Confused and in Debt

[letigre]

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I am applying to medical school atm the am also in the process of applying to the AFHPSP.

I don't want this to be another pros/cons thread, I just need very honest opinions.

Like: all other things aside....was it worth $200,000 in loans?

I feel like recruiters have caught me in a very vulnerable position, I am 42,000 in debt from undergrad and have financially UNSTABLE parents that haven't been able to help EVER. I don't blame them or anything, but at this point a free medical education sounds pretty good. However, I realize that there are significant downsides to the program, including some crappy standards of practice in military hospitals (a recurrent theme in other threads).

Please discuss, I value your help immensely!!

 

[sethco]

I am applying to medical school atm the am also in the process of applying to the AFHPSP.

I don't want this to be another pros/cons thread, I just need very honest opinions.

Like: all other things aside....was it worth $200,000 in loans?

I feel like recruiters have caught me in a very vulnerable position, I am 42,000 in debt from undergrad and have financially UNSTABLE parents that haven't been able to help EVER. I don't blame them or anything, but at this point a free medical education sounds pretty good. However, I realize that there are significant downsides to the program, including some crappy standards of practice in military hospitals (a recurrent theme in other threads).

Please discuss, I value your help immensely!!

Since this is not a pros/cons discussion, simple answer is no I would not do it again. This is even given the fact that I( would have came out with close to 250,000 in debt. BTW, I am not a medical student, I am a Flight Surgeon serving out my initial HPSP commitment, so I have a little more insight than the average pre-med/HPSP medical student.

There is no amount of money that would make me take the scholarship over again. Period!

I know it is probably not the response you are looking for, but seing as you have already looked at the pros/cons, you were probably expecting this. Just my opinion. Take it what its worth.

 

[Mirror Form]

There is no amount of money that would make me take the scholarship over again. Period!

Now now, lets not exagerate . . . I'd do it again for a billion dollars.

 

[Galo]

Now now, lets not exagerate . . . I'd do it again for a billion dollars.

I'd do it again for a billion, but not a penny less!!

Seriously, once you are in a hell situation and you realize where your counterparts are X years out compared to you, the initial potential monetary situation goes out the window. Especially if you end up in a high paying subspeciatly. My advice is DO NOT DO IT FOR THE MONEY!!! You will regret it!! That is a statement even the cheerleaders of military medicine will tell you.

You can defer your loans, and when you get out of med school, its likely you can find a job where they have a loan repayment program.

Best of luck, but steer clear of mil med.

 

[letigre]

Okay, so say that I'm not doing it just for the money, and that I would feel a certain satisfaction treating military personnel and their families....would it be worth it then? Or is the experience THAT BAD where you don't even feel like you're doing any good?

 

[elderjack21]

You can defer your loans...

We'll see.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=455867

 

[West Side]

Congratulations for even thinking about this. Most 21 year olds have been raised to simply fear leverage, most likely because their elders were taught the same thing. The fact is that debt, if used wisely, can be a great enhancement to your investment in your education.

The critical question you have to ask yourself is what is debt, and what does it mean to your daily life? You also have to ask yourself how much the debt costs you in the context of your overall financial picture.

The critical financial mistake I see people taking the HPSP scholarship for the money is that they mis-value their ability to choose. As you hopefully have read, you give up a host of freedoms, professional choices among them, when you sign up for the military. This is a huge, HUGE non-monetary cost that you really have to consider.

At the end of the day, keep in mind that educational debt is the cheapest money you will ever have access to. Figure it this way: almost any investment other than a checking account will yield more interest than that charged to you by the government on a student loan. Literally, almost anything. So the government is effectively PAYING you to take their money.

To analyze this numerically, look at it this way. Let's use your numbers:

- You claim you have $42,000 outstanding in undergraduate loans. As you will be continuing as a full-time student, you will not be responsible for any payments until you graduate (or fail out! 🙂). Assuming an interest rate of 5%, this amount will grow to around $51,250 by the end of medical school. Upon graduation, this debt will start to cost you around $250, pre-tax, a month.

- Let's assume you rack up $180,000 in expenses during your 4 years of medical school. The amount may be higher, may be lower, depends on what school you go to and what city you're in, right? But I'd suspect this is in the ballpark. At the end of your four years, the monthly payments required (assuming you pay this loan back over 40 years) is $928 a month in pre-tax dollars.

Now, you're probably thinking that sounds like a lot: $1,175 a month is quite a bit to a college kid making precisely bupkis per month. However, the critical things you need to remember here is a) you'll be pulling down around $120,000 minimum when you finally get out of residency and b) the interest is tax deductible.

A) While youparents may not have been very successful financially (or simply unwilling to part with their success), being in medicine has the advantage of significant financial stability. You don't necessarily need to worry that $10K is coming in the door every month, because there is a significant need for doctors into the foreseeable future. For all the long hours and endless schooling, you can at least expect an OK income with low volatility.

B) Keep in mind that the interest in student loans is deductible. Ask someone more familiar with taxes what this means if you don't understand it. Suffice to say that on your initial payments, when you're making the least, your after tax payments at the 35% tax bracket will only be $784 in real dollars. Trust me, it doesn't seem like it now, but it's a pittance. It works out to about 12% of your after tax salary. It works out to about 14% of your after tax salary in your first year (your income will hopefully rise logarithmically over time).

All of this is well and good, but what you should really consider is that this monthly nut you have to cover buys you much, MUCH more than a medical education. It buys you the freedom to pursue whatever residency, in whatever part of the country you want. It buys you the freedom to pick which job you want, in which part of the country, after finishing your residency. It buys you to decide if you even want to practice medicine. It buys you the choice of whether you want to get shot at or not. It buys you time with your loved ones. Some will argue that it buys you a better residency experience, with better training, case loads, acuity, equipment, and professional environment. It buys you the freedom to finish your residency without a 2-4 year interruption of treating sprained ankles and jock itch.

