Concerned premed

[momoneymoproblems19]

I have a 3.6 overall gpa and a 3.3 science gpa. However, I really want to go to a top MD school. what do I do?

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[Moko]

I have a 3.6 overall gpa and a 3.3 science gpa. However, I really want to go to a top MD school. what do I do?

Well that depends on how many semesters you have under your belt. If you just started as a sophomore, you could theoretically bring your cGPA and sGPA up to 3.9 and 3.8, respectively. But if you're closer to graduation, then your stats are simply not competitive for the "top" schools. As the saying goes, you can't buy good champagne with a sparkling cider budget. For reference, the average cGPA and sGPA for all US MD matriculants was 3.74 and 3.67, respectively. So, your current GPA is below average.

Which brings me to my next question - why do you really want to go to a "top" MD school? What will you do there that cannot be done at other less prestigious medical schools? With your current grades, a much more realistic goal is to get into any medical school - only about a third of US MD applicants succeed in any given year, so simply getting accepted anywhere is an achievement in itself. And depending on your GPA and MCAT at the time of application, you may also be wise to add US DO schools to your list to maximize your chances of getting in. Just my thoughts.

 

[CyrilFiggis]

Just echoing what Moko said, do you want to go to a top med school or do you want to be a doctor? There are more doctors than there are doctors from “top” med schools. And not all residents in competitive specialties come from those top schools. Right now, your grades say that you may struggle at any med school. Med schools want you to succeed but they need to know that you can handle the work and stress.

 

[Goro]

I have a 3.6 overall gpa and a 3.3 science gpa. However, I really want to go to a top MD school. what do I do?

{Pray tell, why is getting into a top school so important to you, as opposed to say, Wake or Miami?

In your present state, You apply to DO schools, become a doctor, and you salary as an attending will be the same as any Harvard/Stanford grad in your specialty.

If you're gunning for the MD, then read this:

• Goro's advice for pre-meds who need reinvention

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I have a 3.6 overall gpa and a 3.3 science gpa. However, I really want to go to a top MD school. what do I do?

Can I ask, what have you done? Definitely not enough information to give you any substantive device other than "study harder."

 

[momoneymoproblems19]

Sure! What do you want to know about what have I done?

 

[DOCOC15]

Sure! What do you want to know about what have I done?

What year in school are you?
What science pre-reqs have you taken/how many credits do you have left to improve your GPA?
What clinical experience do you have?
What volunteering experience do you have?
What research experience do you have?
Are you URM?
What are the classes you've struggled in? When you're not getting an A in a class, what steps do you take to improve (office hours, study groups, etc)?

 

[momoneymoproblems19]

I am a senior! I've taken all the prereqs, I have about 24 credits to improve my gpa.

I have about 300 hours of volunteering in a hospital.

I have no research experience.

I am an ORM.

Struggled in physics and bio and ochem... basically everything haha. I've tried study groups, office hours, & past practice exams. I guess I am just not a great student.

 

[SooConfused]

I am a senior! I've taken all the prereqs, I have about 24 credits to improve my gpa.

I have about 300 hours of volunteering in a hospital.

I have no research experience.

I am an ORM.

Struggled in physics and bio and ochem... basically everything haha. I've tried study groups, office hours, & past practice exams. I guess I am just not a great student.

In that case, this feels a lot like a troll post. Does your school have a pre-med advising office? Have you ever visited it? Since you completed all prereqs, do you have a MCAT score?

You answered your own question -- you're not a great student. Unfortunately for you, top MD schools did not become top MD schools by virtue of admitting people who are not great students.

While you will probably not be attending a top MD program, as @Moko suggested, and based on what you just posted, you are not presently competitive for any MD program at all. You should probably spend some time on SDN, as well as at your pre-med advising office while you still have access to it, to learn the elements of a competitive med school application.

You are likely looking at a few years after you graduate to take post-bacc classes, and to figure out how to do well in them, just to show schools, other than top MD schools, that you are academically ready to handle med school. You will then have to engage in activities like non-clinical volunteering to check all the other expected boxes.

And then you'll have to figure out how to do better than around 70% of all test takers on the MCAT in order to be one of the 36% of applicants who are successful. That's pretty much what you have to do. In addition, you'll have to reset your goal away from attending a top MD school, assuming you still want to be a doctor if it means attending a non-top MD school, or, heaven forbid, a DO school. Good luck!

 

[momoneymoproblems19]

Ouch okay definitely hurtful! Thanks for your input nonetheless!

