Contact your representatives to cancel student debt

[futuredo32]

Over 80 lawmakers call on Biden to release memo outlining authority to cancel student debt
it only takes a few minutes to send a letter or email. There is strength in numbers. Here is the link to contact your legislators. It can't hurt . The interest alone is killer. If we had all chosen a different path we would have been making a nice living instead of minimum wage in residency.

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

So you want to have student debt forgiven? Debt that you, and others, chose to take on? So you want the taxpayers to pay YOUR debt that YOU chose?

No.

Feel free to take these arguments to SPF.

Obligatory:

 

[futuredo32]

Tnanks for bumpimg my thread up.

 

[Redpancreas]

Over 80 lawmakers call on Biden to release memo outlining authority to cancel student debt
it only takes a few minutes to send a letter or email. There is strength in numbers. Here is the link to contact your legislators. It can't hurt . The interest alone is killer. If we had all chosen a different path we would have been making a nice living instead of minimum wage in residency.

What happens to those who have paid off their debt aggressively?

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

What happens to those who have paid off their debt aggressively?

Nothing.

 

[Franzd'Epinay]

So you want to have student debt forgiven? Debt that you, and others, chose to take on? So you want the taxpayers to pay YOUR debt that YOU chose?

No.

Feel free to take these arguments to SPF.

Obligatory:

Let's ignore the fact that people with student loans are taxpayers. I would love to hear your tax- and fairness-centered thoughts about the beginnings of programs like Medicare and Social Security--keeping in mind the fact that the first generations of beneficiaries at no point made any significant contributions to them.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

Let's ignore the fact that people with student loans are taxpayers. I would love to hear your tax- and fairness-centered thoughts about the beginnings of programs like Medicare and Social Security--keeping in mind the fact that the first generations of beneficiaries at no point made any significant contributions to them.

Are all people with student loans taxpayers, though? If they can't find a job because they didn't choose a degree that has any real world benefit, why should the rest of the taxpayers pay for their choices? Why should taxpayers pay off a debt that YOU chose to take on and promised to pay back? Why should I fund your choices?

As for MC/SS, they aren't going away, but its not what I would have wanted. Encourage people to save for themselves. They would come out with more money in the end, generally, just sticking it in an index fund compared to what return you get from the government. But that requires that people take responsibility for themselves... As I said earlier, these discussions really belong more in the SPF. Feel free to discuss them in there.

 

[Franzd'Epinay]

Are all people with student loans taxpayers, though? If they can't find a job because they didn't choose a degree that has any real world benefit, why should the rest of the taxpayers pay for their choices? Why should taxpayers pay off a debt that YOU chose to take on and promised to pay back? Why should I fund your choices?

The same line of reasoning applies for any social program: Why should I fund public education if I don't have kids? Why should I fund the fire department to put out the fire caused by your space heater? Why should I fund needle-exchange programs when people know drugs are bad? Why should I fund planting trees when I'll be dead in 50 years?

The short answer is because we live in a society, and sometimes what is good for society may not purely align with a single individual's personal interests.

Now, thinking specifically about student loan forgiveness: perhaps there is a societal benefit to reducing the debt burden of young adults at the ages when Americans traditionally are raising young families. Perhaps others don't experience schadenfreude at kids signing up for life-changing debt at an age when they were not old enough to vote, smoke, or drink. Perhaps others don't begrudge kids choosing to go to college after they were told their entire lives this was the only way to get ahead.

In the end, this is just a band-aid for outrageous higher education costs. I actually am not sure whose student debt should be forgiven, how much, or with what preconditions (if any). That being said, I don't think it's hard to see why there is an appetite for this. And I'm speaking as someone who will not personally benefit from whatever forgiveness scheme may be implemented.

 

[Spikebd]

The same line of reasoning applies for any social program: Why should I fund public education if I don't have kids? Why should I fund the fire department to put out the fire caused by your space heater? Why should I fund needle-exchange programs when people know drugs are bad? Why should I fund planting trees when I'll be dead in 50 years?

The short answer is because we live in a society, and sometimes what is good for society may not purely align with a single individual's personal interests.

Now, thinking specifically about student loan forgiveness: perhaps there is a societal benefit to reducing the debt burden of young adults at the ages when Americans traditionally are raising young families. Perhaps others don't experience schadenfreude at kids signing up for life-changing debt at an age when they were not old enough to vote, smoke, or drink. Perhaps others don't begrudge kids choosing to go to college after they were told their entire lives this was the only way to get ahead.

