Considering Medical School - First Steps?

[304367]

Hello, All

I am at somewhat of a crossroads in my career. I was working as a patent lawyer until I was laid off. Given the rather poor state of the legal job market combined with my general dissatisfaction with practicing law, I'm considering a career in medicine. There are many aspects of the medical school admissions process that I need to bring myself up to speed on so I know what steps to take if I choose to apply to medical school.

I have a B.S. in Electrical Engineering (2004) with a weighted average GPA from two colleges (I was a transfer student) of about 3.4. My science GPA based on my chemistry and physics courses is probably about a 3.5 or 3.6. I'm aware that I still need to take one year of biology and one year of organic chemistry.

First, can anyone recommend a good book / resources that is informative as to the admissions process and how to assemble a competitive application?

Is it too late to consider applying during the 2010 cycle? I have obviously yet to take the MCAT, and also have to take biology and organic chemistry. I have virtually no volunteer, shadow, clinical experience, etc. (My ambitions were previously directed towards a career in patent law.)

Lastly, if there is anyone with a similar background as mine who has gone through this process, I'd be especially interested in hearing about your experience.

Thanks for any advice.

- JG

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[DitchDoc73]

One of the easiest things to do is to search here on SDN for the info that you are looking for. Most of it has been rehashed many times over. But the basics of what you need:

Pre-reqs (classes): General Chemistry I, General Chemistry II, Organic Chemistry I, Organic Chemistry II, Biology I, Biology II, Physics I, Physics II, and a completed Bachelor's Degree (at minimum)

You must also take the MCAT. The best place to find info on the MCAT is directly from the source www.aamc.org/mcat.

You will also need LORs (usually 2 from science professor and 1 from liberal arts professor). Some schools also may require a LOR from a physician that you have shadowed. Look into the differences between Osteopathic and Allopathic medicine (DO and MD), and I would recommend applying to both types of programs.

Get ready to complete your primary application by checking out the AMCAS http://www.aamc.org/students/amcas/ (Allopathic Med Schools) and the AACOMAS https://aacomas.aacom.org/ (Osteopathic Med Schools) websites.

It is too late in the cycle to apply for 2010 if you do not have everything ready (i.e. MCAT). Your best bet is to do your research and get everything ready to apply for the 2011 cycle in June 2010. This is a basic list, but it should keep you busy for a while and get you started!

Best of luck!

 

[anavistas]

I don't think it's late considering you just need to take Orgo and Bio, you can take Bio I and Orgo I this spring, then take Bio II and Orgo II in the summer.
You can also start volunteering in the weekends for about 6 hours, which will be about 100 hours till June, and you can also find a couple of doctors for shadowing. You have to start studying for MCAT too, and you have to cover Orgo II and Bio II yourself(if you want to take MCAT befor summer I), it is really up to you to decide if you can do them on your own. You might be at a slight disadvantage not having taken those courses befor your MCAT. One other plan is to take your MCAT after the first summer(around July) when you have the chance to have your BIO II/Orgo II covered.
Based on your background you wouldn't have any problem on Physical, maybe even not on Verbal so you can concentrate on you Biological. It's not ideal but doable.

 

[DitchDoc73]

I don't think it's late considering you just need to take Orgo and Bio, you can take Bio I and Orgo I this spring, then take Bio II and Orgo II in the summer.
You can also start volunteering in the weekends for about 6 hours, which will be about 100 hours till June, and you can also find a couple of doctors for shadowing. You have to start studying for MCAT too, and you have to cover Orgo II and Bio II yourself(if you want to take MCAT befor summer I), it is really up to you to decide if you can do them on your own. You might be at a slight disadvantage not having taken those courses befor your MCAT. One other plan is to take your MCAT after the first summer(around July) when you have the chance to have your BIO II/Orgo II covered.
Based on your background you wouldn't have any problem on Physical, maybe even not on Verbal so you can concentrate on you Biological. It's not ideal but doable.

I am not saying its late based on the classes you need to take, it IS late for the MCAT. Most schools will not take a 2010 MCAT for consideration into the 2010 entering classes. And the schools that do take the 2010 MCAT, will usually only accept the score if it is a retake.

If I personally were in the OP's shoes I would not apply this current cycle, and I would wait for the 2011 admissions cycle (which starts this June). This would allow me to improve my application to make sure I am the best candidate I could be...