Being a doctor appears to be stressful and tiring enough without the constant worry that you're going to be shipped off to a faraway and dangerous land. The money is pretty inconsequential in the scheme of the compensation. The only calculus that you need to do is figure out if your desire to serve your country outweighs all of these other benefits to being a free man.

 

[West Side]

And if you wanted to be really, really unsophisticated about it, figure you're going to finish residency and make around $20k - $30K less than your civilian peers. So you can either pay for school now, or pay for it 4 years from now when you're sitting trying to make the best of earning less in Minot, North Dakota! 😀

 

[letigre]

Thanks for all your help. Like i said, it's tough for me to think that far into the future, because i'm poor NOW and would like to know NOW how i'm gonna pay for medical school. To the recruiters i'm like a little puppy dog right now...perfect...muahahahha.

Anyway thanks again. You're all right, I def. need to think about it more.

 

[PJDent]

You'll probably make too much money to claim the interest on your school loans. But the rest is probably correct.

"The amount of your student loan interest deduction will be phased out if your modified adjusted gross income is between $50,000 and $65,000 ($100,000 and $130,000 if you file a joint return). You will not be able to take a student loan interest deduction if your modified adjusted gross income is $65,000 or more ($130,000 or more if you file a joint return)."

 

[West Side]

You'll probably make too much money to claim the interest on your school loans. But the rest is probably correct.

"The amount of your student loan interest deduction will be phased out if your modified adjusted gross income is between $50,000 and $65,000 ($100,000 and $130,000 if you file a joint return). You will not be able to take a student loan interest deduction if your modified adjusted gross income is $65,000 or more ($130,000 or more if you file a joint return)."

My mistake. I never took loans throughout my schooling, so I was using generalities picked up from peers. I'm sure there are some minor inaccuracies throughout my post, but by and large, you get the point: as a proportion of you income, we're talking a relatively small amount.

Look at it this way: the link detailing new tax law relative to loan repayment shows an average debt load of $130,000 for a medical student graduate. The market here is clearly saying that the military option is not sufficiently compensated given the risk and what you have to give up/compromise.

Also, hey, if you have a lay-about for a spouse, you probably can take the tax deduction! 🙂

 

[BomberDoc]

I was in your shoes once. I chose unwisely to do AF HPSP rather than face the prospect of being a quarter of a million dollars in debt when I got out of school. I had a little more undergrad debt than you, and grew up in a very debt averse middle class household. $50k+ was ridiculous for college. After that, taking on med school loans was very daunting. Mom and Dad were not going to help even if they could. So.....

I did it for the money. I joined for a few bucks upfront and sold my soul. I thought I was so clever until around 3rd year when you finally see the writing on the wall. I have regretted it every single day since. The regret is for much more than just the monetary loss I'm realizing. However, since that is the main focus of your question, here are a few thoughts.

My classmates from med school are finishing their residencies/fellowships. I'm finishing my 4 year payback as a Flight Surgeon. For the last 4 years, my salary has been about 2x what my resident/fellow classmates have been earning. I'm ahead in the very short term... Now I'm going back to residency and will be making 40-45k per year for the next 4 years while my classmates are becoming attendings/partners and making 500k+ per year. At those salaries, it is pretty easy to manage the student loan payments. One of my classmates (a radiologist) just got a starting job offer of 650k. Now who's ahead? Practice a few more years of delayed gratification and it WILL pay off. After seriously thinking about it, I would stay in my current job if the pay was 500k per year with frequent steep increases to match the civilian market. Since that is unlikely to happen, I'm punching out as soon as possible.

 

[a1qwerty55]

Okay, so say that I'm not doing it just for the money, and that I would feel a certain satisfaction treating military personnel and their families....would it be worth it then? Or is the experience THAT BAD where you don't even feel like you're doing any good?

In your shoes I would join knowing that I am generally debt averse, and I take pride in my service. Life is so much more than income, and lifestyle. You have to ultimately look back on your life and ask what you accomplished for your Country and someone other than yourself. Being a doctor and a officer should be a calling. This seems to be lost on many current med students.

 

[Galo]

In your shoes I would join knowing that I am generally debt averse, and I take pride in my service. Life is so much more than income, and lifestyle. You have to ultimately look back on your life and ask what you accomplished for your Country and someone other than yourself. Being a doctor and a officer should be a calling. This seems to be lost on many current med students.

Part of this is correct. It should be a calling to be a military officer. If that is what you want, then by all means join. If its your calling to be a physician, steer clear. You will be treated and expected to be a military officer first and foremost.

As a physician, you can always accomplish something for your country and for humanity depending on how you choose to practice, and what you can give of yourself. You could even go into the military after you've gotten good training, and know what you're getting into.

At this point in time, its just too much of a gamble, and you have everything to loose.

 

[USAFdoc]

You have to ultimately look back on your life and ask what you accomplished for your Country and someone other than yourself. Being a doctor and a officer should be a calling. This seems to be lost on many current med students.

The admirable qualities listed above are what drew me to choosing a career in milmed. After reaching and arriving at that destination I was disappointed to find that those qualities were for the most part absent from todays USAF Primary Care; replaced by a business/bucks/metrics/promotions culture that provided daily examples of poor patient care, and admin friendly fire directed at the staff.

The admirable qualities listed above can be just as much a part of your civilian practice, and as a civilian doctor, you will have much more to say about having your practice live up to those qualities and NOT BE JUST MORE LIP SERVICE like that coming from many of those in Milmed admin.👎

 

[West Side]

In your shoes I would join knowing that I am generally debt averse, and I take pride in my service. Life is so much more than income, and lifestyle. You have to ultimately look back on your life and ask what you accomplished for your Country and someone other than yourself. Being a doctor and a officer should be a calling. This seems to be lost on many current med students.