In the end, this is just a band-aid for outrageous higher education costs. I actually am not sure whose student debt should be forgiven, how much, or with what preconditions (if any). That being said, I don't think it's hard to see why there is an appetite for this. And I'm speaking as someone who will not personally benefit from whatever forgiveness scheme may be implemented.

It’s a horrifically sick and diseased society that bankrupts itself prioritizing the selfish wants of the elderly at the expense of the youth. Western culture has been poisoned and that’s why the world is looking East for new leadership.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

The same line of reasoning applies for any social program: Why should I fund public education if I don't have kids? Why should I fund the fire department to put out the fire caused by your space heater? Why should I fund needle-exchange programs when people know drugs are bad? Why should I fund planting trees when I'll be dead in 50 years?

The short answer is because we live in a society, and sometimes what is good for society may not purely align with a single individual's personal interests.

Now, thinking specifically about student loan forgiveness: perhaps there is a societal benefit to reducing the debt burden of young adults at the ages when Americans traditionally are raising young families. Perhaps others don't experience schadenfreude at kids signing up for life-changing debt at an age when they were not old enough to vote, smoke, or drink. Perhaps others don't begrudge kids choosing to go to college after they were told their entire lives this was the only way to get ahead.

In the end, this is just a band-aid for outrageous higher education costs. I actually am not sure whose student debt should be forgiven, how much, or with what preconditions (if any). That being said, I don't think it's hard to see why there is an appetite for this. And I'm speaking as someone who will not personally benefit from whatever forgiveness scheme may be implemented.

Education costs have risen, in part, by the increasingly available loans from the government. If these weren't so easily obtainable, I suspect that college prices would not be rising to such a degree.

As for choices, people chose to take a degree is something useless that has no significant job prospects, why should I have to be on the hook for their overpriced degree? When do you have to take personal responsibility for yourself? You can get a degree in engineering, accounting, finance, elementary education, and more and have a reasonable chance at having a paying job when you are done. Then there are degrees like architecture with over 13% unemployment rate, History at 18%, psychology (BS only) with almost 20%, Poetry at 11%, and that doesn't even take into account the ones in some niche ethnic/gender/etc studies. A significant number of people don't get paying jobs in their fields afterwards. They made the decision to pursue those fields. Why should taxpayers fund it?

If you go this route, you could end up where the government will decide what field you can go into, after all, they are paying for it. They want to have some chance of return on the education. Do you want to be told that you can only go into x field, rather than y field that you'd rather do?

 

[Lem0nz]

The same line of reasoning applies for any social program: Why should I fund public education if I don't have kids? Why should I fund the fire department to put out the fire caused by your space heater? Why should I fund needle-exchange programs when people know drugs are bad? Why should I fund planting trees when I'll be dead in 50 years?

The short answer is because we live in a society, and sometimes what is good for society may not purely align with a single individual's personal interests.

Now, thinking specifically about student loan forgiveness: perhaps there is a societal benefit to reducing the debt burden of young adults at the ages when Americans traditionally are raising young families. Perhaps others don't experience schadenfreude at kids signing up for life-changing debt at an age when they were not old enough to vote, smoke, or drink. Perhaps others don't begrudge kids choosing to go to college after they were told their entire lives this was the only way to get ahead.

In the end, this is just a band-aid for outrageous higher education costs. I actually am not sure whose student debt should be forgiven, how much, or with what preconditions (if any). That being said, I don't think it's hard to see why there is an appetite for this. And I'm speaking as someone who will not personally benefit from whatever forgiveness scheme may be implemented.

Student loan forgiveness does nothing, absolutely nothing, to solve the underlying structural problems. This is a MONUMENTAL cost for a 'band aid' that has zero long term fix. This idea is dumb in the vacuum without structural reform.

 

[Franzd'Epinay]

As for choices, people chose to take a degree is something useless that has no significant job prospects, why should I have to be on the hook for their overpriced degree? When do you have to take personal responsibility for yourself? You can get a degree in engineering, accounting, finance, elementary education, and more and have a reasonable chance at having a paying job when you are done.

We are likely to talk in circles about debt forgiveness, but you really need to look into the financial realities of being a teacher (especially in public school and doubly so in early childhood).

Teachers are probably the poster case for why (at least some form of) student debt cancellation should be on the table.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

We are likely to talk in circles about debt forgiveness, but you really need to look into the financial realities of being a teacher (especially in public school and doubly so in early childhood).