 

[mzblue]

I agree with most of the posts above. it's a little late to apply for this cycle. Yes, you've taken these classes in the past but how much do you remember? i tutored chemistry up until summer of 2005 and when i took chem last summer, it took a good while for some things to come back to me. I'd forgotten a lot.
Plus, bio is a lot of info. Ochem isn't bad if chemistry is your thing. But i think it's best to prep well for the MCAT so you can take it once and make the best possible score. Plus, applying next cycle will give you time to volunteer, shadow and what not. Can i apply this cycle? yes, i should be done with all prereqs plus i can study for the mcat this spring. Am i applying this cycle? No, i'd rather sit it out and be a 110% ready.

I say give yourself a year to finish the prereqs and study for the mcat as well as prepare other aspects of your application.
Good luck.

 

[mzblue]

I agree with most of the posts above. it's a little late to apply for this cycle. Yes, you've taken these classes in the past but how much do you remember? i tutored chemistry up until summer of 2005 and when i took chem last summer, it took a good while for some things to come back to me. I'd forgotten a lot.
Plus, bio is a lot of info. Ochem isn't bad if chemistry is your thing. But i think it's best to prep well for the MCAT so you can take it once and make the best possible score. Plus, applying next cycle will give you time to volunteer, shadow and what not. Can i apply this cycle? yes, i should be done with all prereqs plus i can study for the mcat this spring. Am i applying this cycle? No, i'd rather sit it out and be a 110% ready.

I say give yourself a year to finish the prereqs and study for the mcat as well as prepare other aspects of your application.
Good luck.

 

[304367]

Just to clarify, when I asked about applying during the 2010 cycle, I meant applying in 2010 for admission in 2011. I haven't fully informed myself on the timing of applications, but it's my understanding that I need to do volunteer work, shadow a physician, and gather solid recommendation letters to have a competitive application. Should I even consider taking a year of Organic Chemistry and Biology and study and take the MCAT by, say, the end of the summer in addition to all of the other things I mentioned above? It seems like that I would be rushing things, even if it's possible. I'd rather not apply unless I feel that I'm putting my best out there. Applying in 2011 for admission in 2012 seems far off, but I feel that that may be my only choice to put together the best application.

Thoughts?

 

[anavistas]

I didn't mean this current cycle of course. I thought it was obvious OP meant 2011.

 

[304367]

I'm a bit hesitant to rush this process. Is there any way to have a preliminary gauge of how competitive my GPA is? Is there some sort of GPA calculator I can use to average my two college GPAs? How does my law school GPA factor into the process?

As for recommendations, I've certainly not kept in touch with my college professors, since I graduated in 2004. How many recommendations are typically required, and are there any stipulations on who may write them? May I submit an employer recommendation?

Thanks!

 

[7starmantis]

I'm a bit hesitant to rush this process. Is there any way to have a preliminary gauge of how competitive my GPA is? Is there some sort of GPA calculator I can use to average my two college GPAs? How does my law school GPA factor into the process?

As for recommendations, I've certainly not kept in touch with my college professors, since I graduated in 2004. How many recommendations are typically required, and are there any stipulations on who may write them? May I submit an employer recommendation?

Thanks!

You can look up some GPA calculators for individual schools or look at AAMC data about average GPA's for applicant's and matriculated students. Yours is about average I believe. I believe every class you have taken will be factored in your GPA, so that includes your law school courses. I'm in Texas so we do things a little different than everyone else, but I would think you might be rushed for matriculation in 2011. You could do it, but I agree with other posters, you want to plan on taking the MCAT once, be prepared and nail it. So prepare and go for it if your ready.

Most non-trads are in the same boat when it comes to letters of Recommendation (LOR) I didn't have any type of committee letter and just one professor letter. I did have a research director letter, but others were doctors I had shadowed or known for most my life. I think 3-5 letters is about right? Texas only allows 3 I believe? I think letters from someone who knows you well enough to comment on your character would be great. Mine ranged from physicians, professor, research director, close personal friend (and physician), even a politician (only to one school not all of them). I think the letters can be quite varied and still be a great applicant.

Edit: Here is a link to AAMC data that another poster gave me on a different thread.
Applicants and Matriculants Data

 

[Econ2MD]

I'm a bit hesitant to rush this process. Is there any way to have a preliminary gauge of how competitive my GPA is? Is there some sort of GPA calculator I can use to average my two college GPAs? How does my law school GPA factor into the process?

As for recommendations, I've certainly not kept in touch with my college professors, since I graduated in 2004. How many recommendations are typically required, and are there any stipulations on who may write them? May I submit an employer recommendation?

Thanks!

Use the search forums and helpful links in the stickies at the top of forum pages. There really is a lot of useful info to answer your questions.

I'd say generally you are at the border of what is a competitive GPA.

