is very helpful.

Anyway, if you are still pre-clinical at this point, I wouldn't worry about these details yet.

It's very common for type A personalities, especially in medicine, to plan excessively ahead.

Actually, I graduated med school about 2 months ago. I've been doing flood relief work in Pakistan and working at my hospital as a BCS/ATLS/clerkship procedures teacher for the senior med students. I'm studying for the boards in the mean time and plan to apply for the 2012 match. I've done 4 USCE's with great LOR's one of which was a sub I at UTMB MD Anderson and graduated with the highest surgery clerkship score in my graduating class. I'm hoping that these credentials along with great board scores will get me in.

... I also hope that I don't sound like a pompous prick trying to impress SDN users. Haha. I'm just hoping you guys can offer suggestions as to how I can further improve my credentials, and ultimately my chances of matching in GS.

Btw, I checked out that ACS site something like 2 years ago and although it looked like great information, I felt like something was a bit fishy. As in, some of the numbers sounded pretty off. I dunno, it was just a gut feeling. And hey, it's not like I know the system in and out anyways. Maybe if some other users could confirm on the accuracy of the site it'd be a bit more... accepting.

 

[rmarchigiani]

You're absolutely right. I hope some IMG's that have matched read this message and contribute. Even just the names of IMG friendly programs is very helpful.

I figured this is one area I can be of assitance. There are 3 programs within a 20 mile radius that are both IMG friendly and from what I understand and have heard, are great training programs (I am at one of them and am a US IMG from the Carib).

I have worked with residents, fellows, and attendings that are currently trianing at these programs, have trained at the program, or are going to be training as a fellow in the next year and only have good things to say. I also know that these 3 places interview IMGs and all have IMGs in their programs (categorical)

I have personal experience at 2 of them (home residency and rotating resident --> hoping to do fellowship at the one I am currently rotating at for Burn/Critical care/trauma with goal of being a Burn Surgeon).

St. Lukes Bethlehem, Bethlehem, PA (my program)
Lehigh Valley Hospital, Cedar Crest, Allentown, PA (rotating in Burn unit)
Easton Hospital, Easton, PA

You can also search Freida, because I know for a fact there are a few more in PA (York, Geisinger, Abbington, Mercy, Allegheny, Lankenau, Gutherie, etc) plus a ton in NY, Massachusetts (Lahey Clinic, Berkshire, Baystate), and there are others in the North East ( I know because I applied to them all - my application total was 110). I cant guarantee these are all IMG friendly, however these are some of the "community programs" that exist here in the NE and I do know some of have IMGs in them right now (Abbington, Mercy)

I can also assure you that 2 of the 3 programs that I have expreience with have placed residents in fanstatic fellowships over the last 5-10 years, with the only exception being pediatric surgery.

Anyhow, I hope this helps. I would be happy to answer any other questions you may have. Just let me know.

RM

 

[dpmd]

Kern Medical Center in Bakersfield CA has two IMG's right now (a chief and an intern) out of 10 categorical 9and has had others previously as well). These were people that rotated here as students, so that may be the reason.

You wouldn't be able to take a year off for research, but as far as fellowships go people tend to get good ones if they choose (about 50% do fellowship, most recently one of the chiefs is going to do vascular at mayo)

 

[MrBigLips]

I figured this is one area I can be of assitance...

RM

Thank you so much RM. This helps out a lot. I'll be sure to check out Frieda as well when I get the chance. Would it be okay for me to PM you to ask you a few more questions? Thanks a lot once again.

Kern Medical Center in Bakersfield CA has two IMG's right now (a chief and an intern) out of 10 categorical 9and has had others previously as well). These were people that rotated here as students, so that may be the reason.

I used to live about 2 hours away from Bakersfield before I left for med school abroad. I tried contacting Kern about 2 years ago to arrange for an elective and they told me they didn't accept international students at all. Those IMG's that roatated there must have had some type of connections.

