Concierge FP

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Sure! Biggest cost was the buildout of a new facility.

Could other doctors do it cheaper? Without a doubt.

Basic office, basic staff, etc. maybe $15k/mo on the high end for a 2-3 doctor practice.
 
And what kind of savings are your clients getting on their insurance? Do they only need catastrophic coverage? If so, I would then assume that you almost never refer out for medical consultants.
 
Of course there's a wide range of insurance savings depending on what type of insurance we're transitioning them from. But, for businesses, we typically can save 30-50% on the cost of health insurance for businesses and families.

Yes, we recommend major medical with an HSA in combo with a DPC practice.

We can always refer if needed, but we work hard to manage our patients care as much as we can or is appropriate.
 
Sorry to revive the old thread but do you think that the upcoming waves of newly insured patients (thanks to affordable care act) will dampen the outlook for this kind of service?

EDIT:
I just read in http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2013/04/successfully-starting-direct-pay-practice-trickle-economics.html that it may actually boost outlook
"One of the provisions in the Accountable Care Act (ACA) is that small businesses (with over 50 employees) who want to avoid the penalty for not having insurance can opt to contract with a direct-care physician like myself in conjunction with a high-deductible health care plan. Even though I have made no effort to attract such interest, I've already been approached by 2 businesses of 100 employees to make such an arrangement."
 
Sorry to revive the old thread but do you think that the upcoming waves of newly insured patients (thanks to affordable care act) will dampen the outlook for this kind of service?

EDIT:
I just read in http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2013/04/successfully-starting-direct-pay-practice-trickle-economics.html that it may actually boost outlook
"One of the provisions in the Accountable Care Act (ACA) is that small businesses (with over 50 employees) who want to avoid the penalty for not having insurance can opt to contract with a direct-care physician like myself in conjunction with a high-deductible health care plan. Even though I have made no effort to attract such interest, I’ve already been approached by 2 businesses of 100 employees to make such an arrangement."

I think it depends on what you mean by "newly insured patients". If you are talking about medicaid expansion then I don't think it will have an effect (maybe I'm wrong though) because these patients will be on...medicaid.

But if you are talking about the ACA forcing people to buy insurance/coverage then I think it will boost this direct primary care model. Think about it, who are the people that can't afford current insurance premiums and who will not be eligible for medicaid? The working poor. From the prices/rates that Atlas is mentioning this model seems to be extremely affordable. Flat monthly rate for unlimited access to a physician that can hopefully help keep them out of emergency rooms.
 
I think it depends on what you mean by "newly insured patients". If you are talking about medicaid expansion then I don't think it will have an effect (maybe I'm wrong though) because these patients will be on...medicaid.

But if you are talking about the ACA forcing people to buy insurance/coverage then I think it will boost this direct primary care model. Think about it, who are the people that can't afford current insurance premiums and who will not be eligible for medicaid? The working poor. From the prices/rates that Atlas is mentioning this model seems to be extremely affordable. Flat monthly rate for unlimited access to a physician that can hopefully help keep them out of emergency rooms.

I really think this direct care model is going to redefine how much of healthcare in this country is delivered. Think about it, most of the problems people (who aren't frequent flyers) that show up to the ED have indeed need immediate medical evaluation and could be very serious illnesses. However, a large portion of them do not require more than a well equipped primary care office's equipment to effectively diagnose and treat. I had a kidney stone a while back. The EM doc did a CT, IV fluids, and pain meds and I was on my way. $600 with insurance. I'm fairly certain an Atlas like practice could have handled it with office ultrasound and oral pain meds for almost nothing in comparison. That is the same price of an entire year of his practice's service, and I already pay for good insurance.
 
Josh - I really enjoy hearing about your real life experience in this appealing practice structure. I start MS1 this July and your posts have revived my dismissed interest in primary care. I have a few general questions if you don't mind. Thank you so much for your time and for lighting a path for future PCP-wannabes

Establishing practice -
-What were your economic, marketing, minimum patient base, etc goals for the first month, first year, etc?
-Where was/is your economic breakeven point, time-wise?
-What equipment/material minimums did you start with?
-How difficult was arranging agreements for labs, and establishing a referral base for consults/referrals?
-Were there any steps along the way that made you doubt the practice viability, any hurdles that nearly broke your idea?

