convince me of anesthesia

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DannyB said:
Since you have the data in front of you, what is the difference in step 1 scores? Then we can decide which is 'much more competitive'
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Sorry. Step 1 scores are only ONE aspect of matching into a Residency. "U.S Seniors" is "old school" and still the benchmark.

As a Med Student you won't be changing the Benchmark with just Step 1 data. Residency directors have been using "U.S. Seniors" for decades and while you may view Step 1 as the the benchmark it isn't.
 
BLADEMDA said:
http://www.nrmp.org/data/advancedatatables2013.pdf

There is the link. The data speaks for itself. ER is a more competitive match based on that data. Of course, you could argue the data is flawed due to the number of DO applicants. But, I think DOs matched into ER as well ( I looked at their data base).

Overall, the OP of this thread is just one more anecdotal story of an ER applicant being unable to match into ER but landing an Anesthesia spot.

Did you notice the 20% increase in Anesthesia Residency positions over the past few years? That is NOT a good thing for those looking to keep a high paying job.
Click to expand...

This has already been discussed, the number of people graduating anesthesia residency is likely flat, there are just more spots in the match now due to nrmp's new all in rule
 
BLADEMDA said:
Sorry. Step 1 scores are only ONE aspect of matching into a Residency. "U.S Seniors" is "old school" and still the benchmark.

ASa Med Student you won't be changing the Benchmark with just Step 1 data. Residency diredctors have been using "U.S. Seniors" for decades and while you may view Step 1 as the the benchmark it isn't.
Click to expand...

Well that's an interesting way to frame a debate, use your own benchmark. And you don't see how that isnt a great way of looking at things? Who cares about the quality of applicant, as long as they are a US senior. Step 1 score is the basis of everyone's application in every specialty now
 
DannyB said:
Well that's an interesting way to frame a debate, use your own benchmark. And you don't see how that isnt a great way of looking at things? Who cares about the quality of applicant, as long as they are a US senior. Step 1 score is the basis of everyone's application in every specialty now
Click to expand...

No. US Seniors has been the benchmark for decades. It is still the benchmark. Step Scores matter a great deal but preference is still given by many for US senior status. Why do you think the NRMP still uses the "U.S senior" metric in the data?


Did you notice the trend in Anesthesia from 2009-now? Did you look at ER? In 2009 Anesthesia was more competitive than ER based on the benchmark but that is NO LONGER The case.

(see page 9 Table 8)
 
DannyB said:
Well that's an interesting way to frame a debate, use your own benchmark. And you don't see how that isnt a great way of looking at things? Who cares about the quality of applicant, as long as they are a US senior. Step 1 score is the basis of everyone's application in every specialty now
Click to expand...

U.S. seniors are still viewed by many Top Residency programs as the Benchmark pool to judge all applicants against. Like it or not there is bias in favor of U.S. seniors.
 
BLADEMDA said:
U.S. seniors are still viewed by many Top Residency programs as the Benchmark pool to judge all applicants against. Like it or not there is bias in favor of U.S. seniors.
Click to expand...

As a former US senior currently at a top residency program you're not offending me. To completely ignore average step 1 score when saying one specialty is MUCH more competitive than another is frankly bizarre to me
 
Per charting outcomes 2011.


Mean USMLE for US Seniors in Anesthesiology = 226
Mean USMLE for US Seniors in EM= 223

Really going to argue that step 1 scores for anesthesiology is much higher than EM?


Look at the trends, EM is definately becoming competitive and Anesthesiology is becoming less competitive. This should absolutely not effect your satisfaction with your career, it is what it is.
 
DannyB said:
As a former US senior currently at a top residency program you're not offending me. To completely ignore average step 1 score when saying one specialty is MUCH more competitive than another is frankly bizarre to me
Click to expand...

ER is slightly more competitive than Anesthesia and that is a recent trend. In 2009 I told a med student visting with me that Anesthesia was a better choice than ER. I admit now he was right and I was wrong.

