Community vs. University

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Sunna12

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Looking for some honest advice:

I've enjoyed both university and community programs so far on the interview trail and I haven't yet figured out what type of setting I want to end up in after residency but I do like to keep my options open. Does training at a community program for residency strongly influence your job prospects at a university program? Would an EMS fellowship and research throughout both residency and fellowship help me get a job at a university program some day if I decide I want to work there? The last community program I interviewed at claimed 20% of graduates go into academics, but from looking up where their graduates are, it seems like this may be more community academic than university settings.

Thanks so much

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Looking for some honest advice:

I've enjoyed both university and community programs so far on the interview trail and I haven't yet figured out what type of setting I want to end up in after residency but I do like to keep my options open. Does training at a community program for residency strongly influence your job prospects at a university program? Would an EMS fellowship and research throughout both residency and fellowship help me get a job at a university program some day if I decide I want to work there? The last community program I interviewed at claimed 20% of graduates go into academics, but from looking up where their graduates are, it seems like this may be more community academic than university settings.

Thanks so much

It depends more on the program than the specific type of program. For example, Carolinas is a strong community program with an academic bend that places a lot of people in academics. Without bashing any particular place, there are plenty of lackluster academic programs.

Research is always the ticket in academics. The problem is that research may not abound at community sites. Only do EMS if that’s your deal, it’s extra time for no extra pay. Same goes for many fellowships.

I’m academic faculty. The vast majority of our people trained at academic facilities, but that’s also where the vast majority of programs are.
 
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Training at an academic center increases your chances of landing a job there later. It also helps with other academic programs. Fellowships generally help. Research during residency with multiple publications helps. None of these things will hurt you if you ultimately decide to go into community medicine afterwards.
 
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University > community for residency

My biased opinion.
 
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I think it really depends on the individual program, you can make some generalizations, however there are some big name community programs and some weak University programs. There are community programs with tons of residencies and fellowships where the ED gets squeezed for procedures. There are community programs with tons of research resources. So the generalizations I'm going to make below don't always fit every program.

But here's my generalizations:
- University based programs will have more research resources
- Community programs are more likely to have less competition by other sub-specialty residencies for procedures
- Community programs are more apt to train you for the business of real life EM in my opinion
- You can do academics through either route
- If you want to work at a big name program as faculty straight out of training, you'll likely want to go to a University program, and still may need to do a fellowship to do so regardless
- If you want to do academics at a community EM program, you can likely get hired straight out of residency without doing a fellowship if you're academically inclined

My disclaimer: I was pretty biased for community EM programs based on my experience in med school. My home University based EM rotation was way too consultant heavy and I rarely saw EM residents doing procedures. There was a subspecialist/fellow for everything. When an eye complaint came in, they just consulted the ophthalmology resident. Every questionable psych patient was seen by psychiatry in the ED. Ortho reset every fracture, etc. When there was a sick resuscitation, the ICU residents came to the ED to do the resuscitation. I once saw both Neurosurgery and Neurology both consulted to try an LP on one patient. It was not at all what practicing real life EM is like based on my experience. My first community EM rotation literally shocked me, I had no idea the amount of responsibility EM residents could be given when compared to my home program. It drastically changed my approach to the match and I cancelled a ton of University based programs interviews eventually. I work in a Community EM program as faculty, and my resume is definitely good enough to get hired at a University based program if I wanted, but I doubt I'd ever go that route unless I was really looking to slow down. The pay in the community is so much better, and I still love the autonomy and procedures working in the community provides.

Once again, all these are generalizations, you want to compare programs individually based on what your long term goals are. You can be a terrific resident no matter which route you go.
 
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When an eye complaint came in, they just consulted the ophthalmology resident. Every questionable psych patient was seen by psychiatry in the ED. Ortho reset every fracture, etc. When there was a sick resuscitation, the ICU residents came to the ED to do the resuscitation. I once saw both Neurosurgery and Neurology both consulted to try an LP on one patient.
A little off topic, but I was really surprised by your experience.

The eye complaint thing? Sure, assuming it needs urgent intervention and you have them on hand.
IDK what you mean by "questionable psych patient" but having psych on hand to handle your patients who you put on an involuntary hold seems reasonable. As for the rest though:
The ortho thing is just bad training and makes no sense.
The ICU residents getting involved with the management of ANY patient who is still in the ED.... what? I have literally never heard of anything remotely like this.
I have never heard of NSGY doing an LP. At places I've worked, neuro would usually know how to do one, but they invariably wanted the ED to do it if the patient was still there, and if the ED attending couldn't get it, they just asked for an IR consult.