Training-
-If I wanted to pursue this path in my home community in the next 10 years (~100,000 population)...
-Would there be any advantage to additional training beyond FM, say a combined FM/EM program? I've heard good things about them.
-What additional services/care do you believe I could provide with the EM exposure/certification? Increased care of EM type complaints in house? Purchase additional equipment to cover these scenarios? or just send them to the local ER?
-Would I benefit from working 1-3 years in the local hospital system, both to pay off loans, and to establish patient relationships/familiarize myself with the style of patients in the community?
-If I love my job (feels like this would provide that potential), then I'm not as hung up on the thought of income. However, I will have substantial loans to combat in my first 5 years as an attending (think 300-400 after interest). I'm also looking at the Midwest, in an area with large health care facilities within <1hr drive. I can not find any direct care providers in my state, let alone area. So, can a FM/EM in your model expect to make 200-250 and still maintain a healthy physician-patient-personal lifestyle balance? How does the potential income stack up in a climate like this?

Sorry for the novel, but this is very exciting to think about and I enjoy planning early and thoroughly. Thank you so much for your time!
 
Hi Adam, sorry for the delay but thank you very much for the email and for the questions. Very exciting to hear that our model could help medical students realize the full potential in family medicine. The direct primary care model allows for greater patient satisfaction, physician satisfaction, physician income, decreased stress etc.

Establishing practice -
-What were your economic, marketing, minimum patient base, etc goals for the first month, first year, etc?
Economics &#8211; A practice can be started on any budget. I moonlighted heavily in residency to start with a nice office and a fair amount of medical equipment. However these are personal decisions based on your goals and your budget.
Marketing &#8211; although we some limited print media advertising, the most effective advertising was radio. For approximately the same price as our print advertising, we were able to get significantly more results.
Patient base &#8211; typically we say 400-600 patients per physician. However this can vary depending on your model or specialty. For instance a pediatric practice may have 1000 or more patients but at a lower price. Initially we hope to grow at 10 patients per month but we routinely grow at 30 to 50 patients per month. I believe this is in large part to our value proposition. Atlas MD is a high value low cost model with our unlimited visits, no co-pays, free procedures, wholesale pricing on medicines and labs. We're now approaching our 34th month with nearly 1200 patients, so we are several years ahead of schedule.
-Where was/is your economic breakeven point, time-wise?
Your profitability depends a lot on your overhead and your desired income. You could be profitable at around 400 patients in the remainder 200 would be additional income.
-What equipment/material minimums did you start with?
Due to my heavy moonlighting for startup capital, we were able to start with a dexa scanner, EKG, Holter monitor, spirometry, ultrasound, medical laser.
-How difficult was arranging agreements for labs, and establishing a referral base for consults/referrals?
It was very easy to work with labs, pharmaceutical distributors and imaging centers for negotiated rates.
-Were there any steps along the way that made you doubt the practice viability, any hurdles that nearly broke your idea?
Every entrepreneur has sometimes where they are nervous or question their plan. Thankfully, we did a significant amount of preparation to ensure success. I really appreciate the quote "the harder I work, the luckier I get."

Training-
-If I wanted to pursue this path in my home community in the next 10 years (~100,000 population)...

-Would there be any advantage to additional training beyond FM, say a combined FM/EM program? I've heard good things about them.
Share. Any extra training you can get is very beneficial. I was fortunate enough to spend a significant amount of time moonlighting in the ER during my second and third years of training. That your experience has been very beneficial in my practice both financially and professionally. If you can moonlight in the ER as well, you may not need a dual board certification. Any additional skills like ultrasounds, procedures, counseling, are all very beneficial to your practice.
-What additional services/care do you believe I could provide with the EM exposure/certification? Increased care of EM type complaints in house? Purchase additional equipment to cover these scenarios? or just send them to the local ER?
Laceration repair, biopsies, joint injections, casting, splinting are all excellent skills.
-Would I benefit from working 1-3 years in the local hospital system, both to pay off loans, and to establish patient relationships/familiarize myself with the style of patients in the community?
That is a personal decision. However I think you'd be better off to start the practice right of residency. You are able to moonlight and urgent care, ER, locums, hospitalists etc. as your practice gets off the ground. I think by the time you get close to finishing residency, direct primary care will be much more common. This will make it easier for you to start your practice.

