Competitiveness

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What do you guys think the cutoff is to be considered "competitive" for any and every specialty? Considering many third years still have no idea what field they want to go into, it's good to leave all doors wide open.

 

[J ROD]

250+

 

[Psai]

240+
The competitive things average out around mid 240s from what I've seen

 

[BlueJay25]

I would agree with the above posts and say anything between 240-250 makes you competitive for the "competitive specialties".

EDIT: take a look at the first few pages in first aid where the give nice summary charts and facts about step scores and matching

 

[J ROD]

I say 250+ bc it clears them all

 

[rodmichael82]

240+
The competitive things average out around mid 240s from what I've seen

Well then what about some score like 239 lol

 

[SBR249]

249.3, because that's the score in my dreams and nothing held me back

 

[Phloston]

I know someone on a residency admissions committee for a competitive specialty at an upper-tier, non-Ivy school, and I've played the game of 21 questions. I won't say the specialty for anonymity reasons but let's just say it's either plastics, rads, derm or ortho.

At this particular school, applicants are graded from 1 to 5 in various categories (e.g., research, Step1, LoRs, etc.). The sum of the scores determines who gets interviews.

Scores in the 240s are viewed as "eh, no big deal. Lots of people apply with 240s." --> 3/5

Scores in the 250s are viewed as "pretty good scores." --> 4/5

Any score above 260 is viewed as "impressive."

Regarding 270+ scores, they're incredibly rare, but interestingly not viewed as necessarily more impressive than 260+ scores because of the awareness of steepness of curves above the 260 mark. Basically above 260 all applicants are viewed as equal Step1-wise and receive a "5".

Step2CK goes into a miscellaneous category and doesn't help unless the Step1 score is really low and then there's a dramatic improvement.

Yet again, this is one particular school for one specialty only. But hopefully that helps,

 

[rodmichael82]

I know someone on a residency admissions committee for a competitive specialty at an upper-tier, non-Ivy school, and I've played the game of 21 questions. I won't say the specialty for anonymity reasons but let's just say it's either plastics, rads, derm or ortho.

At this particular school, applicants are graded from 1 to 5 in various categories (e.g., research, Step1, LoRs, etc.). The sum of the scores determines who gets interviews.

Scores in the 240s are viewed as "eh, no big deal. Lots of people apply with 240s." --> 3/5

Scores in the 250s are viewed as "pretty good scores." --> 4/5

Any score above 260 is viewed as "impressive."

Regarding 270+ scores, they're incredibly rare, but interestingly not viewed as necessarily more impressive than 260+ scores because of the awareness of steepness of curves above the 260 mark. Basically above 260 all applicants are viewed as equal Step1-wise and receive a "5".

Step2CK goes into a miscellaneous category and doesn't help unless the Step1 score is really low and then there's a dramatic improvement.

Yet again, this is one particular school for one specialty only. But hopefully that helps,

Well what about border mine scores like in the upper 230s? For example a 239 is not much different from a 240 but is it viewed inferiorly?

 

[oingoboingo]

And how do you think these "competitiveness" cutoffs shift for the DO applicants?

 

[GadRads]

I know someone on a residency admissions committee for a competitive specialty at an upper-tier, non-Ivy school, and I've played the game of 21 questions. I won't say the specialty for anonymity reasons but let's just say it's either plastics, rads, derm or ortho.

At this particular school, applicants are graded from 1 to 5 in various categories (e.g., research, Step1, LoRs, etc.). The sum of the scores determines who gets interviews.

Scores in the 240s are viewed as "eh, no big deal. Lots of people apply with 240s." --> 3/5

Scores in the 250s are viewed as "pretty good scores." --> 4/5

Any score above 260 is viewed as "impressive."

Regarding 270+ scores, they're incredibly rare, but interestingly not viewed as necessarily more impressive than 260+ scores because of the awareness of steepness of curves above the 260 mark. Basically above 260 all applicants are viewed as equal Step1-wise and receive a "5".

Step2CK goes into a miscellaneous category and doesn't help unless the Step1 score is really low and then there's a dramatic improvement.

Yet again, this is one particular school for one specialty only. But hopefully that helps,

Glad that this is for a "competitive specialty at an upper-tier, non-Ivy school", because some of us have little interest in this self-fellating exercise. I can't believe people are waxing over the minuscule difference between a 250 and a 260. smh.

 

[Apoplexy__]

I know someone on a residency admissions committee for a competitive specialty at an upper-tier, non-Ivy school, and I've played the game of 21 questions. I won't say the specialty for anonymity reasons but let's just say it's either plastics, rads, derm or ortho.

