Conference Attendance

[schweet]

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I think this is an offshoot of the earlier threads regarding Chief Residents and CP training.

Regarding conference attendance - Is it mandatory at your institution?
And if you miss a certain percentage - are there any consequences?

We are evaluating this at our program and I'd like to see how other programs address this?

Thx

 

[macrocyte]

Not required here.

 

[yaah]

We're supposed to attend I think 75% of conferences. However, there are several residents who probably attend 10% of conferences, at best. The only ones they attend are the ones where they are presenting or they are trying to suck up to a certain attending.

I don't know what "penalties" the residents who don't go receive (other, of course, than not learning things). There have been rumors of denying book fund money or something like that, but it's probably not a realistic threat, at least as long as the slacker rate remains under 50% (we have a fairly large program, so at 50% attendance there are still quite a few people).

There are a couple of reasons I think why programs push for conference attendance. One is that I believe it is some sort of requirement for ACGME accreditation to have conferences and have them attended. The other is that it is respectful to the people giving the conferences.

 

[levels x3]

Conferences are "mandatory" at our program, though like at yaah's program, we really only shoot for something like 75%. I have no idea what the consequences are for falling below this number, probably a stern lecture or something along those lines. Most residents have no trouble attending the majority of conferences. The residents are in charge of taking attendance on a rotating basis.

Really a much bigger problem/issue is "late-itis" as one of my fellow residents calls it. We have people who live fewer than 10 minutes away who roll into conference 5-10 minutes late on a routine basis. I'm not immune from this either (nobody is)...but 95+% of the time I'm there before morning conferences start. The chiefs will mention it every so often and it will get better for a time and then fall back to the old status quo. I have no idea how to deal with this issue.

 

[green mantis]

This may have to be split into 2 categories, intradepartmental & interdepartmental.

At my residency, intradepartmental conferences were mandatory for AP residents unless they're called away for frozens. Most CP residents were expected to attend, but they're rotations have priority.

Interdepartmental conferences, such as tumor boards, weren't mandatory. This was kind of disappointing because sometimes the presenter was the only person representing pathology. I think it's important for attendings to defend the cases they sign out.


----- Antony

 

[yaah]

I get irritated with the constantly late also. There is always an excuse, or a, "it's not such a big deal" kind of comment. But the point is that some of us do show up on time, and whoever gives the conference often waits for more people to arrive before starting, so basically we're wasting time to benefit people who can't figure out how to set their alarm for 15 minutes earlier. There are a couple of people for whom it's hard to get in on time for daycare reasons or whatever, that doesn't bother me as much obviously.

 

[schweet]

We were just thinking of the intradepartmental conferences only (the standard 0800, noon didatics, unknowns, frozens, call review etc) I think ACGME requires programs to prove they educate us and they allow for different formats: conferences w/ sign- sheets are an easy way for programs to meet these requirements. Interdepartment conferences are nearly impossible to require - but I agree, they can be the most useful as we get older and when you are the one "explaining the diagnosis" it would be nice to have the attending who signed out the case "in the front row".

I guess our issue is not only lateness (after 15 mins should you really show up to a room that seats only about 50 people - walk all over eveyone, pull out a chair and open a can of Coke and a Power Bar? ) but now as the "year" winds down it seems there's a sense of fatigue and "boarditis". We've actually started to structure some conferences in a 'review' like format to help out the seniors. But our conference attendance recently is abysmal.

I checked with some of the other specialities here - many give extra call the next month if a minimal percentage is not attended. Our program is considering extra call, deducting book funds, and travel funds. We'll see what happens.
Thx

 

[Matte Kudesai]

I think it is generally a mistake to require attendance. People generally vote with their feet and low attendance is often a symptom of an ineffective meeting. Requiring attendance will not make the meetings better. Indeed, forcing disinterested preoccupied people to attend is likely to make the meetings less useful. On the other hand, useful meetings will attract attendance. The key is to find the reason for poor attendance and fix that rather than to issue a bandaid edict requiring attendance.

Have conferences at 10 am ish and provide yummy snacks and chair massages.

Better yet podcast the conference.

I always think of that bugs bunny cartoon with the singing frog.

What really packed the house was free beer.

Seriously though do some programs record and podcast conferences?

 

[yaah]

I think it is generally a mistake to require attendance. People generally vote with their feet and low attendance is often a symptom of an ineffective meeting. Requiring attendance will not make the meetings better. Indeed, forcing disinterested preoccupied people to attend is likely to make the meetings less useful. On the other hand, useful meetings will attract attendance. The key is to find the reason for poor attendance and fix that rather than to issue a bandaid edict requiring attendance.