-If I love my job (feels like this would provide that potential), then I'm not as hung up on the thought of income. However, I will have substantial loans to combat in my first 5 years as an attending (think 300-400 after interest). I'm also looking at the Midwest, in an area with large health care facilities within <1hr drive. I can not find any direct care providers in my state, let alone area. So, can a FM/EM in your model expect to make 200-250 and still maintain a healthy physician-patient-personal lifestyle balance? How does the potential income stack up in a climate like this?
Absolutely. The basic math is as follows: an average of $50 per patient per month times 600 patients equals 30,000 per month times 12 month equals $360,000 per year -30% overhead equals $240,000 per year. This is just basic math, but very similar to how our practice operates.

I hope that helps, but feel free to ask any other questions.

Thanks!
 
Hi Adam, sorry for the delay but thank you very much for the email and for the questions. Very exciting to hear that our model could help medical students realize the full potential in family medicine. The direct primary care model allows for greater patient satisfaction, physician satisfaction, physician income, decreased stress etc.

Establishing practice -
-What were your economic, marketing, minimum patient base, etc goals for the first month, first year, etc?
Economics – A practice can be started on any budget. I moonlighted heavily in residency to start with a nice office and a fair amount of medical equipment. However these are personal decisions based on your goals and your budget.
Marketing – although we some limited print media advertising, the most effective advertising was radio. For approximately the same price as our print advertising, we were able to get significantly more results.
Patient base – typically we say 400-600 patients per physician. However this can vary depending on your model or specialty. For instance a pediatric practice may have 1000 or more patients but at a lower price. Initially we hope to grow at 10 patients per month but we routinely grow at 30 to 50 patients per month. I believe this is in large part to our value proposition. Atlas MD is a high value low cost model with our unlimited visits, no co-pays, free procedures, wholesale pricing on medicines and labs. We're now approaching our 34th month with nearly 1200 patients, so we are several years ahead of schedule.
-Where was/is your economic breakeven point, time-wise?
Your profitability depends a lot on your overhead and your desired income. You could be profitable at around 400 patients in the remainder 200 would be additional income.
-What equipment/material minimums did you start with?
Due to my heavy moonlighting for startup capital, we were able to start with a dexa scanner, EKG, Holter monitor, spirometry, ultrasound, medical laser.
-How difficult was arranging agreements for labs, and establishing a referral base for consults/referrals?
It was very easy to work with labs, pharmaceutical distributors and imaging centers for negotiated rates.
-Were there any steps along the way that made you doubt the practice viability, any hurdles that nearly broke your idea?
Every entrepreneur has sometimes where they are nervous or question their plan. Thankfully, we did a significant amount of preparation to ensure success. I really appreciate the quote "the harder I work, the luckier I get."

Training-
-If I wanted to pursue this path in my home community in the next 10 years (~100,000 population)...

-Would there be any advantage to additional training beyond FM, say a combined FM/EM program? I've heard good things about them.
Share. Any extra training you can get is very beneficial. I was fortunate enough to spend a significant amount of time moonlighting in the ER during my second and third years of training. That your experience has been very beneficial in my practice both financially and professionally. If you can moonlight in the ER as well, you may not need a dual board certification. Any additional skills like ultrasounds, procedures, counseling, are all very beneficial to your practice.
-What additional services/care do you believe I could provide with the EM exposure/certification? Increased care of EM type complaints in house? Purchase additional equipment to cover these scenarios? or just send them to the local ER?
Laceration repair, biopsies, joint injections, casting, splinting are all excellent skills.
-Would I benefit from working 1-3 years in the local hospital system, both to pay off loans, and to establish patient relationships/familiarize myself with the style of patients in the community?
That is a personal decision. However I think you'd be better off to start the practice right of residency. You are able to moonlight and urgent care, ER, locums, hospitalists etc. as your practice gets off the ground. I think by the time you get close to finishing residency, direct primary care will be much more common. This will make it easier for you to start your practice.