Also, isn't California almost 'off limits' to IMG's? I mean, the state requires you to get a separate California letter (I think it's called the PTAL) if your an IMG before you can apply.

 

[rmarchigiani]

Thank you so much RM. This helps out a lot. I'll be sure to check out Frieda as well when I get the chance. Would it be okay for me to PM you to ask you a few more questions? Thanks a lot once again.

Yeah of course, Id be happy to help. Wouldn't be a problem at all. Ill keep an eye out for your PM.

RM

 

[dpmd]

I used to live about 2 hours away from Bakersfield before I left for med school abroad. I tried contacting Kern about 2 years ago to arrange for an elective and they told me they didn't accept international students at all. Those IMG's that roatated there must have had some type of connections.

Really, that is weird. There is a formal connection between KMC and at least one of the schools in the carribean. We have a bunch of students here all the time from there (and have for years). Granted the school pays KMC a lot of money, so if you aren't from that school maybe you aren't allowed.

 

[MrBigLips]

Really, that is weird. There is a formal connection between KMC and at least one of the schools in the carribean.

Yeaaaa, that makes sense. I might be able to recall the secretary asking me which country my school was in first, and when I told her she said sorry. Either that really happened or I just made it up in my hippocampal formation to make myself feel better. Haha. Thanks though.

 

[FixIt]

I am a US IMG, Caribbean medical school, interviewed at Kern Medical Center, Pinnacle Health, Marshfield Clinic, Saint Barnabas, and Geisinger. There were other US IMGs here interviewing, as well as US allopathic students.

I am having trouble ranking them and would love some help with ranking them if anyone can offer some input. There are many factors at play, which makes it difficult to rank them.

Can anyone comment on the strength of the programs relative to each other in terms of strength of training. In other words, how well will the program prepare me to be a competent general surgeon? I have the data on where graduates go for fellowship/practice, but my essential question is how well trained are they to care for their patients? These programs will prepare the residents well to care for their patients, but relative to each other, how would you rank them?

Barnabas
Geisinger
Marshfield
Kern
Pinnacle

Many thanks for anything you can offer.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I am a US IMG, Caribbean medical school, interviewed at Kern Medical Center, Pinnacle Health, Marshfield Clinic, Saint Barnabas, and Geisinger. There were other US IMGs here interviewing, as well as US allopathic students.

I am having trouble ranking them and would love some help with ranking them if anyone can offer some input. There are many factors at play, which makes it difficult to rank them.

Can anyone comment on the strength of the programs relative to each other in terms of strength of training. In other words, how well will the program prepare me to be a competent general surgeon? I have the data on where graduates go for fellowship/practice, but my essential question is how well trained are they to care for their patients? These programs will prepare the residents well to care for their patients, but relative to each other, how would you rank them?

Barnabas
Geisinger
Marshfield
Kern
Pinnacle

Many thanks for anything you can offer.

I believe you've asked an unaswerable question. These "rankings" are very subjective.

None of us here have trained at more than one program (or I'd venture most of us haven't). Therefore, while I might be able to comment on Pinnacle residents, and dpmd can comment on Kern, I can't compare Pinnacle residents to Kern and vice versa.

 

[SLUser11]

I am having trouble ranking them and would love some help with ranking them if anyone can offer some input. There are many factors at play, which makes it difficult to rank them.

Around this time of year, we get a lot of requests from students to do their rank list for them....actually there's another thread going right now with that request.

However, since you just went to all these places, saw them in person, etc, you are more qualified than any of us to rank them. This is because there are so many factors that go into rankings, and because all of our opinions are based on rumors or vague reputations.

I always find it odd that high-functioning medical students can interview at 10 places, then have absolutely no idea how to rank them in order. My recommendation is to start with your favorite program, then go down from there to your least favorite program.

 

[dpmd]

I believe you've asked an unaswerable question. These "rankings" are very subjective.

None of us here have trained at more than one program (or I'd venture most of us haven't). Therefore, while I might be able to comment on Pinnacle residents, and dpmd can comment on Kern, I can't compare Pinnacle residents to Kern and vice versa.

