Cornell and PBL

[xanadont]

I was all set to go to UPenn when I got an e-mail out of the blue from Cornell. Cornell originally was my top choice but now I'm agonizing over the decision because I don't know if PBL is right for me. From what I understand in a PBL class you are presented with a problem, you go home and flip through your text to learn the relevent info. on your own, and go to class the next day to discuss. Does that sound right? I really like the idea of applying basic science to medical problems but this method also seems very undirected and I worry about not focusing on the right things or insignificant details (and wasting inordinate amounts of time). Also, does anyone know if you make presentations to your PBL group (e.g. if it caters to those who are the best at speaking and presenting materials)? Finally, I wonder if the lectures are enough to supplement what you learn in PBL and give you enough hard facts for the Boards. If anyone has any input or experience please post! At the end of the day, I want to be in New York but worry PBL is not for me.

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[deuist]

I wonder---for anyone who knows a lot about PBL---are there currently any statistics that show how PBL students perform against didactic students on the USMLE?

 

[edfig99]

okay...so let me say, being an alumnus of cornell's first class to graduate through the pbl curriculum, i could not see learning medicine and medical problem solving any other way. if forced to do it again, i'd do everything exactly the same. i really enjoyed my four years there and still stay connected to Cornell 5 years later...

there are many different teaching styles, and there are many different learner styles and it's hard to tell where people fall in. i will say that historically, even before the PBL curriculum Cornell has NEVER taught with the boards in mind. that is part of the reasons why boards are not required for promotion or graduation -- the sentiment is you will take it and pass your boards, and you'll perform just fine. once the pbl curriculum was implemented, it was exactly the same way...you took the boards when you wanted to take them and you did fine. so don't let performance on the boards be a major factor. people failed with lecture curricula. people failed with pbl. the numbers weren't made public but it doesn't matter -- ultimately your med school curriculum has little bearing on how you perform on the boards -- it's how well the individual buckles down and studies and practices test questions. that's really it. my guess is that schools that really heavily on shelf exams and practice board type questions actually score better on the boards, irrespective of curriculum.

the Cornell curriculum is built on the premise that you are adult learners and don't need information spoon fed, rather, some gentle nudging/guidance from a faculty preceptor, and active peer teaching. students do present topics to one another, almost daily. plenty of studies have long shown that lecture based formats, while preferred by physicians have little effect on long term knowledge retention and practice. active learning, however, such as what takes place in small groups and with peer teaching does lead to improved knowledge retention, practice changes, etc.

anyway, the lectures are just a skeleton of what you should know. the small group exercises/labs, the PBL cases and all the other modalities add some flesh to that skeleton and then you add the rest of the structures when you do your independent studying/reading. you can study as much or as little as you feel you need to.

PBL is just one aspect and one teaching modality used in the first two years. it's not so much to learn medicine by applying the basic sciences, but really, learning basic sciences in the context of a medical setting -- this makes the science "real" and helps make the concepts concrete, and provides some inkling into the underlying pathophys that you will concern yourself with in the clinical years.

this type of curriculum doesn't work for everyone. i personally like the flexibility, and to some extent, the insecurity -- but many people don't and that's okay. some say why pay so much tuition to learn from your classmates or learn on your own... however, it's not that different than people who pay tuition to not attend the lectures, and just learn from the lecture transcripts and last minute study sessions. i liked having a roadmap to follow so then i could go and learn what interested me and master information seeking. also, the flexibility of the curriculum allowed me to stay extremely active in many extracurricular activities and maintain a pretty damn good quality of life which was important to me.

anyway, congrats on having choices -- at either place you'll have a solid medical education, clinical experience and incredible opportunities. feel free to post any other questions you might have.

-ed

 

[edfig99]

I wonder---for anyone who knows a lot about PBL---are there currently any statistics that show how PBL students perform against didactic students on the USMLE?

you can go on pubmed and read some of the published abstracts...

here are some abstracts that may be of interst.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...d&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15734816&query_hl=1

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...d&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10667879&query_hl=5

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8323649&query_hl=5

there are others...have fun searching the literature. just know that for every study that says something does better, there are other studies that say it doesn't.

 

[finnpipette]

PBL is great for certain types of people. Cornell was definitely my top choice for medical school...I didn't get in. We have PBL at my school, and it's usually the worst 4 hours of my week. You get a bunch of vociferous people blabbering on...lost on tangents...waste lots of time. I can't stand it. Depends on how you learn. Might work for you. Really think about how you want to interact with your classmates before buying into PBL. As a side note, I'm sure PBL students do fine on the boards. Most people do. Just letting you know, PBL can be really painful if you don't like your the members in your group...really really painful.

 

[deuist]

PBL is great for certain types of people. Cornell was definitely my top choice for medical school...I didn't get in. We have PBL at my school, and it's usually the worst 4 hours of my week. You get a bunch of vociferous people blabbering on...lost on tangents...waste lots of time.

Wow, that sounds a lot like undergraduate religion classes.

liberal: "I follow post-modern thought in that ALL religions are equally valid."
conservative: "I believe that you're going to hell."

 

[dianamd]

I was all set to go to UPenn when I got an e-mail out of the blue from Cornell. Cornell originally was my top choice but now I'm agonizing over the decision because I don't know if PBL is right for me. From what I understand in a PBL class you are presented with a problem, you go home and flip through your text to learn the relevent info. on your own, and go to class the next day to discuss. Does that sound right? I really like the idea of applying basic science to medical problems but this method also seems very undirected and I worry about not focusing on the right things or insignificant details (and wasting inordinate amounts of time). Also, does anyone know if you make presentations to your PBL group (e.g. if it caters to those who are the best at speaking and presenting materials)? Finally, I wonder if the lectures are enough to supplement what you learn in PBL and give you enough hard facts for the Boards. If anyone has any input or experience please post! At the end of the day, I want to be in New York but worry PBL is not for me.

I have a lot of friends at Cornell... and wanted to respond to some of your questions.

The way you described PBL is right, but often you do it in groups -- so all the research doens't fall on you.

As for whether you waste inordinate amounts of time, of course, it is
a heuristic approach to learning, so it's not the most "direct"-- for
that, go to lecture or read a book. my friends tell me that it's a
great way to learn medicine, partly because you internalize the
diagnostic mindset-- ie, too do cases well, learn from cases.

Also, don't worry about if it "caters" to those with the best
presentation abilities. these are med students we're talking about.
Unless you are petrified in front of groups, you'll do fine. And if
you are petrified, get over it!

interestingly, my one friend who likes PBL the least (he would rather have all lectures) actually feels that he's getting a very good education -- b/c it's teaching how to diagnose more than just the material.

as a side note, remember that harvard (new pathways) does PBL as well -- so it can't be all bad.

anyway, new york is an amazing place to be...there is truly no place like it. it is great weather and i'm very happy to be here... have a good weekend! ~

 

[schooldaze]

Taken from another Cornell thread: It is only 1/3 PBL, 1/3 Lectures, and 1/3 small group learning. Hope that helps.

 

[doc05]

PBL is mostly crap, whether at Cornell or anywhere else. I would strongly recommend Penn over Cornell though -- lower cost of living, stronger reputation, and earlier entry into clinical training. Don't stress over preclinical training or the USMLE -- if you're at either Penn or Cornell, it doesn't matter, because you'll match well so long as you don't bomb step 1.

 

[greets fr. nyc]

PBL is mostly crap, whether at Cornell or anywhere else. I would strongly recommend Penn over Cornell though -- lower cost of living, stronger reputation, and earlier entry into clinical training...

hmm...........