Contact your representatives to cancel student debt

[Mass Effect]

So those people who chose worthless degrees. Why should we bail people out of mistakes of their own making?

I answered that already on page 1.

"A lot of these folks are first gen college students and/or folks who didn't have financially informed parents guiding them along the way. Who the hell gives an 18 year old a blank check to major in 18th Century Literature with no thought as to what that degree would do for them? A bank sure as hell wouldn't. But the government, in all its wisdom, decided that was a good idea and the universities were ready, happy and eager to cash in. These guys were set up to fail in what I can only describe as a Ponzi scheme. And now that they did, you can't just bankrupt a generation of students. I mean, you can but it's bad for society if you do. If the government can bail out corporations, they can sure as hell bail out these students and in doing so, they need to mandate no more loans of more than a certain figure (and since I'm not an economist, I don't know what that number is and no I don't need to know what that number is to have an opinion). Schools will either adapt by lowering tuition costs or they will close their doors because there are just not enough privately funded 18 year olds going to Podunkville College for the Greater Good. And in the meantime, we can still fund first gen college students with a much smaller loan and adequate financial and career counseling."

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[ThoracicGuy]

I answered that already on page 1.

"A lot of these folks are first gen college students and/or folks who didn't have financially informed parents guiding them along the way. Who the hell gives an 18 year old a blank check to major in 18th Century Literature with no thought as to what that degree would do for them? A bank sure as hell wouldn't. But the government, in all its wisdom, decided that was a good idea and the universities were ready, happy and eager to cash in. These guys were set up to fail in what I can only describe as a Ponzi scheme. And now that they did, you can't just bankrupt a generation of students. I mean, you can but it's bad for society if you do. If the government can bail out corporations, they can sure as hell bail out these students and in doing so, they need to mandate no more loans of more than a certain figure (and since I'm not an economist, I don't know what that number is and no I don't need to know what that number is to have an opinion). Schools will either adapt by lowering tuition costs or they will close their doors because there are just not enough privately funded 18 year olds going to Podunkville College for the Greater Good. And in the meantime, we can still fund first gen college students with a much smaller loan and adequate financial and career counseling."

But they still chose to study a useless major. When do people have to take responsibility for themselves? Yes, the government has a bunch of blame in this for giving out so much free money, but there needs to be personal responsibility here. If you just write off the debt, have those people really learned the consequences of their actions or will they believe they can do whatever they want and they'll get bailed out again?

Sorry, but I don't want my tax dollars being spent that way.

 

[Redpancreas]

Completely agree with @ThoracicGuy. There are tons of generalizations here already so I suppose can afford to bring up my n=1, albeit specific case. I admit, I'm biased. I chose to attend a local in-state MD school over several other higher ranked institutions for a significant price difference and scholarship. I also chose to aggressively start paying off my student loans the minute I got a residency stipend flowing in giving 60% of my net take home to my loans made possible by purchasing habits and my choice of living. I also received a significant, but not a majority contribution from my parents who have budgeted very well. The opportunity cost of those decisions are enormous.

Contrast this to acquaintances of mine who opted to go to private/DO schools, consistently paid higher rent prices in bigger cities, did not pay off loans in residency, let their student loans from undergrad accumulate, and if anything used student loan money disbursement to attempt to capitalize on the Bitcoin, Crypto, GME craze... I don't know about anyone's specific case here, but I know several in real life who have made some of the above decisions and are sitting on 300K-500K in debt. There are probably 1000s of cases just like that who'd be happy to say their hardship equated to NYC nurses in March 2020 as rationale for sweeping loan forgiveness. Some people try and fail to make a comparison to stocks and say that it's the fault of responsible people for investing their money in student loans as they didn't predict generalized student forgiveness to happen...yet the same ones making that argument still try to petition to try to get the government to intervene to pass extremely expensive legislation that will to benefit their own financial interests at not only the moral hazard of others who managed their money more responsibly, but the expense of the general US tax-paying population.

The argument of the government bailing out medical students with less financially informed parents alluded to above is laughable. One can't just say we bail out big banks so why not bail out medical students too. That's not how it works. There are people who suffer from gang violence just as a product of where they grew up yet they haven't been given handouts. The irony is that your solution perpetuates the inequity by giving money to those who don't even need it. I'd wager an estimate that the medical school applicant pool comes from an average household income of 80K+. Yes there are perhaps 1000s of exceptions to that (probably represented well on SDN given the wealth of free advice the site provides). Then consider this group after 3-8 years of stipend turn into top 1% earners in the US... This is not the population that we should be bailing out with broad-sweeping loan forgiveness.

Help out respiratory technicians many of whom went to school several years and are getting the same salary as someone now working at Target yet being discriminately exposed to COVID-19 as the nature of their job? Sure.

Benefits and retirement plans for nurses who suffered through NYC in 2020?
Sure.

Help out financially/socioeconomically disadvantaged students?
Partly addressed by the government and medical school, but sure.

Reduce the cost of medical school?
Sure.

Provide wide sweeping, loan forgiveness to a heterogeneous, but mostly financially well off population with the best salary prospects/job security in the nation on average regardless of who was put in any significant harm's way?
Keep dreaming.

 

[Mass Effect]

But they still chose to study a useless major. When do people have to take responsibility for themselves? Yes, the government has a bunch of blame in this for giving out so much free money, but there needs to be personal responsibility here. If you just write off the debt, have those people really learned the consequences of their actions or will they believe they can do whatever they want and they'll get bailed out again?

Sorry, but I don't want my tax dollars being spent that way.