Teachers are probably the poster case for why (at least some form of) student debt cancellation should be on the table.

There are payment plan options out there that can make the debt easier to pay, particularly with the debt forgiveness programs that are already in practice. They can also pick cheaper colleges to attend rather than some expensive private school where they have no scholarships.

In the end, though, what it boils down to is that people are free to choose which field they wish to pursue. The taxpayer should not be on the hook for their bad choices, though. This is a voluntary decision that is made. Barring specific hardships, such as medical bankruptcy and other such mechanisms that are already in the law, you should have to pay back your loans.

Let's say you do provide loan forgiveness, what about all the responsible people that already paid off their loans? Why don't they get the benefit of all that sweet sweet government handout? I mean, they could have been investing their savings during that time and not paying off their loans. Are they going to get a handout too applied retroactively? I think not.

Also, the rising costs of college are in large part due to the many easy to obtain loans. What do you think happens when "free college" gets pushed like Bernie Sanders and his lot desire? Then you get colleges raising their costs because the government will just pay for it. Then taxpayers are on the hook for ever more money.

No, you decide to do something that you want to do and need finances to do so? You have to be responsible and pay it back. If you're old enough to vote, smoke, and make adult choices, you are old enough to be responsible for your student loans.

 

[Franzd'Epinay]

We're already going in circles, so I don't want to rehash prior points to address the points you brought up again in your post. But I do want to address this:

There are payment plan options out there that can make the debt easier to pay, particularly with the debt forgiveness programs that are already in practice. They can also pick cheaper colleges to attend rather than some expensive private school where they have no scholarships.

You should find it informative that you moved your goalposts in the span of two posts here. You went from "people going to college should find an important, in-demand job that actually requires higher education--such as teaching!" to "well, those indebted teachers probably made really dumb choices and all went to private schools with no scholarships... right?"

 

[Lem0nz]

We're already going in circles, so I don't want to rehash prior points to address the points you brought up again in your post. But I do want to address this:



You should find it informative that you moved your goalposts in the span of two posts here. You went from "people going to college should find an important, in-demand job that actually requires higher education--such as teaching!" to "well, those indebted teachers probably made really dumb choices and all went to private schools with no scholarships... right?"

Man, I have bad news for you. He isn't wrong. My wife is a high school teacher. We paid off her education at a state school between two part time jobs and scholarship money via the state university. This was not us 'being wealthy doctors' - it was paid off before I matriculated into medical school. It does not cost that much to become a teacher and can be done at a community college just as effectively as at a state university just as effectively at a for profit private institution. Choices and personal responsibility DO matter. And I'm pretty sure TG over there isn't arguing to remove PSLF for the low paying teachers it was designed for. He's saying we don't need to write a check to every rando in America who went to college. Going to college is a privilege, not a right. And it should remain so. No one is entitled to college.

And not to be a dick but doctors are the absolute last group of people who need loan foregiveness.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

Man, I have bad news for you. He isn't wrong. My wife is a high school teacher. We paid off her education at a state school between two part time jobs and scholarship money via the state university. This was not us 'being wealthy doctors' - it was paid off before I matriculated into medical school. It does not cost that much to become a teacher and can be done at a community college just as effectively as at a state university just as effectively at a for profit private institution. Choices and personal responsibility DO matter. And I'm pretty sure TG over there isn't arguing to remove PSLF for the low paying teachers it was designed for. He's saying we don't need to write a check to every rando in America who went to college. Going to college is a privilege, not a right. And it should remain so. No one is entitled to college.

And not to be a dick but doctors are the absolute last group of people who need loan foregiveness.

 

[futuredo32]

Maybe the higher paying specialties don't need help but I'm a psychiatrist and we don't make nearly as much as other specialties. We perform vital services. Do you want untreated mentally ill people living near you and your family? I graduated with 275k and due to interest I owe 400k. Same for FP, Peds, and other specialties that aren't reimbursed well.

 

[Lem0nz]

Maybe the higher paying specialties don't need help but I'm a psychiatrist and we don't make nearly as much as other specialties. We perform vital services. Do you want untreated mentally ill people living near you and your family? I graduated with 275k and due to interest I owe 400k. Same for FP, Peds, and other specialties that aren't reimbursed well.

You will make over 300k a year (or are already?). You can pay that off in 5-10 years. My tiny violin bleeds sweet notes of melancholy for your sorrow. You will still retire with 5-10 million in the bank including the time required to pay down your student loans.