Uh, while I agree with the sentiment, I come to the exact opposite conclusion. This person sounds debt averse, full stop. Doing it for the money? This is the EXACT type of person that would be miserable in the military, wouldn't it?

The idea that you can only serve your country or others in the military is a rank fallacy.

 

[a1qwerty55]

Uh, while I agree with the sentiment, I come to the exact opposite conclusion. This person sounds debt averse, full stop. Doing it for the money? This is the EXACT type of person that would be miserable in the military, wouldn't it?

The idea that you can only serve your country or others in the military is a rank fallacy.

Just pointing out that being a military officer is an honorable profession, being a military physician is perhaps even more so. Yes you could join the Indian Heath Service but I don't gather from the tone of most of the carping on this board that they would like that either. Because.. you give up freedom and money and after all, everything is all about the individual right? What a selfish generation.

 

[West Side]

Just pointing out that being a military officer is an honorable profession, being a military physician is perhaps even more so. Yes you could join the Indian Heath Service but I don't gather from the tone of most of the carping on this board that they would like that either. Because.. you give up freedom and money and after all, everything is all about the individual right? What a selfish generation.

That's the straw man argument of straw man arguments.

No-one disputes that administering medical aid in the mlitary is an honest job, and important. I don't think it's any more or less important than giving care to another citizen of this country. Nor is being a doctor more or less important or admirable than another profession.

The greatest service to your country is achieving your highest and best use doing something you love. It is my suspicion that the percentage of people doing that in the military is somewhere south of 100%. The rub is you have no freedom to recalibrate and achieve that professional nirvana; you're stuck serving the "needs of the military", whether it's for the greater good or not.

So you can get down off your cross. We think you're a swell guy for your sacrifice. You know, the thing about martyrs is that they usually don't have to tell other people they're...well, martyrs.

However, in relation to the original poster's comments, can you agree that simply being averse to debt is no reason to join the military? He's just rephrasing the words, "I'm doing it for the money." If you can't even concede that, then you're an intransigent cheerleader for the military, and shouldn't be taken much more seriously than the recruiter in your neighborhood mall parking lot.

 

[DiveMD]

The admirable qualities listed above are what drew me to choosing a career in milmed. After reaching and arriving at that destination I was disappointed to find that those qualities were for the most part absent from todays USAF Primary Care; replaced by a business/bucks/metrics/promotions culture that provided daily examples of poor patient care, and admin friendly fire directed at the staff.

The admirable qualities listed above can be just as much a part of your civilian practice, and as a civilian doctor, you will have much more to say about having your practice live up to those qualities and NOT BE JUST MORE LIP SERVICE like that coming from many of those in Milmed admin.👎

Great point!

 

[West Side]

Of course you think that being a doctor is just as important as being a lawyer and janitor. After all, you are neither in medicine nor the military.

Thank you for telling us how many people in milmed are achieving their potential, and how little freedom they have. How many years of service do you have again?

Entertain whatever delusions of grandeur you want. If you want to ascribe some elitist self-importance to your place in the world because you chose to study for an extra four years, be my guest, see where it gets you. JD's protect the civil liberties you...uh, don't get to enjoy in the military! Meanwhile, janitors provide an important service that frees others to focus on what they do best. I'm neither lawyer nor janitor nor doctor, but I can see the value of achieving one's capacity.

And if you're miserable in your job (as many here are, which is a FACT), you're not reaching your potential, spin it any way you want. That you can't remedy that misery only exacerbates the problem.

Remind me, how long have you had a real job for? Being a PGY-2's toady doesn't count, small fry.

 

[colbgw02]

West Side, why do you post here? An honest question.

 

[BomberDoc]

In your shoes I would join

= recruiter. Do not trust this person or any like him.

 

[West Side]

West Side, why do you post here? An honest question.

And you'll get an honest answer: while my personal situation came to a resolution, to say I didn't go through the the military experience, in a manner of speaking, is to be overtly restrictive in the definition. For every one of you, barring a catastrophic personality disorder (Tired, I'm looking at you here! 😉), there is/will be a spouse and family that will have to weather your choices at some point.

Suffice to say, if I can spare someone from going through the misery I did for a few months (let alone years of misery that it could have been!), I think I'll have done a service.

That said, I'm not so closed-minded that I don't think there are absolutely people suited to the military. My brush with the military has been illuminating, partly because I've seen two main demographics of HPSP victi...I mean, applicants:

- Those that thought they had no other resource for the dough
- Those coming from military families

And I think those that have had a taste of HPSP life can admit that neither is an overtly good reasons, inandof itself, to join the service. Capiche?

So if I can help someone of little means and experience (like our original poster here, who wasn't raised by someone with any financial literacy, and understandably fears the unknown) comprehends better what their options are, I think it's my good deed for the day. Given the numerous PM's I receive and try to answer as faithfully as possible, I think the feedback corroborates my instinct.

Of course, those that stand to benefit from more meat for the grinder really can't stand it. They've made their bed, and I can respect their perspective. It irks me, however, that ignorance of the facts is a main arrow in their quiver.

 

[LADoc00]

I am applying to medical school atm the am also in the process of applying to the AFHPSP.

I don't want this to be another pros/cons thread, I just need very honest opinions.

Like: all other things aside....was it worth $200,000 in loans?

I feel like recruiters have caught me in a very vulnerable position, I am 42,000 in debt from undergrad and have financially UNSTABLE parents that haven't been able to help EVER. I don't blame them or anything, but at this point a free medical education sounds pretty good. However, I realize that there are significant downsides to the program, including some crappy standards of practice in military hospitals (a recurrent theme in other threads).

