contraction alkalosis

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urgewrx

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Hello,

This might be a ******ed question but someone is trying really hard to convince me that a esrd pt was so dehydrated that he developed contraction alkalosis. Can a pt with esrd on dialysis develop a contraction alkalosis? I say no. You need functioning kidneys for that.

I guess the hd machine can dialyse them until they are alkalotic. But, that doesn't translate into saying an alkalotic esrd pt must be hypovolemic.

What say you?
 
Well, I guess if you dialyze too much fluid off, then the patient would definitely be volume depleted. Not sure that "contraction alkalosis" would be the right word, though. Would like to see a nephro doc weigh in on this.
 
Interesting question. I would suggest that given the ridiculous physiologic reserve found in the kidney, unless it was completely "dead" the possibility would exist. Not sure if there is a "backup" mechanism inherent in the body that might address acid/base other than kidney.

Would be great to get some insight from fellows though.

Actually found some stuff you might find useful/inlightening:

http://content.karger.com/ProdukteD...ikelNr=170004&Ausgabe=241865&ProduktNr=223997
 
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You need a good GFR to get distal nephron RAS activity to lead to a net loss of H from the kidney. I doubt someone who is anuric or oliguric on HD could do that. I could imagine that if they were vomiting and dehydrated they could have a net loss of H from the stomach and wind up with an alkalosis
 
You need a good GFR to get distal nephron RAS activity to lead to a net loss of H from the kidney. I doubt someone who is anuric or oliguric on HD could do that. I could imagine that if they were vomiting and dehydrated they could have a net loss of H from the stomach and wind up with an alkalosis
In the context of vomiting and resultant volume contraction the mechanism for met alkalosis isn't just losing stomach acid through vomiting. Along with H+ you also lose Chloride (in the form of HCl) when vomiting. volume contaction then of course causes the kidneys to reabsorb Na, and thus water, for volume repletion. It must remain isoelectric in this process and that is usually accomplished by taking a Cl with the Na; however, with the decrease in Cl the anion reabsorbed with Na is HCO3, which actually causes the alkalosis.
 
In the context of vomiting and resultant volume contraction the mechanism for met alkalosis isn't just losing stomach acid through vomiting. Along with H+ you also lose Chloride (in the form of HCl) when vomiting. volume contaction then of course causes the kidneys to reabsorb Na, and thus water, for volume repletion. It must remain isoelectric in this process and that is usually accomplished by taking a Cl with the Na; however, with the decrease in Cl the anion reabsorbed with Na is HCO3, which actually causes the alkalosis.


I know. But nice summary for a medical student.
 
I know. But nice summary for a medical student.
Thanks man. I was just curious since you mentioned the "net loss of H+..." and that made it sound like that was the ultimate source of the alkalosis, which it seems like a lot of people (including residents at my home institution, not just med students) seem to think. Rock on. 👍
 
In the context of vomiting and resultant volume contraction the mechanism for met alkalosis isn't just losing stomach acid through vomiting. Along with H+ you also lose Chloride (in the form of HCl) when vomiting. volume contaction then of course causes the kidneys to reabsorb Na, and thus water, for volume repletion. It must remain isoelectric in this process and that is usually accomplished by taking a Cl with the Na; however, with the decrease in Cl the anion reabsorbed with Na is HCO3, which actually causes the alkalosis.

If H and Cl are being lost in equal proportions in the vomitus, then why must HCO3 be absorbed by the kidney...instead of just Cl?
 
If H and Cl are being lost in equal proportions in the vomitus, then why must HCO3 be absorbed by the kidney...instead of just Cl?
It doesn't have to do with losing H and Cl and maintaining electroneutrality at that point. It has to do with reabsorbing Na at the level of the kidney. Na is the only thing actively being reabsorbed, the anion is just a consequence of maintaining electroneutrality. You filter Na, HCO3, etc and with VC there is the stimulus (dec flow to kidneys, etc) to reabsorb Na. That is where it has to maintain electroneutrality. With the loss of Cl there is less Cl (which is the usual anion reabsorbed) to reabsorb along with the Na so HCO3 ends up being the anion that is reabsorbed.
 
If we are talking basic mechanisms, also include the increased distal delivery and alkalosis-producing effects (like taking diuretic), and internal dissociation curve via Henderson-Hasselbach, which will increase available sources of bicarb.

Point that has not been addressed, and the entire premise of the post is whether this can occur in a patient with known end stage renal disease.

Any takers on the latter (or initial) question?

Still going with redundancy and aforementioned mechanisms.
 
If we are talking basic mechanisms, also include the increased distal delivery and alkalosis-producing effects (like taking diuretic), and internal dissociation curve via Henderson-Hasselbach, which will increase available sources of bicarb.

These are not the basic mechanisms of renal physiology...we gotta get more basic:

Autoregulation (AR) and Tubuloglomerular feedback (TGF).

ESRD is overwhelmingly caused by diabetes, and less frequently HTN (although both are usually present together). With glycation, arteriosclerosis, and atherosclerosis of the renal arterioles, the ability of the afferent arteriole to regulate glomerular capillary pressure is lost. The mechanism is incompletely understood (how wonderfully and frighteningly we are created), however the pathology is better appreciated. With the loss of auto reguation, the kidney is unable to compensate for wide swings in pressure, resulting in hyperfiltration at high renal perfusion pressures (with damage to the glomerular capillaries and basement membrane) and Acute Kidney Injury (formerly ARF) at low pressures. The dings and insults add up over the years with a decremental decline in GFR and elevation of the Cr to the new/diseased "set point."

