Community College

[searun]

Seriously, folks, this is not that complicated. Med School Admission Committees give more credence to academic records at 4 year colleges and universities than community colleges, as anyone would with half of a brain. Community Colleges are not as rigorous as 4 year colleges and universities and the academic abilities of CC students as a group, not individually, but as a group, are much lower. So if you can afford to attend a 4 year university do it, if not, then transfer when you can afford it and prove that you can be a successful student at a 4 year university. Are there many examples of CC students, who transferred to 4 year universities, and became great physicians, of course. Just get your butt out of the CC when you can afford it, go to a 4 year Bachelor degree granting university and do well, and you will be fine. That is it.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[sicko]

What was your grades, MCAT score, what courses did you take at the jc, and how was your grades at the jcx compared to the 4 year institution

+ Took general chem and o-chem w/ labs, mechanics, electricity & magnetism (calculus-based) physics w/ labs, calculus 1 & 2 at a JC. Science GPA 4.0
+ Took general cell bio, zoology, microbio (all w/ labs) and calculus 3 and linear algebra, numerical analysis, probability (advanced math) at a 4-year institution. Science GPA 3.9
+ MCAT: 32
+ 0 MD acceptances; 3 DO acceptances; 2 MD interviews; turned down 5-6 DO interviews.
+ Good EC's (community service, 1yr MD shadowing, 2yr volunteering at a hospital, 2yr research in molecular biology, etc.)

I've been looking at SDN'ers' profiles and most people with a 32 mcat and 3.5+ gpa got at least 1 MD acceptance by now and have been to several interviews. I'm OK w/ going to a DO school. I'm just saying that MD schools do put a lot of weight on your undergrad courses. And nothing is wrong with that.

 

[notdeadyet]

I've been looking at SDN'ers' profiles and most people with a 32 mcat and 3.5+ gpa got at least 1 MD acceptance by now and have been to several interviews. I'm OK w/ going to a DO school. I'm just saying that MD schools do put a lot of weight on your undergrad courses.

Schools really don't care where you did them. I came from the community college system, have lower stats than you, and recieved 5 allopathic acceptances.

Sorry to hear about your bad luck. Contact the schools who turned you down and ask them why. I'd be very suprised if they said that it was due to your community college history. I've yet to meet a single applicant that was asked about it once on interview.

 

[notdeadyet]

Seriously, folks, this is not that complicated. Med School Admission Committees give more credence to academic records at 4 year colleges and universities than community colleges, as anyone would with half of a brain. Community Colleges are not as rigorous as 4 year colleges and universities and the academic abilities of CC students as a group, not individually, but as a group, are much lower.

Using this logic, you're probably wiser to attend a junior college for two years and transfer to UCLA or berkeley than you are to attend an unranked public school for four years in most states, yes?

 

[sicko]

Seriously, folks, this is not that complicated. Med School Admission Committees give more credence to academic records at 4 year colleges and universities than community colleges, as anyone would with half of a brain. Community Colleges are not as rigorous as 4 year colleges and universities and the academic abilities of CC students as a group, not individually, but as a group, are much lower. So if you can afford to attend a 4 year university do it, if not, then transfer when you can afford it and prove that you can be a successful student at a 4 year university. Are there many examples of CC students, who transferred to 4 year universities, and became great physicians, of course. Just get your butt out of the CC when you can afford it, go to a 4 year Bachelor degree granting university and do well, and you will be fine. That is it.

I'd like to add that I went to a CC because I didn't go to high school in the US and could not get into a four-year univ directly. After I transferred to UCLA, I did good and graduated with a cum laude. I hope that med schools do look at the prereqs on a case-by-case basis and not just disregard JC courses just because they are less rigorous.

 

[nybrian]

+ Took general chem and o-chem w/ labs, mechanics, electricity & magnetism (calculus-based) physics w/ labs, calculus 1 & 2 at a JC. Science GPA 4.0
+ Took general cell bio, zoology, microbio (all w/ labs) and calculus 3 and linear algebra, numerical analysis, probability (advanced math) at a 4-year institution. Science GPA 3.9
+ MCAT: 32
+ 0 MD acceptances; 3 DO acceptances; 2 MD interviews; turned down 5-6 DO interviews.
+ Good EC's (community service, 1yr MD shadowing, 2yr volunteering at a hospital, 2yr research in molecular biology, etc.)