As I said, I'm in favor of forgiveness only for low-income folks in exchange for service so it's not exactly free money. But we have to face the fact that the government really screwed some of the population here. And ya, they share blame, but there's a reason banks don't give 18 year olds a blank check with 7% interest to do whatever they want with. The system was broken and some of these folks were set up to fail.

 

[Mass Effect]

The argument of the government bailing out medical students with less financially informed parents alluded to above is laughable. One can't just say we bail out big banks so why not bail out medical students too. That's not how it works.

I mean, if you're going to call my idea laughable, can you please at least read it first? I didn't say they should bail out medical students.

There are people who suffer from gang violence just as a product of where they grew up yet they haven't been given handouts. The irony is that your solution perpetuates the inequity by giving money to those who don't even need it.

Once again, I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't twist my argument to make your point. I was not talking about med students for exactly the reason you are citing. Ironically, I was referring to people who are likely coming from the former, not the latter.

I'd wager an estimate that the medical school applicant pool comes from an average household income of 80K+. Yes there are perhaps 1000s of exceptions to that (probably represented well on SDN given the wealth of free advice the site provides). This is not the population that we should be bailing out with broad-sweeping loan forgiveness. Add the fact this population gets a paid comfortably in the six figures guaranteed in the near future, and the argument becomes even more ridiculous.

Yes I know, which is why I never said med students.

 

[Wordead]

So those people who chose worthless degrees. Why should we bail people out of mistakes of their own making?

I mean this is the basis of pretty much every social welfare program - including social security. Why do I have to pay taxes to support these old people who didnt the insight to save enough money to retire on? Why do I need to pay to fund the military if I don't agree with the use of funds? The CHIP/medicaid/medicare programs? People should just save and pay for their own healthcare, right? Farm subsidies for small farms? Public schools? I mean we should let the market forces deal with all that right?

It's a weird single point to be against if you're not against everything else. I mean if you're a libertarian then okay fine you're consistent but otherwise doesn't make sense. They're all serving a national goal of an educated, healthy populace which makes the nation better.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

I mean this is the basis of pretty much every social welfare program - including social security. Why do I have to pay taxes to support these old people who didnt the insight to save enough money to retire on? Why do I need to pay to fund the military if I don't agree with the use of funds? The CHIP/medicaid/medicare programs? People should just save and pay for their own healthcare, right? Farm subsidies for small farms? Public schools? I mean we should let the market forces deal with all that right?

It's a weird single point to be against if you're not against everything else. I mean if you're a libertarian then okay fine you're consistent but otherwise doesn't make sense. They're all serving a national goal of an educated, healthy populace which makes the nation better.

So someone who decides to do something like gender studies that has little utility in getting a paying job should be bailed out for making poor choices just because they wanted to study that degree? Should there be ANY penalty that these people have to pay to get bailed out? What's to stop future bad behavior, after all, the government will just bail them out again if they make more dumb choices. You have to draw a line somewhere and for me, that's having to do with something that is a conscious decision by that individual who promises to pay back the money.

Would you rather we live in a world of free college, free health care, free whatever? You and I are paying for that...

 

[Wordead]

So someone who decides to do something like gender studies that has little utility in getting a paying job should be bailed out for making poor choices just because they wanted to study that degree? Should there be ANY penalty that these people have to pay to get bailed out? What's to stop future bad behavior, after all, the government will just bail them out again if they make more dumb choices. You have to draw a line somewhere and for me, that's having to do with something that is a conscious decision by that individual who promises to pay back the money.

Would you rather we live in a world of free college, free health care, free whatever? You and I are paying for that...

I dont disagree that the stupid choices are stupid. But if you look at the outcome now you have a 25 year old with no marketable skills being a barista who will never pay that money back. By virtue of a stupid decision made at 18 years old (which is not really THAT stupid - they at least tried to get an education vs plenty of people I know in high school who just got high and did nothing but odd jobs) they are forever indebted?

I agree with your idea - yes there should be more personal responsibility in our society. But to enforce it mainly on the poor and middle class who attempted to get an education seems like not the population to go after first.

Also yes I know I pay a crazy amount of taxes as a W2 high earner and am not happy about it but at the same time I think there are other things my taxes pay that are way better targets of scorn - an extremely poorly bailout of "small" businesses like the PPP, lazy government workers, tax breaks for religious organizations and the wealthy, etc.

 

[Mass Effect]

So someone who decides to do something like gender studies that has little utility in getting a paying job should be bailed out for making poor choices just because they wanted to study that degree? Should there be ANY penalty that these people have to pay to get bailed out? What's to stop future bad behavior, after all, the government will just bail them out again if they make more dumb choices. You have to draw a line somewhere and for me, that's having to do with something that is a conscious decision by that individual who promises to pay back the money.

I don't think there's a single person who believes in loan forgivess on this forum who doesn't also believe in student loan reform. This was detailed on page 1 of this thread. The money needs to be capped, the degrees need to matter and the interest rate shouldn't be so high. That's what will stop future bad behavior. The government essentially did what no bank would ever do and it was very poorly thought out and stupid to be frank, but the people suffering for it are those who fell prey to it which is why banks would never do it.

 

[sunshinefl]

I think that reducing student loan interest rates keeps borrowers accountable for their loan decisions, while also making it more feasible to pay back the loans without ballooning compounding interest.

So instead of blanket loan forgiveness, can we just reduce student loan interest rates???

 

[Redpancreas]

I think that reducing student loan interest rates keeps borrowers accountable for their loan decisions, while also making it more feasible to pay back the loans without ballooning compounding interest.