-If I love my job (feels like this would provide that potential), then I'm not as hung up on the thought of income. However, I will have substantial loans to combat in my first 5 years as an attending (think 300-400 after interest). I'm also looking at the Midwest, in an area with large health care facilities within <1hr drive. I can not find any direct care providers in my state, let alone area. So, can a FM/EM in your model expect to make 200-250 and still maintain a healthy physician-patient-personal lifestyle balance? How does the potential income stack up in a climate like this?
Absolutely. The basic math is as follows: an average of $50 per patient per month times 600 patients equals 30,000 per month times 12 month equals $360,000 per year -30% overhead equals $240,000 per year. This is just basic math, but very similar to how our practice operates.

I hope that helps, but feel free to ask any other questions.

Thanks!

AtlasMD, thank you for sharing all this here. I stumbled across AAPS several years ago, shortly after I left clinical practice (totally burnt out and disgusted) to go into consulting. It's been an interesting few years, but I'm working towards re-training and getting back to clinical work. There exists a high probability I'd do something like this. The startup costs/logistics scare me but I bet by the time I'm ready, there will be opportunities to join existing practices.
 
Notinkansas: I'm confident that you'd love practicing medicine in this model. Feel free to contact me directly anytime. I'm always happy to answers any questions. Also, we do google handouts on Tuesdays and Thursdays 830pm CST to answer questions.

Best
Josh
 
Notice the comments from Joe Public are actually hugely supportive. I think people are hungry for this.
 
Thanks Fonzie!! Yes it's great to see how positive most people are responding. But when you provide so much value for them it's understandable 🙂
 

Scroll down in the piece to find reservations about the model expressed by a statist:

"Kathleen Stoll, director of health policy at the consumer advocacy group Families U.S.A., didn't want to speak directly to either Petersen's or Nunamaker's practice, as she didn't know the specifics of each.
But in general, she fears that doctors who switch to a cash-only model will drive away the patients who can't afford a monthly membership fee or thousands of dollars for an operation.
"They cherry-pick among their patient population to serve only the wealthier ones," Stoll said. "It certainly creates a barrier to care." "

We have too many "directors of health policy" running around. The charges for you clinic make it quite reasonable- not just "for the rich"
 
Longtime lurker/admirer of Josh/AtlasMD's business model.

I'll be taking over a long standing IM private practice in 4-6 yrs if all goes well. Several of the things Atlas mentioned were already incorporated previously. The major thing left to do is to dissociate from the insurance companies. (Easier said than done, I suppose!) I hope to switch the practice to this model some day. Bring the focus back to medicine and keep it there.
 
Scroll down in the piece to find reservations about the model expressed by a statist:

"Kathleen Stoll, director of health policy at the consumer advocacy group Families U.S.A., didn't want to speak directly to either Petersen's or Nunamaker's practice, as she didn't know the specifics of each.
But in general, she fears that doctors who switch to a cash-only model will drive away the patients who can't afford a monthly membership fee or thousands of dollars for an operation.
"They cherry-pick among their patient population to serve only the wealthier ones," Stoll said. "It certainly creates a barrier to care." "

We have too many "directors of health policy" running around. The charges for you clinic make it quite reasonable- not just "for the rich"

Ugh. People like that are exactly why we are stuck in this mess. Notice how dishonest and disingenuous she is.
 
thanks for the support. If you ever need any help making the transition, I am always happy to do whatever I can. Good luck!
 

I saw their report on CNN during yesterday morning's show. The anchor woman kept saying "I don't see how this is good for patients" while cringing her face. Guess we know CNN's take on this. Definitely found it a bit annoying that they were somewhat painting the physician as the greedy bad guy, without highlighting the fact that it's the insurance companies who are bending everyone over.
 
I saw their report on CNN during yesterday morning's show. The anchor woman kept saying "I don't see how this is good for patients" while cringing her face.