I think that is true to some extent, but it's also a handy excuse to pass off. I mean, there are some people, like I said, who basically go to no conferences, so how would they know if they're even good or not? Some people don't go because there are occasional conferences where the attendings like us to prepare a little and they don't want to be put on the spot (as if it was going to be anywhere near malignant 🙄 ).

There are some conferences we have that people are less interested in, sure. But that is a minor reason for most lackadaisical attendance. Some people say the problem is that there are too many conferences. I dunno, I basically made it part of my routine - 8-9am is conference time, I don't plan anything else for that hour.

 

[DarksideAllstar]

Seriously though do some programs record and podcast conferences?

In our program, all AP and CP powerpoint lectures and audio are captured with Camtasia and then posted to the secure area of our department website, making it easy to review lectures from the website, download them to iTunes and watch them on your iPod, etc.

 

[PathJet]

We were just thinking of the intradepartmental conferences only (the standard 0800, noon didatics, unknowns, frozens, call review etc) I think ACGME requires programs to prove they educate us and they allow for different formats: conferences w/ sign- sheets are an easy way for programs to meet these requirements.

Thx

yep there is an acgme requirement. there was routine site visit and they want to see the attendance sheets etc for conferances

 

[Matte Kudesai]

In our program, all AP and CP powerpoint lectures and audio are captured with Camtasia and then posted to the secure area of our department website, making it easy to review lectures from the website, download them to iTunes and watch them on your iPod, etc.

That is awesome.....
You should charge to give outsiders access.

 

[DarksideAllstar]

That is awesome.....
You should charge to give outsiders access.

I had thought about it briefly. It is pretty nice to have when you want to review things. I can log on to the website, find the file (all are listed by topic [ie Microbiology, Parasites], lecturer, and date), and press the play button.

Conference attendance is required here (you need to have gone to >75% of them), but I've noticed that attendance fluctuates with the lecturer and how good he/she is. Good ones always get everyone to come, bad ones get people who show up and sleep through it anyway...

 

[DarksideAllstar]

Perhaps presenters should be required to be good enough to attract 75% attendance.

My sentiments exactly. Why exactly are you forcing us to come listen to someone read word for word off their powerpoint?? I could do it at home and get twice as much out of it by looking things up as I went through it. I have probably been to >90% of lectures this year, which I think is pretty good compared to a host of other people, but it doesn't mean that I got anything out of them.

 

[EUA]

Realistically, how would a program "punish" the chronic late and/or absent? I can't see how you could force someone to take extra call, or get away with deducting book funds, especially in this day and age.

It's just sad that adult physicians need to be treated like children. Or maybe it's sad that they act like children. The chicken or the egg, man, who knows.

 

[yaah]

Yeah, that's always the problem. Enforcement.

I guess you could portray as a variation - awarding things like a book fund or whatever as a reward for good attendance. But see, people (particularly people who skip conferences) always have excuses. And it isn't really worth it for programs to fight these battles.

What bothers me also is that the same people who skip conferences are the same people who complain the most about conditions within the program (work hours, grossing issues, lack of advice in boards preparation or career counseling, etc). And what gets me more is that sometimes we will be at conference and there will be like 5-6 residents, and those of us there have to answer all the questions as to why more residents aren't at conferences.

 

[Dermbound00]

Who cares about conference attendence? There are much more important things in life to worry about. You cant enforce it. If people show up, even one person, give the conference. If not, then don't give it. I hate how anal retentive academic medicine can be. The only way it can be of use is if someone never shows up, does poor on their daily signouts, has no knowledge of pathology, scores below an 8th grade grammar school student on the RISE, and is a lazy bum. With all of that evidence a program has a right to kick that resident to the curb. Other than that suck it up, be a man, and quit complaining about attendence. Again the programs, it seems, that have issues with these things are lower tier programs.

 

[106174]

Other than that suck it up, be a man, and quit complaining about attendence. Again the programs, it seems, that have issues with these things are lower tier programs.

I vehemently disagree. We have this problem at UTSW and we are a top tier program. At the CAP RF, this issue has come up several times, and all programs from all tiers have raised concern over this problem.

The ACGME requires that residency programs have conferences. Trust me, if the faculty had a choice, they would much rather do their job without having to give conferences. They spend so much time preparing for these lectures - time that they can spend signing out and getting their work done. Faculty are required to give residents lectures to fulfill an ACGME requirement, so why should residents not be required to attend them?

 

[Dermbound00]

I vehemently disagree. We have this problem at UTSW and we are a top tier program. At the CAP RF, this issue has come up several times, and all programs from all tiers have raised concern over this problem.

The ACGME requires that residency programs have conferences. Trust me, if the faculty had a choice, they would much rather do their job without having to give conferences. They spend so much time preparing for these lectures - time that they can spend signing out and getting their work done. Faculty are required to give residents lectures to fulfill an ACGME requirement, so why should residents not be required to attend them?