 

[LindaAccepted]

Ouch okay definitely hurtful! Thanks for your input nonetheless!

I think you need to become a great student, or at least a much better one if you really want to become a doctor. As several people have said, focus on becoming a doctor, not going to a "top" med school.

• Take a look at Goro's post on reinvention.
• Strongly consider a postbac program, I'd suggest a formal one, not a DIY one. You need to improve your study skills.
• Get involved in community service in addition to your clinical volunteering.
• Strongly consider DO programs as well as MD programs. Again, the goal is to become a physician.

 

[candbgirl]

Sure! What do you want to know about what have I done?

Fill in the grid.

*~*~*~*IMPORTANT: How to Format Your WAMC Thread for Optimal Results and More!!*~*~*~*

Hello, and welcome to the What Are My Chances (WAMC) forum. The purpose of this forum is to Post threads about your chances of acceptance to MD and/or DO schools Have your school list critiqued and modified by other members of SDN Determine how to strengthen your current application General...

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[momoneymoproblems19]

Thanks for the input! Of course, I am always striving to be a better student. I think striving to go to a great med school makes sense in a lot of ways though(I realize I am mostly met with disagreement on this, but it is my opinion) because of the resources provided to those students as well as step 1 going p/f.

 

[momoneymoproblems19]

1. cGPA and sGPA as calculated by AMCAS(3.62, 3.29) or AACOMAS(3.62, 3.64)
2. MCAT score(s) and breakdown(not taken yet)
3. State of residence or country of citizenship (if non-US) (CA)
4. Ethnicity and/or race (Asian)
5. Undergraduate institution or category (UCLA)
6. Clinical experience (volunteer and non-volunteer) ~300 hours @ CHLA
7. Research experience and productivity (none)
8. Shadowing experience and specialties represented (none)
9. Non-clinical volunteering (student government)
10. Other extracurricular activities (including athletics, military service, gap year activities, leadership, teaching, etc)
11. Relevant honors or awards (dean's list)
12. Anything else not listed you think might be important (N/a)

 

[SooConfused]

Thanks for the input! Of course, I am always striving to be a better student. I think striving to go to a great med school makes sense in a lot of ways though(I realize I am mostly met with disagreement on this, but it is my opinion) because of the resources provided to those students as well as step 1 going p/f.

You are absolutely correct. No disagreement at all. What you are ignoring is that those benefits and privileges are reserved for the very top of the pool.

Given that 2/3 of the applicant pool each year does not get in anywhere, it is simply unrealistic for someone with a below average GPA and below average everything else that schools look for in an application to be shooting for that. Kind of like a somewhat below average intramural college baseball player striving to play Major League Baseball because those players make the most money and have the best resources available to them.

It might sound cliche, but it really is true that you have to be able to crawl before you can walk. If you really want to be a doctor, the general advice you are receiving is to set realistic goals you can actually meet. As @Goro said above, if you can get into any school, and then make it through, you can have a great life as a physician.

That should probably be the goal as opposed to saying that you heard Harvard is really good, and then asking what you should do as a college senior with a 3.3 sGPA and minimal ECs to get accepted there, because the resources provided to their students are far superior to those provided at a typical DO school.

 

[momoneymoproblems19]

We can agree to disagree! I really don't think there's anything that's wrong with aiming high

 

[Goro]

We can agree to disagree! I really don't think there's anything that's wrong with aiming high

One has to be realistic first.

 

[momoneymoproblems19]

Realistically, any MD school in the country could accept a class of all 4.0 gpas but don't. I don't know, it just feels weird for me to be told to limit myself so aggressively in this thread, when I still have two quarters left and am open to staying longer, still have to take the MCAT(and I tend to do really well on standardized tests), and gap years to bolster clinical experience, but hey, I could be wrong about my chances . For what is worth, I would be okay going to any med school(DO or MD). I just want to try to go to the best that I can, and yet again, I don't see anything wrong with that .