So instead of blanket loan forgiveness, can we just reduce student loan interest rates???

You're responsible for half the downvotes on my SDN account. Regardless, hope residency's treating you well. No one is against that, but you're literally changing the subject of the literal title of this thread which is calling on Biden to forgive all student loans. No one forced any of us to go to medical school. We all decided we wanted and had the Y1, 2, 3, and 4 tuition levels handed out to us on interview day and we knew what we were getting into. I think there are 100s of things we should do before cancelling student loan debt. The first is the make medical education more practical/effective and shorter. The second is to reduce the costs of medical school partly accomplished by the former. Once we do that, we can address the loans/interest. Addressing the loans first would be rewarding the underlying problem.

In terms of interest, the federal government's interest rates (5-6%) are not exorbitantly high. Not that I have any power, but 3% would be reasonable too. Heck freeze interest payments for another year. Anything lower than that and you're not really putting any deterrent on borrowing.

 

[sunshinefl]

You're responsible for half the downvotes on my SDN account. Regardless, hope residency's treating you well. No one is against that, but you're literally changing the subject of the literal title of this thread which is calling on Biden to forgive all student loans. No one forced any of us to go to medical school. We all decided we wanted and had the Y1, 2, 3, and 4 tuition levels handed out to us on interview day and we knew what we were getting into. I think there are 100s of things we should do before cancelling student loan debt. The first is the make medical education more practical/effective and shorter. The second is to reduce the costs of medical school partly accomplished by the former. Once we do that, we can address the loans/interest. Addressing the loans first would be rewarding the underlying problem.

In terms of interest, the federal government's interest rates (5-6%) are not exorbitantly high. Not that I have any power, but 3% would be reasonable too. Heck freeze interest payments for another year. Anything lower than that and you're not really putting any deterrent on borrowing.

I am? Since I do have some equal affection towards you I did hesitate but I didn’t agree with a lot of the ideas in your post.

Anyway, lots of ideas have been discussed on this thread that weren’t directly “yes I will or no I won’t write to support blanket student loan forgiveness.”

I would find 3% to sound very reasonable. I’m not an expert in finance or economy though to know if that’s the “ideal” interest rate.

 

[Redpancreas]

I am? Since I do have some equal affection towards you I did hesitate but I didn’t agree with a lot of the ideas in your post.

Anyway, lots of ideas have been discussed on this thread that weren’t directly “yes I will or no I won’t write to support blanket student loan forgiveness.”

I would find 3% to sound very reasonable. I’m not an expert in finance or economy though to know if that’s the “ideal” interest rate.

Just a fun notation. Agreed.

 

[Giovanotto]

This argument never changes on SDN.

I don't really care that much if my debt is forgiven. It would be terrific if it is. But I also have a stash I've been building since residency in case PSLF implodes or I'm denied. If my PSLF app goes through in a few years, then I'll use that money for upgrades to my home so either way I'm good.

But that doesn't mean there isn't something to forgiveness especially for low income folks. Some of you arguing about the "dumb" majors people had likely don't even know the stats. These aren't the uber wealthy who took out hundreds of thousands of dollars in loans to major in Romantic Poetry at Yale. A lot of these folks are first gen college students and/or folks who didn't have financially informed parents guiding them along the way. Who the hell gives an 18 year old a blank check to major in 18th Century Literature with no thought as to what that degree would do for them? A bank sure as hell wouldn't. But the government, in all its wisdom, decided that was a good idea and the universities were ready, happy and eager to cash in. These guys were set up to fail in what I can only describe as a Ponzi scheme. And now that they did, you can't just bankrupt a generation of students. I mean, you can but it's bad for society if you do. If the government can bail out corporations, they can sure as hell bail out these students and in doing so, they need to mandate no more loans of more than a certain figure (and since I'm not an economist, I don't know what that number is and no I don't need to know what that number is to have an opinion). Schools will either adapt by lowering tuition costs or they will close their doors because there are just not enough privately funded 18 year olds going to Podunkville College for the Greater Good. And in the meantime, we can still fund first gen college students with a much smaller loan and adequate financial and career counseling.

And for all those saying we shouldn't forgive student debt because "what about the ones who've paid"? So what? They paid, they're out of debt. Good on them. That argument has about as much teeth as your Grandpa telling you that back in his day, he had to walk to school uphill both ways to justify anything he wants you to do. If we used that as a deterrent, then nothing would ever change because it would always be unfair to some other group of people or some other generation who didn't have it as good. That's a silly argument that belongs right up there with "but it's not fair".

Tl;dr: student debt should be forgiven for low income people at least, student loan industry needs a significant revamp and people who already paid off their loans, tough.

Bolded part: I never understood this argument either. Our entire society is based on a system of fairness, otherwise people wouldn't be "playing". Its idealistic, sure, but we should strive towards fairness as much as possible. For example, those that went the military route to pay for school. I think there's a solution here that involves rebates for those who have paid, and help for those struggling, meanwhile preventing this from continuing.

And I'm coming from a place of more comfort than many when it comes to student loans.

 

[yeasports]

Bolded part: I never understood this argument either. Our entire society is based on a system of fairness, otherwise people wouldn't be "playing". Its idealistic, sure, but we should strive towards fairness as much as possible. For example, those that went the military route to pay for school. I think there's a solution here that involves rebates for those who have paid, and help for those struggling, meanwhile preventing this from continuing.

And I'm coming from a place of more comfort than many when it comes to student loans.