And if you're really that concerned, go take extra ER shifts and pay it off in two years. The hIgHeR pAyInG sPeCiAlTiEs are still working 60-100 hours a week, it didn't magically turn into 40 hours after residency for us. If you work 100 hours a week as a psychiatrist you will make over 500k too. Except not at the opportunity cost of the extra 3-5 years it took us rich folk in the high paying specialties. So you'll actually make WAY more than us.

Like. Am I missing something here? Loan foregiveness is not designed to allowed rich entitled doctors to generate even MORE wealth. It is designed to allow minorities and people at the mercy of predatory schools and people in poverty to have a chance. The second you became a RESIDENT and made 65k a year you stopped being one of those people, much less an ATTENDING.

 

[Goro]

Maybe the higher paying specialties don't need help but I'm a psychiatrist and we don't make nearly as much as other specialties. We perform vital services. Do you want untreated mentally ill people living near you and your family? I graduated with 275k and due to interest I owe 400k. Same for FP, Peds, and other specialties that aren't reimbursed well.

I sympathize, but I have to trot out my old chestnut of asking you to show me the gun that wad placed to your temple that forced you to chose this career.

Once you got out of residency, you were making 2x what any of my PhD colleagues were making.

For UG, did you go to a CC? And a state school for UG? Did have a hefty UG debt load? Did you, per chance, turn down a state med school for a private one?

 

[RangerBob]

I think we too often forget that despite all it's shortcomings, guaranteed student loans have allowed more than an entire generation or two to be guaranteed the ability to go to college as long as they can get an acceptance (anyone can get an acceptance somewhere).

If I had the choice of either saving up/relying on my parents to pay my way through college vs society advance me the funds, I think the latter sounds pretty nice if I'm from a lower-income family. It's not society's fault that many of us have not interpreted guaranteed student loans to be a gift that allows us to pursue our dreams of further education/the ability to get our foot into the door of higher-paying careers.

So many of us (myself at times) interpret student loans as a set of handcuffs when many of us would've never had the ability to afford medical school (or undergrad) without that assistance. I certainly wouldn't be a physician without those guaranteed loans. I knew how much a burden they would be, but I also knew what doors they'd open--personally/professionally/financially.

Clearly the current system isn't perfect. But I'm not so sure alternates are better. Forgiveness makes 0 sense unless it is targeted (as Biden is doing), or accompanied by university free higher education. Which could be great, but then look at what universal K-12 gets us? Where are we ranked in the world? All the taxpayer money going to our universities/colleges, despite all the waste, have created the best higher education system in the world. People from across the world come here to study

 

[rokshana]

Maybe the higher paying specialties don't need help but I'm a psychiatrist and we don't make nearly as much as other specialties. We perform vital services. Do you want untreated mentally ill people living near you and your family? I graduated with 275k and due to interest I owe 400k. Same for FP, Peds, and other specialties that aren't reimbursed well.

Umm…psych averages $275k?
More than endocrine…

Medscape: Medscape Access

www.medscape.com

 

[Taddy Mason]

…Do you want untreated mentally ill people living near you and your family?…

Tangential, but this statement…from a psychiatrist….

That aside, I realize everyone’s situation is different, but I finished med school with ~$400K in student loan debt which was 100% on me and have managed to pay down my debt some and am just finishing residency, live pretty comfortably, and live in one of the highest COL areas in the county. I’m confused how yours would continue to balloon to that degree post residency. Also as a psychiatrist currently looking at attending jobs our compensation is quite reasonable and above that of many PCPs and office based specialists (save derm, cards, GI). Very easy to clear $300K without working absurd hours.

 

[HemeOncHopeful19]

Clearly the current system isn't perfect. But I'm not so sure alternates are better. Forgiveness makes 0 sense unless it is targeted (as Biden is doing), or accompanied by university free higher education. Which could be great, but then look at what universal K-12 gets us? Where are we ranked in the world? All the taxpayer money going to our universities/colleges, despite all the waste, have created the best higher education system in the world. People from across the world come here to study

And yet all those foreign students are filling the STEM classes while our home grown are in the humanities...

I don’t know why we think it’s somehow great for society when my waiter/bartender or secretary has a degree in creative writing. For way too many people these expensive degrees have nothing to do with learning material and are all about showing you can show up somewhere on time and occasionally do assigned tasks.