Look at the other specialties I listed to see really competitive specialties which don't accept many DOs or IMGs and have high STEP Scores. Those specialties are solid choices for the future and US seniors know it.
 
sylvanthus said:
Per charting outcomes 2011.


Mean USMLE for US Seniors in Anesthesiology = 226
Mean USMLE for US Seniors in EM= 223

Really going to argue that step 1 scores for anesthesiology is much higher than EM?


Look at the trends, EM is definately becoming competitive and Anesthesiology is becoming less competitive. This should absolutely not effect your satisfaction with your career, it is what it is.
Click to expand...

Not a single person in this thread said anesthesia has a much higher step 1 score, the debate was about EM being MUCH more competitive than anesthesia which it's not. No one was talking about career satisfaction either, but thanks for your contribution
 
sylvanthus said:
Per charting outcomes 2011.


Mean USMLE for US Seniors in Anesthesiology = 226
Mean USMLE for US Seniors in EM= 223

Really going to argue that step 1 scores for anesthesiology is much higher than EM?


Look at the trends, EM is definately becoming competitive and Anesthesiology is becoming less competitive. This should absolutely not effect your satisfaction with your career, it is what it is.
Click to expand...

Good post. The metric is still "US Seniors" though and not Step 1 or Step 2. Those scores matter a great deal but the benchmark remains US seniors.
 
BLADEMDA said:
Here is the data from 2013:

Plastic Surgery 95%
ENT 94.5%
Neurosurgery 93.1%
Ortho 91.8%


ER 81.9%
Anesthesia 69.7%


These percentages represent US Seniors matching to that specialty for 2013. The higher the number the more U.S Seniors landing a spot in that specialty vs the overall applicant pool. Assuming US Residencies prefer Us seniors (which they do) then those specialties with high percentages are the most competitive. Hence, ER is more competitive than Anesthesia in 2013.
Click to expand...

The data speaks for itself and reflects the opinions of US graduating Med Students (allopathic).
 
BLADEMDA said:
ER is slightly more competitive than Anesthesia and that is a recent trend. In 2009 I told a med student visting with me that Anesthesia was a better choice than ER. I admit now he was right and I was wrong.

Look at the other specialties I listed to see really competitive specialties which don't accept many DOs or IMGs and have high STEP Scores. Those specialties are solid choices for the future and US seniors know it.
Click to expand...

I'll agree it may be slightly more competitive, I do think anesthesia gets more high end applicants than ER, both in terms of med schools attended and >250 step 1 scores
 
BLADEMDA said:
The data speaks for itself and reflects the opinions of US graduating Med Students (allopathic).
Click to expand...

Is there a reason you just quoted your own post from 15 minutes earlier?
 
DannyB said:
Not a single person in this thread said anesthesia has a much higher step 1 score, the debate was about EM being MUCH more competitive than anesthesia which it's not. No one was talking about career satisfaction either, but thanks for your contribution
Click to expand...



Oh really? Didn't you just say this on page 1?

"If you take a look at the numbers anesthesia has a higher step 1 score than ER."

Yes, you didnt say "much" higher, but you were arguing that Anesthesiology has higher step 1 scores than EM. Do you think 3 points in 2011 is significant? Wonder what it is with this match?

With step 1 scores being essentially the same, EM having more US seniors matching, and less scramble positions, it is obvious where the trends are going. Not sure why this is an argument unless egos are at stake here.
 
DannyB said:
I'll agree it may be slightly more competitive, I do think anesthesia gets more high end applicants than ER, both in terms of med schools attended and >250 step 1 scores
Click to expand...