 

[Moko]

1. cGPA and sGPA as calculated by AMCAS(3.62, 3.29) or AACOMAS(3.62, 3.64)
2. MCAT score(s) and breakdown(not taken yet)
3. State of residence or country of citizenship (if non-US) (CA)
4. Ethnicity and/or race (Asian)
5. Undergraduate institution or category (UCLA)
6. Clinical experience (volunteer and non-volunteer) ~300 hours @ CHLA
7. Research experience and productivity (none)
8. Shadowing experience and specialties represented (none)
9. Non-clinical volunteering (student government)
10. Other extracurricular activities (including athletics, military service, gap year activities, leadership, teaching, etc)
11. Relevant honors or awards (dean's list)
12. Anything else not listed you think might be important (N/a)

Assuming you get 4.0 during your senior year and one year of full-time post-bac, your cGPA and sGPA will increase to 3.77 and 3.57, respectively, which will put you more in line with the MD matriculant GPA averages. The cGPA/sGPA averages for the "top 20" schools is closer to ~3.85-3.90; with schools like UMich having a slightly lower GPA average (3.72/3.77 this past cycle). So your sGPA will still be below average for the "top" schools. In contrast, your current GPA (assuming you do well this year) will be competitive for DO schools even without a post-bac.

Being below average does not eliminate your chances of an acceptance, as by definition, 50% of their matriculants were "below average". However, your GPA is only one part of your application. Other important aspects include your MCAT, letters of recommendations, and extracurricular experiences. You are currently severely lacking in your extracurriculars for any medical school, but especially the "top" schools.

1) Shadowing: you should aim for ~50 hours of shadowing by the time of your application (can be substituted with scribe work)
2) Clinical experience: continue to gain clinical experience, however, also find ways to volunteer in the community.
3) Non-clinical volunteering: I would not count your student government experience as non-clinical volunteering. That should be under "Leadership" instead. When we say non-clinical volunteering, we're talking about stepping out of your comfort zone (academia) and helping people who are less fortunate than yourself. So think soup kitchens, homeless shelters, low income school district mentorship, helping out as a case worker connecting people to resources like food stamps, housing, etc. Some students also volunteer in the prison system teaching prisoners and preparing them for their GEDs, etc.
4) Research: The "top" schools are renown because of their research productivity. So it's not surprising that the overwhelming majority of matriculants to these "top" schools have significant research experiences. I think that this is where you will struggle the most. It will be difficult for you to i) find a mentor, ii) get on a good research project within a short period of time being a newbie with no prior experience, and iii) make meaningful research contributions while you are also focusing on your full-time academics/post-bac, MCAT studying, and other service experiences as above. Granted, not all matriculants to the research-heavy schools have significant research experience under their belt, but those who don't will almost always bring other significant experiences to "make up" for it. Currently, nothing you've mentioned fits that bill.

Ultimately, you can spend years post-graduation building a competitive application and still not be accepted to these "top" schools. They really are that hard to get into. There's nothing wrong with aiming high, but any goal should also be realistic. IMO, your goal should first and foremost be to get into any medical school. As I mentioned in my first post, that in itself is a major accomplishment. If you can achieve #1-4 above and have a cohesive narrative, I do think you will find success somewhere. Best of luck and just my thoughts.

 

[momoneymoproblems19]

Thank you for laying out these areas to improve upon and for your thoughts!

 

[Bulliedinschool2doc]

Realistically, any MD school in the country could accept a class of all 4.0 gpas but don't. I don't know, it just feels weird for me to be told to limit myself so aggressively in this thread, when I still have two quarters left and am open to staying longer, still have to take the MCAT(and I tend to do really well on standardized tests), and gap years to bolster clinical experience, but hey, I could be wrong about my chances . For what is worth, I would be okay going to any med school(DO or MD). I just want to try to go to the best that I can, and yet again, I don't see anything wrong with that .

I think what helped me get into medical school was being realistic with myself. The first time I applied I was chasing these sexy MD institutions and lost lots of money and time applying to schools only .1% of applicants get into. You need to focus on improving your ECs as noted above, as of now there is nothing that stands out on your application. In high school everyone was harping on the colleges they got into and I went the community college and then state school route to save money and I am doing much better than 99% of these ivy league/UC graduates from my high school and many of the same graduates at my medical school. If you work hard on your MCAT, I am sure you can get into a medical school in the US. But as the wise @Goro said above, be honest with yourself. I have worked with docs from India and the Caribbeans and other docs from Ivy League/UC medical schools and nobody gave a **** where they went/trained, rather the type of doctor they were to patients and staff. Keep us updated on improvements!

 

[momoneymoproblems19]

Thank you for your perspective! Happy that you are doing well

 

[CyrilFiggis]

Thanks for the input! Of course, I am always striving to be a better student. I think striving to go to a great med school makes sense in a lot of ways though(I realize I am mostly met with disagreement on this, but it is my opinion) because of the resources provided to those students as well as step 1 going p/f.

