concern during OMT training

[MedicineBound]

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As I go on interviews, I have started developing a concern regarding the OMT courses where students practice manipulation on each other. Although I do not doubt the efficacy of OMT and wouldn't mind being manipulated by someone that is board certified, I am concerned about being manipulated by fellow MS1s and the rare but possible problems that could arise from it (vertebral/carotid artery dissections, etc)

I know as a student practice makes perfect but do I have the option of sitting out on certain manipulations? Can any current or past D.O. students comment on any incidences that have occurred where a student has injured another student? Or am I just being overly worried about this? Thank you

 

[racerwad]

You are being overly worried. OMT is benign to the point of being...well, you can see for yourself 😉

In seriousness, if you have a legitimate injury that precludes you from certain techniques (fracture, HIV, cancer, etc), you can sit out the techniques that work on that part of your body.

 

[NeuroLAX]

As I go on interviews, I have started developing a concern regarding the OMT courses where students practice manipulation on each other. Although I do not doubt the efficacy of OMT and wouldn't mind being manipulated by someone that is board certified, I am concerned about being manipulated by fellow MS1s and the rare but possible problems that could arise from it (vertebral/carotid artery dissections, etc)

I know as a student practice makes perfect but do I have the option of sitting out on certain manipulations? Can any current or past D.O. students comment on any incidences that have occurred where a student has injured another student? Or am I just being overly worried about this? Thank you

You are being overly worried.

It's funny you mention vertebral/carotid artery dissections because my professor was just talking about that the other day in lecture. My professor presented the topic of evidence-based medicine and how to decipher medical journal conclusions and factor in any bias, etc. He offered an article written by someone who was trying to discredit the use of chiropractic spinal manipulation due to the fact that the risk of vertbral artery dissection outweighs the benefits. The author cited himself so many times that it became clear that he was on a crusade. In addition, his evidence was incredibly lacking. Statistically, the incidence of VAD was like 26 out of MILLIONS, and this was over the course of 30 some-odd years. In other words, the incidence was <<<<<<<< 1% so the author had no logical argument, no clear proof, and thus no reason to suggest that the use of chiropractic spinal manipulation is dangerous enough to warrant its discontinuation.

As you can see, spinal manipulations are not dangerous. Millions upon millions of manipulations are performed yearly around the world.

You are being overly worried. OMT is benign to the point of being...well, you can see for yourself 😉

In seriousness, if you have a legitimate injury that precludes you from certain techniques (fracture, HIV, cancer, etc), you can sit out the techniques that work on that part of your body.

+1 👍

 

[MedicineBound]

Yeah I just randomly threw in VAD but let me preface by saying I am pre-med and therefore do not have any idea what im talking about =)

But my concern isn't regarding TRAINED physicians doing manipulation. It is more of the students and the thought of random students doing their first HVLA on me scares me a bit.

 

[NeuroLAX]

Yeah I just randomly threw in VAD but let me preface by saying I am pre-med and therefore do not have any idea what im talking about =)

But my concern isn't regarding TRAINED physicians doing manipulation. It is more of the students and the thought of random students doing their first HVLA on me scares me a bit.

You get over random people touching you after the first week or two. Hopefully by then most won't be "random"... they are your classmates, after all 😎. I have never felt as though I am putting myself in danger at the hands of my fellow OPP partner. If you think they are doing something wrong you ask for one of the instructors to come over and show the correct technique and guide you both through it.

 

[costales]

Nope. Never seen it, never heard of it. On the contrary, I've witnessed people get pain relief.

 

[MedPR]

Yeah I just randomly threw in VAD but let me preface by saying I am pre-med and therefore do not have any idea what im talking about =)

But my concern isn't regarding TRAINED physicians doing manipulation. It is more of the students and the thought of random students doing their first HVLA on me scares me a bit.

I agree that you are worrying for no reason. However, taking your stance on the issue here's what I think.

Youre pretty much saying "I'll practice on you and risk you getting injured because of my incompetence, but you can't touch me because I might get hurt." You're willing to risk your classmate's health so you can learn, but you wont reciprocate? Shows that you think you're better at something none us are skilled at yet.. either that or you just don't care about other people. Good attitude.

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[MedicineBound]

I agree that you are worrying for no reason. However, taking your stance on the issue here's what I think.

