Complete List of Forensic Pathology Fellowship Programs

[zao275]

A complete list of Forensic Pathology Fellowship programs is now available on the Pathology Resident Wiki:

http://pathinfo.wikia.com/wiki/Forensic_Pathology_Fellowship_Directory

I realize that NAME already has a very thorough list, but that list lacks links to program websites and doesn't allow users to comment on the training programs (just thought I would address that before anyone brings it up). It does seem that many of the programs do not have a webpage for their forensic path fellowship program (I was amazed at this!).

If any programs are missing from the wiki, or if you know the web address to a program website, please add it to the wiki or post it here. I know there are a lot of forensic pathologists on this forum, so I am counting on you guys to help me out by adding info and program reviews to the wiki (please?).

Thanks!

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[KCShaw]

A lot of programs aren't directly medical school affiliated/administrated, so don't have their website support. Those that -do- have a website in a lot of cases are little more than a comment on a local government page, and therefore relatively difficult to administrate and update. And sometimes difficult to search. But, for the record, it doesn't mean the programs aren't otherwise up-to-date, appropriately funded, etc. Most simply don't otherwise see the need to have a website. (This has been changing in the last few years, about an eon after everyone else of course, but more offices are trying to use the web to help them limit "unecessary" phone calls and help them with public image.)

 

[zao275]

That makes sense, KCShaw. Perhaps I should email all of the directors to let them know about the wiki. That would be an easy and free way for them to make info about their program available to the public. Also, in another thread, someone mentioned that some fellowships may not be NAME accredited. Are there many of those? Should I add them to the list on the wiki (or are they programs that people may want to avoid)?

 

[KCShaw]

The list of NAME accredited offices is on their website, here:

http://thename.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=67&Itemid=69

It's absolutely worth taking into consideration when looking at fellowships. However, until somewhat recently there hasn't been a "big" push towards having every office accredited -- but for the most part places with fellowships are leading the way. And even among offices that want to accomplish it, they may not have the resources to address every necessary component, or may even have conflicts with state law (I believe Utah? or Oklahoma? law keeps the medical examiner out of motor vehicle cases unless law enforcement requests them; unless they're able to get an exemption, they can't be accredited because they "miss" too many accidental deaths). Common problems include too many cases for the number of medical examiners on staff, and facility issues due to outdated buildings. While not necessarily every good training program is NAME accredited, being NAME accredited shows a willingness to go above and beyond basic requirements (hardly any jurisdictions require their offices to attain or maintain NAME accreditation). If you're looking at a non-NAME-accredited program, ask them why they're not accredited. I'd rather them say they're trying or have tried but can't because of some specific reason, rather than they can't be bothered to try because they don't "have" to.

Offhand I don't know what fellowship programs are at non-NAME-accredited offices; the big ones that immediately come to mind are on the list of accredited/provisional (several places are moving into new buildings or have other work-in-progress to address issues)/inspection in progress. Someone really eager or really bored could go through the fellowship list and compare.

Wouldn't hurt to contact fellowship directors, sure. Some may be willing to step off the beaten path. Or at least give you enough information to use the wiki to point people in the right direction (they may have an obscure website or other contact information, etc.).

 

[MirkoCrocop]

The list of NAME accredited offices is on their website, here:

http://thename.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=67&Itemid=69

It's absolutely worth taking into consideration when looking at fellowships. However, until somewhat recently there hasn't been a "big" push towards having every office accredited -- but for the most part places with fellowships are leading the way. And even among offices that want to accomplish it, they may not have the resources to address every necessary component, or may even have conflicts with state law (I believe Utah? or Oklahoma? law keeps the medical examiner out of motor vehicle cases unless law enforcement requests them; unless they're able to get an exemption, they can't be accredited because they "miss" too many accidental deaths). Common problems include too many cases for the number of medical examiners on staff, and facility issues due to outdated buildings. While not necessarily every good training program is NAME accredited, being NAME accredited shows a willingness to go above and beyond basic requirements (hardly any jurisdictions require their offices to attain or maintain NAME accreditation). If you're looking at a non-NAME-accredited program, ask them why they're not accredited. I'd rather them say they're trying or have tried but can't because of some specific reason, rather than they can't be bothered to try because they don't "have" to.

Offhand I don't know what fellowship programs are at non-NAME-accredited offices; the big ones that immediately come to mind are on the list of accredited/provisional (several places are moving into new buildings or have other work-in-progress to address issues)/inspection in progress. Someone really eager or really bored could go through the fellowship list and compare.

Wouldn't hurt to contact fellowship directors, sure. Some may be willing to step off the beaten path. Or at least give you enough information to use the wiki to point people in the right direction (they may have an obscure website or other contact information, etc.).

I'm a little confused on the significance of NAME accreditation. There seem to be quite a few programs that offer fellowships that are not on that list. I thought many of these were good programs, but just from word of mouth.

Is there any increased difficulty in finding as comparable of a job as someone else coming from a NAME-accredited program?

Thanks!

 

[zao275]

Thanks for the info. I made my list using the NAME website. I just wanted to make sure I didn't miss any programs, but it looks like I probably am missing some.