Resources are also provided at other med schools. We should know, we’ve actually done it. Based on being a self proclaimed “not a great student” I doubt being at a great med school will help you pass Step 1. Your peers at those schools are already running circles around you academically in undergrad. Those school pick them because they’re already successful. Buying the best baseball bat in the world won’t help you hit a major league fastball if you’re already striking out in the minors.

 

[Goro]

Realistically, any MD school in the country could accept a class of all 4.0 gpas but don't. I don't know, it just feels weird for me to be told to limit myself so aggressively in this thread, when I still have two quarters left and am open to staying longer, still have to take the MCAT(and I tend to do really well on standardized tests), and gap years to bolster clinical experience, but hey, I could be wrong about my chances . For what is worth, I would be okay going to any med school(DO or MD). I just want to try to go to the best that I can, and yet again, I don't see anything wrong with that .

It feels weird because we are telling you what you need to hear, not what you want to hear. Keep in mind that people come here for a realistic advice, not hugs and kisses. One can go to r/premed for that.

If you look at the class average of matriculants at the really top schools we're talking about people in the top 10 to 5th percentile. They can afford to take a pass on less competitive applicants.

That said, there are some really top schools that do reward reinvention. Examples include Vanderbilt, Colombia, Case, Pitt, and Duke.

 

[momoneymoproblems19]

I just feel like academics are one aspect of admissions. I'm not a great student, but I'm still pretty good with an overall A- average at a pretty competitive undergrad...

 

[momoneymoproblems19]

I'm not asking for hugs and kisses, just substantive advice about how to go about attempting to get into a top MD school. Not being told to change my goals 😂

 

[Goro]

I'm not asking for hugs and kisses, just substantive advice about how to go about attempting to get into a top MD school. Not being told to change my goals 😂

Read this:

• Goro's advice for pre-meds who need reinvention

You still didn't answer y question: why is it so important for you to get into a Top Medical School?

And like it or not, those schools that reward reinvention are more in the classes of Wake/Miami and Drexel/Albany. Plus all DO schools. As a reinventor, you'll need to apply to DO schools. Beggars can't be choosy.

3.6 overall gpa and a 3.3 science gpa.

That's not an A- avg and it's not going to get you into Harvard/Stanford class schools. Of course, a lot of this discussion is moot without an MCAT score.

Just as a word of warning. Being unteachable does not bode well for a medical student, and residents get fired for it.

 

[candbgirl]

I don’t know but out of 27 responses 12 are from the OP trying to get us to change our minds and at least 10 are from honest to goodness ADCOM members and Admission Advisors who know what the real deal is. Maybe more. And OP won’t even consider what is being said. No one is trying to make you change your goals. People are trying to let you know that you might have to adjust your vision a bit to achieve the BIG goal of becoming a doctor. But maybe that isn’t the BIG goal at all. If you are really believing that you have an A- GPA I can tell you ADCOMS aren’t looking at a 3.6 cGPA or a 3.3 sGPA as A-.

Additionally, your ECs are very weak. You have 300 hours at CHLA and then NO shadowing, nonclinical volunteering, research or other extra curricular. How do you spend your time? Certainly not in a lab or a soup kitchen or homeless shelter or following a doc around to see what the job is really like.

Of course all of this is moot. You don’t have a MCAT score and with a low sGPA you are going to have to study hard to fill in any knowledge gaps you might have. And don’t take the test until you are ready. A low score won’t help.

Are you aware that each cycle only around 36% of ALL applicants are accepted to any med school? And of that number about half are accepted to only ONE school.This means that over 60% of all applicants are outright rejected each cycle. This includes stellar applicants with near perfect applications are left without an acceptance.

You have a lot of work to do to become a competitive candidate for any medical school. So take your time, build a competitive application that makes reviewers think “this person is so well prepared, has a great application and we should interview him”.

Let us know when you get your MCAT score. If you are interested, the lists gurus will be very happy to help you develop a broad and reasonable list of schools that will afford you the best chances of achieving your dreams.

 

[momoneymoproblems19]

I did answer my own question, when I said that I wanted to attempt to go to a higher ranked school because they offer more resources to their students. I also have said that if I didn't get into a top med school, I would be okay with going to a lower ranked school, either MD or DO.

So like an A- gpa would be a 3.66, and I have a 3.62... And I haven't been aiming for Harvard or Stanford, more like a UC med school...

Thank you for the word of advice on being unteachable. From your post, you seem to think that I should work on raising my gpa, gain more clinical hours, and apply DO... all of which I was planning to do anyway. If you would like to go as far as to say that I should not apply to any MD schools without knowing where my final gpas or MCATs end up, then I gladly accept the title of being "unteachable" and will take my chances going through med school and residency.