I've been looking at SDN'ers' profiles and most people with a 32 mcat and 3.5+ gpa got at least 1 MD acceptance by now and have been to several interviews. I'm OK w/ going to a DO school. I'm just saying that MD schools do put a lot of weight on your undergrad courses. And nothing is wrong with that.

canu tell me what md schools you applied to?

 

[nybrian]

Schools really don't care where you did them. I came from the community college system, have lower stats than you, and recieved 5 allopathic acceptances.

Sorry to hear about your bad luck. Contact the schools who turned you down and ask them why. I'd be very suprised if they said that it was due to your community college history. I've yet to meet a single applicant that was asked about it once on interview.

What schools did you get accepted to?

 

[searun]

Using this logic, you're probably wiser to attend a junior college for two years and transfer to UCLA or berkeley than you are to attend an unranked public school for four years in most states, yes?

No, because life is not about getting admitted to medical school, and frankly, I believe that most students would have a more interesting intellectual and emotional experience, and a better social life at a 4 year university than at a community college. Community colleges are commuter schools, not residence schools. And I think, if you are 18 years old ( and yes, I understand that everyone is not 18 years old when they begin college but most people are), living in a dorm with kids your own age, being taught by Ph.D professors instead of ad junct teachers with masters degrees at a CC, makes for a more interesting total educational experience.

The 4 year university is the best route. But obviously it is not possible for everyone. If you can bootstrap your way from a CC to a 4 year university, get the BA, and than get admitted to med school, my hat is off to you. Is it ideal, no, but is it the only possible way for some people, of course. Would I recommend to my own kids that they go to CC, and then try to get into medical school, no, that would not be my chosen path for them. And I doubt that you would recommend that path to your own children, inspite of your personal experiences because it is contradicted by reality.

 

[sicko]

canu tell me what md schools you applied to?

I only applied to lower-tier MD schools with the exception of UCLA (my undergrad school):

Rosalind Franklin
Loyola
Albany
NYMC
South Florida
University of Toledo
Wright State University
UCLA
Miami
SUNY Upstate
SUNY Buffalo
Temple
GW
Maryland
Creighton
etc.

All completed mid Sept, 07.

I should create a profile on mdapplicants.com, so I can just send the link instead of typing down all this info over and over again.

 

[ufgrad00]

Wow, this argument is still going on. I will also attest that I transferred from a CC and have three MD acceptances. There is nothing wrong with doing your pre-reqs at a CC. No admissions committee is going to penalize you for taking your gen bio and chem at a CC.

The only truth about adcoms looking down on CC's is if you took science and math courses at one while you were enrolled at a university, because you thought it would be easier to take them at a CC. Some students at UF would take orgo at the local CC while they were taking other courses at UF. However, the truth is that CC are not necessarily easier. For instance physics exams at UF were multiple choice and included a cheat sheet with the exam; however, at the CC I came from (although, I didn't take physics there) physics exams were on a blank sheet of paper where you showed your calc proofs and no test aids were allowed.

Anways, all the hate against CC is unfounded elitism and the subject is old.

 

[Corker]

Took ALL my prerequs at community college (in California). E-mailed all the schools to which I was planning to apply about how they viewed cc credits...some said great, some said so-so, some said absolutely NO (though only about three on my list said no.)

I applied to a LOT of schools all across the country. So far, I've gotten sixteen interview invites, attended nine interviews, accepted at eight and waitlisted at one. Been accepted at two California schools (one UC, one private), and turned down an interview at another UC. Also been accepted at some well-regarded schools OOS.

I say this with great humility and gratitude. I have been blessed/lucky/whatever you want to call it this year...

but I want to make clear that CC credits are not the kiss of death for an otherwise strong applicant. A strong GPA, decent MCAT score, excellent LOR's, and lots of leadership/clinical experience are far more important than university prerequs (in most cases).

If you have a compelling reason...family, limited finances, cannot afford the time to drive two hours a day to get to a university...go ahead and take your prerequs at a CC. Just be sure everything else looks good and you break 30 on the MCAT. You'll be fine!!!

 

[TheRealMD]

The big no-no is taking pre-med courses at a CC while enrolled in a 4-year institution. It's pretty obvious what you are doing there.

 

[sicko]

Took ALL my prerequs at community college (in California). E-mailed all the schools to which I was planning to apply about how they viewed cc credits...some said great, some said so-so, some said absolutely NO (though only about three on my list said no.)

I applied to a LOT of schools all across the country. So far, I've gotten sixteen interview invites, attended nine interviews, accepted at eight and waitlisted at one. Been accepted at two California schools (one UC, one private), and turned down an interview at another UC. Also been accepted at some well-regarded schools OOS.