[Devil's Advocate]Well, to be fair, it's not so good for the 1800 or so patients who would have to look for another doctor (and maybe not find one).*

*Based on the typical panel size of 2000-2500 patients in a traditional insurance-based practice, vs. the typical panel size of 500-600 in the typical concierge practice.
 
Come on blue dog, that's a straw man argument when you consider many docs are thinking of leaving completely.
 
[Devil's Advocate]Well, to be fair, it's not so good for the 1800 or so patients who would have to look for another doctor (and maybe not find one).*

*Based on the typical panel size of 2000-2500 patients in a traditional insurance-based practice, vs. the typical panel size of 500-600 in the typical concierge practice.[/Devil's Advocate]

Tell them they can take it up with their insurance company. :naughty:
 
Come on blue dog, that's a straw man argument when you consider many docs are thinking of leaving completely.

No, it's not a straw man argument. Look up the definition. If anything, arguing that physicians would leave medicine completely is a straw man argument. What are they going to do instead, fold clothes at The Gap?

Tell them they can take it up with their insurance company. :naughty:

Yeah, you could do that. Not sure how it helps, however.
 
No, it's not a straw man argument. Look up the definition. If anything, arguing that physicians would leave medicine completely is a straw man argument. What are they going to do instead, fold clothes at The Gap?



I'm not in a concierge practice. I don't have to tell them anything.

Arguing patients will have nowhere to go is just as 'straw man'. What are they going to do instead, voodoo their ailments away?

You don't have to tell them anything. However, thats who they should take it up with if they suddenly have no doctor to see.
 
Just in case you missed the "Devil's Advocate" part, look again. 😉

I'm not anti-concierge. Just don't kid yourself about what you're doing.
 
Taking back some control, and giving patients the attention they need. How horrible...

The reality is that you're putting your own needs before those of the public, no matter how you try to justify it.

Again, I'm not condemning it. I just think it's disingenuous to pretend that it's entirely noble.

I don't accept Medicaid. I'm not bragging about it, though.
 
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The reality is that you're putting your own needs before those of the public, no matter how you try to justify it.

Again, I'm not condemning it. I just think it's disingenuous to pretend that it's entirely noble.

I don't accept Medicaid. I'm not bragging about it, though.

True. We should all just work for minimum wage or free. Greedy doctors.
 
Medicare, Medicaid...if we ever go single-payer, it won't matter what it's called.

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Come on now Blue dog, i thought we were friends, but a few arguments and i'm sure we can keep this civil.

straw man argument - a logical fallacy - is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position,
-- Yes, i would say that you misrepresented our position. The greater point of your question (if i may) is that "won't this worsen the physician shortage". This may be a crude analogy but that's like blaming the rape victim. This is a model that may actually FIX the system. The CURRENT system is what has lead to the shortage and will lead to even more doctors getting out if we do nothing. Then where will we be. Sure, any market correction will be painful, for a time, but this model has the chance to keep older doctors in practice for years/decades longer than they otherwise would. Could attract specialist back to primary care as the incentives improve. Attract medical students and residents to family medicine / primary care / IM / peds etc where they can serve the most people - ie do the most good.

Plus, this model achieves the triple aim of healthcare like no other option does -- http://www.ihi.org/offerings/Initiatives/TripleAim/Pages/default.aspx . Flat pricing regardless of medical condition, unlimited visits, all office procedures and testing included free of charge, wholesale pricing on medicines and labs for up to a 95% savings and a 30-50% savings on the cost of monthly health insurance premiums. All while providing better, more convenient care.

I understand a difference of opinion. But we just can go off criticizing EVER option that comes along.


You're DAMN right i'm putting my own needs first. Is there another option? I build a model that helps patients entirely out of my own selfish regard. I want to feed my family and provide the best possible life for them. Out of that I build a model that gives them more healthcare for less money than they've ever had. Not to different than any business out there like plumbers, Steve Jobs, etc.

I'll do you one better than being selfish, I'm profitable. And its a sad day when thats viewed as a negative. I've seen what has happened to medicine over the last several decades when money/profit was viewed as bad. An awful system is what our patients got in return for that mentality. So why don't we try something different for a change. I know 1200 people in my office who are better for it.