Quite true.

I must admit, one of the deciding factors for where KMC fell on my rank list was the fact that I found a massage school where I could get cheap massages (I was deciding between two for number one spot and figured I would live better in bakersfield since housing was so much less expensive). I figured all programs would train me to be a competent surgeon otherwise they would have been shut down by now. While I guess that isn't strictly true (we have all heard of places where everyone does fellowships because they need to complete their training-although the truth of that isn't verifiable), I figure as long as the program turns out some folks that go directly to practice and end up board certified it will work for me too.

 

[Buzz Me]

Can anyone comment on the strength of the programs relative to each other in terms of strength of training. In other words, how well will the program prepare me to be a competent general surgeon?

...in other words, you're asking for a "ranking" of the various programs, which of course doesn't exist. You're supposed to submit your rank order list based on your OWN criteria as ascertained during your interview, web search, talking with residents/fellows/attendings, etc.

What's important to you? Location? Fellowship match rate? Academic versus community? Size? Vacation time? Salary? Benefits? Parking? Cafeteria food?

And how important is each criterion compared to the next?

Only you can answer these questions.

Most people find that their top 1-2 programs are easy, as are their bottom 1-2. It's the middle ones that are hard to rank.

 

[Guile]

Around this time of year, we get a lot of requests from students to do their rank list for them....actually there's another thread going right now with that request.

However, since you just went to all these places, saw them in person, etc, you are more qualified than any of us to rank them. This is because there are so many factors that go into rankings, and because all of our opinions are based on rumors or vague reputations.

I always find it odd that high-functioning medical students can interview at 10 places, then have absolutely no idea how to rank them in order. My recommendation is to start with your favorite program, then go down from there to your least favorite program.

Around this time of year, we get a lot of responses like yours that are no help to people trying to create rank lists. I think you misinterpret "help me with my rank list" to mean "make a rank list for me and that's what I'll enter into the NRMP." Why do you assume that people are asking you to create a list taking personal preferences into account? If you re-read FixIt's post, he asks:

In other words, how well will the program prepare me to be a competent general surgeon?

and

how would you rank them?

He's asking for one more opinion that will contribute to his final ranking. Did you consult no one when you made your list? Of course we can get a sense of the residents and the environment and other personal factors, but programs put their best foot forward on interview day and it's difficult to get a sense of the place's weaknesses. Users try to solicit that information here. We're not asking for people who have trained at more than one place (no one) or for you to pull out a master ranking list that no one knows about (doesn't exist, which we know). Rather we're just trying to get another opinion on the places before we submit the ROL. Part of my criteria is "what do other people think about these places?" and "what do others know about the programs that they don't talk about on interview day." I would imagine that's the case for many other people, and if you ignore what other people know about programs before you submit (doesn't mean that you're going to completely change your ROL based on their feedback but it's helpful to know) then you're stupid for not using every resource at your disposal. Despite your attempt here to the contrary, SDN can be an important resource of knowledge about programs.

See an example of a helpful post from Celiac Plexus in another thread:

Wake>Jefferson=UTSA=Rush=Loyola

Wake is the only program on this list that is significantly better than the rest though... I would say that the difference between the other programs is so negligible as not to discernible.

If you don't have something helpful to add to the discussion, then please don't post. Condescending posts like yours really add nothing to the community here.

 

[FixIt]

Thanks Guile, I appreciate you understanding where I am coming from and for understanding what I am asking. I think you hit the nail on the head.

 

[SLUser11]

If you don't have something helpful to add to the discussion, then please don't post. Condescending posts like yours really add nothing to the community here.

Easy, now....don't get your panties in such a bunch.

Search my posts, and you'll see that I spend a great deal of time providing information and advice to medical students.....even in this very thread.

However, these ROL questions are simply impossible to answer. And, since none of us are actually training at any of these places, our opinions are going to be mostly inaccurate and based on rumors and speculation. It's my opinion that providing an arbitrary ranking to these places will do more harm than good for the applicant.