Youre pretty much saying "I'll practice on you and risk you getting injured because of my incompetence, but you can't touch me because I might get hurt." You're willing to risk your classmate's health so you can learn, but you wont reciprocate? Shows that you think you're better at something none us are skilled at yet.. either that or you just don't care about other people. Good attitude.

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I think that was a little harsh. I am just expressing some concern that other people I have talked to share as well and was asking if there had been any injuries as a result of student on student manipulation. And I understand its a reciprocal relationship and for the most part I don't mind. It's the cranial manipulations that have me a little worried and maybe sitting on those. But as others have suggested, I agree with them that I am just worrying too much

Also, if I really didn't care about people I wouldn't be pursuing a career in medicine. Thanks for your opinion though.

 

[dntke1518]

Also, if I really didn't care about people I wouldn't be pursuing a career in medicine. Thanks for your opinion though.

Crazier things have happened

 

[MedicineBound]

Crazier things have happened

That is true, sadly.

 

[MedPR]

I think that was a little harsh. I am just expressing some concern that other people I have talked to share as well and was asking if there had been any injuries as a result of student on student manipulation. And I understand its a reciprocal relationship and for the most part I don't mind. It's the cranial manipulations that have me a little worried and maybe sitting on those. But as others have suggested, I agree with them that I am just worrying too much

Also, if I really didn't care about people I wouldn't be pursuing a career in medicine. Thanks for your opinion though.

I agree its harsh and im sure that's not your thought process. You are just overworrying, and I wanted to use the harsh/ridiculous example to prove it.

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[GypsyHummus]

To play devils advocate here, what if the student manipulating you does mess something up? I know members of my family who went to chiropractors and really got screwed up long term for improper manipulation. Mistakes are bound to be made.

 

[NeuroLAX]

To play devils advocate here, what if the student manipulating you does mess something up? I know members of my family who went to chiropractors and really got screwed up long term for improper manipulation. Mistakes are bound to be made.

We're not training to become chiropractors 😎

 

[saylorsdad]

As a OMSII, and we just finished our first HVLA test I can say don't worry about this. First year you learn soft tissue, muscle energy, and still techniques. Don't remember what else but the learning curve is gradual and you will practice in small groups in a large lab under the supervision of both Physicians, and OMSII's as a first year, changing to OMSIII&IV's during your 2nd year. The last thing of concern should be getting hurt in OMM. You will quickly find out who is good and if you want treatment outside of class you can have them work on you.

I think you're real concern is hurting people like a chiropracter does if I am interpreting your statements above. I would say don't be because the techniques learned in DO land are similar but different. I can say that with confidence as one of our students was a Chiro before he came to DO land, and he has explained some differences to me. Not better but different.

 

[xXIDaShizIXx]

We're not training to become chiropractors 😎

That was hilarious.

 

[NeuroLAX]

As a OMSII, and we just finished our first HVLA test I can say don't worry about this. First year you learn soft tissue, muscle energy, and still techniques. Don't remember what else but the learning curve is gradual and you will practice in small groups in a large lab under the supervision of both Physicians, and OMSII's as a first year, changing to OMSIII&IV's during your 2nd year. The last thing of concern should be getting hurt in OMM. You will quickly find out who is good and if you want treatment outside of class you can have them work on you.

I think you're real concern is hurting people like a chiropracter does if I am interpreting your statements above. I would say don't be because the techniques learned in DO land are similar but different. I can say that with confidence as one of our students was a Chiro before he came to DO land, and he has explained some differences to me. Not better but different.

OSU has M2s as adjuncts in OPP lab? I guess NSU does it a little differently. We have the OPP fellows as adjuncts. They get paid for their year as fellows and M3 and M4 years also get paid for. But very few people are selected for the fellowship. Not sure if they also teach the current M2s or they have ex-fellows who are now M3/4.