What type of rebates?
By help do you mean my money paying their debt?
just clarifying

 

[Mass Effect]

Bolded part: I never understood this argument either. Our entire society is based on a system of fairness, otherwise people wouldn't be "playing". Its idealistic, sure, but we should strive towards fairness as much as possible. For example, those that went the military route to pay for school. I think there's a solution here that involves rebates for those who have paid, and help for those struggling, meanwhile preventing this from continuing.

And I'm coming from a place of more comfort than many when it comes to student loans.

But is life really about fairness in the sense of equal treatment? I don't think so. When my generation took Step 1, we got a score. When students take it now, they get pass/fail. Ask us about the stress level differences. When the previous generation did residency, they practically lived at the hospital (that's why residents are called residents). These days, programs are put on probation for exceeding duty hours. Some want med school reduced, but what about those who went through all 4 years? When the previous generation was in clerkship, it would be nothing to have a surgeon throw a scalpel at you. Now that surgeon would be fired. People who went to med school in 2000 didn't get to do PSLF. Now there's PSLF.

If we never changed things due to a goal of optimal fairness to those who came before us, we would never evolve.

I can buy most other arguments against loan forgiveness, but not this one.

 

[xffan624]

But is life really about fairness in the sense of equal treatment? I don't think so. When my generation took Step 1, we got a score. When students take it now, they get pass/fail. Ask us about the stress level differences. When the previous generation did residency, they practically lived at the hospital (that's why residents are called residents). These days, programs are put on probation for exceeding duty hours. Some want med school reduced, but what about those who went through all 4 years? When the previous generation was in clerkship, it would be nothing to have a surgeon throw a scalpel at you. Now that surgeon would be fired. People who went to med school in 2000 didn't get to do PSLF. Now there's PSLF.

If we never changed things due to a goal of optimal fairness to those who came before us, we would never evolve.

I can buy most other arguments against loan forgiveness, but not this one.

Don't forget us sorry folks in that 15+ year window that had to take Step 2 CS.... I want my $1350 dollars back plus the hotel and gas cost.

 

[yeasports]

Don't forget us sorry folks in that 15+ year window that had to take Step 2 CS.... I want my $1350 dollars back plus the hotel and gas cost.

lol so much yes. I took mine in ATL and while lunch was good (bbq) the workers looked at me like I was crazy when I asked if there was any unsweetened tea. I did not know that was sacrilegious in ATL and I'm from the south.

If the gov offered me money for my loans I would be ashamed to take it. I wish others felt that way.

Please someone explain why full forgiveness is needed? As of now if you spent 500k on a general studies degree in one of these: 20 Most Ridiculous College Courses You Won't Believe Are Real . Please tell me why income driven repayment for 20 years is too hard to handle. If your income is low payments maybe 1 dollar a month. Why do you need more help that this?

 

[Giovanotto]

Don't forget us sorry folks in that 15+ year window that had to take Step 2 CS.... I want my $1350 dollars back plus the hotel and gas cost.

There are degrees to this. Nobody is comparing these smaller changes. I took the CS (PE) and I am happy others don't have to. But there's a clear and non-trivial difference between getting 40-200k forgiven vs. having paid that amount of money, it's life altering.

 

[NITRAS]

Bolded part: I never understood this argument either. Our entire society is based on a system of fairness, otherwise people wouldn't be "playing". Its idealistic, sure, but we should strive towards fairness as much as possible. For example, those that went the military route to pay for school. I think there's a solution here that involves rebates for those who have paid, and help for those struggling, meanwhile preventing this from continuing.

And I'm coming from a place of more comfort than many when it comes to student loans.

I would argue that, at its core, our society laws are moral understanding of right and wrong. Not “fairness”.

 

[Giovanotto]

I would argue that, at its core, our society laws are moral understanding of right and wrong. Not “fairness”.

I'd also argue that we're saying the same thing. You can't have fairness without some basic level of agreement about whats right vs. wrong. And just because people have suffered injustices in the past, doesn't mean we should continue them over some desire to "progress". That's how you end up with resentful generations that then end up screwing over their youth.

I am pro cancelling student debt, but it has to be done in a way that does not disparage those who already paid. Medical school costing >250k is fairly new, so it's not like im talking about paying out grandpa joe.

 

[Redpancreas]

But is life really about fairness in the sense of equal treatment? I don't think so. When my generation took Step 1, we got a score. When students take it now, they get pass/fail. Ask us about the stress level differences. When the previous generation did residency, they practically lived at the hospital (that's why residents are called residents). These days, programs are put on probation for exceeding duty hours. Some want med school reduced, but what about those who went through all 4 years? When the previous generation was in clerkship, it would be nothing to have a surgeon throw a scalpel at you. Now that surgeon would be fired. People who went to med school in 2000 didn't get to do PSLF. Now there's PSLF.

If we never changed things due to a goal of optimal fairness to those who came before us, we would never evolve.

I can buy most other arguments against loan forgiveness, but not this one.

I think your argument is invalid because your examples are all false equivalence to broad student loan forgiveness. All the things you mention are things where you compare past to present. Things always change with time for betterment (i.e. for the sake of progress) and we can't afford to spend money in order to preserve fairness. Broad student loan forgiveness is not that. It will unfairly benefit some in the present directly at the moral hazard and expense of some others in the present. If we suddenly, for example, decided to pay to make medical school free for all moving forward starting this year, I'd wonder if that was the best use of money but that would be fine. What's not fine (in my opinion) is telling everyone these are the rules, and then years later when people are living with the consequences of how they reacted to those rules, suddenly change the rules (for that same set of people) to indiscriminately benefit those who hadn't made any contribution to those rules (regardless of reason) at moral hazard of those who committed to those rules AND the American taxpayers who will have to pay a not insignificant amount to subsidize this...and for what, so future 6-figure annual salary earners (who at the very least are earning the equivalent of the US median household income) can avoid paying a one time, 6-figure fee they signed up to pay? I fail to see how that would stimulate the economy in any way. If anything, it's regressive policy. I'd be OK paying something for someone who's finished medical school and doesn't match and wants to leave medicine and needs $ to ease the financial burden to make another career possible. The same goes for other less-higher earning fields who do a lot of work and have incurred a lot of penalties/life hazards from doing their job (like RTs and RNs in NYC in March 2020).