Please discuss, I value your help immensely!!

Im going to give you an honest mathematically driven assessment that takes into account lost opportunity cost, cost of education, decreasing doctor salaries and the threat of increased interests rates/credit crunch in the future: Medical school or ANY school is nowhere near worth 200K. Nothing. Not Harvard med, absolutely nothing.

There are TONS of other good jobs with far less risk than getting the MD, trust me.

 

[Mirror Form]

And you'll get an honest answer: while my personal situation came to a resolution, to say I didn't go through the the military experience, in a manner of speaking, is to be overtly restrictive in the definition. For every one of you, barring a catastrophic personality disorder (Tired, I'm looking at you here! 😉), there is/will be a spouse and family that will have to weather your choices at some point.

Suffice to say, if I can spare someone from going through the misery I did for a few months (let alone years of misery that it could have been!), I think I'll have done a service.

That said, I'm not so closed-minded that I don't think there are absolutely people suited to the military. My brush with the military has been illuminating, partly because I've seen two main demographics of HPSP victi...I mean, applicants:

- Those that thought they had no other resource for the dough
- Those coming from military families

And I think those that have had a taste of HPSP life can admit that neither is an overtly good reasons, inandof itself, to join the service. Capiche?

So if I can help someone of little means and experience (like our original poster here, who wasn't raised by someone with any financial literacy, and understandably fears the unknown) comprehends better what their options are, I think it's my good deed for the day. Given the numerous PM's I receive and try to answer as faithfully as possible, I think the feedback corroborates my instinct.

Of course, those that stand to benefit from more meat for the grinder really can't stand it. They've made their bed, and I can respect their perspective. It irks me, however, that ignorance of the facts is a main arrow in their quiver.

Do you really think the OP came here to get advice from someone w/ zero military experience AND zero medical experience? The space you waste on this board detracts from the informative posts made by those people who actually know what they're talking about.

Please, go join a civilian lawyer forum and post there.

 

[colbgw02]

And you'll get an honest answer: while my personal situation came to a resolution, to say I didn't go through the the military experience, in a manner of speaking, is to be overtly restrictive in the definition. For every one of you, barring a catastrophic personality disorder (Tired, I'm looking at you here! 😉), there is/will be a spouse and family that will have to weather your choices at some point.

Suffice to say, if I can spare someone from going through the misery I did for a few months (let alone years of misery that it could have been!), I think I'll have done a service.

That said, I'm not so closed-minded that I don't think there are absolutely people suited to the military. My brush with the military has been illuminating, partly because I've seen two main demographics of HPSP victi...I mean, applicants:

- Those that thought they had no other resource for the dough
- Those coming from military families

And I think those that have had a taste of HPSP life can admit that neither is an overtly good reasons, inandof itself, to join the service. Capiche?

So if I can help someone of little means and experience (like our original poster here, who wasn't raised by someone with any financial literacy, and understandably fears the unknown) comprehends better what their options are, I think it's my good deed for the day. Given the numerous PM's I receive and try to answer as faithfully as possible, I think the feedback corroborates my instinct.

Of course, those that stand to benefit from more meat for the grinder really can't stand it. They've made their bed, and I can respect their perspective. It irks me, however, that ignorance of the facts is a main arrow in their quiver.

I can certainly understand the effects a military career has on one's family. I've been on both sides of this issue, as I am keenly aware of how my father's military career affected me and how mine is affecting my family.

Respectfully, I would suggest caution when comparing what you went through to "the military experience". I say this because when I (and perhaps others as well) think of the "military experience", I think of the many spouses and families who repeatedly uproot over the course of decades, sacrifice careers, and stay awake at night during deployments. Even the BS that we put up with in military medicine pales in comparison to what the folks in the proverbial trenches and their families go through.

I try to keep in mind that I'm not exactly on the front lines, defending freedom against fascism, communism, and everything in between. But, I am proud that I wear the uniform and that I help to take care of others that do. After all, most people don't go to medical school, most people don't choose to serve in the military, and even fewer choose to do both. So, it is mildly offensive when you say that we have delusions of grandeur for thinking that our profession is important. Because, frankly, I do think it is important. That doesn't make me better than anyone else, but I'm not going to minimize it either.

Anyway, I'm not trying to get into a pissing match here. I'm no apologist for military medicine, and if you care to check my posts, I regularly give my honest opinion to those who ask, which mostly leads people away from military medicine. I guess I just get a little frustrated when people who can't possibly have the perspective that we have appear to pass judgment on our profession.

 

[hidradenitis]

My $0.02:

I did AFHPSP, recently out of residency, and overall having a good time. Happy at this point that I did it. I think I went into the whole thing 'eyes wide open' and basically accepted the whole enchilada. (I am not from a military family but knew some folks who had done FAP.)

A few points:

1. Pay in is on par for the average civilian FP income, once you factor in nontaxable income, health insurance premiums, and malpractice. (For those re-upping, it actually exceeds it once you factor in 4-year MISP.) (Keep in mind this is vs the average FP income, to compare apples to apples with military income, which is controlled only by rank and time in service - hard to do any more than that, unless you moonlight.)

2. Pay is nowhere near civilian specialty pay, even factoring for a lower debt load for HPSPers.

3. Your have limited to no control over where you go or what you do.

4. There are some cool and some crappy military specific things that folks on the outside don't get to/have to do. Again, see #3.

5. Good things - scope of care (surprisingly broad; this is not the norm), working with overall pretty good folks and patients.