"Run for your life from any man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. -- ayn rand
 
courage invites critics -- car commercial 🙂
 
Bluedog, Qliance's statistics show a 144% increase in primary care utilization (counting after hours) across their concierge practices and about a 50% decrease in utilization of the rest of the entire healthcare system (ED, imaging, surg) in their patients compared to average HMO utilization. They have quite a few patients including many medicare patients, so I think the data has external validity. They show a 30% decrease in net costs for patients using their service compared to the average HMO. I think the barriers to care we have set up because of the large 2500+ patient panels have increased costs rather than decreased them, and then the resulting care isn't as good when they go elsewhere. More imaging, more useless MSK surgeries with marginal benefits, more -ologist visits for problems that could easily be handled in house.

As an example, average panel size in the UK is 1500 patients, and after hours coverage is much better than it is in the US (they still do housecalls and will schedule appointments outside of normal hours).

Also, single payer will be struck down in the courts here if it is ever attempted just as it was struck down in Canada.
 
Don't get me wrong, Qliance is a good model. But as an added note, they don't do wholesale Meds/labs to the full extent that we do. So those numbers only get better when you add services like wholesale Meds/labs.

Oh and we have been able to do this wo millions in investment capital from amazon and dell.
 
Absolutely. What specialty and ill suggest some math
 
Oof, I don't know. I'm just going into M1 this fall and while it may change, so far I'm interested in more of the surgical specialties. I know these guys have a discounted direct-care model:

http://www.surgerycenterok.com/

But they are more one-time than by subscription. I just have a difficult time imagining a subscription based direct-care model for anything other than primary care.
 
Correct. Surgery is likely a fee for service model. But that's fine. Just like this surgical center, you offer a great service at a fair price.
 
Come on now Blue dog, i thought we were friends, but a few arguments and i'm sure we can keep this civil.

What did I say that wasn't civil?

Remember, I prefaced my comment with [Devil's Advocate][/Devil's Advocate].

Neither of us is wrong, by the way. Two different sides of the same coin. I think it's important to keep things in perspective.
 
Sorry blue, the civil part was for me. Not in reference to anything you said.
 
It's so much easier to be complacent and let the CEOs of insurance companies line their pockets. I commend Atlas for his paradigm shift: cutting out the middle man and providing outstanding medical services at an affordable price. (Around the price of a cell phone plan)

In Psych many insurance companies have a cap of 20 visits and have undervalued our training in psychotherapy. Do I want 1000 psych patients that I am seeing once every 3 months for 10 min handing out prozac like pez? Hell no... that's not good care.

Insurance companies didn't go to medical school to help patients. They are in the business of making money off patients and docs. Atlas pays himself a decent salary (nothing extravagant) and gives all the savings to his patients plus his undivided attention and availability. How many physicians are willing to do that?

Its time for primary care to take charge! You go brother!
 
I don't know of any insurance company that would offer to charge a $10 monthly premium with no copay for a child to have unlimited pcp visits. AtlasMD wins.
 
What are the legal ramifications for starting a practice like this if you are already working as a part-time urgent care doctor or employed hospitalist? If my job allows external moonlighting, can I start a practice like this without insurance companies breathing down my back?
 
I don't know of any insurance company that would offer to charge a $10 monthly premium with no copay for a child to have unlimited pcp visits. AtlasMD wins.

Apple and oranges. Most any insurance premium would also cover the child's medications, hospitalization, cancer treatment, etc. in addition to primary care.

Also, that $10/month for the child is based on at least one adult parent paying $50/month, as well. So, figure $60/month for two people. That's $720/year.

A typical healthy adult and healthy child would probably not pay that much in insurance co-pays for a couple of routine office visits per year apiece (the average), even if the adult had a physical with basic labs. By definition, AtlasMD's patients are a self-selected population who feel that he's providing them good value. If they didn't, they wouldn't be his patients. And, lots of people aren't his patients. 😉

Don't forget that most patients are (or should be) paying for high-deductible catastrophic insurance coverage on top of whatever they're paying you out-of-pocket for primary care.
 
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