Contacting Psychiatry Res program directors

[rss56]

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Has anyone started contacting program directors about your interest and where you are ranking them yet?

When do you guys think we should start this? Are the programs making there rank list yet?

 

[TexasPhysician]

I would let your top program know they are #1 whenever you have your top program picked out.

 

[toothless rufus]

Is this routinely done? What is the appropriate manner to go about this? Send an email? "Hi PD, This is Dr. Rufus. FYI you're #1."?? I would hate to do this if its inappropriate and could possibly decrease chance of matching.

Also, a program told me to "call us closer to ranking if you are interested." I am interested in ranking them. Is that what they probably mean?! They are not my #1 though. But I would be happy to end up there regardless. Should I call and say Yes, I am interested in ranking you, but not #1." Or just "Im interested in ranking you."

IOW, do you tell a program that you are ranking them highly even if not #1.

 

[ScienceMind]

Is this routinely done? What is the appropriate manner to go about this? Send an email? "Hi PD, This is Dr. Rufus. FYI you're #1."?? I would hate to do this if its inappropriate and could possibly decrease chance of matching.

Also, a program told me to "call us closer to ranking if you are interested." I am interested in ranking them. Is that what they probably mean?! They are not my #1 though. But I would be happy to end up there regardless. Should I call and say Yes, I am interested in ranking you, but not #1." Or just "Im interested in ranking you."

IOW, do you tell a program that you are ranking them highly even if not #1.

First, you should definitely tell your number 1 program that you are ranking them number 1. This is within the rules and will not hurt your chances at all. Second, you should not tell multiple programs that they are your number one. It is great to let a few programs know that you will rank them highly/strongly. FYI, just because you are told you are going to be ranked highly does not guarantee spot at that program, so don't let that affect your ranking. When I applied a few years back, I didn't match to programs that actually responded back to me, but matched to a program that didn't respond to any of my "love notes." That's just the way the match process works.

Good luck to everyone!!!

 

[atsai3]

Is this routinely done? What is the appropriate manner to go about this? Send an email? "Hi PD, This is Dr. Rufus. FYI you're #1."?? I would hate to do this if its inappropriate and could possibly decrease chance of matching.

Also, a program told me to "call us closer to ranking if you are interested." I am interested in ranking them. Is that what they probably mean?! They are not my #1 though. But I would be happy to end up there regardless. Should I call and say Yes, I am interested in ranking you, but not #1." Or just "Im interested in ranking you."

IOW, do you tell a program that you are ranking them highly even if not #1.

This has been discussed ad nauseum on SDN. See, for example, here and here. Bottom line, to quote myself:

You could try to say something like "you are one of my top 3 choices" or even worse "I will be ranking you very highly", but that won't really make a difference. No program director would hear that statement and think "ooh, maybe this means we'll be her #1 choice". Like I said, you only have 2 plays. "You're my #1" -- or not. The program director knows that you will profess your undying love to your #1 choice, whichever program your #1 choice may be. The program director knows this because applicants exhibit this behavior: universally, applicants will tell their #1 choice "you are my #1 choice" because they think it will induce the program to rank them more highly. (Of course, applicants only do this because everyone else is doing this. Clearly all applicants would be better off if no one professed their love to their respective #1 choices, but this is an unstable equilibrium because any applicant has an incentive to break rank.) The program director also knows that you know that you can (ethically) only profess your undying love to a single program. So when it comes time for you to say something to the program director, she knows that if you do not tell her "you're my #1", then she is not your #1 choice.​

-AT.

 

[Gordon Sims]

Has anyone started contacting program directors about your interest and where you are ranking them yet?

When do you guys think we should start this? Are the programs making there rank list yet?

How often should you contact PD's without seeming like a nuissance? I sent "thank you" letters/emails after every interview and plan to follow up in a couple of weeks once I finish interviewing. Should I have been doing more to show my interest?

 

[notdeadyet]

How often should you contact PD's without seeming like a nuissance? I sent "thank you" letters/emails after every interview and plan to follow up in a couple of weeks once I finish interviewing. Should I have been doing more to show my interest?

Personally, I think anything more than a "thank you for the interview" and "you're my #1" are at best a waste of time and at worst a nuisance. Unless you have a truly impressive update, I can't think of reasons to keep hassling a PD.

 

[Gordon Sims]

How often should you contact PD's without seeming like a nuissance? I sent "thank you" letters/emails after every interview and plan to follow up in a couple of weeks once I finish interviewing. Should I have been doing more to show my interest?

Thanks for the input "Notdeadyet." Are there any program directors out there that might be willing to comment?

 

[OldPsychDoc]

I'm not a PD, but I interview and attend our ranking meeting, and the PD is a close friend of mine.