Well I guess we all can argue what a top tier program is.

If you are complaining about giving lectures and are an academic pathologist, then maybe you should have gone into private practice. Teaching is one of the main responsibilities of academic pathologists and far too many just do not belong in academics because they are not good teachers. Research, teaching, and signing out. If you cant do these things, then go into private practice.

Residents should not be required because:
1) They are physicians and grown adults and not children
2) They are responsible for their own education and future...The training is available and if you choose not to go, it is your loss
3) There is NO WAY to enforce this

 

[levels x3]

Several posts ago, when I said I had no idea how to deal with this problem it was because there is no possible enforcement mechanism. We can only appeal to people's sense of decency and expect them to respect their colleagues and attendings by showing up on time. Walking in significantly late on a routine basis is just rude. It's disrespectful to the person giving the conference and to those of us who got our behinds out of bed early enough to make it on time.

I am certainly not perfect when it comes to attendance. In fact, there is a particular weekly conference that sometimes takes an act of god to get me to attend...it's just a horrible conference. I go most weeks, but when I can't face the prospect of sitting there for an hour, I just don't go. I would argue that waltzing in 15 minutes late is worse than not going at all.

 

[Dermbound00]

The late thing annoys me as well. I attended most conferences and our program took attendence but did not make a big deal whether residents attended or not. Residents got credit for attending a conference when they showed up 30 minutes late. Sure, it is ridiculous however who really cares?
As long as the information is being given, if people do not want to attend, it is their choice. There is nothing you or anyone can do. You can hold 50 RF meetings and waste your time. It does not matter.
You are in academics. Prepare for the lecture and give it. If no one attends then you can go back to your work. Stop being such babies.
Taking attendence is fine and the only situation it really matters is when residents are performing poorly. Other than that, suck it up.

 

[106174]

Well I guess we all can argue what a top tier program is.

If you are complaining about giving lectures and are an academic pathologist, then maybe you should have gone into private practice. Teaching is one of the main responsibilities of academic pathologists and far too many just do not belong in academics because they are not good teachers. Research, teaching, and signing out. If you cant do these things, then go into private practice.

Residents should not be required because:
1) They are physicians and grown adults and not children
2) They are responsible for their own education and future...The training is available and if you choose not to go, it is your loss
3) There is NO WAY to enforce this

Whoever said they were complaining? Faculty continue to give lectures despite poor attendance. This issue comes up because the residents themselves (obviously those who religiously attend conferences) bring it up.

For somebody who I am assuming is going either into Dermatology or Dermatopathology, I would think you would have a different view on this. Dermatology conferences are WAY MORE rigorous than Pathology conferences. In fact, easily half of Dermatology residency is spent attending lectures and conferences.

And yes, we can all argue what a top tier program is. I do not have any insecurities about my program's place in this hierarchy that, from reading your 4 posts, you seem to put so much value on (your comment on top tier programs caring less about the RISE).

 

[cytoborg]

Conference attendance is required here (you need to have gone to >75% of them), but I've noticed that attendance fluctuates with the lecturer and how good he/she is.

I hadn't heard that we have an attendance requirement! Oh well...

Luckily at our program attendance really isn't an issue. We're lucky to have great faculty lectures and it also helps that most of us are pretty motivated about making the most of our learning experience, so attendance at our confs is good. And I think because we are interested, the faculty take their lectures more seriously so it's a positive feedback loop. Of course there are a few exceptions but the PD is also very responsive to our comments, so the lecture series each year is constantly being revised to expand or condense certain topics based on how useful we feel the lectures are. And of course, knowing they are being recorded for posterity probably is an incentive for giving a good lecture. 😉

 

[Matte Kudesai]

Who cares about conference attendence? There are much more important things in life to worry about. You cant enforce it. If people show up, even one person, give the conference. If not, then don't give it. I hate how anal retentive academic medicine can be. The only way it can be of use is if someone never shows up, does poor on their daily signouts, has no knowledge of pathology, scores below an 8th grade grammar school student on the RISE, and is a lazy bum. With all of that evidence a program has a right to kick that resident to the curb. Other than that suck it up, be a man, and quit complaining about attendence. Again the programs, it seems, that have issues with these things are lower tier programs.

Should the women suck it up and be a man too?

Are you already a dermie or a gonnabe?

 

[pathstudent]

What people who expect attendance and enforce draconian policies to ensure it don't understand is that most of us have never had a "real" real job and so we don't understand that part of being an adult professional means that we have the ability to show up on time and participate in activities simply because our leaders/supervisors/bosses/directors/seniors/administrators/accrediting agencies tell us to even if we don't perceive a direct immediate benefit.