 

[Goro]

I did answer my own question, when I said that I wanted to attempt to go to a higher ranked school because they offer more resources to their students. I also have said that if I didn't get into a top med school, I would be okay with going to a lower ranked school, either MD or DO.

So like an A- gpa would be a 3.66, and I have a 3.62... And I haven't been aiming for Harvard or Stanford, more like a UC med school...

Thank you for the word of advice on being unteachable. From your post, you seem to think that I should work on raising my gpa, gain more clinical hours, and apply DO... all of which I was planning to do anyway. If you would like to go as far as to say that I should not apply to any MD schools without knowing where my final gpas or MCATs end up, then I gladly accept the title of being "unteachable" and will take my chances going through med school and residency.

Define "more resources"

So now you're moving the goal posts and changing "top medical school" to the UCs? You could have saved us a lot more time by mentioning that.

UCSF is one of the schools that reward reinvention. UCLA, UCSD, Kaiser, no.

 

[momoneymoproblems19]

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. I believe I have in fact said "we can agree to disagree." I'm simply expressing my thoughts. I wouldn't post anything that I didn't believe was true, so no I haven't had posts of reticent agreement if I didn't agree with what was being said.

I have considered what was said, so I'm not entirely sure where you are coming from.

Yes, I am very aware of how difficult it is to get in to medical school.

 

[momoneymoproblems19]

In my mind, the UCs are top medical schools. I've never really wanted to go to an Ivy league, mostly because I'm lower middle class and likely wouldn't be able to afford it. Even though Columbia and Cornell are free tuition, I think I probably still would prefer a UC school because my family/support system is in California. That said, I will move anywhere in the US for med school(if I can't get into a med school in California).

To me, more resources means more connections to doctors, more opportunities for research, professors at the top of their fields from whom I can ask questions and learn from, an environment with collaboration over competition because there's less stress about matching. There are medical schools who hire tutors for their students if they don't do well, so yeah of course, I'm going to shoot my shot at those schools.

I wasn't planning on applying to Kaiser. I think UCLA has a relatively high percent of students they accept who have completed post baccalaureate work, so that surprises me a bit(as per MSAR).

 

[inwantstobeadoctor]

Honestly apply where you want to. Just make sure you're as competitive as the next applicant. Good luck!

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. I believe I have in fact said "we can agree to disagree." I'm simply expressing my thoughts. I wouldn't post anything that I didn't believe was true, so no I haven't had posts of reticent agreement if I didn't agree with what was being said.

I have considered what was said, so I'm not entirely sure where you are coming from.

Yes, I am very aware of how difficult it is to get in to medical school.

I'll remind the OP that many of us are admissions officers or faculty so you are trying to change our minds. I can't imagine you acting differently in conversing with other admissions recruiters or deans or faculty at recruitment events.

I think you grossly underestimate the resources you get at any school not in the top 20. Not all resources are based in the school's control, and the world of higher education is smaller than you think. I'm not saying you're thinking is wrong to want a School with student support but I don't know your reasons why you would need it if you were in trouble in addition to excelling. The curriculum makes a bigger difference and how support is structured around it would make more sense in your argument.

 

[momoneymoproblems19]

Honestly, I really wanted to end this thread on @inwantstobeadoctor's post. I think it's a rather fair to say to apply where I want, if I can be a competitive applicant by the time applications roll around.

I will repeat myself when I say I am not trying to change anyone's minds. If anyone feels from this thread that I am not worthy to matriculate at the medical school they are employed at and wants to judge that before I even apply, then they have the right to decide that and maybe that medical school isn't for me. I normally don't talk about my stats at recruitment events, but to each, their own.

I hope you are right about the resources at different medical schools. I don't really consider myself in trouble, but thank you for your input! In terms of curriculum, I am looking for medical school with shortened preclinical and flipped classroom but again am open to pretty much anything.

 

[momoneymoproblems19]

@Mr.Smile12 you also agreed to protect member anonymity when agreeing to use this site

 

[Mr.Smile12]

@Mr.Smile12 you also agreed to protect member anonymity when agreeing to use this site

You still have it. (I don't always remember everyone here unless they're one of the frequent-posting experts.) I also abide by the general rule that whenever I'm teaching or posting on the forum, I'm often not usually addressing just you. Some people do use the forums as a sandbox for their thoughts (and only that, thank goodness).