Honestly--I totally discount 99%* of the post-interview correspondence. No matter how sincere you try to make it sound, it still comes across like the thank you letter you had to write to your great-aunt for the hand-knitted socks she gave you for your 10th birthday....by this I mean a very unappetizing combination of obligatory and obsequious.

At our program your initial ranking is determined by interviewer ratings filled out on the day of the interview. You might edge up or down based on some intangible we discuss at the meeting, but frankly you can tell us you've made us #1, and even if we believe you, it's not going to put you ahead of someone we might want more on our list. It's also unlikely to make much difference in comparing you to similarly rated peers--you're either in the Top 10, the top third, or "OK". If you're not OK--we won't rank you. (Also, I have seen candidates where we thought they were "mostly OK" make it easier for us to drop them off our list entirely by being inappropriate or unintelligible in their post-interview contacts. So really, anything more than "thank you" is potentially asking for trouble...)

*What's the 1% you ask? It's the rare occasion an applicant has made a real impression, a personal connection, and is following up on it--and that's rare indeed in a 30 minute interview... But if it's not truly there, don't try to fake it!

 

[atsai3]

Thanks for the input "Notdeadyet." Are there any program directors out there that might be willing to comment?

One contact is enough. Any more is annoying. Especially if you are a weak applicant (because then you are just viewed as desperate).

-AT.

 

[Gordon Sims]

I'm not a PD, but I interview and attend our ranking meeting, and the PD is a close friend of mine.

Honestly--I totally discount 99%* of the post-interview correspondence. No matter how sincere you try to make it sound, it still comes across like the thank you letter you had to write to your great-aunt for the hand-knitted socks she gave you for your 10th birthday....by this I mean a very unappetizing combination of obligatory and obsequious.

At our program your initial ranking is determined by interviewer ratings filled out on the day of the interview. You might edge up or down based on some intangible we discuss at the meeting, but frankly you can tell us you've made us #1, and even if we believe you, it's not going to put you ahead of someone we might want more on our list. It's also unlikely to make much difference in comparing you to similarly rated peers--you're either in the Top 10, the top third, or "OK". If you're not OK--we won't rank you. (Also, I have seen candidates where we thought they were "mostly OK" make it easier for us to drop them off our list entirely by being inappropriate or unintelligible in their post-interview contacts. So really, anything more than "thank you" is potentially asking for trouble...)

*What's the 1% you ask? It's the rare occasion an applicant has made a real impression, a personal connection, and is following up on it--and that's rare indeed in a 30 minute interview... But if it's not truly there, don't try to fake it!

Thanks for your insight OldPsychDoc.

 

[notdeadyet]

On a related question, I know that there's a lot of attention paid to notifying a program that they're your #1, but I wonder how or why PDs would really care.

I read how the algorithm that runs the Match works and it seems pretty simple to me:

• it's in an applicants best interest to rank programs in order of preference regardless of how they think programs will rank them.
• it's in a programs best interest to rank applicants in order of preference regardless of how they think applicants will rank them.

So this being true, it seems to me that whether a PD believes an applicant is telling the truth or not about their "you're my #1" email shouldn't really sway their opinion. Unless there's some internal attention paid to whether or not a program went down to candidate #18 vs #20 to fill their 10 slots, which seems pretty silly, no?

 

[TexasPhysician]

I'm not sure that this isn't against the rules, but I had program directors mention that they "wouldn't mind knowing where I plan to rank them".

One PD called me on the phone, asked where their program stood, and if they can do anything to improve the ranking.

I'm not trying to get any PD in trouble, but some PD's obviously wanted to know if I was ranking them #1. My actual #1 program did nothing whatsoever to contact me other than thank me for telling them I was ranking them #1. I doubt it benefited me at all in getting into my #1, but if my rankings were different, I think more correspondence would have helped at other programs. Just my experience.

 

[rss56]

Two ideas on that-

My dean of student's was a PD. He said in some circles its sorta like showing off/a contest to be like... look at me other PDs, we matched at 20 and you only did 35.

Second, I have gotten told MANY times on the interview trail by PDs something like, please keep in touch or contact me if you decide you are interested or please tell us if you plan on rank us #1 or highly. I have asked about this and some programs want people who WANT to be there. Rather than getting the super candidate that ranked them 10 (with Columbia, MGH, Cornell, Cambridge, Brown, Penn.... all high) and for some reason matched low on his/her list. Since those people may not be happy at their program. And I've also been told by a PD that a truly unhappy resident (particularly if he/she becomes a problem) is PD's worse nightmare

On a related question, I know that there's a lot of attention paid to notifying a program that they're your #1, but I wonder how or why PDs would really care.