I say this with great humility and gratitude. I have been blessed/lucky/whatever you want to call it this year...

but I want to make clear that CC credits are not the kiss of death for an otherwise strong applicant. A strong GPA, decent MCAT score, excellent LOR's, and lots of leadership/clinical experience are far more important than university prerequs (in most cases).

If you have a compelling reason...family, limited finances, cannot afford the time to drive two hours a day to get to a university...go ahead and take your prerequs at a CC. Just be sure everything else looks good and you break 30 on the MCAT. You'll be fine!!!

Corker,
Have you heard back from Loma Linda yet since your interview? I'm glad that Loma Linda does consider courses taken at a CC. It means I still have a chance to interview there.
Best,

 

[notdeadyet]

And I think, if you are 18 years old ( and yes, I understand that everyone is not 18 years old when they begin college but most people are), living in a dorm with kids your own age, being taught by Ph.D professors instead of ad junct teachers with masters degrees at a CC, makes for a more interesting total educational experience.

Dorm life is fun, no doubt about it. Though you don't have to miss that as a transfer student. Most colleges I know have a "transfer" dorm, where you have junior transfers live for a year. I suppose you could live in the dorms all four years, but one year is more than enough for some of us.

Community colleges vary a lot. The one I went to was almost entirely Ph.D.s. In classes of 30. Most big public schools, for many of your intro classes in your first year or two, you are not taught by Ph.D.'s. You're taught by T.A.'s. The Ph.D. is just the guy who lectures at you for three hours a week.

The 4 year university is the best route.

Whenever folks make these kind of statements, it makes me suspicious.

There is no "best route". Not for an education, not for getting a top notch degree, and not for getting in to medical school. There is the best route for you. Any discussion of what is best for everybody is just plain silly.

 

[notdeadyet]

And I doubt that you would recommend that path to your own children, inspite of your personal experiences because it is contradicted by reality.

And you'd be wrong.

Many big four year universities are composed mainly of upper middle class suburban kids with whites and asian kids over-represented. Some work a few hours here and there, but the majority don't and get beer money from mom and dad. The introductory classes common in the first four years happen in lecture halls of 250-400 students; the actual classes are taught in what are called sections, run by students working towards Ph.D.'s, often Master's, and sometimes B.A.'s. They ain't all like this, but most I've been at bear a pretty healthy resemblence.

Community colleges vary a lot by state, which is why I think some folks have a very warped opinion of them. In California, they're very common, with a sizable number of any big school's graduating class being comprised of transfer students. For every student who's at a community college because they blew off high school, you have a mom who's there to get a degree while raising a family. You have a vet just back from five years of military service. You have folks not long in this country who are working to improve their English while also starting up their higher education. You have students like this at most four year schools, but they're in a small minority, rather than the norm.

Classes are often taught by Ph.D.'s who have the qualifications to teach at four year universities but prefer to teach at community colleges. They'd rather avoid the lifelong pursuit of grant money and research focus and would instead prefer to be actual teachers. Most transfer students you talk to, if you ask them after they graduate who their best teachers were and they'll usually list a few from their community college.

Don't assume that your way is the best way because it's the way you took and it made you happy. There are a whole lot of ways to getting an education and different environments suit different people in different ways. Most folks I know who went the community college route liked it. Some didn't. But if you haven't gone down that path, it's kind of hard to judge.

 

[pakbabydoll]

Why are you guys still debating about this issue when we have great examples like notdeadyet, Corker, and ufgrad00 telling us that they did their pre-reqs at a CC and still got acceptances.
Give it a rest already, this CC vs. university bias only exist in SDN pre-med mind. There is more to a med school application then your pre-reqs. From what I have heard things like personality, Community service, good PS, leadership experience, clinical experience, and some what luck are also needed.


Just for the record most of our teachers have Ph D's and those who don't teach much better.

 

[searun]

And you'd be wrong.

Many big four year universities are composed mainly of upper middle class suburban kids with whites and asian kids over-represented. Some work a few hours here and there, but the majority don't and get beer money from mom and dad. The introductory classes common in the first four years happen in lecture halls of 250-400 students; the actual classes are taught in what are called sections, run by students working towards Ph.D.'s, often Master's, and sometimes B.A.'s. They ain't all like this, but most I've been at bear a pretty healthy resemblence.