I'm not questioning your experience, I'm just saying that this is an impressive deviation from anything I've seen, and this includes both the ivory towers and community sites I've studied/trained/worked at. Where the hell was this?
 
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A little off topic, but I was really surprised by your experience.

The eye complaint thing? Sure, assuming it needs urgent intervention and you have them on hand.
IDK what you mean by "questionable psych patient" but having psych on hand to handle your patients who you put on an involuntary hold seems reasonable. As for the rest though:
The ortho thing is just bad training and makes no sense.
The ICU residents getting involved with the management of ANY patient who is still in the ED.... what? I have literally never heard of anything remotely like this.
I have never heard of NSGY doing an LP. At places I've worked, neuro would usually know how to do one, but they invariably wanted the ED to do it if the patient was still there, and if the ED attending couldn't get it, they just asked for an IR consult.

I'm not questioning your experience, I'm just saying that this is an impressive deviation from anything I've seen, and this includes both the ivory towers and community sites I've studied/trained/worked at. Where the hell was this?

I'm not going to throw any place under the bus, so I leave that program as being anonymous and I'd hopefully imagine it got better, it was a relatively new EM program at the time and that was like 12 years ago. It just left me with an impression of two extremes, one where the hospital had consultants doing everything, and the community place were I rotated where the ED mainly did just about everything in the ED. It was a big dichotomy, and I recognize that the two experiences were probably the extremes on both ends.
 
I was pretty biased for community EM programs based on my experience in med school. My home University based EM rotation was way too consultant heavy and I rarely saw EM residents doing procedures. There was a subspecialist/fellow for everything. When an eye complaint came in, they just consulted the ophthalmology resident. Every questionable psych patient was seen by psychiatry in the ED. Ortho reset every fracture, etc. When there was a sick resuscitation, the ICU residents came to the ED to do the resuscitation. I once saw both Neurosurgery and Neurology both consulted to try an LP on one patient. It was not at all what practicing real life EM is like based on my experience. My first community EM rotation literally shocked me, I had no idea the amount of responsibility EM residents could be given when compared to my home program. It drastically changed my approach to the match and I cancelled a ton of University based programs interviews eventually. I work in a Community EM program as faculty, and my resume is definitely good enough to get hired at a University based program if I wanted, but I doubt I'd ever go that route unless I was really looking to slow down. The pay in the community is so much better, and I still love the autonomy and procedures working in the community provides.
I very much appreciate how you stated that this is a generalization/n=1, however, as someone training at an academic program I can tell you this experience you are describing is extremely atypical and seems extreme to me, especially as it pertains to ICU teams coming to the ED to do resuscitations. I can promise you that at 99.9% of academic residency programs in the country this is not happening.

My recommendation is to go to an academic program. From the standpoint of prospects down the road, you keep all doors open. I can tell you at our academic shop, the vast majority of new attendings that are hired are academic trained, and they preferentially hire these grads over community grads. That being said, when it comes to getting jobs after graduating from our academic program, 70-80% of graduates go directly into the community without difficulty. Again, all options are available.

If you have a strong interest in EMS, you should strongly consider checking out academic programs that have EMS fellowships, so you can get strong exposure in residency. I thought I wanted to do critical care coming into residency and then changed to EMS after I had lots of EMS exposure at my program with the EMS faculty and other research opportunities. I believe that some of the opportunities I had you would be hard pressed to find at a community program.

There is a very inaccurate representation of academic programs as being "ivory tower" type places that are consultant heavy without much ED involvement in patient care in relatively sterile/ritzy neighborhoods and VIP patients. While there are some academic centers that fit that profile, many "academic" programs such as where I'm at are the primary safety net hospital for the county patient population, have high degrees of trauma with sick patients and more than enough procedures to go around. I have never consulted an ophthalmologist unless I have a specific question for them, and I get first crack at all reductions, airways, chest tubes, central lines etc. I see more penetrating trauma than I could have ever imagined.

Community programs provide good clinical training, and I don't deny the fact that procedural experience is great at these places (although I don't know if I buy into the fact that it's better). I would venture a guess that research, exposure to other more "niche" aspects of the specialty are lacking at these places, but I'm not 100% sure.