I read how the algorithm that runs the Match works and it seems pretty simple to me:

• it's in an applicants best interest to rank programs in order of preference regardless of how they think programs will rank them.
• it's in a programs best interest to rank applicants in order of preference regardless of how they think applicants will rank them.

So this being true, it seems to me that whether a PD believes an applicant is telling the truth or not about their "you're my #1" email shouldn't really sway their opinion. Unless there's some internal attention paid to whether or not a program went down to candidate #18 vs #20 to fill their 10 slots, which seems pretty silly, no?

 

[Cinnameg]

I'm not a PD, but I interview and attend our ranking meeting, and the PD is a close friend of mine.

Honestly--I totally discount 99%* of the post-interview correspondence. No matter how sincere you try to make it sound, it still comes across like the thank you letter you had to write to your great-aunt for the hand-knitted socks she gave you for your 10th birthday....by this I mean a very unappetizing combination of obligatory and obsequious.

At our program your initial ranking is determined by interviewer ratings filled out on the day of the interview. You might edge up or down based on some intangible we discuss at the meeting, but frankly you can tell us you've made us #1, and even if we believe you, it's not going to put you ahead of someone we might want more on our list. It's also unlikely to make much difference in comparing you to similarly rated peers--you're either in the Top 10, the top third, or "OK". If you're not OK--we won't rank you. (Also, I have seen candidates where we thought they were "mostly OK" make it easier for us to drop them off our list entirely by being inappropriate or unintelligible in their post-interview contacts. So really, anything more than "thank you" is potentially asking for trouble...)

*What's the 1% you ask? It's the rare occasion an applicant has made a real impression, a personal connection, and is following up on it--and that's rare indeed in a 30 minute interview... But if it's not truly there, don't try to fake it!

Majorly helpful post, thanks Dr. Curmudgeon! I've always wondered how this is done . . . I'm having a hard time ranking just ~10 programs so I cannot imagine how a program could fairly rank 80 applicants seen over the course of 3 months.

 

[Cinnameg]

On a related question, I know that there's a lot of attention paid to notifying a program that they're your #1, but I wonder how or why PDs would really care.

I read how the algorithm that runs the Match works and it seems pretty simple to me:

• it's in an applicants best interest to rank programs in order of preference regardless of how they think programs will rank them.
• it's in a programs best interest to rank applicants in order of preference regardless of how they think applicants will rank them.

So this being true, it seems to me that whether a PD believes an applicant is telling the truth or not about their "you're my #1" email shouldn't really sway their opinion. Unless there's some internal attention paid to whether or not a program went down to candidate #18 vs #20 to fill their 10 slots, which seems pretty silly, no?

I think I might have an answer to this -- some programs like to be able to brag that they didn't have to go very far down their own match list to fill the program. It's an odd thing to brag about, but on one interview day I heard this particular program mention it more than once, making me think they must intentionally put applicants at the top of their list whom they know will rank them #1.

 

[Gordon Sims]

Has anyone started contacting program directors about your interest and where you are ranking them yet?

When do you guys think we should start this? Are the programs making there rank list yet?

So when should we start sending the "You're my #1" correspondence?

 

[flash]

it's 1/27...send them now/very soon, imo.

 

[Gordon Sims]

So when should we start sending the "You're my #1" correspondence?

Thanks for your input flash. Would any program directors or people involved in the ranking process please comment also?

P.S. I know that sending a "You're my #1" message won't affect ranking I'm just curious about when they are usually sent out.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Thanks for your input flash. Would any program directors or people involved in the ranking process please comment also?

P.S. I know that sending a "You're my #1" message won't affect ranking I'm just curious about when they are usually sent out.

We won't care, but our ranking meeting is next week--so if you're hoping to influence something that won't be influenced, it will be a completely moot point in about 5 days. 🙄

 

[Pollock]

Pollock

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Old Psych Doc,

If PDs write something like "we want you to work with us", "you are on the very top of our list", send you a letter home, or even call you home, how honest they really are? Would it mean the applicant is in the top 10, 1/3 or just OK? Do they do that to their top 10, 20, 30 or more?

Thanks,

Pollock

First off, I think that 98% of PDs are completely honest when it comes to recruiting and the match. There's simply no incentive for a reputable program to try to get residents into psychiatry under false pretences. No PD wants a resident who is unhappy about being at their program!

That said, not all PDs are going to provide you with any post-interview communication at all, so the absence of a love letter doesn't mean you're not on the rank list. From a PD perspective, most of it is just reminding the applicant that they are there... Except for the "you are on the very top of our list", I wouldn't try to read your position on the list out of any of those comments--and what that might mean in terms of cutoffs could vary from top 5 to top half.

Again--this isn't analyzable. Rank your programs in order of your preference.