 

[Guile]

My recommendation is to start with your favorite program, then go down from there to your least favorite program.

Easy, now....don't get your panties in such a bunch.

Again, condescending.

I still posit that interview day alone is an insufficient basis to form a ROL. I'm fortunate to be at a top program where I've had excellent mentorship to help me create mine, so I haven't had to solicit opinions on programs here (although I've certainly sifted through previous posts from SDNers whom I trust to find info on programs). I just wish that other posters here weren't met with such derision when asking for help with such an important decision.

 

[SLUser11]

Again, condescending.

Well, this time it was intentional.

Anyway, Not all students seeking advice are met with derision. I was probably too hard on FixIt because there has been about 5 similar threads in the last couple days.

I agree that the interview day only gives you a snapshot, and the program and interviewee are both seeing only the polished versions of eachother, but I just plain hate it when students ask us to rank these places, because there's too much that goes into a rank order list. Now, if they say "rank these 5 programs based on academic reputation," or "tell me what you think about program X," that's something different.

The problem is that the hypothetical ROLs we create here on SDN won't help much, and they could actually hurt the applicant. What if they change their ROL because Joe Schmoe from Wichita thinks Marshfield should be #2 instead of #3? That has serious long term effects. I would hope that nobody would change their ROL based on advice from an anonymous internet message board, but we both know that some people would, and I don't like that.

 

[Guile]

Anyway, Not all students seeking advice are met with derision.

Just those asking for help on their ROLs...

I just plain hate it when students ask us to rank these places, because there's too much that goes into a rank order list. Now, if they say "rank these 5 programs based on academic reputation," or "tell me what you think about program X," that's something different.

That's my point. CLEARLY, we can evaluate the location, how well we liked the residents and faculty, etc. There are many factors that go into creating a ROL. One of which should be others' opinions on the programs in case there is an aspect of the program you're not aware of (program weaknesses, residents leaving the program, malignancy, etc.). And if you re-read FixIt's post, he clearly asks something specific, not just "rank these for me."

 

[45408]

I am a US IMG, Caribbean medical school, interviewed at Kern Medical Center, Pinnacle Health, Marshfield Clinic, Saint Barnabas, and Geisinger. There were other US IMGs here interviewing, as well as US allopathic students.

These programs will prepare the residents well to care for their patients, but relative to each other, how would you rank them?

Part of the problem is that these aren't well-known programs. I'm familiar with one, but none of the others.

I think you should go with your gut. You must pick a place that you can actually live in for 5 years. Bailing out after 2-3 years because you can never get to see your family or pursue your favorite hobbies or afford to live somewhere nicer than a tiny studio = a loss of a lot of time.

When I made my list, there were a few places that instantly jumped out at me as being my top choices, just based on how my gut feeling was at the interview. Did you feel anything like that anywhere you went?

 

[FixIt]

Thank you for asking. You see that's just the thing, something stands out very much about each of these programs. The problem is that the thing that stands out about each one is a completely different factor than at another program. One program may seem like a great training opportunity in terms of how much I will learn and be ready to make and carry out surgical decisions, but holy schnikies it would be hell working with that guy there. So maybe this other program seems perfect, except holy schnikies it's in the middle of nowhere. Or maybe this other program has great people, in the perfect area for my personal interests, but "seems" like maybe I would be missing out on the surgical education/training experience (ie, they are still doing case x the old way).

all these other factors i can figure out myself... i know how i feel about the people, location, benefits at each program. i see where they go for fellowship/practice, etc. etc. so the thing that is hard to know is how well trained the graduates are. if your wife/mother/sister was a surgical patient, which graduate would you send them to? which graduate do you think would be better equiped to make the right decision and give her the best chance? yeah, sure, it depends on what type of case we are talking about. but you get the idea from a 4th year medical student who has no idea about all the things that you guys have learned by already progressing through your residency. so thanks for mentioning some of them. as theProwler mentioned, some of these programs aren't well known, which makes your input so much more valuable. as SLUser mentioned, we are "high-functioning medical students", so of course we will take your input as just that, it's just "your input" and not some gold standard comment, nor is it you "creating our ROL".