If EMS is your jam, you can still explore it AND do well in EMS coming from a community program, however I just think there are more opportunities during residency if you go the academic route.
 
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I trained at a community program and have held jobs at 2 university programs.

If you publish research, having trained in the community will not hold you back. If there is a specific university program that you want to end up at, then there will be specific factors to consider. But in general - I'd just rank the programs according to your other metrics.
 
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I'd definitely echo the sentiment that my experience was probably pretty atypical on the extreme end. I'm convinced the training you get in EM is really dependent more on the resident than anything to be honest, and truly I usually tell students to go wherever the feel like they fit in or where they want to live, because unless you are going to an at risk program, you aren't going to have any trouble getting a job. Even fellowships just aren't that competitive should you go that route. Now granted, if you have a niche interest like wanting to do big time research, then you are going to want to go to a program that can support that interest. But for the majority of students going into EM, this really is a non-issue because for the vast majority, the graduate and enter the workforce, they don't do fellowships or academics.

If you are motivated to work hard and see a ton of patients, you are going to be able to see a ton of patients and will be highly saught after when you exit residency regardless of where you train. If you have terrible time management skills, and go to a program that coddles you (community or academic), you are going to be awful and you'll be bounced from job to job. I've met some terrible locums from both community and big name University places that can't see 1.0 pt/hr, despite every intern at my program being able to do that regularly.
 
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Thank you all for the responses, I really appreciate it.
 
I cannot overstate the importance of geography in your residency choices. If you want to work in a competitive market at a high-paying SDG/community job, you need to pick a program that feeds into that market and has both grads and a proven track record in those jobs. All the big names in the world won't impress at many community shops, but personal connections will, and be aware that some programs even, or perhaps especially, some of the brand names may have a less than stellar reputation in such a market. If you want to work in NYC (not a competitive market, but an insular one), do a residency in NYC. If you want California, go to California. If you want Salt Lake or Denver, look at those residencies and also where their docs trained.

Echo what others have said on academic vs community and EMS. And please, as the lessons of the Flexner report are tragically forgotten, avoid anything for-profit, CMG etc.
 
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Although you have not mentioned a critical care interest, there are certainly some critical care fellowships in the IM-CCM world where a university-based residency carries a lot more weight than a community-based residency (even one with a "big" name in the EM world).

HH
 
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Just another plug for academic programs: there are a lot of academic/university programs that have community based rotations where you still get to see the "move the meat" aspect of community life. We rotate at a community ED over several months that is staffed by a CMG and are privy to all of the atrocities of a community setting that is run by a CMG. So it's not like these experiences are foreign to us.
 
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Can we just please acknowledge there is a big BIG difference in Community vs County? I see those lumped together and it drives me bananas.

Plug for county programs w/ strong university affiliation.
 
Can we just please acknowledge there is a big BIG difference in Community vs County? I see those lumped together and it drives me bananas.

Plug for county programs w/ strong university affiliation.
Fair.

However, there are many regions without a publically run/funded "county" hospital but yet patient's without insurance are still seen and managed in the community/university hospitals. These hospitals take Medicaid and still have to treat all patients walking through the ED. If what makes county hospitals special is the patient population then in many places that can be obtained in many non-county EDs. If you are considering the lack of resources as a benefit in a trial of fortitude then that's different and I agree there are significant differences with regards to training. That being said obviously big markets like NYC with the H&H hospitals will get a skewed version of this because they take care of most trauma/uninsured (despite the ACA making it a bit more complicated--particularly on the outpatient side). I think people often try to make county hospitals seem like a we-do-thoracotomies-all-the-time sort of place when in reality it is more a we-don't-have-enough-staff-to-draw-blood-all-the-time sort of place with maybe a few more thoracotomies compared to a place with more resources (consultants/residency programs). At the end of the day, I have seen badass physicians from both and agree it's more resident-dependent than anything.
 
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Fair.