MirkoCrocop: Could you list a few of the "big names" that are not accredited by NAME?

 

[KCShaw]

Which programs?

Note also -- NAME accreditation applies to the office as a whole, and doesn't address fellowship training issues specifically. ACGME accreditation applies specifically to the fellowship training; this is required to be able to sit for FP boards. There is some overlap, but don't confuse the two. So far, ACGME doesn't evidently require NAME accreditation -- at some point in the unknown future I hope & kinda expect that to change.

People will look at the fellowship itself, and its history, reputation of their staff, reputation of previous graduates, etc., long before asking you whether the office the fellowship was at was NAME accredited. I don't think anyone asked me whether my fellowship office was NAME accredited -- however, I asked every potential employer that question when I started job-hunting, and everyone seemed to expect the question. If the fellowship is ACGME accredited, you probably have little to worry about.

NAME accreditation standards were revised sometime in the late 90's, and there was an increased push towards accreditation. Since the very recent National Academy of Science report, there has been an additional surge in trying to get NAME accreditation. Point being, it's a relatively newly embraced concept, with only about 70 (quick count from the website) accredited/provisional/in-process out of 400-500 (saw ?460 somewhere?) offices which could be accredited. Most people in the field who are vocal talk about how important it is and is becoming, especially with increasing scrutiny on all forensic standards. But realistically a large number of offices either haven't been able to or aren't able to, sometimes for reasons unlikely to significantly impact a fellowship; fewer simply don't care, largely because local law doesn't require or recommend it and local lawyers haven't gotten up in arms about it yet.

Short answers: ACGME accredited fellowships at non-NAME-accredited offices may still be good, but should have a reasonable answer as to why they aren't NAME accredited. There's no increased difficulty, currently, in finding a job coming out of an ACGME accredited fellowship at a non-NAME-accredited office.

 

[deleted314957]

A complete list of Forensic Pathology Fellowship programs is now available on the Pathology Resident Wiki:

http://pathinfo.wikia.com/wiki/Forensic_Pathology_Fellowship_Directory

I realize that NAME already has a very thorough list, but that list lacks links to program websites and doesn't allow users to comment on the training programs (just thought I would address that before anyone brings it up). It does seem that many of the programs do not have a webpage for their forensic path fellowship program (I was amazed at this!).

If any programs are missing from the wiki, or if you know the web address to a program website, please add it to the wiki or post it here. I know there are a lot of forensic pathologists on this forum, so I am counting on you guys to help me out by adding info and program reviews to the wiki (please?).

Thanks!

As usual, the military option has been excluded. I had an excellent forensic fellowship (with a vastly higher salary and benefits due to my rank and years of service) under the combined aegis of the AFIP and the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner of Maryland in Baltimore. I had in-depth access and training in non-medical forensic facilities such as the FBI and ATF labs.

If you are beginning your medical career, there are lots of attractive aspects to the military. Please note that I am not a shill for the government. I got out after my internship, residency, fellowship and active practice obligations which added up to 10 1/2 years active duty because they had nothing more to offer me. Staying the additional time for retirement ( 1/2 base pay for life) was not a good financial choice.

Sorry to stray a bit from the thread but the OP's list had this big hole.

 

[KCShaw]

Good point. FREIDA has it listed under National Capital Consortium Program, with a different contact person. But, unless something has unexpectedly changed recently, Dr. Mallak would certainly be able to either address or forward any inquiries about the program.

-Very- interesting program, though unique/somewhat niche because of the military integration. Fellows used to spend ~6 months at the OCME for the State of Maryland (Baltimore), but that was cut back to 3 (4?) because (as the story goes) of ACGME requirements to maintain an "independent" fellowship. Regardless, they still get good exposure to a very busy "mainstream" office, if there is such a thing, and get exposure to large numbers of cases there. It sounds like the rest of the time is usually lower numbers and a lot of traveling, though interesting cases -- and exposure to a lot of high energy trauma these days. They've been doing post-mortem CT imaging longer and more regularly than I believe anyone else in the U.S., and as pointed out have access to some top notch consultant & educational resources. There's a good proportion of well reputed practicing FP's who hail from the AFIP/OAFME/now-apparently-AFMES forensic pathology fellowship program.

 

[HbyHA]

FYI- the New York office is not NAME accredited.

It is not currently required for AGCME accreditation, and I don't think anyone coming from the office has had issues with jobs due to lack of NAME accreditation.

As stated before, NAME accreditation is optional. I do think in certain offices, applying for it is a good tool. ie we can't get accredited unless you give us money to: hire more MEs, fix up the office, get sorely needed supplies, etc.

 

[KCShaw]

The New York (city) office has a very good reputation for their fellowship -- as in, some would consider it the best but most would probably at least have it in the top three or so. I'm curious now as to why they aren't accredited..

There's a lot of discussion these days on exactly the point of using NAME accreditation as a way to get more resources from local government offices who otherwise don't care that you're doing 900 autopsies/yr out of a funeral home which allows you to use a table, with 2 pathologists, 1 of whom isn't FP boarded, etc. But they're more likely to care about getting flayed in the media or in court for not bothering to attain basic standards set by a well recognized national body when a high profile death rears its head. Some chiefs are applying for accreditation knowing they won't get it, just to generate some paperwork and specific goals for the next budget meeting. Others are reticent to apply because they don't want to be known as the person who couldn't get the office NAME accredited.