Schools will differ in their rec letter requirements. Some are very specific about who writes the letters. Finishing your prerequisites should allow you forge new academic relationships. Reconnect with your past advisor, maybe?

Your law school GPA will not figure into the undergrad GPA.

Your biggest glaring weakness is your lack of volunteer work and clinical exposure. Get on that ASAP.

"Given the rather poor state of the legal job market combined with my general dissatisfaction with practicing law, I'm considering a career in medicine." You'd better find a better reason for the "why medicine" question than this. You need to find what draws you to medicine and not Wall Street, or dentistry, or something else.

Do the research. Find out what classes are necessary and their prerequisites. When are they offered? Are you ready to quit your job and pursue this full time? You need to have time to volunteer, shadow, prep for MCAT, study for courses, etc. If you're committed to this pursuit, make a realistic plan and execute. It's a marathon, not a sprint. I appreciate that more everyday.

 

[DitchDoc73]

I didn't mean this current cycle of course. I thought it was obvious OP meant 2011.

I just went by what the OP put in his post. It wouldn't be the first time somebody thought they could get it all done at the last minute! You should be able to complete everything for the 2011 admissions cycle. Best of luck!

 

[anavistas]

I just went by what the OP put in his post. It wouldn't be the first time somebody thought they could get it all done at the last minute! You should be able to complete everything for the 2011 admissions cycle. Best of luck!

lol I was there not long ago!

It can be done and I'd say it's worth trying as you nearly have everything. I think one year is one year and it's important not to waste it (especially if you are suffering from "ageophobia".) Pre_reqs are not like EE courses.

 

[7starmantis]

Your law school GPA will not figure into the undergrad GPA.

While you are correct about undergrad GPA, AMCAS reports grades for each year including post grad. All of your letter grades will count towards your total GPA. That will in fact include your law school grades.

AMCAS 2010 Instructions (page 7)

 

[304367]

If they consider my law school GPA, that could pose problems. My law school GPA is only a 3.1, although it's from a top 20 school.

 

[Econ2MD]

While you are correct about undergrad GPA, AMCAS reports grades for each year including post grad. All of your letter grades will count towards your total GPA. That will in fact include your law school grades.

AMCAS 2010 Instructions (page 7)

My understanding is that applicants with postgraduate work are compared to others using their undergraduate GPA. I don't think graduate work factors in much into the equation, which is why most don't recommend a master's degree to make up for a low undergrad GPA. Now if you failed out of grad school, that would be a different story...

You postbacc coursework is also reported separately, but is included in your undergrad GPA.

I don't think a 3.1 law GPA will be a hindrance.

 

[7starmantis]

My understanding is that applicants with postgraduate work are compared to others using their undergraduate GPA. I don't think graduate work factors in much into the equation, which is why most don't recommend a master's degree to make up for a low undergrad GPA. Now if you failed out of grad school, that would be a different story...

You postbacc coursework is also reported separately, but is included in your undergrad GPA.

I don't think a 3.1 law GPA will be a hindrance.

Yeah, a 3.1 law GPA would not be a hindrance at all I wouldn't think, its low but not terribly low. As for the undergrad GPA, your right, the law GPA wouldn't affect it. However you will have an undergrad GPA and a Grad GPA. Whether the school looks more at the undergrad is probably school specific. I'm not saying the law GPA will hurt you at all, but it will be reported.

Read the pdf that I linked to earlier, page seven talks about GPA calculations and what is and is not used.

AMCAS reports to the medical schools a GPA for each academic status (HS, FR, SO, JR., SR, PB, GR) subdivided into courses listed as "BCPM" or "All Other" in the BCPM/AO Column.

I would probably agree that schools place a bit more emphasis on undergrad GPA than Grad but I'm sure it varies from school to school. If you think about it, your applying to medical school, why would your GPA in grad school not be a factor? To the OP, I'm not trying to say you shouldn't apply or anything like that, I think you have a great chance and as I can attest to, numbers are certainly not everything, but I think you should be educated on the entire process and what is or is not going to be transmitted to the schools.

 

[NTF]

Before you invest too much into applying I'd shadow some physicians and hang with patients in a variety of settings. Take your time.

 

[avatarftw]

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[yollom]

I would recommend a couple of things. I'm a non trad myself and will be 29 when I matriculate next year. I have been accepted at 4 MD schools and am about 99% sure what school I will be attending.