However, there are many regions without a publically run/funded "county" hospital but yet patient's without insurance are still seen and managed in the community/university hospitals. These hospitals take Medicaid and still have to treat all patients walking through the ED. If what makes county hospitals special is the patient population then in many places that can be obtained in many non-county EDs. If you are considering the lack of resources as a benefit in a trial of fortitude then that's different and I agree there are significant differences with regards to training. That being said obviously big markets like NYC with the H&H hospitals will get a skewed version of this because they take care of most trauma/uninsured (despite the ACA making it a bit more complicated--particularly on the outpatient side). I think people often try to make county hospitals seem like a we-do-thoracotomies-all-the-time sort of place when in reality it is more a we-don't-have-enough-staff-to-draw-blood-all-the-time sort of place with maybe a few more thoracotomies compared to a place with more resources (consultants/residency programs). At the end of the day, I have seen badass physicians from both and agree it's more resident-dependent than anything.

I'm in no way stating that badass EM docs aren't made outside the county setting.

I'm currently training in a place however with functionality no subspecialty backup. While I'm not doing daily thoracotomies, I am doing other pretty unique procedures regularly: rongeur, suprabubics, burr eye FB, chest tubes a plenty -- to name a few.

When your entire population has zero money, and you can't recruit more than bare bones backup to be "on call." And said specialists won't come in for torsion, occular pressures of 80... Well, I would argue that makes pretty unique training. Something a little different at least than the majority of community programs.
 
I'm in no way stating that badass EM docs aren't made outside the county setting.

I'm currently training in a place however with functionality no subspecialty backup. While I'm not doing daily thoracotomies, I am doing other pretty unique procedures regularly: rongeur, suprabubics, burr eye FB, chest tubes a plenty -- to name a few.

When your entire population has zero money, and you can't recruit more than bare bones backup to be "on call." And said specialists won't come in for torsion, occular pressures of 80... Well, I would argue that makes pretty unique training. Something a little different at least than the majority of community programs.
You can temporize elevate IOP, but interesting choice from a urologist to not go to the OR for confirmed torsion if manual detorsion fails.

I wouldn't say this is unique to a county setting. Some county hospitals have an academic bend. Many community-based residencies have no specialty backup, especially after hours.
 
I'm in no way stating that badass EM docs aren't made outside the county setting.

I'm currently training in a place however with functionality no subspecialty backup. While I'm not doing daily thoracotomies, I am doing other pretty unique procedures regularly: rongeur, suprabubics, burr eye FB, chest tubes a plenty -- to name a few.

When your entire population has zero money, and you can't recruit more than bare bones backup to be "on call." And said specialists won't come in for torsion, occular pressures of 80... Well, I would argue that makes pretty unique training. Something a little different at least than the majority of community programs.

I kind of figured you meant increased procedural experience.

Burr--usually I just take the FB with a needle and leave the burring to somebody in the office if the remnants don't work themselves.. I did have a few attendings in residency who liked doing it. When I worked at a place with ophtho 24/7 they would leave this for the follow-up appointment. Seems like a waste of time to be burring UNLESS you couldn't get it out with a needle and then had to grind it out. Love that procedure...very cool you did a lot of these.

Chest tubes--Yea we should all be doing these.

Rongeur--I think doing partial amputation injuries are more time consuming than people think it is going to be. If it's more than a cm of bone and/or they need a complex flap closure I would be finding a hand surgeon unless I was super rural and worked in a sleepy ED where I could run away to mess around for an hour. Would not try to harvest a flap. Did you get trained on how to do V-Y flaps and stuff? Do wish I did more training with this initially.....so if that's something that is happening at the big county programs across the county all the time then I think that is important to note.

Glaucoma--Sure we can medically manage this but if the pressure doesn't go down they should get laser iridotomy. Why wouldn't you transfer this patient to somewhere that had ophtho or at least ger a follow-up plan in the next 24-48 hours? Trauma-related increased IOP is a different story.

Suprapubic cath--You mean starting a fresh one? Did a coude not work? Did Urology tell you to do this over the phone or not pick up? Never had to do this. I would be curious to see how many people graduate residency doing this.

Torsion--What do you do when the likely >50% times manual detorsion didn't work, did urology refuse to come in still or did you transfer?

So if a patient has an epidural do you also do a burr hole or would you just transfer them? I am half-joking.......

Do you think the more infrequent/out of scope procedures are done at county residencies with university affiliations (i.e. Emory-Grady, NYU-Bellevue, USC-LAC, etc)?
 
Subspecialty backup can either be a strength or a weakness for a program.