Those really interested in the subject, and forensic pathology as a field, should consider joining NAME as a resident/fellow and getting on the listserv. It's very active, and sometimes as juvenile as any other board or list, but these kinds of issues get bantered around a good bit too.

 

[zao275]

Sorry to stray a bit from the thread but the OP's list had this big hole.

No problem, Mikesheree. I just want to be thorough and thus I am not offended if someone points out my flaws (I am doing this for the sake of making useful info for everyone...I am not even interested in Forensics which is why I am appreciative of the help you Forensic guys can offer me with my list.)

I have these programs listed under Maryland: http://pathinfo.wikia.com/wiki/Forensic_Pathology_Fellowship_Directory#Maryland

Is the program you are discussing different from the Armed Forces Medical Examiner Systems Program that I have listed on the wiki? Or are they the same?

Thanks again for the info.

 

[zao275]

The New York (city) office has a very good reputation for their fellowship -- as in, some would consider it the best but most would probably at least have it in the top three or so. I'm curious now as to why they aren't accredited..

http://pathinfo.wikia.com/wiki/Office_of_the_Chief_Medical_Examiner-City_of_New_York_Program

Is this the same program? So you are saying that this program is NOT NAME accredited...or NOT ACGME accredited? Sorry for my obvious lack of knowledge in this area!

 

[KCShaw]

Yes, that one, NYC -- the office is not NAME accredited, according to the NAME list. Two other NY offices are in progress to be NAME accredited, but neither evidently have their own fellowship.

I can't imagine that NAME would knowingly advertise a non-ACGME accredited FP fellowship on its website. Given that it's relatively easy to get into an FP fellowship in at least the smaller ACGME accredited programs, and I don't actually know any advertised non-ACGME FP fellowships, that part is almost a non-issue these days.

Despite all of this, and perhaps surprisingly, there are a few ME offices out there that will hire non-FP, and even non-AP boarded individuals to work for them and keep them on board even if they never become boarded. This is in large part a resource problem, but the increased scrutiny means it seems to be a fading practice except in the most desperate large offices and the most poorly resourced small offices. Non-ME offices/coroner offices, however, do that sort of thing more commonly -- in part because of resources, and in part because many coroner positions are filled by people with little to no knowledge of medicine or death investigation, much less pathology or forensic pathology.

And yes, to the best of my knowledge what used to be known as the Office of the Armed Forces Medical Examiner (OAFME), often called the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology (AFIP) Medical Examiner, is now officially known as the Armed Forces Medical Examiner System (AFMES) -- one ME "office", one fellowship program. The listing for the same fellowship under National Capital Consortium Program in FREIDA may have something to do with having to somehow affiliate with another medical training program.

 

[zao275]

Thanks for the info! You guys have been very helpful with this.

 

[KCShaw]

I should perhaps add, in regards to non-FP/non-AP boarded individuals performing forensic autopsies and even being recognized as experts in forensic pathology in court: Some of those individuals are very, very good, particularly those who have been around for years (a rare few before FP boards were available -- it was supposedly first officially "recognized", with exams, by ABPath in 1959, and not until 2003! by the Royal College of Phys & Surg in Canada). Some are in big offices that have turned themselves around and almost certainly wouldn't hire such an individual now.

Anyway, bit of a sidebar.

 

[HbyHA]

The New York (city) office has a very good reputation for their fellowship -- as in, some would consider it the best but most would probably at least have it in the top three or so. I'm curious now as to why they aren't accredited..

I certainly would put it up there, but i'm a bit biased the best way to explain the non-accredited status is that it isn't felt that it is necessary at this point in time.

I should perhaps add, in regards to non-FP/non-AP boarded individuals performing forensic autopsies and even being recognized as experts in forensic pathology in court: Some of those individuals are very, very good, particularly those who have been around for years (a rare few before FP boards were available -- it was supposedly first officially "recognized", with exams, by ABPath in 1959, and not until 2003! by the Royal College of Phys & Surg in Canada). Some are in big offices that have turned themselves around and almost certainly wouldn't hire such an individual now.

Anyway, bit of a sidebar.

basically, being recognized as an expert just means that you know more than the lay person about the subject. as a doctor (any specialty) you could testify about any medical specialty, since you technically fulfill this requirement.

is that a bright idea? i don't think so!

 

[KCShaw]

Heh, exactly. Although occasionally expert status, expert conclusions, or scientific findings are challenged or disallowed. There's a series of different legal requirements/standards addressing those points over the years. While we, and probably the public, would like to think that being accepted as an expert in court is a big deal.. for the most part it isn't. Anyone who claims education, training, or simply prior experience in a certain field is at risk for being declared an expert. Fortunately the better lawyers are finding out, though primarily from other "experts," what most people in a given field consider appropriate, and inappropriate, requirements to be suitably knowledgeable and reputable.