98 people applying anesthesiology in 2011 had USMLE Step 1 scores of 250+
92 applying EM in 2011 had USMLE step 1 scores of 250+


This was 2011, I think we can all see where the trend likely went this year.
 
sylvanthus said:
98 people applying anesthesiology in 2011 had USMLE Step 1 scores of 250+
92 applying EM in 2011 had USMLE step 1 scores of 250+


This was 2011, I think we can all see where the trend likely went this year.
Click to expand...
I'm very interested in the Charting Outcomes for 2013 whenever it comes out. I wouldn't be at all surprised if EM had a higher Step 1 score than Anesthesia.
 
Anesthesia is not a great choice right now unless you really love it and you always dreamed of becoming an anesthesiologist.
This is a specialty that is witnessing major changes and major uncertainty.
 
chudat said:
Why?

If you're interested in anesthesia, don't you want your specialty to be the most competitive?
Click to expand...
That would hold true if someone is competitive enough to secure a spot with ease. Sometimes it helps to get in while things are down and ride the wave up.
 
For the past couple years, there have been posts from people who have failed to match EM who scrambled into an anesthesia spot. It simply doesn't occur the other way around; I think EM had 0 unfilled spots last year vs dozens in anestheisa. Not sure about this year, but the trend is definitely clear.
 
Danny B lost this argument plain and simple. He needs to "man up" and just admit it. We all need to move on to another topic.

I'm not happy about the trend in Anesthesia since 2009. Not happy at all. But, if you are a DO applicant with a 235 Step 1 you may feel differently as your chances for matching just went up.

FWIW, I'm not a huge fan of ER as a specialty choice. Is it better than anesthesia? Perhaps. But, is it better than Anesthesia plus a Fellowship in Pain, Critical Care or Peds? No.
 
chudat said:
Why?

If you're interested in anesthesia, don't you want your specialty to be the most competitive?
Click to expand...

If I'm set on Anesthesia, why would I want more competition when I apply next cycle? I could care less about numbers and stats, I'm about getting a spot.

I agree with Plank and Blade in that Anesthesia is facing major changes. I think the days of doing all your own cases are over (unless you find your niche). But that doesn't mean other aspects of Anesthesia won't stay relevant or improve. With change the only way to increase your odds of ending up well is to embrace it and "play the game".

My thoughts are CC with cardiac/TEE focus and work in CVICU seem like it will still be fertile ground in the near future.
 
Job markets are pendular. EM, as a new field, is having it's up-swing now. As it saturates and sees its compensation decline, it will swing back down.

The smart money goes where the nadir's the highest.
 
BLADEMDA said:
http://www.nrmp.org/data/advancedatatables2013.pdf

There is the link. The data speaks for itself. ER is a more competitive match based on that data. Of course, you could argue the data is flawed due to the number of DO applicants. But, I think DOs matched into ER as well ( I looked at their data base).

Overall, the OP of this thread is just one more anecdotal story of an ER applicant being unable to match into ER but landing an Anesthesia spot.

Did you notice the 20% increase in Anesthesia Residency positions over the past few years? That is NOT a good thing for those looking to keep a high paying job.
Click to expand...

The increase in training spots for anesthesiologists only hurts anesthesiologists if they assume that the new grads all pile into the same geographic regions. I think there is probably some room to expand into very rural areas where there currently exist no anesthesiologists. I don't know if there is 120% more room for that, but I think there is a little room to expand. It may cramp those in the very desirable geographic areas but I think there are a lot of small(isn) rural hospitals that would still be happy to provide a high paying job to have a physician providing their anesthesia.

/distractingfromthread
 
Doctor4Life1769 said:
sounds like the stock market.
Click to expand...
Isn't that how many medical specialties are? I know a family friend that matched back in the early 90s. He's an IMG but managed to get into a decent program. He told me that at his time, Anesthesia hadn't boomed yet and he managed to get in before it took off.

I think the same can be said for many specialties. Hell, PM&R is really taking off over the past few years. Things come in waves, especially as far as medical student interest goes. Lots of students will just look for the most competitive specialty out there. Whereas who knows if something will change in Anesthesia over the next 5-10 yrs giving it back some allure.
 