Residents at my program have placed a handful of SP tubes because we have a group of urologists who are available and willing to teach. At other programs that are busy and/or relationships with consulting services are not good, you may just end up consulting urology for everything and not get the same experience. Or you may not have any subspecialty backup and get zero experience in these areas all together because you transfer.

I may have mentioned earlier in this thread that the academic/county hybrid is really probably the best model. There are a handful of programs that fit this model and IMO offer the best experience.

There is nothing unique about pure "county" programs. They have a deserving patient population and high burden of disease (both acute and chronic) with horrible social issues. The truth is, to use Chicago for example: Cook county is not the only hospital in the city that treats these county patients. U of Chicago and Christ will both see tons of county patients as well in their academic/community sites respectively, and still provide top notch care and great breadth of exposure for residents.

I personally lean towards well funded academic departments that have county patients because the resources and support staff are way better. When I rotated at a pure county hospital in med school, the residents were drawing labs, pushing patients to the scanner, and arguing with nursing facilities and home health aides to take care of patients. At a better funded academic site, you still get to take care of these patients, but you have social workers and other ancillary support to help offload all the other stuff so you can focus on learning how to be an EM doc.

My $0.02.
 
I kind of figured you meant increased procedural experience.

Burr--usually I just take the FB with a needle and leave the burring to somebody in the office if the remnants don't work themselves.. I did have a few attendings in residency who liked doing it. When I worked at a place with ophtho 24/7 they would leave this for the follow-up appointment. Seems like a waste of time to be burring UNLESS you couldn't get it out with a needle and then had to grind it out. Love that procedure...very cool you did a lot of these.

Chest tubes--Yea we should all be doing these.

Rongeur--I think doing partial amputation injuries are more time consuming than people think it is going to be. If it's more than a cm of bone and/or they need a complex flap closure I would be finding a hand surgeon unless I was super rural and worked in a sleepy ED where I could run away to mess around for an hour. Would not try to harvest a flap. Did you get trained on how to do V-Y flaps and stuff? Do wish I did more training with this initially.....so if that's something that is happening at the big county programs across the county all the time then I think that is important to note.

Glaucoma--Sure we can medically manage this but if the pressure doesn't go down they should get laser iridotomy. Why wouldn't you transfer this patient to somewhere that had ophtho or at least ger a follow-up plan in the next 24-48 hours? Trauma-related increased IOP is a different story.

Suprapubic cath--You mean starting a fresh one? Did a coude not work? Did Urology tell you to do this over the phone or not pick up? Never had to do this. I would be curious to see how many people graduate residency doing this.

Torsion--What do you do when the likely >50% times manual detorsion didn't work, did urology refuse to come in still or did you transfer?

So if a patient has an epidural do you also do a burr hole or would you just transfer them? I am half-joking.......

Do you think the more infrequent/out of scope procedures are done at county residencies with university affiliations (i.e. Emory-Grady, NYU-Bellevue, USC-LAC, etc)?

Again, not claiming to be the expert or trying to tell people what is the "best" training model. I'm a resident, I know limitations and that I'm essentially green. But to answer your questions...

Burr FB-- Why not? It's ridiculously easy, fast and arguably safer than using only a needle.

Rongeur -- I have done many, initially instructed by our hand specialists. We have hand on call, and they will come in depending. But looking forward into a community practice, time aside (as you could argue for any procedure) -- why not? Are you saying you would transfer all straight-forward deglovings? Why? Seems like a waste of time, money and press-ganey if a patient has to travel (sometimes hours) when all they really need is a good block, bedside procedure and closed-loop clinic follow-up.

Suprapubics -- Regular procedures where I am. Yes in setting where coude fails, urethral trauma, spinal injury - etc.

The glaucoma/torsion examples were just to highlight the level of difficulty/autonomy, for better or worse. I am sure not opening up someone's scrotum when manual detorsion/sedation fails. Generally this ends in multiple phone calls, arguments and a "How would you like me to document exactly what you said in the chart," conversation.

Yes, I am at a large County/University affiliated program.

Edit: And I do not draw my own labs nor transport patients. That being said I love Cook.

You take the good with the bad. There are certainly a plethora of social issues. It's not all rainbows and flowers here, but I wouldn't trade it. I have co-residents at other programs who are not even comfortable doing peritonsilar abscesses. That's not the practice I want.
 
Again, not claiming to be the expert or trying to tell people what is the "best" training model. I'm a resident, I know limitations and that I'm essentially green. But to answer your questions...