I decided a while back that I think there should be mandatory government service (not military) for 2 years in the US. That way the useless amongst us could decide that government jobs are for them and just stick around and skip paying for college.

PS Please contact your congressmen to
mail all Heme/Onc fellows a $30k check

 

[shaggybill]

Between my wife and I we have almost $600k in student loans. I would LOVE to have those paid off with student loan forgiveness.

But...as much as I would love to have those loans forgiven, it's not the right thing to do. It pains me to say that.

 

[HopelessMS]

Just had $470k Medical School loans discharged through PSLF. AMA.

As the title says, after 11 years of participation, I've just had my $470k principle + interest student loans discharged through Public Service Loan Forgiveness. Some details of my situation: -Had about $220k principle and interest at medical school graduation in 2010. All federal loans...

forums.studentdoctor.net

 

[j4pac]

I didn’t have student debt, but I served in the military for 5 or so years. I imagine that those sacrificing on deployment wouldn’t be so happy if everyone stateside living comfortable got their debt erased for just being

 

[DD214]

We definitely need less personal responsibility and more entitlement mentality to get our country back on track

 

[SurfingDoctor]

I cancelled my student debt...

Spoiler

By paying it off...

 

[DD214]

I bet your psychiatric patients probably think you should pay for the privilege of spending time with them instead of billing for your services

After all, you're a rich doctor and don't really NEED all that money.......

 

[baileyfal]

Over 80 lawmakers call on Biden to release memo outlining authority to cancel student debt
it only takes a few minutes to send a letter or email. There is strength in numbers. Here is the link to contact your legislators. It can't hurt . The interest alone is killer. If we had all chosen a different path we would have been making a nice living instead of minimum wage in residency.

You’d have better luck petitioning your mom to move back into her basement to save a few bucks

 

[Mass Effect]

This argument never changes on SDN.

I don't really care that much if my debt is forgiven. It would be terrific if it is. But I also have a stash I've been building since residency in case PSLF implodes or I'm denied. If my PSLF app goes through in a few years, then I'll use that money for upgrades to my home so either way I'm good.

But that doesn't mean there isn't something to forgiveness especially for low income folks. Some of you arguing about the "dumb" majors people had likely don't even know the stats. These aren't the uber wealthy who took out hundreds of thousands of dollars in loans to major in Romantic Poetry at Yale. A lot of these folks are first gen college students and/or folks who didn't have financially informed parents guiding them along the way. Who the hell gives an 18 year old a blank check to major in 18th Century Literature with no thought as to what that degree would do for them? A bank sure as hell wouldn't. But the government, in all its wisdom, decided that was a good idea and the universities were ready, happy and eager to cash in. These guys were set up to fail in what I can only describe as a Ponzi scheme. And now that they did, you can't just bankrupt a generation of students. I mean, you can but it's bad for society if you do. If the government can bail out corporations, they can sure as hell bail out these students and in doing so, they need to mandate no more loans of more than a certain figure (and since I'm not an economist, I don't know what that number is and no I don't need to know what that number is to have an opinion). Schools will either adapt by lowering tuition costs or they will close their doors because there are just not enough privately funded 18 year olds going to Podunkville College for the Greater Good. And in the meantime, we can still fund first gen college students with a much smaller loan and adequate financial and career counseling.

And for all those saying we shouldn't forgive student debt because "what about the ones who've paid"? So what? They paid, they're out of debt. Good on them. That argument has about as much teeth as your Grandpa telling you that back in his day, he had to walk to school uphill both ways to justify anything he wants you to do. If we used that as a deterrent, then nothing would ever change because it would always be unfair to some other group of people or some other generation who didn't have it as good. That's a silly argument that belongs right up there with "but it's not fair".

Tl;dr: student debt should be forgiven for low income people at least, student loan industry needs a significant revamp and people who already paid off their loans, tough.

 

[HemeOncHopeful19]

If the government can bail out corporations, they can sure as hell bail out these students and in doing so, they need to mandate no more loans of more than a certain figure (and since I'm not an economist, I don't know what that number is and no I don't need to know what that number is to have an opinion).

Is this a realistic possibility that has been proposed/under consideration? As far as I know campaign promises have been about expanding debt forgiveness but I have not heard anything about capping loan amounts or actual reform of the underlying issues.

 

[Mass Effect]

Is this a realistic possibility that has been proposed/under consideration? As far as I know campaign promises have been about expanding debt forgiveness but I have not heard anything about capping loan amounts or actual reform of the underlying issues.