so basically, when a NY city boy is about to rank a program #1 one, and live in the middle of nowhere with my wife and family because i "think" ("in my limited experience") that i will come out of it with an amazing experience in terms of what I'll be able to do for sick patients as a surgeon..... i'd like some reassurance that yeah, it is actually a pretty darn good program. or maybe i was way off in my assessment, and i'd be making a big mistake. and the same thing goes for each of the other programs, maybe at a different rank #, but with a different set of circumstances..... i'd like some reassurance that yeah, i'm right, the chiefs at program Z are still asking their attendings what to do while at program Y they knew what to do (and how to do it) as a pgy3.

or maybe, it doesn't really matter at all because the match is crazy in the end.

thanks folks for your comments.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I still think you're asking an unaswerable question.

Any of the residents here are going to only have that information about 1, maybe two programs. SLUser knows about Wichita, I know about Penn State, UMDNJ-RWJ and Pinnacle (only because my ex-SO trained there), Socialist someplace else, etc. Any information about programs we aren't training at simply is rumor - and rumors have a way of being outdated (ie, we get them from our attendings who knew someone there 10 years ago) or simply wrong.

Once out in practice you will work with people who have trained lots of places, except that you don't know where. I only know where my colleagues who are good friends have trained, but I'm not working side by side in the OR with them and don't trust the nurses really know who's good and who isn't (if they are fast, nice and make a good closure, they think they're good). And a lot of improvement in technique, etc. comes once you are out in practice, not during residency.

So I'm not sure, regardless of whether you're asking us to do your ranking for you (which it seems you are not) or you want opinions on multiple programs, how we can be of help. There is no one here who has trained at or knows people at all of your programs or has heard of them (ie, they aren't very well known places where our attendings trained, or talk about them, or their buddies there); we aren't going to be able to tell you if residents from program X are well trained which is the question you appear to be asking because we don't know (unless there is a member who has trained there).

 

[45408]

so basically, when a NY city boy is about to rank a program #1 one, and live in the middle of nowhere with my wife and family because i "think" ("in my limited experience") that i will come out of it with an amazing experience in terms of what I'll be able to do for sick patients as a surgeon..... i'd like some reassurance that yeah, it is actually a pretty darn good program. or maybe i was way off in my assessment, and i'd be making a big mistake.

Don't underestimate the impact of cultural shock on your family. More than one marriage in my program ended - at least in part, from my understanding - due to a significant other moving across the country for residency. Much of the week, my wife is living like a single mother because I'm gone so much. She's close enough to her parents that she can drive home for an extended weekend, which helps a lot. I was post-call on Thanksgiving and on call on Christmas, so she just went home.

 

[dpmd]

I con't compare the programs you asked, because I have to knowledge of the places besides my own. I can however make some comments about how I felt rotating at several other insitutions as a third and fourth year resident. Because the hospital where I train does not have every area of training required (or that our program director feels is important) we do a fair amount of rotating out in third and fourth year. The nice part about doing it as a more senior resident is that while I still feel like the scared new kid at school, I have my prior training to fall back on. Some observances based on my experiences thus far (and those of my colleagues when we talked about stuff):

We learn how to do things earlier and are more comfortable with the medicine side of surgical care than what was expected at some places (such as UCLA, and UCSD when we used to rotated there)

We are more comfortable with the care of trauma patients-operative and non-op

We can take care of really sick patients without relying on consultants

We are creative in problem solving (my fellow resident has the perfect example-stab wound to the heart with a patient in tamponade, no pericardiocentesis kit and wanted to avoid a thoracotomy because she was rotating at the small community place we go to and the patient was going to have to be transferred since the surgeons there didn't feel comfortable handling it. She put a triple lumen catheter in over a wire after getting in the pericardium, stabilizes the patient for transport and he makes it to our facility, gets repaired, and goes home not long after)