 

[GraceEuphoria]

I have to agree with the others that there is really no need to be concerned. I, too, tend to be a (very) nervoud Nelly, as they say, and never once did I truly feel like my well-being was jeopardized in lab during my first two years. As someone stated, every student learns the basics first before ever reaching any sort of HVLA technique. The ironic thing about all this is that most of the time, when students felt any sort of negative effect after OPP lab, it was from the techniques that no one expected it from. I've seen the most reaction to the labs where we learned OA releases, cranial and indirect techniques targeted at the abdominal viscera. Regardless, at least at my school, it was explicitly stated that you were never to leave lab if you didn't feel "right." And the moment you don't feel yourself at the end of lab, one of the supervising profs would immediately work on you. As a side note on the topic of fellows vs. MS-2s helping in lab....we had both. Second years were always more so there to demonstrate basic principles and answer questions for first year labs, whereas fellows often taught techniques and helped to work on students after lab if needed.

 

[saylorsdad]

OSU has M2s as adjuncts in OPP lab? I guess NSU does it a little differently. We have the OPP fellows as adjuncts. They get paid for their year as fellows and M3 and M4 year fours also get paid for. But very few people are selected for the fellowship. Not sure if they also teach the current M2s or they have ex-fellows who are now M3/4.

We have both for first year, We have practicing physicians in lab 1 per 8 students is the normal ratio I think. We also have 1 MSII for every 8 students. For MSII year we also have a practicing physician 1 per 8 students, and we have either a MSIII or MSIV on OMM rotation that month helping for every group. The MSII's are being paid for helping the first year students, the MSIII and IV's are not being paid it is part of their OMM rotation. Pretty good practice since they have OMM boards to prep for.

 

[GypsyHummus]

Not to be "that guy" but what is the difference between OMM and chiropractic medicine?

From the videos that I have seen, Its seems like osteopaths take a bit longer before the actual "cracking"

 

[saylorsdad]

Osteopathic medicine basically uses High Velocity Low Amplitude to POP, My understanding of Chiro is they use High Velocity High Amplitude which isn't something we are trained since there is more of a risk of injury. For HVLA think find the barrier then quickly move through the barrier with a minimal amount of force. I really cannot tell you what high amplitude would be since I havn't ever done it or been a recipient of the treatment don't think it is inheriently dangerous since there is probably a time and place for it. Also the POP isn't theraputic restoring a physiological range of motion is the goal. Now back to studying

 

[MedPR]

Not to be "that guy" but what is the difference between OMM and chiropractic medicine?

From the videos that I have seen, Its seems like osteopaths take a bit longer before the actual "cracking"

This post would get more love in pre-allo. You can expect a pimp slap here in pre-osteo though.

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[HalfListic]

I agree that you are worrying for no reason. However, taking your stance on the issue here's what I think.

Youre pretty much saying "I'll practice on you and risk you getting injured because of my incompetence, but you can't touch me because I might get hurt." You're willing to risk your classmate's health so you can learn, but you wont reciprocate? Shows that you think you're better at something none us are skilled at yet.. either that or you just don't care about other people. Good attitude.

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I agree its harsh and im sure that's not your thought process. You are just overworrying, and I wanted to use the harsh/ridiculous example to prove it.

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This wasn't harsh...it was just wrong. MedPR misinterpreted or misread OPs concern.


Not: OP is ok with treating and but not being treated,

BUT: OP is concerned by being treated by someone who isn't trained.

It shows nothing about OP's care of others, it was strictly a comment of concern over being treated by a first year.


Sometimes you jump at the chance to sound hard-core PR, but I think its better to just relaz and see what people are trying to say.

 

[TriagePreMed]

Not to be "that guy" but what is the difference between OMM and chiropractic medicine?

From the videos that I have seen, Its seems like osteopaths take a bit longer before the actual "cracking"

Chiropractic focuses on nerve impingement as the source of all problems, whereas OMM does soft tissue and other techniques similar to PT in addition to sometimes cracking bones for nerve problems.

 

[MedPR]

This wasn't harsh...it was just wrong. MedPR misinterpreted or misread OPs concern.


Not: OP is ok with treating and but not being treated,

BUT: OP is concerned by being treated by someone who isn't trained.

It shows nothing about OP's care of others, it was strictly a comment of concern over being treated by a first year.


Sometimes you jump at the chance to sound hard-core PR, but I think its better to just relaz and see what people are trying to say.

You missed the part where I said I didn't think that's what the op thought, but that's how it could be interpreted.

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[HalfListic]

You missed the part where I said I didn't think that's what the op thought, but that's how it could be interpreted.