TGF is the change in GFR mediated by the macula densa in response to a decreased filtered load of Na/Cl. TGF and AR are intertwined; a decrease in GFR results in a decreased filtered load sensed by the macula densa initiating a response returning GFR (and the filtered load) to normal. Again the mechanism is incompletely understood, but the main players are thought to be Renin (via AngII), Adenosine, Thromboxane, and NO. The primacy of any one mediator is still debatable. Nevertheless, the effective circulating volume (and subsequent renal perfusion pressure) is maintained by decreasing sodium excretion.

Distal delivery is irrelevant in a nonfunctioning nephron. Histologic examination of the nephron in chronic kidney disease reveals celluar necrosis and apoptosis. As such, there is little to no active transport and the counter-current multiplier is compromised. The only functional part of the nephron would be the most proximal segments...simply by sheer volume of transport. 2/3 of the filtered load is handled in the proximal convoluted tubule.

Further, taking a diuretic (furosemide) results in impairment of autoregulation as renal perfusion is increased, returning us to our two most basic mechanisms, TGF and AR. Loop diuretics reduce autoregulation ( and increase renal perfusion) by blocking the Na/K/2Cl transporter in the loop of Henle. This transporter, in addition to generating free water, transports Na/Cl across the tubular cell to the macula densa. By blocking intracellular transport at this critical spot, there is reduced TGF (and AngII) reducing the effective circulating volume.


Point that has not been addressed, and the entire premise of the post is whether this can occur in a patient with known end stage renal disease.

Any takers on the latter (or initial) question?

Still going with redundancy and aforementioned mechanisms.

In ESRD, the tubular cells are dead or dying, active transport is compromised, and AR and TGF is disrupted. So, using barely understood physiologic concepts to describe a pathologic process seems silly.

I would surmise that the phenomenon of contraction alkalosis in these individuals is highly variable, depending mostly on the residual renal function of the individual patient. Many ESRD patients do make urine (remember that anuria is not one of the absolute indications for dialysis...AEIOU), as such, many of these individuals would be expected to have some residual functional HCO3/Cl transporters in the PCT.

Sorry this got choppy near the end, but I gotta meet some buddies for beers.
 
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It doesn't have to do with losing H and Cl and maintaining electroneutrality at that point. It has to do with reabsorbing Na at the level of the kidney. Na is the only thing actively being reabsorbed, the anion is just a consequence of maintaining electroneutrality. You filter Na, HCO3, etc and with VC there is the stimulus (dec flow to kidneys, etc) to reabsorb Na. That is where it has to maintain electroneutrality. With the loss of Cl there is less Cl (which is the usual anion reabsorbed) to reabsorb along with the Na so HCO3 ends up being the anion that is reabsorbed.

makes sense. I had forgotten that Cl was presumably low in concentration in the kidney due to loss in the stomach. thanks.
 
These are not the basic mechanisms of renal physiology...we gotta get more basic:

Autoregulation (AR) and Tubuloglomerular feedback (TGF).

ESRD is overwhelmingly caused by diabetes, and less frequently HTN (although both are usually present together). With glycation, arteriosclerosis, and atherosclerosis of the renal arterioles, the ability of the afferent arteriole to regulate glomerular capillary pressure is lost. The mechanism is incompletely understood (how wonderfully and frighteningly we are created), however the pathology is better appreciated. With the loss of auto reguation, the kidney is unable to compensate for wide swings in pressure, resulting in hyperfiltration at high renal perfusion pressures (with damage to the glomerular capillaries and basement membrane) and Acute Kidney Injury (formerly ARF) at low pressures. The dings and insults add up over the years with a decremental decline in GFR and elevation of the Cr to the new/diseased "set point."

TGF is the change in GFR mediated by the macula densa in response to a decreased filtered load of Na/Cl. TGF and AR are intertwined; a decrease in GFR results in a decreased filtered load sensed by the macula densa initiating a response returning GFR (and the filtered load) to normal. Again the mechanism is incompletely understood, but the main players are thought to be Renin (via AngII), Adenosine, Thromboxane, and NO. The primacy of any one mediator is still debatable. Nevertheless, the effective circulating volume (and subsequent renal perfusion pressure) is maintained by decreasing sodium excretion.

Distal delivery is irrelevant in a nonfunctioning nephron. Histologic examination of the nephron in chronic kidney disease reveals celluar necrosis and apoptosis. As such, there is little to no active transport and the counter-current multiplier is compromised. The only functional part of the nephron would be the most proximal segments...simply by sheer volume of transport. 2/3 of the filtered load is handled in the proximal convoluted tubule.

Further, taking a diuretic (furosemide) results in impairment of autoregulation as renal perfusion is increased, returning us to our two most basic mechanisms, TGF and AR. Loop diuretics reduce autoregulation ( and increase renal perfusion) by blocking the Na/K/2Cl transporter in the loop of Henle. This transporter, in addition to generating free water, transports Na/Cl across the tubular cell to the macula densa. By blocking intracellular transport at this critical spot, there is reduced TGF (and AngII) reducing the effective circulating volume.




In ESRD, the tubular cells are dead or dying, active transport is compromised, and AR and TGF is disrupted. So, using barely understood physiologic concepts to describe a pathologic process seems silly.

I would surmise that the phenomenon of contraction alkalosis in these individuals is highly variable, depending mostly on the residual renal function of the individual patient. Many ESRD patients do make urine (remember that anuria is not one of the absolute indications for dialysis...AEIOU), as such, many of these individuals would be expected to have some residual functional HCO3/Cl transporters in the PCT.

Sorry this got choppy near the end, but I gotta meet some buddies for beers.

nice summary! however, although anuria may not be in the AEIOU, any prolonged anuria certainly will lead to volume overload. i see your point though.
 
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