My undergrad degree is a BS in systems engineering and for a "postbacc" I took ORGO 1 and 2 with lab, BIO 1, 2 and a Neuroscience/Neuroanatomy class, a genetics course (waste of time, easy A), a survey Biochem course which was also easy, oh and Chem 2 (as a review for Ochem over the summer). I obviously had the gen chem and physics, and math (all the way up to differential equations) from undergrad. I graduated undergrad with a 3.4 and a 3.3 science GPA (be careful calculating this, because the AMCAS requirements are pretty specific - I managed to sneak in a couple of stats heavy econ courses into my calculations but not everyone will be able to). I got a 4.0 in all of my informal post bacc science classes which brought my overall GPA up to a 3.55/3.4ish.

Anyway, I spent a year and a half taking post bacc classes while working full time, then spent the final 6 months preparing for the MCAT - which I did pretty well on. However, my advice is to NOT take the MCAT until you have completed at least the Bio series and had plenty of time to devote to the VR section (Examkrackers is the way to go - finish this book and you will be good). While biochem is not a pre-req at most schools, it is important for the MCAT in my opinion - as the fusion of OChem and Bio is what the BS section is all about. As an engineer, I found the PS section pretty easy - but work practice problems to make sure.

All in all, I would say it takes 2 years to do it right while working full time(which I assume you are), unless you have more time than I did and can go full time, then a year is plenty. If you can, start right now, finish the Ochem and Bio series before Jan 11, take Biochem Spring 11, then the MCAT in May. The MCAT really is key for nontrad applicants, and it is worth it to take these courses beforehand.

Anyway, just my .02 - and it worked for me.

 

[LawNonTrad]

Yeah, a 3.1 law GPA would not be a hindrance at all I wouldn't think, its low but not terribly low. As for the undergrad GPA, your right, the law GPA wouldn't affect it. However you will have an undergrad GPA and a Grad GPA. Whether the school looks more at the undergrad is probably school specific. I'm not saying the law GPA will hurt you at all, but it will be reported.

Read the pdf that I linked to earlier, page seven talks about GPA calculations and what is and is not used.


I would probably agree that schools place a bit more emphasis on undergrad GPA than Grad but I'm sure it varies from school to school. If you think about it, your applying to medical school, why would your GPA in grad school not be a factor? To the OP, I'm not trying to say you shouldn't apply or anything like that, I think you have a great chance and as I can attest to, numbers are certainly not everything, but I think you should be educated on the entire process and what is or is not going to be transmitted to the schools.

<-- About to finish law school and I'm pretty sure that the law school GPA won't hurt him at all. If he had a 4.0 they'd be super impressed and if he had a 2.5 they'd wonder what's up. Anything above 3.0 is not going to raise any eyebrows in a negative way.

The reason why his grad school gpa won't be a factor is because he went to law school, not to get a master's in biology or something even remotely related to a medical school curriculum. Also, most people don't consider law school to be graduate school. AMCAS might, but law schools, along with business schools (MBA) are generally considered to be professional schools. My law school doesn't even calculate GPA. AMCAS will have a bunch of fun with that I suppose.

From everything I've read on here, it really isn't a school-specific question at all of what they look at. Most of them will probably glance at his law GPA, but all of them will consider the undergraduate GPA to be about 50 times more important.

 

[kia ora]

<-- About to finish law school and I'm pretty sure that the law school GPA won't hurt him at all. If he had a 4.0 they'd be super impressed and if he had a 2.5 they'd wonder what's up. Anything above 3.0 is not going to raise any eyebrows in a negative way.

The reason why his grad school gpa won't be a factor is because he went to law school, not to get a master's in biology or something even remotely related to a medical school curriculum. Also, most people don't consider law school to be graduate school. AMCAS might, but law schools, along with business schools (MBA) are generally considered to be professional schools. My law school doesn't even calculate GPA. AMCAS will have a bunch of fun with that I suppose.

From everything I've read on here, it really isn't a school-specific question at all of what they look at. Most of them will probably glance at his law GPA, but all of them will consider the undergraduate GPA to be about 50 times more important.

the law school gpa shouldn't be an issue (unless it's a 2.0 or something). my law school gpa was far from stellar and adcom peeps didn't seem to care about it in the med school app process (probably in part due to the fact that I went to law school a long time ago and had a successful career as a lawyer in between law school and the med school app process). I actually asked one admissions director (at a school I ultimately did not even apply to) if it (my eh law school gpa) would be an issue; he said absolutely not, as he recognized it was a top-tier school and knew it had a harsh grading curve (he said he knew this from conversations with the admissions director of the law school affiliated w/his institution). if a low gpa is more recent and is from a less well-known school, it might be more of a factor, but as law school is a completely different animal (in learning/content style, exam style and grading style) from undergraduate science classes and med school, it shouldn't prove to be much of a hindrance