The only thing we respond to is hoop jumping. If they made conferences and promptness a hoop that we had to jump through, then we would all go to 100% of them on time.

 

[CameronFrye]

We have basically 100% attendance for our mandatory lectures/conferences. I don't know what the issue is. Part of having a real job is doing what your supervisors ask you to do. Maybe the secret is that I'm at a smaller program, so you would quickly develop an unfavorable reputation with the attendings if you skipped out on everything. I don't know.

 

[yaah]

Part of having a real job is also having the common sense to realize that you are personally not the be-all and end-all of existence. A lot of residents treat everything that goes on in residency as for their own personal benefit and nothing more. They don't go to conference because it "isn't worth the time." The truth is you can learn something from people who have been there before and are taking the time out to teach. They don't have to. the program probably puts pressure on them to teach, yes, but the main reason they ultimately do it is that they like to teach. If conferences are bad then tell the program director. Don't just skip them. Conferences are an important way to learn, and if your program isn't holding up their end of the deal, then tell them. Conferences also BECOME better when residents go and participate. If you engage the speaker, it will be more productive. We have a lot of residents who go to conferences but basically hide in the back corner, I guess for fear of having to say something. They even do this at slide conferences. I don't get it, but whatever. No one here is mean.

I encountered it in med school too - there were a bunch of people in my class who never went to lecture. They slept in and studied on their own or tried to watch videos of the classes. They probably passed the tests just as well as anyone else, but I still thought it was unprofessional behavior. Again, you can always make some excuses about how you can learn better on your own, or whatever.

I do agree with the comment that there are far too many people in academics who are piss-poor teachers. These are likely the same people who didn't go to conferences during their residency (because they know everything already?). What gets me are people who do very little research AND are bad teachers. Then what are you doing in academics? The other problem, of course, is that many path departments put little emphasis on education - a teaching award can be seen as a badge of failure at some places. And yes, residents are ultimately responsible for their own education. But there are far too many residents who do not take this responsibility very seriously - conference attendance is but one indicator (of many) of this. Programs can't just dismiss residents for this though, because then they will be known as malignant and they will fail to get any decent residents in the future. It's a catch 22.

 

[EUA]

Yaah - so eloquently said - as always.

It really is a catch-22. Residents get angry about mandated conferences, saying they are a waste of time (when getting coffee and gossiping seems to be a preferred way to spend an hour), but they are also the first to complain about not getting enough good conferences. They fail to see the big picture: attendings don't want to put a lot of effort into conferences knowing the residents don't care/won't show, which then reinforces the idea that the conferences are poor; sadly, should more residents actually show up and act interested like professionals, maybe the attendings would be more enthusiastic about teaching. Should the attendings be the ones to step up and set a new standard? Well, probably, but life doesn't usually happen based on what "should be".

Pathstudent, I agree with you. I think it's kind of pathetic that so many residents -- adult physicians -- have no idea what constitutes appropriate professional behavior, and that oftentimes it includes doing things that you don't want, but are necessary for political and/or professional reasons. I've never met a more intelligent group of people who so profoundly lack common sense, good judgement, and professionalism. (A bit of a blanket statement, yes, but I felt the same way about many of the students in my med school class. Of course, when you start med school fresh from college at age 20, what the hell do you know about professionalism???)

 

[JustInCASE]

I think it's kind of pathetic that so many residents -- adult physicians -- have no idea what constitutes appropriate professional behavior

As you continue with your career, you will find that these behaviors don't magically disappear once residency is finished. A large number of attendings are just as immature and inconsiderate. It is sad but true. In fact, I am pretty sure I will be one of them.

With respect to required conferences, I do not believe that the ACGME specifically requires them, and therefore, does not require resident attendance. The ACGME does, however, require residencies to prove that they are educated their residents. You will find that many requirements by the ACGME are extremely vague, thus allowing residency programs to be creative when necessary as long as they can argue that they are abiding by credentialing rules. One of the easiest ways for a residency program to document residency education is through required conferences. Residencies that don't mind bending the truth simply tell the ACGME that their residents attend all required conferences; however, several PD have consciences, so they record attendance and present that information to the ACGME.

I do believe that required attendance to such conferences is a good thing and not unique to pathology. However, I believe that residency programs have to be realistic and establish proper guildlines. From what I have heard from several friends, it is common to require 75% attendance with violators being punishment with a formal reprimand which is filed in your residency folder. If the individual is having difficulties with their training, not attending conference can be used as fodder for remediation or worse. Having said this, the program must make every effort to protect lecture time so that residents are not be pulled away by other service duty. If a residency program cannot do this, then the whole required attendance and punishment thing has to be viewed with suspect.