BLADEMDA said:
Danny B lost this argument plain and simple. He needs to "man up" and just admit it. We all need to move on to another topic.

I'm not happy about the trend in Anesthesia since 2009. Not happy at all. But, if you are a DO applicant with a 235 Step 1 you may feel differently as your chances for matching just went up.

FWIW, I'm not a huge fan of ER as a specialty choice. Is it better than anesthesia? Perhaps. But, is it better than Anesthesia plus a Fellowship in Pain, Critical Care or Peds? No.
Click to expand...

EM can do critical care now and be boarded.
 
Ronin786 said:
Isn't that how many medical specialties are? I know a family friend that matched back in the early 90s. He's an IMG but managed to get into a decent program. He told me that at his time, Anesthesia hadn't boomed yet and he managed to get in before it took off.

I think the same can be said for many specialties. Hell, PM&R is really taking off over the past few years. Things come in waves, especially as far as medical student interest goes. Lots of students will just look for the most competitive specialty out there. Whereas who knows if something will change in Anesthesia over the next 5-10 yrs giving it back some allure.
Click to expand...

I was totally agreeing with your assessment, btw.
 
sylvanthus said:
EM can do critical care now and be boarded.
Click to expand...

so?

nobody's denying EM > anesthesia in terms of competitiveness right now. the fact that blade had to say anesthesia + fellowship > EM furthers the initial point.

EM is only 3 years to train, as well. That's an automatic win, if you can muster working in a mostly urgent care setting. I didn't enjoy the work environment or the patients that frequently visited the ED. So, no, EM was never really on my radar. I did a required month as an M4 and as an intern and didn't care much for it (or the shift swings).
 
What are the board score averages for neurosurgery, ENT, Ortho, and plastics?

One of the big reasons I left anesthesia to go into a surgical subspecialty was this mentality of "oh, I didn't match in specialty X (EM, Ortho, plastics, etc) so I'm gonna do anesthesia". It's bs. It belittles the field and I wish program directors would take people who really wanted anesthesia instead of anesthesia as a backup. It's too bad. But I can understand that they want the best applicants they can get....
 
uro9414 said:
What are the board score averages for neurosurgery, ENT, Ortho, and plastics?

One of the big reasons I left anesthesia to go into a surgical subspecialty was this mentality of "oh, I didn't match in specialty X (EM, Ortho, plastics, etc) so I'm gonna do anesthesia". It's bs. It belittles the field and I wish program directors would take people who really wanted anesthesia instead of anesthesia as a backup. It's too bad. But I can understand that they want the best applicants they can get....
Click to expand...

lol.

so anesthesia is like the fat girl everyone goes to when rejected by the pretty girls.
 
If you need

CONVINCING,

It's not the field for you.

Anesthesia as a specialty is the

OFFENSIVE LINE OF THE NFL.

Supporting character roles.

(ALTHOUGH, CURRENT DAY THE NFL OFFENSIVE LINEMEN ARE GETTING BIIIIIG CONTRACTS AND ON THE FUTURE COMING NFL DRAFT DAY SINCE THERE'S A PAUCITY OF "PRIME TIME PLAYAS" at the Skilled Positions, offensive line NFL Wannabes are gonna draft HIGH...wait and see)

I DON'T WANNA HAFFTA CONVINCE YOU.

If you don't see yourself as an anesthesiologist,

IT'S OK DUDE.

Consider psychiatry.

The more of "you" I see, it's better for me (sounds like a DRE lyric..)

since it's all

SUPPLY AND DEMAND MAN.

Love,

JET

😀
 
Doctor4Life1769 said:
lol.

so anesthesia is like the fat girl everyone goes to when rejected by the pretty girls.
Click to expand...

:laugh::laugh:

EXACTLY!!!!!

With ONE VERY IMPORTANT CAVEAT.