Community colleges vary a lot by state, which is why I think some folks have a very warped opinion of them. In California, they're very common, with a sizable number of any big school's graduating class being comprised of transfer students. For every student who's at a community college because they blew off high school, you have a mom who's there to get a degree while raising a family. You have a vet just back from five years of military service. You have folks not long in this country who are working to improve their English while also starting up their higher education. You have students like this at most four year schools, but they're in a small minority, rather than the norm.

Classes are often taught by Ph.D.'s who have the qualifications to teach at four year universities but prefer to teach at community colleges. They'd rather avoid the lifelong pursuit of grant money and research focus and would instead prefer to be actual teachers. Most transfer students you talk to, if you ask them after they graduate who their best teachers were and they'll usually list a few from their community college.

Don't assume that your way is the best way because it's the way you took and it made you happy. There are a whole lot of ways to getting an education and different environments suit different people in different ways. Most folks I know who went the community college route liked it. Some didn't. But if you haven't gone down that path, it's kind of hard to judge.

I am not denigrating the Community College experience, and if you reread my post more carefully, you will realize it. Actually, I attended a small liberal arts college. My largest class had 25 students, everyone of my instructors had a Ph.D, there were no graduate students, no teaching assistants, and my professors were granted tenure based upon their ability to teach, although many were well known in their respective fields nationally. I was not born with a silver spoon in my mouth, I did get a merit scholarship which paid my tuition, and I did back breaking construction work during my summers, so yeah, I know about hard work and dirty finger nails.

Many instructors at community colleges have masters degrees, rather than Ph.D degrees, and the ad junct professor, i.e. cheaper no benefits, is becoming the model, that is a fact, and I do not believe that the quality of instruction at community colleges for hard core academic subjects like organic chemistry, in general, is as good as you will find at 4 year universities. This is a general statement, and of course there are exceptions.

Can you be successful at a community college and become an MD, yes, no doubt, there are many examples of this on this forum. Would I send my own children to a CC, absolutely not. There are much better opportunities for an education than community colleges. Just being honest. If that offends you, tough.

 

[decafplease]

And you'd be wrong.

Many big four year universities are composed mainly of upper middle class suburban kids with whites and asian kids over-represented. Some work a few hours here and there, but the majority don't and get beer money from mom and dad. The introductory classes common in the first four years happen in lecture halls of 250-400 students; the actual classes are taught in what are called sections, run by students working towards Ph.D.'s, often Master's, and sometimes B.A.'s. They ain't all like this, but most I've been at bear a pretty healthy resemblence.

Community colleges vary a lot by state, which is why I think some folks have a very warped opinion of them. In California, they're very common, with a sizable number of any big school's graduating class being comprised of transfer students. For every student who's at a community college because they blew off high school, you have a mom who's there to get a degree while raising a family. You have a vet just back from five years of military service. You have folks not long in this country who are working to improve their English while also starting up their higher education. You have students like this at most four year schools, but they're in a small minority, rather than the norm.

Classes are often taught by Ph.D.'s who have the qualifications to teach at four year universities but prefer to teach at community colleges. They'd rather avoid the lifelong pursuit of grant money and research focus and would instead prefer to be actual teachers. Most transfer students you talk to, if you ask them after they graduate who their best teachers were and they'll usually list a few from their community college.

Don't assume that your way is the best way because it's the way you took and it made you happy. There are a whole lot of ways to getting an education and different environments suit different people in different ways. Most folks I know who went the community college route liked it. Some didn't. But if you haven't gone down that path, it's kind of hard to judge.

I agree 100%. I've been shell-shocked (not my GPA though, thankfully) since transferring because I miss being in small classes with professors I can get to know. I feel so anonymous. Most of my professors at CC were PhD's, and from top-notch schools, no less. I had a Yale MS/Harvard PhD math prof, many Berkeley PhD's, several other UC PhD's, etc.

I still keep in touch with several of my professors for personal reasons. They're like friends. I visit my old campus often and hang out to do homework (and ask my old OChem prof for help because my Biochem prof at my university doesn't show up for office hours because he's busy with his research) and try to be a good example to the other future transfers. I've never met a more dedicated, determined group than my fellow science classmates from CC.

I feel blessed to have attended such a great school, and I continue to use the knowledge I gained there to succeed in my upper division coursework.

 

[notdeadyet]

Actually, I attended a small liberal arts college. My largest class had 25 students, everyone of my instructors had a Ph.D, there were no graduate students, no teaching assistants, and my professors were granted tenure based upon their ability to teach, although many were well known in their respective fields nationally.