6. Bad things - see #3; usually manifests itself in silly admin stuff.

I'm pretty happy as of now; I attribute this to realistic expectations going in. A recruiter (or a civilian lawyer) cannot give you this. My best advice would be to talk to 'in the flesh' attendings who have done the program and are well into repayment (or are out) for perspective. Talk to as many as you can, and be realistic with their feedback - once you're in, you're in! 😉

 

[West Side]

I can certainly understand the effects a military career has on one's family. I've been on both sides of this issue, as I am keenly aware of how my father's military career affected me and how mine is affecting my family.

Respectfully, I would suggest caution when comparing what you went through to "the military experience". I say this because when I (and perhaps others as well) think of the "military experience", I think of the many spouses and families who repeatedly uproot over the course of decades, sacrifice careers, and stay awake at night during deployments. Even the BS that we put up with in military medicine pales in comparison to what the folks in the proverbial trenches and their families go through.

I try to keep in mind that I'm not exactly on the front lines, defending freedom against fascism, communism, and everything in between. But, I am proud that I wear the uniform and that I help to take care of others that do. After all, most people don't go to medical school, most people don't choose to serve in the military, and even fewer choose to do both. So, it is mildly offensive when you say that we have delusions of grandeur for thinking that our profession is important. Because, frankly, I do think it is important. That doesn't make me better than anyone else, but I'm not going to minimize it either.

Anyway, I'm not trying to get into a pissing match here. I'm no apologist for military medicine, and if you care to check my posts, I regularly give my honest opinion to those who ask, which mostly leads people away from military medicine. I guess I just get a little frustrated when people who can't possibly have the perspective that we have appear to pass judgment on our profession.

Thanks for the very rational response.

To be clear, I had but a taste of what military life would be like for a spouse, and I hated even that small sample. So I can sympathize with families uprooted, families seperated, children brought up by one spouse, sometimes permanently. It sucks. I don't, however, feel like those non-medical issues are well represented in this forum when prospectives come asking "is this for me?" Mostly, the discussion centers on training, pay, case loads, the military match...as well it should, but these lifestyle choices are frequently far off for a 21 year old pre-med graduate. Getting them to think about things now, to plan for the eventuality that they're going to have to move twice in 7 years (minimum), and the effect that will have on those around them is part of why I'm here. And whatever you want to think about my fitness to talk about HPSP, I'm at least eminently qualified to talk about that.

I think I'd also encourage you to re-read what I wrote in terms of "delusions of grandeur": I noted that doctors are (of course) important. I started by saying they're important, just that they don't occupy the exalted place in society that many young doctors think they do. And the response I got confirmed my point: posts deriding lawyers and janitors. While both require less education, I'm simply saying the meaning and satisfaction you get out of a job is the only metric of how important the job is.

Respectfully, I'm no-one's enemy on here. I don't think less of anyone who's a doctor or in the military, and I've said as much many a time. Christ, I'm planning to marry one, it doesn't make sense that I'd hold a grudge! The message is simply that the usual concept of serving one's country and fellow citizens is often mindlessly narrowly defined. Doing something you love, in a way and environment you love, is the best way to serve flag and fellow man. For some people, that will be in the military. For some, it will not. I'm not sure why there's the acrimony in the saying of that.

P.S.: I still think it's hilarious people think I'm an attorney.

 

[a1qwerty55]

To be clear, I had but a taste of what military life would be like for a spouse, and I hated even that small sample.

Gag me! This is where I shed a tear for the hardship you endured.

I wish there were a draft just so you entitled left coasters would actually have some experience rather than uninformed opinions about the military. What was your experience.. hearing 3 year medical student "war" stories from the girlfriend, maybe driving on post or going to the Commissary, or perhaps a lunch at the hospital dinning facility? Ridiculous..

I'm at least eminently qualified to talk about that.

.

I think I'd also encourage you to re-read what I wrote in terms of "delusions of grandeur": I noted that doctors are (of course) important.

How magnanimous... I find docs to be exceedingly important when a member of your family is lets say.... dying?

I started by saying they're important, just that they don't occupy the exalted place in society that many young doctors think they do.

I guess you have to define exalted. Fortunately patients and families often have a more generous view of us. As you have never cared for a patient for years, built a relationship with them and their family and then been at their bedside at the end of their life you really don't have a clue about the doctor patient relationship or, the calling that it is to be a physician. I certainly don't do it because I have a God complex or need to be "exalted". Your simplicity and immaturity speak volumes about you.

And the response I got confirmed my point: posts deriding lawyers and janitors. While both require less education, I'm simply saying the meaning and satisfaction you get out of a job is the only metric of how important the job is.

Are you drunk or something... so the importance of the job is only how much "meaning and satisfaction" that you get. Wow that's a bit self-centered... Am I surprised?

How about how your job affects others, society, the world community, your family others???

Doing something you love, in a way and environment you love, is the best way to serve

You should write greeting cards with this material.

Please stop posting, you don't have anything to add over that which might be gleaned from asking the average Joe on the street. Your posts are full of assumptions, feelings, with little if any fact or personal experience (I'm sorry you cannot comment on being in the military, being a healthcare provider, or being a spouse of military for that matter. Your self appointed post as Chief Financial Advisor is also not deserved. Please move on to maybe a 9/11 conspiracy site or perhaps a blog on global warming. The are anxiously awaiting your post.

 

[a1qwerty55]

Part of this is correct. It should be a calling to be a military officer. If that is what you want, then by all means join. If its your calling to be a physician, steer clear. You will be treated and expected to be a military officer first and foremost.

Baloney - Doctors are in no way held to anywhere the same standards that regular officers are held to. Every single Commander I have had like maybe 5 now expected one thing, good care and tangible accomplishments on my part to enhance care. Sorry your experience was so draconian.

At this point in time, its just too much of a gamble, and you have everything to loose.

Anyone think this is hyperbole....?everything to lose, nothing to gain?