At this particular school, applicants are graded from 1 to 5 in various categories (e.g., research, Step1, LoRs, etc.). The sum of the scores determines who gets interviews.

Scores in the 240s are viewed as "eh, no big deal. Lots of people apply with 240s." --> 3/5

Scores in the 250s are viewed as "pretty good scores." --> 4/5

Any score above 260 is viewed as "impressive."

Regarding 270+ scores, they're incredibly rare, but interestingly not viewed as necessarily more impressive than 260+ scores because of the awareness of steepness of curves above the 260 mark. Basically above 260 all applicants are viewed as equal Step1-wise and receive a "5".

Step2CK goes into a miscellaneous category and doesn't help unless the Step1 score is really low and then there's a dramatic improvement.

Yet again, this is one particular school for one specialty only. But hopefully that helps,

I'd be fascinated to hear the rest of the 21 questions you asked. How did their 1-5 system work in other categories?

 

[medstudent7860]

Well what about border mine scores like in the upper 230s? For example a 239 is not much different from a 240 but is it viewed inferiorly?

I have the same question. I got a 247 and I'm not sure if it's just lumped into the "240's" range or if it's viewed a bit better since it's in the upper 240's? So many people have gotten scores in the 250's and 260's that I feel like my score isn't very competitive

 

[J ROD]

A 247 is a very good score. Do not let SDN fool you. You should be competitive for everything. I would worry about other parts of the app.

 

[DermViser]

Well what about border mine scores like in the upper 230s? For example a 239 is not much different from a 240 but is it viewed inferiorly?

The specialty he's talking about is quite different than most specialties.

 

[DermViser]

This thread is absolutely hilarious.

 

[Law2Doc]

What do you guys think the cutoff is to be considered "competitive" for any and every specialty? Considering many third years still have no idea what field they want to go into, it's good to leave all doors wide open.

In my experience the people who ask questions like this invariably score a 210 and then declare they were never interested in competitive fields anyhow...

Here's the way it works. Have a couple of target specialties in mind at different ranges. You study hard and score as well as you can. Then you take stock. You don't go into it thinking I need a 250 for X but only need a 240 for Y etc. That's pointless.

And to be honest even if you end up wanting something not very competitive a high score is still going to help you get a Better place within that specialty. Every year some if the top scorers at every med school go into IM. The top IM residencies are filled with people who could have done derm.

 

[InVivo]

Well what about border mine scores like in the upper 230s? For example a 239 is not much different from a 240 but is it viewed inferiorly?

That's what I've been think about recently, too. There seems to be this innate tendency to group scores psychologically based on discrete cutoffs (e.g. every 5 points, 10 points) that make Step much like letter grades (A,B,C,F). This is why I liked the MCAT scoring a little more, because there wasn't quite the same thing except for under and above 30 (scores near 35 were extremely good all around, and scores around 40 were amazing all around).

I don't know if the admissions people think the same that many of us do when we look at scores, though. If there is some formula for determining how they rank students, then 239 should basically equal 240. But if there is a cut-off step score for residencies, I'd bet that, in your example given, 240 would be much more likely to be a cut-off than 239.

 

[Lefty Doodle]

Along the same lines, I did a lot better on Step 1 than I was expecting to. Now I'm thinking, should I be considering things like derm or urology, things I didn't even schedule in my third year because I thought my step 1 score would make it an uphill climb. But reading more about trying to capitalize on a good score, it seems like it certainly doesn't exclude me from certain specialties, bu I also have to have other parts of the application in place. Who does one talk to about trying to get more exposure to certain specialties and what to do? Program directors?

 

[DCBFan]

That's what I've been think about recently, too. There seems to be this innate tendency to group scores psychologically based on discrete cutoffs (e.g. every 5 points, 10 points) that make Step much like letter grades (A,B,C,F). This is why I liked the MCAT scoring a little more, because there wasn't quite the same thing except for under and above 30 (scores near 35 were extremely good all around, and scores around 40 were amazing all around).

I don't know if the admissions people think the same that many of us do when we look at scores, though. If there is some formula for determining how they rank students, then 239 should basically equal 240. But if there is a cut-off step score for residencies, I'd bet that, in your example given, 240 would be much more likely to be a cut-off than 239.

I'm sure that during a careful analysis of two applicants, one with a 240 and one with a 239, they would be considered essentially equal scores. Where that one point matters is for the early stratification you might encounter, and especially if a program has an automatic cutoff.