YOU LAUGH YOUR A S S OFF EVERY TIME YOU, WHEN AT THE BANK, ASK FOR A

DEPOSIT TOTAL OF YOUR ACCOUNT.....😍😍

I LOVE being the fat girl! :laugh:
 
You guys pick some weird crap to argue about. Wow. Who the F cares if EM or Anesthesia is more competitive. This is sorry pre-allo crap. What does US News say about it?🙄 I need another single malt.

Surgeons are a big enough pain in the 🙂 🙂 🙂 to deal with. There's not enough money in the world to get me into an ER with the drunks, drug seekers, dead beats, malingerers, homeless, dangerous, felons, etc. Not a chance in hell. Well, maybe long enough to drop the tube and get the F out.😀
 
Last edited:
Doctor4Life1769 said:
EM is only 3 years to train, as well. That's an automatic win, if you can muster working in a mostly urgent care setting. I didn't enjoy the work environment or the patients that frequently visited the ED. So, no, EM was never really on my radar. I did a required month as an M4 and as an intern and didn't care much for it (or the shift swings).
Click to expand...

I feel the same, except I didn't have to do a month as a med student 👍. I will never understand the cross interest lots of people have for EM and anesthesia. Makes me think they don't really know that much about one or perhaps both of the fields. I loathed every minute of my EM rotation. Worse than fam med...
 
BLADEMDA said:
Here is the data from 2013:

Plastic Surgery 95%
ENT 94.5%
Neurosurgery 93.1%
Ortho 91.8%


ER 81.9%
Anesthesia 69.7%


These percentages represent US Seniors matching to that specialty for 2013. The higher the number the more U.S Seniors landing a spot in that specialty vs the overall applicant pool. Assuming US Residencies prefer Us seniors (which they do) then those specialties with high percentages are the most competitive. Hence, ER is more competitive than Anesthesia in 2013.
Click to expand...
then Dermatology must be going down big time.

PGY1 - 55.3%
PGY2 - 85.6%

hmm.. interesting..
 
Last edited:
theeastsky said:
then Dermatology must be going down big time.

PGY1 - 55.3%
PGY2 - 85.6%

hmm.. interesting..
Click to expand...

I suspect Dermatology is SO SO difficult that even U.S. seniors can't match into the specialty right out of Med School. Perhaps, you must complete a three year IM Residency these days to get Derm?
 
BLADEMDA said:
I suspect Dermatology is SO SO difficult that even U.S. seniors can't match into the specialty right out of Med School. Perhaps, you must complete a three year IM Residency these days to get Derm?
Click to expand...

sure, but it's not necessary.

i know of 2 who matched straight into derm right out of med school. of course, they did match into their home derm program, so that helps.
 
jetproppilot said:
If you need

CONVINCING,

It's not the field for you.

Anesthesia as a specialty is the

OFFENSIVE LINE OF THE NFL.

Supporting character roles.

(ALTHOUGH, CURRENT DAY THE NFL OFFENSIVE LINEMEN ARE GETTING BIIIIIG CONTRACTS AND ON THE FUTURE COMING NFL DRAFT DAY SINCE THERE'S A PAUCITY OF "PRIME TIME PLAYAS" at the Skilled Positions, offensive line NFL Wannabes are gonna draft HIGH...wait and see)

I DON'T WANNA HAFFTA CONVINCE YOU.

If you don't see yourself as an anesthesiologist,

IT'S OK DUDE.

Consider psychiatry.

The more of "you" I see, it's better for me (sounds like a DRE lyric..)

since it's all

SUPPLY AND DEMAND MAN.

Love,

JET

😀
Click to expand...
I've actually been contemplating writing something along those lines for my personal statement. Do you think programs would laugh me out of the room for that?
 
BLADEMDA said:
I suspect Dermatology is SO SO difficult that even U.S. seniors can't match into the specialty right out of Med School. Perhaps, you must complete a three year IM Residency these days to get Derm?
Click to expand...
what about NS?
last year, among 194 spots, 18 were filled by IMG and 13 of them were even non-US IMG!
it's almost 10%..
i though NS is one of the most competitive specialty..

any thoughts?
 