 

[Galo]

Its funny to read these posts now. Once again, the green army cheerleader sets to lambast and pick apart what he disagrees with. You should really look at what you write.

Once again, an example of what your boss could be like, and yet another reason to stay away from mil med. Also, its incredibly stupid and convenient at this time to say that you are held to a different standard as other officers. You are not. You will be expected to be an officer first, and to fall in line and follow all legal orders. Meaning you may not have a choice of what medical specialty you go into, where you live, and who you work with. I have exagerated that you have everything to loose, but you have alot to loose. You loose your ability to choose many of the aspects that are vital to a medical career.

If all this back and forth, (as it usually ends with the cheerleader), gets confusing, I always give the advice to call up physicians who are serving now, as many as you can. Many will tell you just how they feel, and allow you to make a much more informed decision than we made when we went into this with much different expectations and promises.

Best of luck

 

[a1qwerty55]

Its funny to read these posts now. Once again, the green army cheerleader sets to lambast and pick apart what he disagrees with.

Oh, I don't find your posts funny at all. If find them full of hyperbolic statements and half truths. They are misleading and ovely pessimistic. But as you post them, I will continue to point out the innaccuracies and fallacies of your posts. Someone has to.

I do enjoy watching you get spun up when your posts and those who fall into your Chicken Little camp of MilMed sucks are dissected in the same manner that you have done to countless other posts which take exception to your world view.

 

[letigre]

Okay one question: Galo, when you say you may or may not get your choice in specialty....is this often the case? I was under the impression that you must apply to mil res. but at the same time if you do not match in your specialty you can be defered to a civilian residency program. Which is it? Can they really tell you where to go?

 

[hidradenitis]

The military has a set amount of docs needed in the different specialties; they are able to train their own via military residency programs but often will need to utilize civilian residency programs to obtain their quotas. They won't force you to train in a specialty you don't want, but neither will they train you in a specialty they don't need - if you don't match in a military program of your choosing nor do you get deferred into a civilian program, you will have to complete your time as a GMO (do a year of internship, do your time, then apply again when you get out.)

This is the kind of thing that you need to be clear on - this was not a problem for me as I was interested in primary care (which the military needs a lot of), but had I wanted to do something real specialized my plans may have had to be deferred until after the payback period was done.

Again, find someone who has actually gone through the program and get some face-face time with them. You can only get a certain amount from sites like these.

 

[sethco]

Okay one question: Galo, when you say you may or may not get your choice in specialty....is this often the case? I was under the impression that you must apply to mil res. but at the same time if you do not match in your specialty you can be defered to a civilian residency program. Which is it? Can they really tell you where to go?

This is the most common misconception from medical students. Let's say you want to do Anesthesia (just an example) and you are an Air Force HPSP participant. Let's say there are 30+ applicants for 8 military spots and 8 civilain defered spots. What happens to the rest of the applicants? Do you think the military is going to say that even though there is an abundence of Anesthesiologists, we will still let the ones that did not match have their residency anyway? It is true, that you must apply to military residencies, along with civilian. However, if you are not chosen for either you will become a GMO/DMO/FS for a 2 year minimum before being allowed to reapply for residency. If your recruiter does not tell you this is a possibility, then ask him about it. I'm sure they will lie about it or say they are "phasing out the GMO", but this is a load of crap. As long as military hospitals are closing, expect residencies to be cut. It is no secret that the military (especially the Air Force) is moving towards operational medicine and there is a big need for GMO type individuals. BTW, I actually like my job currently (most days at least), but I still can't wait to get out and start my residency.

Oh yeah...I forgot. I still would not resign, even for a billion dollars. WTF am I going to do with a billion dollars? I am not in this profession to make exorbonant amounts of money. I just want to live comfortably, have a little for retirement, pay for my kids education, and above all...Enjoy my job. Life is too short to be chasing money.

 

[NavyFP]

Oh yeah...I forgot. I still would not resign, even for a billion dollars. WTF am I going to do with a billion dollars? I am not in this profession to make exorbonant amounts of money. I just want to live comfortably, have a little for retirement, pay for my kids education, and above all...Enjoy my job. Life is too short to be chasing money.

A BILLION...........in a heartbeat. God knows I love being in the Navy (most days), but a billion. Gone. I'd figure out something to do with all that money.

 

[Galo]

Okay one question: Galo, when you say you may or may not get your choice in specialty....is this often the case? I was under the impression that you must apply to mil res. but at the same time if you do not match in your specialty you can be defered to a civilian residency program. Which is it? Can they really tell you where to go?

I don't think I can answer it any better. There is a chance, (I think the last AF graduation class had a significant % of people go to Flight Surgeon slots, like 33%???. Some one has to have the correct # so army cheerleader does not have a fit. But there is a very real chance that for whatever reason, your wants, versus the needs of the military, may not match at that time, and you will have no choice other than being a GMO or flight surgeon.

Even though the # I'm looking for may be high for this year, its impossible to say what it will be when you are ready to match. The point is that its a real possibility that should be completely understood before you go in.

How's that for hyperbole and half truth!?

Army cheerleader may tell you the army has much less of a chance of that happening, but I would check everything out for myself. Like I said, call up active duty docs and ask away. Let us know what you find out.

 

[Galo]

Oh, I don't find your posts funny at all. If find them full of hyperbolic statements and half truths. They are misleading and ovely pessimistic. But as you post them, I will continue to point out the innaccuracies and fallacies of your posts. Someone has to.

I do enjoy watching you get spun up when your posts and those who fall into your Chicken Little camp of MilMed sucks are dissected in the same manner that you have done to countless other posts which take exception to your world view.

