Competitiveness of Radiology vs Gen Surg

[ValleyRad2018]

Hey guys, long time user, took a leave for a while and now I'm back for some much needed insight.

Here's the situation - I completed an internship in general surgery (categorical) and plan to switch to radiology. I am applying this cycle. Unlike surgery, which I was told by my PD had the most competitive year ever in 2016, I don't have a good gauge on the competitiveness of DR, so it's been difficult to select a solid, but balanced, mix of programs for my application. I've read multiple rank list, but I guess I'm more trying to get a sense of how top/mid/lower tier programs compare to general surgery.

I was fairly competitive for gen surg, just don't want to underestimate radiology and get trounced.

Thanks for your help!

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[tartrate]

Top radiology programs remain super competitive. Not to denounce the field, but general surgery is not even in the same tier of competitiveness. Smaller names and programs in less desirable areas are less competitive as you would expect like in all specialties.

 

[redoitall]

From the numbers point of view, you have nothing to worry about. The biggest issue you will face is to explain the switch for Gen Surg to Rads. I would work on that as far as statement and interview. You also need a rad letter.
As for competitive programs, I would say aim high. For the programs you had mentioned in a previous version of your post (unless I misread), I am not familiar with all of them, but I think Vandy & Colorado are fairly doable. As for Duke, it is another story. From last year, it is hard to say how Duke sends invites or based on what criteria as many very solid applicants didn't get invited.
The bottom line is your application should be solid, assuming you have sound reasons for the switch and can explain why now radiology is the right choice (what makes you think you won't change your mind later? you did it once). Just playing the devil's advocate and by no mean trying to judge. I would just work on that. If anything, this is perhaps your weakest point, but again, up to you to turn that into a positive. It is all about packaging.
Apply broadly, I would aim high though.
To your original question comparing Gen Surg and Rad, no idea, and I don't think many of us will know because we didn't really apply to surgery last year. I guess all specialties are competitive when applying to top academic programs. So if you were competitive in Gen Surg, you should equally be so (more or less) in Radiology. I would mention 2 things
- IR, it seems quite competitive, again program dependent, but with 1 year of Surgery, perhaps it can give an edge. I would consider perhaps applying to some of these. That said, if you didn't like Gen Surg, you may not like IR.
- Things change year to year. Last year PM&R and Psych which were not viewed as particularly competitive became extremely competitive with many fit applicants not matching into these specialties. I doubt Radiology will be like that this year and see an extreme surge of competitiveness, but who knows. Radiology is competitive. Not as much as before, but still.

Good luck.

 

[Cognovi]

Radiology in 2017 is absolutely in the same tier of competitiveness as general surgery. Update your perception with the latest Charting Outcomes report from the NRMP. http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Charting-Outcomes-US-Allopathic-Seniors-2016.pdf

 

[qwerty89]

Last year PM&R and Psych which were not viewed as particularly competitive became extremely competitive with many fit applicants not matching into these specialties.

It did not get "extremely competitive" by any stretch of the imagination. Yes it was slightly more competitive, but nothing out of the ordinary given the increase in overall applicants (more US MD/DOs applying due to more graduates). The baseline for every specialty is getting more competitive.

 

[Tiger100]

Radiology has always welcomed people from other fields. In the old days in 70s and 80s it was very common for people to switch. When I was a resident in 90s, two of my classmates were transfers from other fields, one from neurosurgery and one from Medicine.

I don't know about application process and competitiveness but will give you a few advices:

- Make sure you want to switch. People who have switched for right reasons are very happy. Don't switch just because your current program director is mean or your classmates are not good enough.

- Radiology has a lot of opportunities. You can read films the whole day, you can become IR in academics doing IR all time, you can become IR in community where you do half IR and half DR or you can become a mammographer which is similar to having a clinic. As a result, I think everybody can find something interesting that fit their personality in this field. This is not the case in surgery.

