Cornell pre-meds: Be forewarned

[Timberwolf]

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You are at a competitive disadvantage at rolling admission schools and should be aware of it.

If you do not already know how the system works, I'll briefly summarize. In the spring prior to the summer/fall you'll be filling out applications (typically your Junior year) you interview with the Health Careers Evaluation Committee (the HCEC). They compile your letters of recommendation and write a committee letter that is forwarded to all medical schools of your choosing. They, however, do not forward these letters until a date in late August- more than two months after the AMCAS application can be submitted and much later than when many secondary applications can be submitted. This delays the completion of your application at many schools until late August/Early September.

The reason I'm writing this is because I am a current applicant and have suffered the consequences of this policy. At a specific rolling admissions school to which I applied, my late August completion date removed me from consideration for anything but the waitlist. This school's system is to extend interviews to students based on completion date, regardless of individual merits. I have discussed this with their director of admissions and found this to be the case. Hence, no Cornell students could receive interviews for anything better than waitlist spots. The late completion date, I believe, has also resulted in late interviews at other rolling admissions programs.

I've discussed this to death with the HCEC and have received nothing better than an "I'm sorry, but...". They say that they cannot improve their system (due to large number of applicants, staffing, financials, etc) and do not seem willing to disclose the facts to the Cornell applicants who spend large amounts of time, money, and effort throughout the application process. They need to be told that the status quo is unacceptable. I do not know if this is the right audience to address this to, but here goes...

Feel free to PM me if you would like further information.

 

[rocketbooster]

You are at a competitive disadvantage at rolling admission schools and should be aware of it.

If you do not already know how the system works, I'll briefly summarize. In the spring prior to the summer/fall you'll be filling out applications (typically your Junior year) you interview with the Health Careers Evaluation Committee (the HCEC). They compile your letters of recommendation and write a committee letter that is forwarded to all medical schools of your choosing. They, however, do not forward these letters until a date in late August- more than two months after the AMCAS application can be submitted and much later than when many secondary applications can be submitted. This delays the completion of your application at many schools until late August/Early September.

The reason I'm writing this is because I am a current applicant and have suffered the consequences of this policy. At a specific rolling admissions school to which I applied, my late August completion date removed me from consideration for anything but the waitlist. This school's system is to extend interviews to students based on completion date, regardless of individual merits. I have discussed this with their director of admissions and found this to be the case. Hence, no Cornell students could receive interviews for anything better than waitlist spots. The late completion date, I believe, has also resulted in late interviews at other rolling admissions programs.

I've discussed this to death with the HCEC and have received nothing better than an "I'm sorry, but...". They say that they cannot improve their system (due to large number of applicants, staffing, financials, etc) and do not seem willing to disclose the facts to the Cornell applicants who spend large amounts of time, money, and effort throughout the application process. They need to be told that the status quo is unacceptable. I do not know if this is the right audience to address this to, but here goes...

Feel free to PM me if you would like further information.

They do this at my school, as well. They didn't send out my LORs until the very end of August. I think a large part had to do with my main premed advisor, who wrote the committee letter, procrastinating till the end of August to write her own. If I have to reapply this year, the LORs are already done and I plan to notify the advising office in a few months ahead of time to ask if they can send them in June. I don't see the problem in doing that if the letters are already on file.

 

[searun]

OP, I hear your pain and I agree. But at some schools, that is the way it is. At my school, I could not get an interview with the premed committee until late September, 4 months after I graduated. So I interviewed with the committee and the premed committee letter arrived in October at the schools to which I applied.

The good news, for me, is that I got 10 interviews, 6 acceptances, and I am a second year med student at my first choice med school, with a scholarship that covers my tuition. So, my advice is to relax, go with the flow, don't fret over what you cannot control, and have faith that all will be well. Cornell will go on, despite how upset you are. But you definitely can cut Cornell out of your will. Or ask your Dad to cut Cornell out of his will. But, hey, it you are a strong candidate and will be a great doc, you will be a doc. Cornell will not ruin your future.