Hey Cheerleader, just to keep the fires going about half truths, since when are military officers not held to the same standards?? Is this not one of your main tenents that officership is the end all and be all. You certainly seem to spout that when I say being a doctor can sometimes get in the way of what some officers see as officership. So which is it this time, which is convenient for you? Everytime you post you seem more and more like the ignorant asses that are ruining military medicine. GO AWAY!

 

[colbgw02]

I can't speak for the Navy or Air Force, but in the Army I would say that there is definitely a difference. I mean, sure, officially we all take the same oath, wear the same uniform, and are subjected to the same rules. But practically, there is no doubt in my mind that medical corps officers get away with things that line officers would never be able to. That's why in the hospital we refer to the rest of the Army as the "real Army". It's not hard to imagine situations where being a good officer and a good physician might conflict, but I don't think it's fair to say that medical corps officers are held to the same standards as, let's say, the infantry.

 

[Galo]

I can't speak for the Navy or Air Force, but in the Army I would say that there is definitely a difference. I mean, sure, officially we all take the same oath, wear the same uniform, and are subjected to the same rules. But practically, there is no doubt in my mind that medical corps officers get away with things that line officers would never be able to. That's why in the hospital we refer to the rest of the Army as the "real Army". It's not hard to imagine situations where being a good officer and a good physician might conflict, but I don't think it's fair to say that medical corps officers are held to the same standards as, let's say, the infantry.

Could you give me an example of where a medical officer would not be held to the same standards as a line officer? Be it mandatory exercise, multiple meetings, computer training, weigh ins, deployment stuff? We were pretty much expected to have it all. Now I can see where in other places it may not be as grade schoolish as where I was, but that was my experience.

 

[flightdoc165]

I have to agree with the above. While some people (usually nurse corps officers who are of higher rank than you but have not touched a patient for years) may try to tell you that you are an officer first, you are always a doctor first, and my COs (in the operational world, at least) have always seemed to respect this. I feel that I can "get away" with things that the other line officers might not be able to--not that I'm doing anything bad, I just know my military bearing is not as rigid--but I don't think that a doctor's necessarily should be, as you want your people to be comfortable talking to you. Nonetheless, my advice to the OP (and I don't assert that it's good advice, but it's mine) is: I don't know if it's possible to know at the beginning of medical school whether joining the military is the right thing for you, as there's too much you don't know about it, and can't learn just by reading postings and such. You kind of have to ask yourself if you are the kind of person who can go with the flow for the next couple of years and do some things you don't want to do (or at least initially think you don't want to do) in turn for what could possible be a very rewarding (or perhaps miserable) experience. If you are the type of person that has your life mapped out and want it to go in one specific direction, then don't join the military. It is definately true that you should not do it (just) for the money, as numerous postings above have demonstrated. 4 (or more) years of your life spent unhappily is not worth $200,000. But you may enjoy those 4 years, at least some of them. For me, I think I would do it again (although sometimes I'm not sure--specifically on days when AHLTA goes down 30 times in 2 hours but we still have to use it)--I was the person who went straight through from high school to college to medical school, because it was the path of least resistance. I knew I wanted to be a doctor, but I also wanted to try something different, and I never knew how to do it, so I just kept going to school, because that was easy. So I joined the Navy, yes for the money, but also because I wanted to have some "adventure" in my 20s (yes I know that sounds cheesy). I was also someone who liked all areas of medicine, did not have a clear calling in med school, and picked the specialty I thought I wanted to go into without thinking through all the lifestyle ramifications (I didn't think lifestyle was so important in med school as I didn't really have a life then 🙂 Anyways, I went out and became a flight surgeon, had a good bit of fun, met a lot of great people, found a specialty that I think is my true calling after having the time to learn what I really like in medicine and am soon getting out and going back into residency. So, yes, most of my friends from med school are either attendings or in fellowship now, while I'm just about to start, but I know that if I had gone straight into residency from med school, I would be in the wrong specialty and probably generally unhappy. Plus, I have a pretty good financial base now (no debt and I was able to save a good bit during the past several years--going to Iraq certainly helps with that) so I'm not worried about taking a super high paying job once I'm done with residency. There are things I hate about the military (namely way too much administrative BS that prevents effective and efficient patient care) that made the decision to get out easy, and if someone offered me a $200,000 bonus to stay in right now for 4 more years I'd have to turn it down as it's time to move on, but I think I would do it over again.

 

[a1qwerty55]

The military has a set amount of docs needed in the different specialties; they are able to train their own via military residency programs but often will need to utilize civilian residency programs to obtain their quotas. They won't force you to train in a specialty you don't want, but neither will they train you in a specialty they don't need - if you don't match in a military program of your choosing nor do you get deferred into a civilian program, you will have to complete your time as a GMO (do a year of internship, do your time, then apply again when you get out.)

This is the kind of thing that you need to be clear on - this was not a problem for me as I was interested in primary care (which the military needs a lot of), but had I wanted to do something real specialized my plans may have had to be deferred until after the payback period was done.

Again, find someone who has actually gone through the program and get some face-face time with them. You can only get a certain amount from sites like these.

A very accurate and succinct post. Thanks.

 

[a1qwerty55]

Could you give me an example of where a medical officer would not be held to the same standards as a line officer? Be it mandatory exercise, multiple meetings, computer training, weigh ins, deployment stuff? We were pretty much expected to have it all. Now I can see where in other places it may not be as grade schoolish as where I was, but that was my experience.

Where do I start. Having never been deployed I guess I can understand how little insight you have into the differences between the line and the medical communities.

Well, Find me a line guy who can get promoted and not hassled too much and be: fat, never in uniform, barely passing the PT test, totally behind on force protection stuff, shots, eye exams etc, have no idea what end of an M-4 the bullet comes out of, never submit an OER support form, be gay, have hair over regulation, have a nice big Freddy Mercury stash, oversleep, drink with enlisted, go on leave without a leave form, moonlight......