I don't know because I haven't followed it as closely as some, but giving broad forgiveness without reform is a huge mistake. If they do that, we'll be right back here in 20 years.

 

[DD214]

You're welcome to write a huge check to pay for those who wish someone else would swoop in and save them from themselves

I'll even send you a certificate of appreciation!

I'll be keeping my hard earned money made from building my house of bricks instead of straw

 

[OptionOffense]

What happens to those who have paid off their debt aggressively?

They get their money back.

 

[RangerBob]

They get their money back.

Unfortunately they would not. With all the proposals that have been thrown out, not a single one included giving people money back for loans they paid off. As unworkable as mass student loan forgiveness is, doing so retroactively after they’ve been paid off is even more unworkable. Aside from the sheer cost (economic and political), where do you draw the line? People that borrowed after 2010? 2000? 1970?

From a purely pragmatic standpoint, mass student loan forgiveness just isn’t going to happen. Too much political capital is at stake. And it will only make an actual difference if tied to legislation that makes college free as well (otherwise it just worsens the increasing cost of college).

Not only can we not pass student loan forgiveness legislation right now (when democrats control congress and the presidency), but we couldn’t even pass the much cheaper free community college for all-which in of itself is a much better proposal than mass forgiveness.

In addition, just look at what the states are doing to their education budgets. How many are increasing it? How many have seen their state university system’s cost of attendance go down? Even here in CA we don’t have free college tuition for in-state residents.

If I want free college, I can join the military. Or I can study hard, become a doctor, repay my original investment costs, and make a boatload more on top.

 

[Mass Effect]

They get their money back.

Never going to happen. That's like saying if we ever pass free healthcare, anyone who's ever paid a copay or insurance premiums should get a refund. It just isn't even feasible.

 

[OptionOffense]

Never going to happen. That's like saying if we ever pass free healthcare, anyone who's ever paid a copay or insurance premiums should get a refund. It just isn't even feasible.

I was saying that in jest, but seriously the only reason anybody would cancel student loans is that it would jump-start the economy, not that it is the right thing to do.

 

[Mass Effect]

Unfortunately they would not. With all the proposals that have been thrown out, not a single one included giving people money back for loans they paid off. As unworkable as mass student loan forgiveness is, doing so retroactively after they’ve been paid off is even more unworkable. Aside from the sheer cost (economic and political), where do you draw the line? People that borrowed after 2010? 2000? 1970?

From a purely pragmatic standpoint, mass student loan forgiveness just isn’t going to happen. Too much political capital is at stake. And it will only make an actual difference if tied to legislation that makes college free as well (otherwise it just worsens the increasing cost of college).

Not only can we not pass student loan forgiveness legislation right now (when democrats control congress and the presidency), but we couldn’t even pass the much cheaper free community college for all-which in of itself is a much better proposal than mass forgiveness.

In addition, just look at what the states are doing to their education budgets. How many are increasing it? How many have seen their state university system’s cost of attendance go down? Even here in CA we don’t have free college tuition for in-state residents.

If I want free college, I can join the military. Or I can study hard, become a doctor, repay my original investment costs, and make a boatload more on top.

The only way to get school costs down is to pass legislation capping the amount of student loans everyone can take out. When the money well runs dry, you better believe schools will figure out how to cut costs. That's when loan forgiveness can be a thing.

I think your last sentence is idealistic. I don't necessarily think all of college should be free (though I'm not opposed to free community college or trade school), but saying that people should work hard to be a doctor is discounting the fact that undergraduate degrees are in the 6 figures. That's crazy. And of those, only half who want to will ever make it to med school, not because the rest didn't work hard but because med school admissions is a crap shoot and residency slots are competitive. An undergraduate degree should not cost as much as your first house. It never did before, because the government wasn't subsidizing gigantic loans for anyone to study whatever they want. They know they're financially ruining people and PSLF is around to keep the financial ruin in check. How about instead of loans and PSLF, the government just says "hey if you can't afford college, we'll let you borrow a smaller amount that you can subsidize with service" or "we'll send you to college only if you study these things we need people to study and work in these places we need people to work" rather than a blanket check to study whatever you want at whatever college you want at whatever price tag they ask.

 

[Mass Effect]

I was saying that in jest, but seriously the only reason anybody would cancel student loans is that it would jump-start the economy, not that it is the right thing to do.