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Hmmm, thats how it could be MIS-interpreted I guess...but that doesn't make it a legitimate interpretation, which makes your comment unnecessarily accusatory. So, I wanted to call it out for OP's sake...I don't think OP was being insensitive, which is what you accused them of and then scoffed "nice attitude". That was a bit out of line.

Also, you only followed up with a comment you are referring to...which doesn't negate your original accusation.


Just keeping you honest, haha

 

[MedPR]

Hmmm, thats how it could be MIS-interpreted I guess...but that doesn't make it a legitimate interpretation, which makes your comment unnecessarily accusatory. So, I wanted to call it out for OP's sake...I don't think OP was being insensitive, which is what you accused them of and then scoffed "nice attitude". That was a bit out of line.

Also, you only followed up with a comment you are referring to...which doesn't negate your original accusation.


Just keeping you honest, haha

I guess you didn't read my original carefully. "I agree you're overworrying" and then in the second post "I don't think that's how you feel. I used a harsh example to show that you are simply overworrying." It's kind of like when you use an oversimplified example to prove a point.

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[NeuroLAX]

I guess you didn't read my original carefully. "I agree you're overworrying" and then in the second post "I don't think that's how you feel. I used a harsh example to show that you are simply overworrying." It's kind of like when you use an oversimplified example to prove a point.

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Reductio ad absurdum?

 

[MedPR]

Reductio ad absurdum?

I'm trying to go to med school, not literature grad school. 😉

 

[HalfListic]

I agree that you are worrying for no reason. However, taking your stance on the issue here's what I think.

Youre pretty much saying "I'll practice on you and risk you getting injured because of my incompetence, but you can't touch me because I might get hurt." You're willing to risk your classmate's health so you can learn, but you wont reciprocate? Shows that you think you're better at something none us are skilled at yet.. either that or you just don't care about other people. Good attitude.

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I guess you didn't read my original carefully. "I agree you're overworrying" and then in the second post "I don't think that's how you feel. I used a harsh example to show that you are simply overworrying." It's kind of like when you use an oversimplified example to prove a point.

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Here ya go, your original...see above.



What I see:

You try to take OP's stance, but as I stated earlier, you misrepresented and then insulted them. If you don't see that, look at the bolded statements. Never did OP state what you have in quotations and you comments about not caring about other people and "good attitude" are one of the biggest insults you can levy against a fellow pre-med.

Using a "harsh example" is only viable if its accurate. Your example has nothing to do with OP expressing concern about being practiced on. I think, after reading many of your comments, you simply enjoy being harsh...which is why I called you out.

If you want a simplistic example of OPs situation (which is fully unnecessary in this case, since it is so straight forward) you could use something like:

OP's stance about being afraid of OMM is analogous to visiting the dentist the first time. There can be fear associated with the experience, but that can be assuaged by educating one's self on the procedures, familiarization with the actual low risk involved, and simply experiencing the visit.


See how I gave an example and didn't insult anyone? 😉

 

[HalfListic]

I'm trying to go to med school, not literature grad school. 😉

PS, I could have insulted you for thinking that reductio ad absurdum is a literary term, (and for not knowing what it really is) but I didn't.

I point this out to show you that you that you are unnecessarily harsh with people online here, while people give you quite a bit of leeway.

I know you're young, and this is "only online", but you should consider becoming more gracious in your interpersonal dealings. Even online. We are who we are.

 

[superfan56]

happens all the time, one guy injuries another and the fellow stands over them, does CV4, suddenly all is right in the world.

 

[GypsyHummus]

All that manipulation has to be hard on the spine if you do it frequently lol. Doesnt it loosen the joints and cause future problems?

 

[Raisenbran]

From what I've seen you don't use HVLA as much as everyone makes it out to be, especially not nearly as much as a chiro. Take the spine for instance. I only know 2 HVLA techniques for the thoracic/lumbar while there are tonsssss of soft tissue, muscle energy, and counterstrain maneuvers you would try first. There is also almost always a muscle energy alternative to most HVLA techniques if you don't like using or receiving it. So don't think that most of OMM is cracking different areas because it's not, that is only the most talked about because it stands out as having a noise component and wraps us up in the chiropractor controversy because it looks/sounds similar.