- Be prepared to answer all sort of questions about your reasons to switch. This is going to be the biggest part of your application.

Good Luck and welcome.

 

[RadsFTW123]

Radiology has always welcomed people from other fields. In the old days in 70s and 80s it was very common for people to switch. When I was a resident in 90s, two of my classmates were transfers from other fields, one from neurosurgery and one from Medicine.

I don't know about application process and competitiveness but will give you a few advices:

- Make sure you want to switch. People who have switched for right reasons are very happy. Don't switch just because your current program director is mean or your classmates are not good enough.

- Radiology has a lot of opportunities. You can read films the whole day, you can become IR in academics doing IR all time, you can become IR in community where you do half IR and half DR or you can become a mammographer which is similar to having a clinic. As a result, I think everybody can find something interesting that fit their personality in this field. This is not the case in surgery.

- Be prepared to answer all sort of questions about your reasons to switch. This is going to be the biggest part of your application.

Good Luck and welcome.

You'll do great. Honestly I think gen surg is more competitive than rads now.

 

[guytakingboards]

Radiology in 2017 is absolutely in the same tier of competitiveness as general surgery. Update your perception with the latest Charting Outcomes report from the NRMP. http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Charting-Outcomes-US-Allopathic-Seniors-2016.pdf

By board scores the stats of matched applicants are pretty similar. But the number of unmatched gen surg applicants dwarfs that of radiology. That could simply be a matter of better self-selection among the radiology pool but by % of unmatched, gen surg seems more competitive.

 

[ValleyRad2018]

Radiology has always welcomed people from other fields. In the old days in 70s and 80s it was very common for people to switch. When I was a resident in 90s, two of my classmates were transfers from other fields, one from neurosurgery and one from Medicine.

I don't know about application process and competitiveness but will give you a few advices:

- Make sure you want to switch. People who have switched for right reasons are very happy. Don't switch just because your current program director is mean or your classmates are not good enough.

- Radiology has a lot of opportunities. You can read films the whole day, you can become IR in academics doing IR all time, you can become IR in community where you do half IR and half DR or you can become a mammographer which is similar to having a clinic. As a result, I think everybody can find something interesting that fit their personality in this field. This is not the case in surgery.

- Be prepared to answer all sort of questions about your reasons to switch. This is going to be the biggest part of your application.

Good Luck and welcome.

I sincerely appreciate the feedback and advice. In hindsight, I realize my question is difficult to answer for most people who have not applied to both specialties, but the match data does show that the two are strikingly similar in terms of the numbers. To address a few issues that have come up so far:

1) I initially added stats and other pertinent details but revised the post in an effort to maintain anonymity. To summarize, Step 1/2/3 250s, top 40 NIH med school, well-known residency, average research/ECs. Good standing at former program.

2) I realize the central question of my application will revolve around my decision to switch, so I devoted a substantial portion of my PS to explain myself. I think my reasons are solid - this is not a 'grass is greener on the other side' type of situation. I genuinely want to be a radiologist, and it wasn't until residency that I was able to clearly identify my interest in the field. It is much more that I want to be a radiologist than that I don't want to be a surgeon (although, obviously there is some of the latter given the switch)

3) I only have letters from surgeons. There is simply no way for me to get a rads letter?? I have professional relationships with radiologists but not to the extent that I would feel comfortable asking for a letter. Will this be a problem?

4) As for IR, it's certainly something that has crossed my mind, but my plan is to apply DR only with the option of an IR fellowship if it's something I really enjoy during residency.

Thanks again!

 

[redoitall]

2) I realize the central question of my application will revolve around my decision to switch, so I devoted a substantial portion of my PS to explain myself. I think my reasons are solid - this is not a 'grass is greener on the other side' type of situation. I genuinely want to be a radiologist, and it wasn't until residency that I was able to clearly identify my interest in the field. It is much more that I want to be a radiologist than that I don't want to be a surgeon (although, obviously there is some of the latter given the switch)

Well grass is definitely greener on the radiology side! Glad you are working on having that clear. This is your main issue once you have interviews.