Ronin786 said:
I've actually been contemplating writing something along those lines for my personal statement. Do you think programs would laugh me out of the room for that?
Click to expand...

Well obviously anything you put in a personal statement comes down to the details and the delivery, but I'd be pretty cautious about this approach. The person reading it might not feel like a supporting character. A personal statement ought to be about you ... using it to define the field you're not part of yet (but the reader is already) is pretty bold.

Sometimes bold is good. But wearing a Hawaiian T-shirt to your oral board exam is also bold.
 
IlDestriero said:
You guys pick some weird crap to argue about. Wow. Who the F cares if EM or Anesthesia is more competitive. This is sorry pre-allo crap. What does US News say about it?🙄 I need another single malt.

Surgeons are a big enough pain in the 🙂 🙂 🙂 to deal with. There's not enough money in the world to get me into an ER with the drunks, drug seekers, dead beats, malingerers, homeless, dangerous, felons, etc. Not a chance in hell. Well, maybe long enough to drop the tube and get the F out.😀
Click to expand...

👍
 
theeastsky said:
what about NS?
last year, among 194 spots, 18 were filled by IMG and 13 of them were even non-US IMG!
it's almost 10%..
i though NS is one of the most competitive specialty..

any thoughts?
Click to expand...

Neurosurgery is great match. Big, big dollars (even more than Jet earns). But, the residency is long and the work can be miserable along with a rough malpractice environment.
Some Neurosurgeons work their arses off.

Neurosurgery used to be not that difficult a match. But, these days med students have huge debt and very few doctors earn more than neurosurgeons.

As for IMGs neurosurgery usually accepts the best and brightest IMGs from around the world
 
Ronin786 said:
I've actually been contemplating writing something along those lines for my personal statement. Do you think programs would laugh me out of the room for that?
Click to expand...

I think writing a unique, interesting personal statement will make the reviewers remember you out of the thousands they have to read.
 
BLADEMDA said:
Neurosurgery is great match. Big, big dollars (even more than Jet earns). But, the residency is long and the work can be miserable along with a rough malpractice environment.
Some Neurosurgeons work their arses off.

Neurosurgery used to be not that difficult a match. But, these days med students have huge debt and very few doctors earn more than neurosurgeons.

As for IMGs neurosurgery usually accepts the best and brightest IMGs from around the world
Click to expand...

:laugh:

TOUCHE DUDE LOL

I dunno Blade... I agree and disagree about your neurosurgery comments.

YES the residency is miserable!

As you know, the biggest benjamins in medicine now is

SPINE SURGERY, of which neurosurgeons dominate. Yeah, there's a few orthopedists out there that do spine fellowships but the overwhelming majority is performed by neurosurgery-trained spine surgeons.

In our group these surgeries are our most lucrative as well, and we do alotta spines.

The neurosurgeons I work with are all ROKKSTARRS.

One of them is a close friend of mine so I know their schedule intimately.

Their lifestyles are better than you'd think since they've tailored their practices to elective spine work. In the two and a half years at my current gig, we've had to bring back ONE case for a hematoma.

ONE.

And spine is 33% of our business.

That's how good these guys are.

Of course they have the obligatory ER call at the neighboring general hospital but thats split between five neurosurgeons and their call there isn't killer.

Overall, the neurosurgeons I work with are very busy yet have a...what I would call for a neurosurgeon...a very good lifestyle.

They are all hard working dudes yet have more freedom than what you'd expect a busy neurosurgeon has because of how they've tailored their practice.
 
chudat said:
Why?

If you're interested in anesthesia, don't you want your specialty to be the most competitive?
Click to expand...

I don't think his ego is involved in this....lol

and more competitive = more difficult to match--even for a great candidate.
 
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