 

[Lem0nz]

That's not really fair. I think most of us here are advocating for loan forgiveness for a segment of the population with something in return as discussed on page 1 AND for student loan reform. I think the blanket "no forgiveness for anyone" posters are being short-sighted frankly. And not everyone's job or career is compatible with a non-profit that meets PSLF's criteria. This is especially true for those who graduated with useless degrees and are working wherever they get hired. Some may be working at the local library or city hall or school, but others are doing telemarketing or working at an insurance company or at Amazon or driving an Uber. That's why I said low income. These folks are shut out of PSLF because they're not working at non-profits and some of them aren't able to get a non-profit job. I wouldn't object to a version of PSLF that allows them to give 2 years of service like Americorps in order to get forgiveness.

On that note, I'll also point out that it's a very, very recent change that so many people applying to PSLF are having their loans forgiven which is one reason so many people chose not to enter PSLF in the first place. It took PSLF years to get its act together and it's a fairly new "successful" avenue for forgiveness.

I maintain blanket loan forgiveness is ridiculous and many of the docs here have pointed to excellent reasons why.

Honestly it is not ok for low earners either. They knew the risks and either accepted them, or they ignored them. There’s literal mini classes on how much your loan is going to cost that FAFSA makes you click through to get approved. If you just mindlessly click and don’t read that’s the borrowers fault. Hard stop.

A legitimate and good argument could be made for student loan *interest* forgiveness for all borrowers, and for income gated interest so that loans do not continue to grow beyond a person’s means to pay them. It’s still not perfect and the person who took such a loan deserves a share of the blame there, but it’s not totally unreasonable to not punish the stupidity or a bad job market (or both) for their entire life with a loan who’s payments may increase faster than someone can pay them.

 

[Mass Effect]

What's not fine (in my opinion) is telling everyone these are the rules, and then years later when people are living with the consequences of how they reacted to those rules, suddenly change the rules (for that same set of people) to indiscriminately benefit those who hadn't made any contribution to those rules (regardless of reason) at moral hazard of those who committed to those rules AND the American taxpayers who will have to pay a not insignificant amount to subsidize this...

How is this different from Class of 2007 being eligible for PSLF while Class of 2006 not? Before you answer, I'm not asking how PSLF is different from broad forgiveness. I'm asking how would this be different from someone telling Class of 2006 they're not eligible for loan forgiveness of any kind while people one year behind them can have loans they took out in 2007+ forgiven after 10 years of nonprofit work or 20 years of regular work?

and for what, so future 6-figure annual salary earners (who at the very least are earning the equivalent of the US median household income) can avoid paying a one time, 6-figure fee they signed up to pay?

I want to say once again that I am not preaching for 6 figure earners to be forgiven.

I fail to see how that would stimulate the economy in any way. If anything, it's regressive policy.

I mean, tax experts disagree with you. That was one reason for the pause in student loan repayments.

The same goes for other less-higher earning fields who do a lot of work and have incurred a lot of penalties/life hazards from doing their job (like RTs and RNs in NYC in March 2020).

These kinds of people are exactly who I'm talking about and not for life hazards either. There are CNAs, waiters, Walmart greeters, sales clerks, janitors who have student loan debt.

 

[deleted1100659]

If the gov offered me money for my loans I would be ashamed to take it. I wish others felt that way.

I feel more ashamed that I spend so much each year in taxes to the government, without much positive results. Also ashamed that our government offers loans at interest rates double the rate for a car or mortgage, knowing that tuition prices are six figures, unsubsidized, with daily compounding interest. Add a few more percent on the interest and it may be hard to tell the difference between them and a loan shark.

If they dont forgive my loans im completely ok with that; but at least set the rates to 0% for some time, for people to catch up, and then maybe do a variable rate that caps at 2-3% percent. 6-8% interest rate that compounds, is absolutely absurd when the debt is going to be a large amount.

 

[yeasports]

I feel more ashamed that I spend so much each year in taxes to the government, without much positive results. Also ashamed that our government offers loans at interest rates double the rate for a car or mortgage, knowing that tuition prices are six figures, unsubsidized, with daily compounding interest. Add a few more percent on the interest and it may be hard to tell the difference between them and a loan shark.

If they dont forgive my loans im completely ok with that; but at least set the rates to 0% for some time, for people to catch up, and then maybe do a variable rate that caps at 2-3% percent. 6-8% interest rate that compounds, is absolutely absurd when the debt is going to be a large amount.

1. ashamed means you are sorry for your own actions. like promising to pay a loan and then skipping out. Or promising to pay for a meal and skipping out etc.
2. Yes, don't go to a loan shark they will most likely have the means to make you pay and most likely will not except income based repayment.
3. Where does it end? If I take on the responsibility of a loan to buy a house, boat, gamble, cosmetic surgery, why should I not have to pay it back? The difference between those loans and education loans are income based repayment. What is unfair about that?

read if you want:
Bank: You don't want to pay back your loan?
Dr. Loan: no
Bank: did we not put in writing the terms?
Dr. Loan: you did
Bank: did you take the money and use it?
Dr. Loan: yes but I don't want to pay
Bank: Ok how about income driven repayments?
Dr. Loan: no I shouldn't have to pay just because I took the money and had a chance to benefit.
Bank: but in your case, you did benefit
Dr. Loan: I understand but should not have to pay
Bank: then who will pay your debt?
Dr. Loan: How about everyone else?