3) I only have letters from surgeons. There is simply no way for me to get a rads letter?? I have professional relationships with radiologists but not to the extent that I would feel comfortable asking for a letter. Will this be a problem?

This is in my opinion may be an issue. You really have to try to get one, in fact, I am wondering if it is not a requirement. I don't think that any specialty would look favorably on an applicant without a letter from that specialty. You really have to try and talk to the radiologists even if you don't feel comfortable. Generally radiologists are extremely nice people (kind of part of why I decided as well). Explain your situation and get a letter. Given the timeline, I would also try and ask if they had any contacts they could reach out to any of the programs you want to go to. A phone call is worth a lot and almost guarantees an interview. I know I may sound aggressive and pushy, but more is better than less. Plus if you try and they don't want to help, what do you risk? Not having a letter, well you don't have one now...
A final option is to cold email the main programs you target and explain / or inquire about the need for a rad letter.
I am not a PD or associate PD, and I hope one will chip in here. But honestly (and as much as I understand your circumstance), I would make it a priority to have a letter from a radiologist. You can also reach out to your department at your school and see if they can help.
Good luck.

 

[NavyDoc23]

Well grass is definitely greener on the radiology side! Glad you are working on having that clear. This is your main issue once you have interviews.



This is in my opinion may be an issue. You really have to try to get one, in fact, I am wondering if it is not a requirement. I don't think that any specialty would look favorably on an applicant without a letter from that specialty. You really have to try and talk to the radiologists even if you don't feel comfortable. Generally radiologists are extremely nice people (kind of part of why I decided as well). Explain your situation and get a letter. Given the timeline, I would also try and ask if they had any contacts they could reach out to any of the programs you want to go to. A phone call is worth a lot and almost guarantees an interview. I know I may sound aggressive and pushy, but more is better than less. Plus if you try and they don't want to help, what do you risk? Not having a letter, well you don't have one now...
A final option is to cold email the main programs you target and explain / or inquire about the need for a rad letter.
I am not a PD or associate PD, and I hope one will chip in here. But honestly (and as much as I understand your circumstance), I would make it a priority to have a letter from a radiologist. You can also reach out to your department at your school and see if they can help.
Good luck.

I think the bigger problem is he/she only has surgery letters. I don't have any radiology letters, and I've been getting interviews (n=1). Now, I don't have all surgery letters, i have a mix, but was told by my radiology adviser that it isn't necessary since most rads letters say the same thing.

 

[ValleyRad2018]

I think the bigger problem is he/she only has surgery letters. I don't have any radiology letters, and I've been getting interviews (n=1). Now, I don't have all surgery letters, i have a mix, but was told by my radiology adviser that it isn't necessary since most rads letters say the same thing.

It's a tough spot, because as a categorical surgery resident, you mostly work with surgeons. I don't have the luxury of doing a rotation to get a letter. I had a variety of different letters applying out of med school - I could always ask them for help, but it won't be a letter from a radiologist.

 

[ValleyRad2018]

I think the bigger problem is he/she only has surgery letters. I don't have any radiology letters, and I've been getting interviews (n=1). Now, I don't have all surgery letters, i have a mix, but was told by my radiology adviser that it isn't necessary since most rads letters say the same thing.

Also, I have received interviews as well (n=2), so clearly it isn't a deal breaker for some. I hope it isn't a problem for most programs.

 

[redoitall]

Also, I have received interviews as well (n=2), so clearly it isn't a deal breaker for some. I hope it isn't a problem for most programs.

Glad to hear.
Again, if you don't see an invite from a program you really want to go to, I would reach out to them. This might help.
Best of luck.

 

[ValleyRad2018]

Glad to hear.
Again, if you don't see an invite from a program you really want to go to, I would reach out to them. This might help.
Best of luck.

Thanks! Looking forward to joining the ranks.