Burr FB-- Why not? It's ridiculously easy, fast and arguably safer than using only a needle.

Rongeur -- I have done many, initially instructed by our hand specialists. We have hand on call, and they will come in depending. But looking forward into a community practice, time aside (as you could argue for any procedure) -- why not? Are you saying you would transfer all straight-forward deglovings? Why? Seems like a waste of time, money and press-ganey if a patient has to travel (sometimes hours) when all they really need is a good block, bedside procedure and closed-loop clinic follow-up.

Suprapubics -- Regular procedures where I am. Yes in setting where coude fails, urethral trauma, spinal injury - etc.

The glaucoma/torsion examples were just to highlight the level of difficulty/autonomy, for better or worse. I am sure not opening up someone's scrotum when manual detorsion/sedation fails. Generally this ends in multiple phone calls, arguments and a "How would you like me to document exactly what you said in the chart," conversation.

Yes, I am at a large County/University affiliated program.

Edit: And I do not draw my own labs nor transport patients. That being said I love Cook.

You take the good with the bad. There are certainly a plethora of social issues. It's not all rainbows and flowers here, but I wouldn't trade it. I have co-residents at other programs who are not even comfortable doing peritonsilar abscesses. That's not the practice I want.

Thanks for the reply. I get what you're saying and agree with your general sentiments. I do think it is hard to figure out which programs will provide those sort of things and generally at a lot of places more obscure procedures will be based on the luck you have in getting them. Just a few responses.....

Burr--I just always was able to get it out with a needle except for a few times I needed burr. Never used the burr for the rust ring as I left that for follow-up. Next time I have one ill go back to the burr if I can find it in my community shop.

Hand Stuff--I've worked in a few places that didn't have a hand physician and local ortho wouldn't do hand. I would need to call the big city hospitals to get a hand surgeon on call, discuss the case, and agree to have the patient seen for follow-up. A lot of the time they would just say "send the patient to our ED" (because a resident would do the procedure for them and they didn't want to clean up some community EM docs mess) and usually, the patient would just have a family member drive them. Family/patient wasn't upset because you told them they were going a "hand specialist" and usually they understand the limitations of smaller hospitals. That is a big barrier for me as an attending working in more remote areas sometimes for a lot of more subspecialized care such as hand, ENT, urology, etc. If I am working at a place that I can easily refer somebody to, they can read my note, and address any of the potential complications, then I will do these procedures myself.

Suprapubic cath--I somehow made it through residency and multiple years of attending-hood without ever myself or urology needing to put a suprapubic cath on one of my patients in the ED. Crazy how experience can vary.

I think a key thing for any resident who does have exposure to the more esoteric things in addition to subspecialty back-up is to learn from them whether it's requesting to do PTAs, SP caths, or complex hand lacerations when subspecialists are around to walk you through it. If you have EM attendings that are comfortable with all those things even better. This is especially important if you train at an uber-academic place. Often I see residents not taking advantage of this and graduating missing some of those smaller procedures in their armamentarium.
 
I think people often try to make county hospitals seem like a we-do-thoracotomies-all-the-time sort of place when in reality it is more a we-don't-have-enough-staff-to-draw-blood-all-the-time sort of place with maybe a few more thoracotomies compared to a place with more resources (consultants/residency programs). At the end of the day, I have seen badass physicians from both and agree it's more resident-dependent than anything.
This. so much this.

The "pure" county places while often provide great training and produce strong EM physicians, is really not always as depicted on television. After rotating at two county places and one academic/county hybrid, I found the overall number of "critically" ill patients across the board to be roughly the same, while the county facilities had a lot more homelessness, malingering, and dispo nightmares.

I would argue that you should consider going to a county program if the mission of county medicine resonates within you: i.e. serve those without access to healthcare, be willing to work in resource limited environment with little to no support.

If your number one priority is "do as many thoracotomies as possible", you will A) likely be disappointed by only ranking county places and B) likely be disappointed by choosing EM as a specialty

If your number one goal is to receive strong clinical training, you can find that at both county and academic sites, and even then, 99.9% of it will be dependent on you and how hard you push yourself in residency.

Just as a side note: while the majority of the most "well respected" of county programs that are "highest ranked" have lots to do with the fact that they were the first programs, with the most alumni, and therefore have cultivated large reputations with extensive alumni networks. That shouldn't be a knock on many of the academic programs, most of which are newer, but still offer great opportunities.