I don't think very many places have an auto cutoff of 240+ though, you'd miss out on a lot of stellar candidates that way. Any program with such a cutoff would seem to be too stats-obsessed to care about bringing in the right people, and I'd want to avoid it anyway.

 

[Psai]

In my experience the people who ask questions like this invariably score a 210 and then declare they were never interested in competitive fields anyhow...

Here's the way it works. Have a couple of target specialties in mind at different ranges. You study hard and score as well as you can. Then you take stock. You don't go into it thinking I need a 250 for X but only need a 240 for Y etc. That's pointless.

And to be honest even if you end up wanting something not very competitive a high score is still going to help you get a Better place within that specialty. Every year some if the top scorers at every med school go into IM. The top IM residencies are filled with people who could have done derm.

Hmm yeah I did well and I thought I would be more interested in other things if i got a certain score but I'm pretty sure I'm sticking with anesthesia. I'm probably making a mistake though

 

[4thQTHailMary]

Hmm yeah I did well and I thought I would be more interested in other things if i got a certain score but I'm pretty sure I'm sticking with anesthesia. I'm probably making a mistake though

Nope, anesthesia is pretty cush. Nothing wrong with that at all, imo.

 

[Laplace]

I'm starting to think the scores required for certain specialties are much higher than reported. The latest Charting Outcomes uses 2011 data back when the mean was a 220. Now it's a 228. I'm wondering if 270+ is the new 260+ because I know a handful of people who broke the 270 barrier.

 

[Donald Juan]

I'm starting to think the scores required for certain specialties are much higher than reported. The latest Charting Outcomes uses 2011 data back when the mean was a 220. Now it's a 228. I'm wondering if 270+ is the new 260+ because I know a handful of people who broke the 270 barrier.

Don't forget that the data on the 2011 match would be referring to people that took their boards in 2009, when the mean was 218 😉. I wouldn't worry about things upward shifting too much, as the boards usually have a left shift with a quick cutoff in the higher score range.

Now onto the topic at hand, I don't think that a 239 (or 238, or hell, maybe even a 237) alone precludes you from entering into any particular specialty. Does it mean you are "competitive" for all of them? Definitely not. But a 239 with a decent overall application and a willingness to go anywhere should make any specialty a possibility. Likewise, it's not like a 260 alone means you're a shoe-in for every specialty. There is definitely more to the application.

 

[Double A]

The latest data I've seen show that plastics had the highest avg step 1 score at 250. So that seems like your best measure.

 

[Petypet]

This thread is absolutely hilarious.

I second this. Reminds me of a sketch put on by George Carlin entitled Pricky waving or the 'bigger di*k theory". Plastics has an average of 250 in 2011, which means about 1/2 are below the 250 margin.

I just recently received my step 1 score, and its actually comical of what real life is like vs SDN. Those very very few of us that got above 250 are almost embarrassed to talk about our scores. Moreover, I hear more and more people talking about their scores in the 215-235 range.

I think in the real world, 230 opens most doors save PRS, most derm, neuro surg, ortho, ENT, and rad onc. Keep in mind people still match to specialities like ortho with a sub 230, and the SDN factor makes it seem that every program is of harvard-like competitiveness. In 2011 61 people matched to ortho with a sub 230! Moving on, 240 opens most doors save PRS, and 250 is all inclusive. That means with a 230, according to the 2011 match outcomes you can still match (with relative ease of matching somewhere) gas, rads, EM, FM, surg, IM, neuro, peds, ob/gyn, path, pm&r, and psych. Further, most of these specialities are even more inclusive of even a sub 230.

Really need more people with sub 240's giving their test/match experiences, rather than those ivy-leaguers that talk to "top tier" PDs about how a 240 is only MEH.

 

[DermViser]

In my experience the people who ask questions like this invariably score a 210 and then declare they were never interested in competitive fields anyhow...Here's the way it works. Have a couple of target specialties in mind at different ranges. You study hard and score as well as you can. Then you take stock. You don't go into it thinking I need a 250 for X but only need a 240 for Y etc. That's pointless. And to be honest even if you end up wanting something not very competitive a high score is still going to help you get a Better place within that specialty. Every year some if the top scorers at every med school go into IM. The top IM residencies are filled with people who could have done derm.

^^THIS. There are many things that go into specialty selection. To go into Step 1 saying I needed a ___ score to get X but only need a ____ score to get Y is a terrible way to approach this exam, yet it happens year after year.