Dr. Loan should be ashamed in my opinion.

 

[deleted1100659]

1. ashamed means you are sorry for your own actions. like promising to pay a loan and then skipping out. Or promising to pay for a meal and skipping out etc.
2. Yes, don't go to a loan shark they will most likely have the means to make you pay and most likely will not except income based repayment.
3. Where does it end? If I take on the responsibility of a loan to buy a house, boat, gamble, cosmetic surgery, why should I not have to pay it back? The difference between those loans and education loans are income based repayment. What is unfair about that?

read if you want:
Bank: You don't want to pay back your loan?
Dr. Loan: no
Bank: did we not put in writing the terms?
Dr. Loan: you did
Bank: did you take the money and use it?
Dr. Loan: yes but I don't want to pay
Bank: Ok how about income driven repayments?
Dr. Loan: no I shouldn't have to pay just because I took the money and had a chance to benefit.
Bank: but in your case, you did benefit
Dr. Loan: I understand but should not have to pay
Bank: then who will pay your debt?
Dr. Loan: How about everyone else?

Dr. Loan should be ashamed in my opinion.

Comparing a 3% loan on a car that costs around 30k to a 7-8% loan for 300k is apples and oranges. Income based repayment is hardly a solution if it never leads to the loan being paid off until you qualify for loan forgiveness in 25 years, or you somehow get PLSF (which used to be, that was a total crapshoot)

you ignored everything I said about the interest rate which was the whole point of my post. When educational facilities are allowed to drive up tuition costs, young people are pushed the narrative that college is the ticket to a future, and student loan interest rates are double mortgage rates, what do you think happens? There are a lot of people out there, who had limited guidance (no one taught them anything about finances) and hope was dangled in front of their face, so they signed it thinking education/hard work was the ticket to success but ended up with more debt than income.

Again, i never said to forgive all student loans. What I said, was the rates are broken, and the current system is broken. Anyone who denies that has their head buried in the sand.

 

[yeasports]

Comparing a 3% loan on a car that costs around 30k to a 7-8% loan for 300k is apples and oranges. Income based repayment is hardly a solution if it never leads to the loan being paid off until you qualify for loan forgiveness in 25 years, or you somehow get PLSF (which used to be, that was a total crapshoot)

you ignored everything I said about the interest rate which was the whole point of my post. When educational facilities are allowed to drive up tuition costs, young people are pushed the narrative that college is the ticket to a future, and student loan interest rates are double mortgage rates, what do you think happens? There are a lot of people out there, who had limited guidance (no one taught them anything about finances) and hope was dangled in front of their face, so they signed it thinking education/hard work was the ticket to success but ended up with more debt than income.

Again, i never said to forgive all student loans. What I said, was the rates are broken, and the current system is broken. Anyone who denies that has their head buried in the sand.

1. comparing interest rates and amount of different loans is quite literally comparing apples to apples.
2. what is wrong with it being paid off in 25 years using income based repayments? that is the definition of a solution.
3. Did you not know the interest rate when you signed the loan to repay?

If your answer is I just want free money, ok bro I get ya.

 

[Mass Effect]

1. comparing interest rates and amount of different loans is quite literally comparing apples to apples.

No it isn't. The argument for forgiveness is the predatory "ponzi scheme" that is student loans. The reason they've earned this reputation and why this is even on the table is because of the insane principle amounts that's then subject to compound interest at an insane rate. Comparing it to car loans and home mortgages illustrates just how crooked the system is.

 

[Giovanotto]

No it isn't. The argument for forgiveness is the predatory "ponzi scheme" that is student loans. The reason they've earned this reputation and why this is even on the table is because of the insane principle amounts that's then subject to compound interest at an insane rate. Comparing it to car loans and home mortgages illustrates just how crooked the system is.

Agreed. Fix the loans, fix the rates, give reimbursements, give rebates, and lets end this ridiculousness once and for all. The fact that I took private loans for school that are as competitive as public ones is a gigantic embarrassment to the entire government system. Shame.

 

[deleted1100659]

1. comparing interest rates and amount of different loans is quite literally comparing apples to apples.
2. what is wrong with it being paid off in 25 years using income based repayments? that is the definition of a solution.
3. Did you not know the interest rate when you signed the loan to repay?

If your answer is I just want free money, ok bro I get ya.

1. not sure how to explain this in more simple terms, you're struggling to understand the connection here
2. A solution is to have a 25 year 10% additional income tax essentially, borrowing 300k, and end up paying back 1 million over 25 years? That's a great solution! Borrow 300k, and just pay back a million. Problem solved.
3. obviously I did, but when there isnt exactly viable alternatives during medical school and the government has a near monopoly on loans taken out during medical school, what does it matter if I know the interest rate or not? I either deal with the **** rate and be a doctor or not. We need doctors dont we? Should all people who use logic like myself, just have not been a doctor?


I feel like you're trolling, because you're saying free money when I never said I cared about free money, I just wanted a better system.

You have dichotomous thinking- black or white. Either im a respectable, prideful individual who borrow a loan at a high interest rate, pay it back for 25 years, and thank them for allowing me to give them a million dollars extra, or i'm just another government leech.