I don't really buy into "reputation" of programs in EM. Especially because the ones that I saw/interviewed at with best "reputations" were really not the fit for me.
 
LMAO @ Rongeur in the ED. Are you serious? Hand is a high-liability area. Unless you are in the unique situation like askamsky51, to have done a ton of these, I would never ever do it. Why not just transfer and let a proper hand surgeon sort it out? My liability risk to doing that is close to zero, not to mention the length of time needed would take me away from the rest of the ED forever. No thanks,

Also not going to touch suprapubics. Urology consult or transfer if none available. Done and on to the next patient.
 
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I totally agree. There are some procedures that don't need to be done right this second, and can wait a few minutes for someone with the specialty skills to do them IMO. Acute life threat? Sure, I'll plunge a needle into someones pericardium. Routine effusion in a hemodynamically stable patient? I think that can wait for someone else to drain. I generally have the thought before doing a risky procedure that I don't regularly do often, is it actually emergent to do right this second, and if the answer is no, then there is zero reason not to involve someone who does do that procedure routinely.
 
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LMAO @ Rongeur in the ED. Are you serious? Hand is a high-liability area. Unless you are in the unique situation like askamsky51, to have done a ton of these, I would never ever do it. Why not just transfer and let a proper hand surgeon sort it out? My liability risk to doing that is close to zero, not to mention the length of time needed would take me away from the rest of the ED forever. No thanks,

Also not going to touch suprapubics. Urology consult or transfer if none available. Done and on to the next patient.

Yeah, whats up with the Rongeur stories and EMRAP episodes on your friendly neighborhood EM doc carrying out digit amputations in the ED. Can you imagine a more time consuming procedure or less sterile environment for something like that? I'm not saying I couldn't do it, or might not be willing to do it if I were in an ED out in the wilderness with no specialist nearby and a guy with no way to get to them except by reindeer sled, but any other time...absolutely no way. Totally outside my scope. Ridiculously high medicolegal risk. The absolute first person any orthopod is going to throw under the bus for a bad outcome is going to be the EP.

I can't imagine the risk some of you are taking on if you are deciding to do routine digit amputations in the ED. No thank you.
 
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Yeah, whats up with the Rongeur stories and EMRAP episodes on your friendly neighborhood EM doc carrying out digit amputations in the ED. Can you imagine a more time consuming procedure or less sterile environment for something like that? I'm not saying I couldn't do it, or might not be willing to do it if I were in an ED out in the wilderness with no specialist nearby and a guy with no way to get to them except by reindeer sled, but any other time...absolutely no way. Totally outside my scope. Ridiculously high medicolegal risk. The absolute first person any orthopod is going to throw under the bus for a bad outcome is going to be the EP.

I can't imagine the risk some of you are taking on if you are deciding to do routine digit amputations in the ED. No thank you.

Fair enough. It isn't a procedure I would do obviously prior to consultation. Essentially I'm only taking enough for closure and wound approximation. If they need revision later that's fine. Sterile environment or not they came in with an open fracture. That isn't sterile to begin with. Arguably the hand is highly vascularized anyhow. It's little different from closing any other open injury in that regard. It needs to be done. If its overly complicated I'm not doing it.

The entire point of my initial reply was not to argue about particulars of individual procedures -- my point was to mention there were more than two distinct training environments. That's all.
 
Fair enough. It isn't a procedure I would do obviously prior to consultation. Essentially I'm only taking enough for closure and wound approximation. If they need revision later that's fine. Sterile environment or not they came in with an open fracture. That isn't sterile to begin with. Arguably the hand is highly vascularized anyhow. It's little different from closing any other open injury in that regard. It needs to be done. If its overly complicated I'm not doing it.

The entire point of my initial reply was not to argue about particulars of individual procedures -- my point was to mention there were more than two distinct training environments. That's all.

I don't mean it personal dude and I can remember the days of residency when I was scutted out by plastics or ortho over the telephone and coerced into doing some lengthy and complicated procedures that had no business being done in the ED. If you're in residency, I'm honestly not surprised. In a way, I'm sure it's good experience. That being said, there are a lot of things I used to do in residency that I wouldn't do now. I just didn't really know any better then. You'll probably find the same as you traverse you're career post residency. Carry on!
 
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