So take a deep breath, you will be fine. Good luck.

Searun

 

[scarletgirl777]

You are at a competitive disadvantage at rolling admission schools and should be aware of it.

If you do not already know how the system works, I'll briefly summarize. In the spring prior to the summer/fall you'll be filling out applications (typically your Junior year) you interview with the Health Careers Evaluation Committee (the HCEC). They compile your letters of recommendation and write a committee letter that is forwarded to all medical schools of your choosing. They, however, do not forward these letters until a date in late August- more than two months after the AMCAS application can be submitted and much later than when many secondary applications can be submitted. This delays the completion of your application at many schools until late August/Early September.

The reason I'm writing this is because I am a current applicant and have suffered the consequences of this policy. At a specific rolling admissions school to which I applied, my late August completion date removed me from consideration for anything but the waitlist. This school's system is to extend interviews to students based on completion date, regardless of individual merits. I have discussed this with their director of admissions and found this to be the case. Hence, no Cornell students could receive interviews for anything better than waitlist spots. The late completion date, I believe, has also resulted in late interviews at other rolling admissions programs.

I've discussed this to death with the HCEC and have received nothing better than an "I'm sorry, but...". They say that they cannot improve their system (due to large number of applicants, staffing, financials, etc) and do not seem willing to disclose the facts to the Cornell applicants who spend large amounts of time, money, and effort throughout the application process. They need to be told that the status quo is unacceptable. I do not know if this is the right audience to address this to, but here goes...

Feel free to PM me if you would like further information.

Premed committee bureaucracy meant I experienced the same thing, but I find it hard to believe that a med school would basically exclude all the premeds from a single undergrad, especially an undergrad like Cornell? Anyway, for the most part med schools are understanding of late premed letters because they are out of your control, and this will not be the "kiss of death" for an application. Maybe you should name the med school that does this so that future applicants know not to bother.

 

[airplanes]

lol just kidding. I'm sorry to hear about your situation, it seems like a significant disadvantage. I'm guess I didn't realize until now that I'm really lucky I didn't have to deal with that at my school. Keep your head up and good luck with the rest of this application cycle.

 

[RoadRunner17]

At my school, I had my committee letter packet all written and ready to go at the end of June. But the career services there refused to send anyone's packets out until early-mid August. So, that sucked but I don't think it's affected my application that much, if at all (being complete end of August versus being complete end of July)

 

[cbrons]

You are at a competitive disadvantage at rolling admission schools and should be aware of it.

If you do not already know how the system works, I'll briefly summarize. In the spring prior to the summer/fall you'll be filling out applications (typically your Junior year) you interview with the Health Careers Evaluation Committee (the HCEC). They compile your letters of recommendation and write a committee letter that is forwarded to all medical schools of your choosing. They, however, do not forward these letters until a date in late August- more than two months after the AMCAS application can be submitted and much later than when many secondary applications can be submitted. This delays the completion of your application at many schools until late August/Early September.

The reason I'm writing this is because I am a current applicant and have suffered the consequences of this policy. At a specific rolling admissions school to which I applied, my late August completion date removed me from consideration for anything but the waitlist. This school's system is to extend interviews to students based on completion date, regardless of individual merits. I have discussed this with their director of admissions and found this to be the case. Hence, no Cornell students could receive interviews for anything better than waitlist spots. The late completion date, I believe, has also resulted in late interviews at other rolling admissions programs.

I've discussed this to death with the HCEC and have received nothing better than an "I'm sorry, but...". They say that they cannot improve their system (due to large number of applicants, staffing, financials, etc) and do not seem willing to disclose the facts to the Cornell applicants who spend large amounts of time, money, and effort throughout the application process. They need to be told that the status quo is unacceptable. I do not know if this is the right audience to address this to, but here goes...

Feel free to PM me if you would like further information.

this is one of the reasons I'm happy I go to one of those smaller "less presitgious" or "lower tier" schools. All of my LORs are already on interfolio and I don't apply till June. I feel bad for you Cornell kids, seems like a lot of bureaucratic BS to me.