I will be happy to answer any questions you or anyone else might have about my program. And we aren't really in the middle of nowhere. 2 hrs and you are in LA, or there are plenty of things to entertain you in town (unless you have to go to a gourmet restaurant every night after you attend the theatre and symphony). Plus, when I go out parking is free or affordable, drinks range from 3-8 dollars, I can find live music at a number of different places (and no, not just country music), and I can satisfy an urge for Thai, Chinese, Japanese, French, Basque, Indian, Greek, Italian, Mexican, Carribean food (and that is just the types of places I have tried so far). Or I can head over to a bar where some of the patrons arrive on horseback and get good beer and yummy food for pretty damns cheap. There is something for just about everyone here, and I never realized it until I moved here. Just had to defend the place a little since I feel like everyone thinks it is just farms and cows out here or something

 

[45408]

I can find live music at a number of different places (and no, not just country music), and I can satisfy an urge for Thai, Chinese, Japanese, French, Basque, Indian, Greek, Italian, Mexican, Carribean food (and that is just the types of places I have tried so far).

Man, you just named off the two things I miss most about Milwaukee where I am now lacks a music scene, and the dining options are much more limited here. When I lived on the east side of Milwaukee, I was less than 2-3 miles from literally every type of restaurant you just listed.

 

[SLUser11]

and the dining options are much more limited here...

True enough. While I didn't enjoy all the bullets whizzing by my head in St. Louis, I did enjoy the food and entertainment. Wichita is seriously lacking in Indian, Thai, or Vietnamese options. Whenever a good restaurant does open up, it's usually closed within a year due to low volume.

Of course, Applebee's and Old Chicago are packed every night.....

 

[Guile]

True enough. While I didn't enjoy all the bullets whizzing by my head in St. Louis, I did enjoy the food and entertainment. Wichita is seriously lacking in Indian, Thai, or Vietnamese options. Whenever a good restaurant does open up, it's usually closed within a year due to low volume.

Of course, Applebee's and Old Chicago are packed every night.....

Hmmm, I had a very different perception of Wichita. I assumed the restaurant scene would be pretty good. The population is 350,000+ IIRC. I remember reading this article a while ago (click first hit...stupid registration walls) and thought with Learjet, Beechcraft, et al. moving into town, the economy would be booming.

 

[SLUser11]

Hmmm, I had a very different perception of Wichita. I assumed the restaurant scene would be pretty good. The population is 350,000+ IIRC. I remember reading this article a while ago (click first hit...stupid registration walls) and thought with Learjet, Beechcraft, et al. moving into town, the economy would be booming.

The economy is fine in Wichita. It's just that Wichita natives would rather spend their money at Chili's than an interesting Vietnamese restaurant.

I don't want to get too down on this city, though. It reminds me of a slightly smaller version of Omaha--> Very square, easy to get around, no traffic, low crime rates, low cost of living, lots of family-friendly activities, etc.

Still, I wish there was more dining variety. Since it's the midwest, there are a thousand steakhouses, and literally 5 or 6 Mongolian BBQ places, but there are only 2 Indian restaurants, and they are both pretty weak. There's also a ridiculous number of fast-food mexican restaurants, all with "Taco" in their title: Taco Tico, Taco Bueno, Taco John's, Taco City, Taco Town, Taco Hole....

 

[Guile]

The economy is fine in Wichita. It's just that Wichita natives would rather spend their money at Chili's than an interesting Vietnamese restaurant.

I don't want to get too down on this city, though. It reminds me of a slightly smaller version of Omaha--> Very square, easy to get around, no traffic, low crime rates, low cost of living, lots of family-friendly activities, etc.

Still, I wish there was more dining variety. Since it's the midwest, there are a thousand steakhouses, and literally 5 or 6 Mongolian BBQ places, but there are only 2 Indian restaurants, and they are both pretty weak. There's also a ridiculous number of fast-food mexican restaurants, all with "Taco" in their title: Taco Tico, Taco Bueno, Taco John's, Taco City, Taco Town, Taco Hole....