The majority supports an overhaul of the federal loan system, you are in the minority. Which means you're right and pretty much everyone else is wrong, or that you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[yeasports]

In a turn of events I think I may change my mind. I was tackled by a government loan officer! Without my knowledge and without my signature I now have a new student loan and it looks like I am somehow enrolled in college for a degree in astrology. Now when I flunk out in a couple of months I would rather enjoy everyone else paying for it. Problem solved.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

In a turn of events I think I may change my mind. I was tackled by a government loan officer! Without my knowledge and without my signature I now have a new student loan and it looks like I am somehow enrolled in college for a degree in astrology. Now when I flunk out in a couple of months I would rather enjoy everyone else paying for it. Problem solved.

We don't trust 18 year olds to order a glass of wine at a bar, why should we trust them to take out 6 figure loans?

 

[yeasports]

We don't trust 18 year olds to order a glass of wine at a bar, why should we trust them to take out 6 figure loans?

I do agree with this logic. I think 18 is a double standard. 21 to drink, 18 to die for your country.
Is it 21 to get other loans as well? I think it is 25 to rent a car. Not sure how old to buy a house, good discussion.

Not sure what to do about that. In my case N=1 I was poor and could not afford college. My parents were of no help. If I could not have signed my loans I could not have attended school. I took my loans as a gift (Ill be it an expensive one). I may have been better off a laborer, I would have been rather surly though.

 

[HemeOncHopeful19]

We don't trust 18 year olds to order a glass of wine at a bar, why should we trust them to take out 6 figure loans?

By that logic if we can’t trust them to make decisions with long term implications for their own lives, should we trust them to vote?

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

By that logic if we can’t trust them to make decisions with long term implications for their own lives, should we trust them to vote?

Probably not, but that's in the Constitution so its not going anywhere.

Interest rates and maximum loan amounts could be changed by the end of next week if we wanted to.

 

[yeasports]

1. not sure how to explain this in more simple terms, you're struggling to understand the connection here
2. A solution is to have a 25 year 10% additional income tax essentially, borrowing 300k, and end up paying back 1 million over 25 years? That's a great solution! Borrow 300k, and just pay back a million. Problem solved.
3. obviously I did, but when there isnt exactly viable alternatives during medical school and the government has a near monopoly on loans taken out during medical school, what does it matter if I know the interest rate or not? I either deal with the **** rate and be a doctor or not. We need doctors dont we? Should all people who use logic like myself, just have not been a doctor?


I feel like you're trolling, because you're saying free money when I never said I cared about free money, I just wanted a better system.

You have dichotomous thinking- black or white. Either im a respectable, prideful individual who borrow a loan at a high interest rate, pay it back for 25 years, and thank them for allowing me to give them a million dollars extra, or i'm just another government leech.

The majority supports an overhaul of the federal loan system, you are in the minority. Which means you're right and pretty much everyone else is wrong, or that you have no idea what you're talking about.

1. I do struggle quite a bit
2. agreed problem solved
3. before the loans there was no chance at all period. (it would have been a door slam for me)
Bolded:
If the majority believes in a change that is simple, vote it in, quick easy (should have been done long ago). If the majority believes in it I will not go against them.
I could have no idea what I am talking about, but that does not sound logical.

 

[Psych_hopeful]

I dont like this canceling of student debt. Aside from personal accountability issues, you aren't addressing the bigger picture. What really needs to be addressed is why colleges/ medical schools/ professional schools are charging so much for education and if their price tag is fair.

 

[Mass Effect]

By that logic if we can’t trust them to make decisions with long term implications for their own lives, should we trust them to vote?

Frankly, no.

 

[Mass Effect]

3. before the loans there was no chance at all period. (it would have been a door slam for me)

That's a strawman. No one is saying get rid of loans entirely.

 

[Mass Effect]

I dont like this canceling of student debt. Aside from personal accountability issues, you aren't addressing the bigger picture. What really needs to be addressed is why colleges/ medical schools/ professional schools are charging so much for education and if their price tag is fair.

If you read the thread, several of us addressed the bigger picture many times.

 

[Mass Effect]

From the closed thread

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2022/03/17/whitehouse-proposes-student-loan-cancellation-for-healthcare-workers-and-teachers/amp/

This is where you run into more trouble. You can't forgive HCW student loan debt and not the debt of grocery store clerks. They're also frontline. What about waiters? What about cops? Lots of frontline workers outside of healthcare. And why are teachers getting some forgiven when many of them were also frontline? And who determines what's frontline anyway? Is the pediatrician who kept his practice open in TX any less frontline than the EMT or ED doc in OH?

Forgiveness needs to be based on income if it's going to apply to only a portion of the population. It can't be tied to Covid and who does or doesn't deserve it due to their job.

 

[Psych_hopeful]

If you read the thread, several of us addressed the bigger picture many times.

Didn't read. Was in clinic and had like 20 pts and like a few in the hospital too XD

Andddd now I briefly checked over the thread. Honestly, I dont agree with this forgiveness. It's not really forgiveness, but punishing people for decisions that others have made. I would rather my tax dollars go to sponsoring something like clean energy or making better infrastructure. If someone wanted to go to school for a degree that which didn't produce a good return, why should everyone else have to pay for that? It wasn't everyone else's decision so thusly, they shouldn't be responsible for the consequences of that decision.

Decisions have consequences and I'm sorry if at 18 people aren't mature enough to realize that. But I don't think for a second that people should pay for the immaturity of others even if it is costly. I'll agree that high school needs to teach ROI for different degrees and pursuing something that will make a return, but it is also the responsibility of the individual to make decisions don't affect them in a poor way. (And I say this as someone who has made a ton of questionable decisions and had to learn from the consequences over and over and over again).