Yup this is true. And it wouldn't just jump start the economy right now following a pandemic. I think at any point is student loans are forgiven (even if they limited it to just undergraduate loans or just for people making under 50K/year), it would help the economy.

 

[RangerBob]

The only way to get school costs down is to pass legislation capping the amount of student loans everyone can take out. When the money well runs dry, you better believe schools will figure out how to cut costs. That's when loan forgiveness can be a thing.

I think your last sentence is idealistic. I don't necessarily think all of college should be free (though I'm not opposed to free community college or trade school), but saying that people should work hard to be a doctor is discounting the fact that undergraduate degrees are in the 6 figures. That's crazy. And of those, only half who want to will ever make it to med school, not because the rest didn't work hard but because med school admissions is a crap shoot and residency slots are competitive. An undergraduate degree should not cost as much as your first house. It never did before, because the government wasn't subsidizing gigantic loans for anyone to study whatever they want. They know they're financially ruining people and PSLF is around to keep the financial ruin in check. How about instead of loans and PSLF, the government just says "hey if you can't afford college, we'll let you borrow a smaller amount that you can subsidize with service" or "we'll send you to college only if you study these things we need people to study and work in these places we need people to work" rather than a blanket check to study whatever you want at whatever college you want at whatever price tag they ask.

As a society we either need to determine that college for many isn't worth it (how many jobs really require that degree?) and stop sending so many high school grads straight to college, or that it's a requirement for our future. And if we decide the latter, then we should fund public universities to the point that all Americans can get that degree without being strapped in debt.

Because, you're right. Many college degrees won't pay for themselves. How many Gap managers need a 4yr degree from Berkeley? I'm all for an educated society though (it's a good idea in a democracy), so we may as well just start paying it forward and substantially increase public education to the point community college is free and that one could feasibly work their way through public colleges/universities without any debt left over at the end.

My opinion is we require 2yr mandatory service for all high school grads--military/peace corps/inner-city service, after which you can attend any state school/university you're accepted into free of cost. Anything after that you pay for/borrow for, but I agree there should be loan limits.

I'd be willing to bet the 2 years of service would actually have more impact on people's personal formation/job skills than any college degree.

 

[Mad Jack]

Student loans need to be capped at much lower amounts to prevent debts from getting out of hand in the first place. Colleges have been written what amounts to a blank check with no incentive to charge less than the maximum allowable. This has led to tuition and budgets that have grown in tandem, and debt loads to match.

 

[HemeOncHopeful19]

I was saying that in jest, but seriously the only reason anybody would cancel student loans is that it would jump-start the economy, not that it is the right thing to do.

The only reason anyone would cancel student loans is if they thought it would get them more votes than not cancelling student loans.

It could be bad for the country in the long run and they would not care as long as it gets them through the next election.

 

[Mass Effect]

As a society we either need to determine that college for many isn't worth it (how many jobs really require that degree?) and stop sending so many high school grads straight to college, or that it's a requirement for our future. And if we decide the latter, then we should fund public universities to the point that all Americans can get that degree without being strapped in debt.

Because, you're right. Many college degrees won't pay for themselves. How many Gap managers need a 4yr degree from Berkeley? I'm all for an educated society though (it's a good idea in a democracy), so we may as well just start paying it forward and substantially increase public education to the point community college is free and that one could feasibly work their way through public colleges/universities without any debt left over at the end.

My opinion is we require 2yr mandatory service for all high school grads--military/peace corps/inner-city service, after which you can attend any state school/university you're accepted into free of cost. Anything after that you pay for/borrow for, but I agree there should be loan limits.

I'd be willing to bet the 2 years of service would actually have more impact on people's personal formation/job skills than any college degree.

I agree with about 99% of the above. I definitely agree on mandatory service and then free college. I do think that will help with financial and career decisions as well. And I agree we should stop sending so many high school seniors straight to college if they don't want a career college can help with (hence free community college/trade schools because they have to work some place), but I think the retail worker may not be the best example because a lot of those people are working their way up in the fashion industry or makeup industry or whatever and I think certain college degrees can help with that, such as PR, marketing, fashion design, fashion merchandise, things like that. Even a business degree since nowadays some business degrees are geared toward things like that, especially at colleges that specialize in that kind of stuff, like Fashion Institute of Technology or whatever its name is NYC.

 

[smq123]

Ppqp0{8 I HAVE NO 888-304

What?