Well, if you like ethnic food, you're heading to the right place. Houston has my favorite Chinatown in the country. A+, seriously. I like it even more than NYC or SF's because you can drive your car and park. The Indian food is outstanding. (Do you like north or south Indian food? Doesn't matter because they have incredible restaurants for both.) And you can't find better Mexican food in Mexico City. (And you won't get Montezuma's revenge to boot.)

OTOH, crime and cost of living are much higher. And the traffic will make you rage. However, you can sell the snowblower before you leave.

 

[FutureCTDoc]

A great FMG/DO friendly Gen Surg program is Waterbury Hospital. The attendings are great, good volume, low cost of living.
There are 2 Cat spots per year and 2 Prelims for a total of 14, here is a list of post grad year and foreign or osteopathic med school:
Prelim: AUC, PCOM
PGY2: MUA, Moscow Medical Academy
PGY3: Ross, American University of Beirut
PGY4: PCOM
PGY5: Ross, Karolinska

50% of categorical spots are held by FMGs. It is a Yale and UConn affiliate, with 357 beds and 15,000 admissions. More information is available at http://www.waterburysurgery.com/About Us.htm or PM me.

 

[45408]

True enough. While I didn't enjoy all the bullets whizzing by my head in St. Louis, I did enjoy the food and entertainment. Wichita is seriously lacking in Indian, Thai, or Vietnamese options. Whenever a good restaurant does open up, it's usually closed within a year due to low volume.

Of course, Applebee's and Old Chicago are packed every night.....

That's exactly what the suburbs around Milwaukee are like. The waiting line for Applebees is often 30-45 minutes, while there are many places with much more varied dining options not too far away with no wait time.

all with "Taco" in their title: Taco Tico, Taco Bueno, Taco John's, Taco City, Taco Town, Taco Hole....

that sounds very familiar.

 

[FixIt]

Thank you all for your feedback. It really is helpful to me and everyone else with similar scenarios. We are all making a big commitment, just as you already have done. It is nice to have your support as we go through this process. I'll definitely pay it forward to next year's class. Best wishes to the other candidates, and also to the programs. Hope everyone finds a good fit!

 

[Jorski]

The economy is fine in Wichita. It's just that Wichita natives would rather spend their money at Chili's than an interesting Vietnamese restaurant.

I don't want to get too down on this city, though. It reminds me of a slightly smaller version of Omaha--> Very square, easy to get around, no traffic, low crime rates, low cost of living, lots of family-friendly activities, etc.

Still, I wish there was more dining variety. Since it's the midwest, there are a thousand steakhouses, and literally 5 or 6 Mongolian BBQ places, but there are only 2 Indian restaurants, and they are both pretty weak. There's also a ridiculous number of fast-food mexican restaurants, all with "Taco" in their title: Taco Tico, Taco Bueno, Taco John's, Taco City, Taco Town, Taco Hole....

What Indian places did you try? I have only been to one and it was OK.

There are some good non-chain places to eat, but they are hidden pretty well. For instance, Copper Oven has excellent breakfast.

 

[SLUser11]

What Indian places did you try? I have only been to one and it was OK.

There are some good non-chain places to eat, but they are hidden pretty well. For instance, Copper Oven has excellent breakfast.

Passage to India- Not bad, but small portions and limited menu...also pretty bland.

Deshi Curry- Nice family, but food not too great, and restaurant sort of dirty.

I just discovered another place while trying to google Deshi Curry, so I might have to check that out.

 

[Jorski]

Passage to India- Not bad, but small portions and limited menu...also pretty bland.

Deshi Curry- Nice family, but food not too great, and restaurant sort of dirty.

I just discovered another place while trying to google Deshi Curry, so I might have to check that out.

Huh. If you were wanting some Lebanese food, you might try N and J's cafe off of Lincoln. The food was good and the place was clean. Its in a shady area, but oh well.