 

[Browns99]

Didn't read. Was in clinic and had like 20 pts and like a few in the hospital too XD

Andddd now I briefly checked over the thread. Honestly, I dont agree with this forgiveness. It's not really forgiveness, but punishing people for decisions that others have made. I would rather my tax dollars go to sponsoring something like clean energy or making better infrastructure. If someone wanted to go to school for a degree that which didn't produce a good return, why should everyone else have to pay for that? It wasn't everyone else's decision so thusly, they shouldn't be responsible for the consequences of that decision.

Decisions have consequences and I'm sorry if at 18 people aren't mature enough to realize that. But I don't think for a second that people should pay for the immaturity of others even if it is costly. I'll agree that high school needs to teach ROI for different degrees and pursuing something that will make a return, but it is also the responsibility of the individual to make decisions don't affect them in a poor way. (And I say this as someone who has made a ton of questionable decisions and had to learn from the consequences over and over and over again).

You are 100% correct in your post....end of story.

 

[yeasports]

Frankly, no.

what age then?

 

[yeasports]

That's a strawman. No one is saying get rid of loans entirely.

I guess we agree.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Didn't read. Was in clinic and had like 20 pts and like a few in the hospital too XD

Andddd now I briefly checked over the thread. Honestly, I dont agree with this forgiveness. It's not really forgiveness, but punishing people for decisions that others have made. I would rather my tax dollars go to sponsoring something like clean energy or making better infrastructure. If someone wanted to go to school for a degree that which didn't produce a good return, why should everyone else have to pay for that? It wasn't everyone else's decision so thusly, they shouldn't be responsible for the consequences of that decision.

Decisions have consequences and I'm sorry if at 18 people aren't mature enough to realize that. But I don't think for a second that people should pay for the immaturity of others even if it is costly. I'll agree that high school needs to teach ROI for different degrees and pursuing something that will make a return, but it is also the responsibility of the individual to make decisions don't affect them in a poor way. (And I say this as someone who has made a ton of questionable decisions and had to learn from the consequences over and over and over again).

The issue for me is that the government bears significant responsibility for the student loan problem we currently have. Unlimited loans have let schools increase tuition with basically no consequences.

 

[SurfingDoctor]

I understand some people make mistakes but there has to be SOME responsibility for loans taken.

Instead of just “cancelling” debt - How about 2-4 years of military or public service going forward to get forgiveness?

And going forward universities have to have some skin in the game. If they churn out grads with useless degrees that can’t get employment they should have to pay 50% of the loans. That would change tuition rates and admissions rapidly.

I'm just here to give my support for mandatory federal service, irrespective of loans or whatever.

Carry on.

 

[Psych_hopeful]

The issue for me is that the government bears significant responsibility for the student loan problem we currently have. Unlimited loans have let schools increase tuition with basically no consequences.

I've always said, unrealistic as it is and it will forever be, that there should be a standardized test on economics/statesmenship or whatever that politicians should have to pass before coming into office. The problem is that you have people in the government that want to make these idealistic goals with little regards for unintended consequences. This can be avoided with basic knowledge of fundamentals of the needed subjects, but unfornuately, there isn't really a check done on people on whether they grasp certain fundamentals or not.


I think also government needs to make some sort of auditing agency that will oversee the financials of at least the state run colleges. It would be far more questionable to do this for privately owned colleges however.

 

[NITRAS]

I feel more ashamed that I spend so much each year in taxes to the government, without much positive results. Also ashamed that our government offers loans at interest rates double the rate for a car or mortgage, knowing that tuition prices are six figures, unsubsidized, with daily compounding interest. Add a few more percent on the interest and it may be hard to tell the difference between them and a loan shark.

If they dont forgive my loans im completely ok with that; but at least set the rates to 0% for some time, for people to catch up, and then maybe do a variable rate that caps at 2-3% percent. 6-8% interest rate that compounds, is absolutely absurd when the debt is going to be a large amount.

6%-7% interest isn’t the problem. Loan sharks, I will admit I am not totally familiar with their interest rates, but I understand they are much higher with some implied penalties that can be quite painful.

Given that an 18 to twenty I something year old with no credit history, no job is by definition a high risk loan, 6%-7% isn’t bad.

On one hand, a generation has been brainwashed that it is extremely important to go to college, and any degree at whatever cost will pay for itself. This has been supplied by easy loans to students by the government, and colleges and universities have happily taken the money. They have done things to make college more appealing with increased costs because the consumer doesn’t feel the costs because of the easy loans. Most applicants probably couldn’t tell you their expected rates of return, the total cost of their loans, or that most schools graduate about fifty ish percent in 6 years. Or that there basically is no rate of return for going to a private school.

On the other hand, we as a society need people to fulfill their contracted obligations. Even dumb decisions. There are a host of people that prey on the desperate, and the financially illiterate. Credit cards, sub-prime loans, payday loans. 18 y/o can make a lot of poor decisions. I think this student loan Crisis is a reflection of poor parenting as much as anything else.

I am in favor of the government getting out of the student loan business all together. I think student loan forgiveness without reform is wrong. People who have made poor decisions don‘t have zero responsibility. In many cases they have been deceived or manipulated.

This isn’t a simple problem. There are no good simple solutions. Giving away 1.7 trillion dollars, largely to people with degrees seems to not be the right solution to me while continuing to loan them. This will simply encourage people to borrow more foolishly.