 

[hallowmann]

Do people not realize how beneficial the GI bill was for our country's economy and overall achievement? When tons of the country is drafted and they get to return and pursue education that they previously had no chance pursuing because of what family they were born into, we all benefit. When more people are educated and work in fields that we need, America gets stronger. The problem is that instead of something that makes sense like say free CC/trade school tuition for a predefined amount of public sector service, the financial industry in conjunction with our ridiculous two parties created a system built on interest and presumed indebtedness of most Americans. It was stupid, and it has basically shackled a generation with an amount of debt that the vast majority will carry to their death.

I get everyone's apprehension of "giving away money", but as a country we created a messed up system. Loan forgiveness for individuals that are struggling (I unfortunately don't include employed physicians making 2-10x the national average income in that group) has to be part of the solution, along with expanding programs like NHSC and similar non-medical programs that offer options for public (CC and state managed) education funding for people that commit to some public national service ahead of time.

I didn't think it needed to be said, but I don't believe that just because someone made a stupid choice when they were a teen and being told by everyone around them that "it will pay off in the longrun", they should then be left with crippling debt and death as one of the best ways out. If that's how we're going to handle things in this country, then why are we even treating the opioid epidemic? People should just die in the streets. Why are we paying for the medical coverage of the elderly? They should have just died earlier, they can just head out into the desert and wander, they'll be less of a burden. Why do we even talk about rehabilitation of people that have committed crimes? We should just execute them all. Afterall none of us would have the audacity of making a mistake, a wrong decision, or not knowing everything about everything before we do something, aMiRigHt? /s

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Do people not realize how beneficial the GI bill was for our country's economy and overall achievement? When tons of the country is drafted and they get to return and pursue education that they previously had no chance pursuing because of what family they were born into, we all benefit. When more people are educated and work in fields that we need, America gets stronger. The problem is that instead of something that makes sense like say free CC/trade school tuition for a predefined amount of public sector service, the financial industry in conjunction with our ridiculous two parties created a system built on interest and presumed indebtedness of most Americans. It was stupid, and it has basically shackled a generation with an amount of debt that the vast majority will carry to their death.

I get everyone's apprehension of "giving away money", but as a country we created a messed up system. Loan forgiveness for individuals that are struggling (I unfortunately don't include employed physicians making 2-10x the national average income in that group) has to be part of the solution, along with expanding programs like NHSC and similar non-medical programs that offer options for public (CC and state managed) education funding for people that commit to some public national service ahead of time.

I didn't think it needed to be said, but I don't believe that just because someone made a stupid choice when they were a teen and being told by everyone around them that "it will pay off in the longrun", they should then be left with crippling debt and death as one of the best ways out. If that's how we're going to handle things in this country, then why are we even treating the opioid epidemic? People should just die in the streets. Why are we paying for the medical coverage of the elderly? They should have just died earlier, they can just head out into the desert and wander, they'll be less of a burden. Why do we even talk about rehabilitation of people that have committed crimes? We should just execute them all. Afterall none of us would have the audacity of making a mistake, a wrong decision, or not knowing everything about everything before we do something, aMiRigHt? /s

I think this is worth highlighting. We say 18 year olds are adults, but they really aren't. They can't drink or rent a car. Think about that. We don't trust them to rent a 20k car for a week or have a glass of wine at a restaurant but we'll let them take out 6-figure loans without even batting an eye.

 

[HemeOncHopeful19]

I think this is worth highlighting. We say 18 year olds are adults, but they really aren't. They can't drink or rent a car. Think about that. We don't trust them to rent a 20k car for a week or have a glass of wine at a restaurant but we'll let them take out 6-figure loans without even batting an eye.

If we don’t think they can be held responsible for long term financial decisions should we raise the voting age while we’re at it?

 

[Spikebd]

Something to consider is that the same people funding the Medicare Ponzi scheme are the ones getting crippled right out of the gates by these student loans. The same young people took on all sorts of sacrifices to protect nursing home residents and other elderly during the COVID crisis. It’s also made even worse for young people when housing prices and stocks (although not lately) have regularly been hitting all-time highs, both of which are assets held in the hands of the elderly.

At some point, will that generosity towards retirees disappear?

 

[Mad Jack]

I think this is worth highlighting. We say 18 year olds are adults, but they really aren't. They can't drink or rent a car. Think about that. We don't trust them to rent a 20k car for a week or have a glass of wine at a restaurant but we'll let them take out 6-figure loans without even batting an eye.

Or sign the next few years of their lives away to fight wars they don't understand in places they've never been for men they'll never meet