I referred to big four year universities in my post intentionally. Small liberal arts schools are definitely a different gig, with smaller classes and better faculty interaction. The only complaint I've heard about those places is research opportunities that don't match the big publics. I'd say it's a great place to get an education, though. I had Amherst dreams for a while when young.

And I wouldn't presume just because you go to a $30K/year school that you're rich. But in spite of whatever endowments/merit scholarships many LACs have, you're much more likely to be rubbing elbows with the kid who owns the BMW than the kid who works on the Ford. Nothing wrong with that, it's just that doctor's have such a skewed view of the world, I woudn't mind if more spent part of their education with those that don't already come from their demographic. Sweating out a summer job as a premed, you'll probably agree, was good for your character. Studying with the guy who actually does it for a living does you incalcuably more good.

There are much better opportunities for an education than community colleges. Just being honest.

Depends on how you define education. I wouldn't trade my time at the community college, though I'm sure some might. Personally, knowing I'm going to be a doctor, I'm glad I spent a good part of my education with folks more likely to be my patients than people who are more likely to be my investors or lawyers. But to each their own.

 

[notdeadyet]

I feel blessed to have attended such a great school, and I continue to use the knowledge I gained there to succeed in my upper division coursework.

Can I ask what state you went to community college in? I'm always curious which are the states with the better programs...

 

[ufgrad00]

The hate on CC's is usually related to the far and few between horror stories (OMG the CC cafeteria doesn't have Jamba Juice, what a dump!) or they are based on misinformation and misunderstandings.

Remember that the Educational Accrediting bodies that accredit Public and Private Schools and Universities like SACS (http://www.sacscoc.org/) in Florida and the rest of the South, also accredit the public community colleges under accreditation standards for the first two years that, based on their Carnegie Classification, are similarly used to judge Public and Private Universities like UF and UMiami.

 

[decafplease]

Can I ask what state you went to community college in? I'm always curious which are the states with the better programs...

California. We pay enough for it!

 

[life1chance]

I am a firm believer in the fact that no one path is perfect for everyone. There are multiple advantages to either scenario, as is the case with many things. Some advantages to attending a community college include lower tuition, one may get to live at home, usually smaller class sizes, etc. On the other hand, advantages to attending a four year university usually include a more difficult curriculum, the experience of living away from home, more research options, etc.

Now, is this the case for everyone? No. The point is that everyone is different and the "perfect pre-med path" does not exist. Each to their own, but saying you won't get into medical school if you take a couple of years worth of classes and prereqs. at a community college is just plain false as fellow SDN members have proven. Personally, I wish I would have taken a year or two at a community college. It would have been much cheaper and I wouldn't be freezing cold at the moment!

 

[RySerr21]

I only applied to lower-tier MD schools with the exception of UCLA (my undergrad school):

Rosalind Franklin
Loyola
Albany
NYMC
South Florida
University of Toledo
Wright State University
UCLA
Miami
SUNY Upstate
SUNY Buffalo
Temple
GW
Maryland
Creighton
etc.

All completed mid Sept, 07.

I should create a profile on mdapplicants.com, so I can just send the link instead of typing down all this info over and over again.

ive been curious about this for a while, who decides that those schools are "lower tier." is it a consensus among students/mds just based on GPA/MCAT??? the lower those stats are the lower the tier is? are the rotations seen as worse? lower match % into specialties?

 

[notdeadyet]

ive been curious about this for a while, who decides that those schools are "lower tier." is it a consensus among students/mds just based on GPA/MCAT??? the lower those stats are the lower the tier is? are the rotations seen as worse? lower match % into specialties?

Tier is commonly acknowledged by USN&WR. It's really not a big deal. It's much more a concern of premeds than of residency directors and the like. USN&WR ranks heavily by things like research dollars or affiliated faculty (not to be confused with actual lecturing professors) which have little impact on most med students.

Rotations aren't necessarily worse. Check with individual schools. And reading match lists can be a snore, as most schools match lists look very similar ("Look how many students we got into derm/rads!!!" is something you hear at Upcreek State as well as UCLA).

And don't confuse tier with competitiveness, either. Your state schools are almost always your best bet. Beyond that, apply to schools you'd be happy going to and are within your general stats.

I was given inteviews at schools with higher stats than mine and wasn't even given secondaries at schools ranked in the bottom tier. Go figure. Tier is just a continuation of snobbery, but it gets pretty equalized with board scores. And a school's board scores (which are unadvertised) don't mean as much as you'd think either, as they're usually more representative of the students at the school than at whatever they serve in the water there.