While not advocating any of the above except maybe moonlighting, there are great docs who succeed despite having many of the above traits/weaknesses because in the big picture, if you can crack a chest, perform a cerebellar resection, run a code, do Lasik surgery, whatever.. you are pretty freaking useful to the military and so long as you aren't doing illegal stuff, on average, the smaller stuff will just slide on by.

Bottom line is that the door kickers expect us to be boobs when it comes the the military stuff anyway and most of them could care less so long as we are clinically great. My Infantry soldiers and Commander could have cared less if I wore a pink tutu so long as I was on my game when they were injured. The biggest prick doctors, and usually most clinically inept ones were the ones trying to be Army - badge collecting, going to military schools while their medical skills atrophied. The Infantry usually saw through these guys and preferred a doctor to a Infantry poser.

Unfortunately it seems Galo G. you were surrounded by these types.

So, do you still believe we are held to the same standard?

Signed: The Cheerleader

 

[a1qwerty55]

Hey Cheerleader, just to keep the fires going about half truths, since when are military officers not held to the same standards?? Is this not one of your main tenents that officership is the end all and be all. You certainly seem to spout that when I say being a doctor can sometimes get in the way of what some officers see as officership. So which is it this time, which is convenient for you? Everytime you post you seem more and more like the ignorant asses that are ruining military medicine. GO AWAY!

Another work of literary genius from our UCMJ'd former USAF surgeon, who I believe... is a locums tenens general surgeon, and milmed basher 3 or 4 years after his seperation?

 

[gastrodoc]

one point: There are 1 year hardship GMO tours, at least in the Army, which end up being 10 months or so once all the inprocessing/ outprocessing/ train up/ leave is done. Korea and Sianni (sp) are 2 for sure, I think there may be a couple of others. Korea in particular is a big draw for folks coming out of IM residency trying to get competitive fellowships.

 

[sethco]

Well, Find me a line guy who can get promoted and not hassled too much and be: fat, never in uniform, barely passing the PT test, totally behind on force protection stuff, shots, eye exams etc, have no idea what end of an M-4 the bullet comes out of, never submit an OER support form, be gay, have hair over regulation, have a nice big Freddy Mercury stash, oversleep, drink with enlisted, go on leave without a leave form, moonlight......

Congrats. You just accurately described the AWACS population

 

[Galo]

Another work of literary genius from our UCMJ'd former USAF surgeon, who I believe... is a locums tenens general surgeon, and milmed basher 3 or 4 years after his seperation?

Just to correct you cheerleader, I am in a permanent practice making more money than you are ever likely to see. Also UCMJ'd is crap as I was honorably discharged. Once again you sink to personal insults that are simply not true. You being a mentally sick cheerleader for the army however is true.

You dare use the word hyperbole when I say something, then you print crap like this:


Well, Find me a line guy who can get promoted and not hassled too much and be: fat, never in uniform, barely passing the PT test, totally behind on force protection stuff, shots, eye exams etc, have no idea what end of an M-4 the bullet comes out of, never submit an OER support form, be gay, have hair over regulation, have a nice big Freddy Mercury stash, oversleep, drink with enlisted, go on leave without a leave form, moonlight....


What army are you in? Not even the most lenient of officers let this crap go by in the USAF. Maybe the army has lowered their standards to keep the crap like you and what you print, but NONE of that would be acceptable in the USAF medical corps. You want to paint a picture that always puts you in the limelight as a true advocate of mil med, and want to lead people to think that nothing could be easier, and you exemplify that by writting such nonsence. I think by this time the OP or anybody else reading this can tell you are so far off its not even worth reading your trash unless its for a good laugh. You prove once again how one person in your chain can ruin a military experience for everyone. The people you work with must fear you and hate you.

By the way, Freddie Mercury was awesome. What now you don't like Queen because he was gay?

Go and cheer somewhere else!!

 

[a1qwerty55]

What army are you in? Not even the most lenient of officers let this crap go by in the USAF.

By the way, Freddie Mercury was awesome. What now you don't like Queen because he was gay?

Go and cheer somewhere else!!

My point again is that the application of rules can vary dramatically and that doctors are different. You love to expouse how doctors are complicit in torture, and present all these conflicts between medical ethics and military orders. Every single military ethics class has always stressed that you only are required to follow a legal order. While not explicitly stated, it follows that if and when a medically unethical order is given, we should respectfully decline. To do otherwise really reflects on the individuals lack of intestinal fortitude.

As I recall from your posts, you did receive if I am correct at least a Letter or Reprimand - while not UCMJ (you are correct, I probably was off base), it still isn't something that happens to many upstanding officers. This has to be taken in to account when you analyze your credibility. The tone of your posts tell a lot about you, none of it good.

As far as the Freddie Merc comment, it was to point out the truly massive size of his stash and how is was well outside of military regs. Of course you took it to be some kind of biggoted statement. Did this hit a little to close to home?

 

[a1qwerty55]

Congrats. You just accurately described the AWACS population

Probably. The point is that like it or not the application of the standards change based on your need to the military, and your environment.

 

[DiveMD]

Well, Find me a line guy who can get promoted and not hassled too much and be: fat, never in uniform, barely passing the PT test, totally behind on force protection stuff, shots, eye exams etc, have no idea what end of an M-4 the bullet comes out of, never submit an OER support form, be gay, have hair over regulation, have a nice big Freddy Mercury stash, oversleep, drink with enlisted, go on leave without a leave form, moonlight......

Why the homophobia? Are you insecure? Using the gay thing to demean the medical class clearly speaks of your true values. Let me guess; are you a Pat Robertson kind of Christian? BTW, I am 100% sure any Navy DMO, including me, can kick your a$$ any day on a PT test…