 

[Lukkie]

this is one of the reasons I'm happy I go to one of those smaller "less presitgious" or "lower tier" schools. All of my LORs are already on interfolio and I don't apply till June. I feel bad for you Cornell kids, seems like a lot of bureaucratic BS to me.

the whole idea of a pre-med committee seems like pointless bureaucratic BS to me and i thank my lucky stars that my school, despite being one of the top for sending out medical school applicants, does not have one. on my 1.5 years on SDN i have yet to see any good reason for having these pre-med committees and those of you that have to deal with this garbage truly have my sympathies.

 

[schismal]

At a specific rolling admissions school to which I applied, my late August completion date removed me from consideration for anything but the waitlist. This school's system is to extend interviews to students based on completion date, regardless of individual merits.

I'm finding this part difficult to believe.

 

[evaluator]

You are at a competitive disadvantage at rolling admission schools and should be aware of it.

The reason I'm writing this is because I am a current applicant and have suffered the consequences of this policy. At a specific rolling admissions school to which I applied, my late August completion date removed me from consideration for anything but the waitlist. This school's system is to extend interviews to students based on completion date, regardless of individual merits. I have discussed this with their director of admissions and found this to be the case. Hence, no Cornell students could receive interviews for anything better than waitlist spots. The late completion date, I believe, has also resulted in late interviews at other rolling admissions programs.

I've discussed this to death with the HCEC and have received nothing better than an "I'm sorry, but...". They say that they cannot improve their system (due to large number of applicants, staffing, financials, etc) and do not seem willing to disclose the facts to the Cornell applicants who spend large amounts of time, money, and effort throughout the application process. They need to be told that the status quo is unacceptable. I do not know if this is the right audience to address this to, but here goes...

The statements above are inaccurate. Completion dates, and the definition of a complete application, vary considerably across the US medical schools. The medical school not named above considers completion date to include materials over which applicants have no control: the letters of recommendation and the evaluation letter. Many schools consider applications complete when the applicant submits only the elements of the application that are under his or her control. So this school is an outlier among schools with rolling admission and it is not really fair to characterize all schools with rolling admission this way.

Further, this school has a stated application deadline, which, for reasons the admissions office does not have under its control, is not the actual deadline before which they consider all applicants. Because they received so many applications from so many highly qualified applicants so early this year, the office regrettably had to close the regular admissions pool and not invite anyone to interviews who completed after a particular cutoff date in August. This again is an outlier situation, and not something that anyone could have foreseen.

The person who posted did not discuss this "to death" with the Cornell HCEC office, and did not receive the kind of vague bureaucratic responses that he characterizes as unwillingness to disclose information to applicants or inability to address the possibility of improving the system. To the contrary, concrete initiatives for improving the CU process were explained to this unhappy applicant. Disclosure was never even discussed; that tidbit must have been added to give rhetorical juice to the "injustice" argument. That's not really fair to Cornell.

As the replies posted here from fellow applicants indicate, in a system where three parties meet on these terms, the undergraduate school, the medical school and the applicant, circumstances beyond anyone's individual control can result in contrary outcomes. It can feel brutal at the time. It does not mean you are not going to medical school, or not going to become a doctor. The rallying cry that "Timberwolf" issued is not necessary, especially since it comes from misleading caricatures of an unfortunate situation.

This topic provides a timely opportunity for another kind of forewarning, one echoed by pre-health advisors everywhere: Applicants who look optimistically at their prospects, even as they dwindle or are temporarily thwarted, and thus maximize their opportunities for admission, are exhibiting the professionalism, grace and equanimity that health practitioner schools' admissions committees seek in the character of their applicants. These traits are more compelling to someone choosing the next generation of doctors than the trait demonstrated by this post; namely that when facing a painful but transient personal setback, the "victim" decides to go about "warning" others of perceived wrongs.

Being an insider to this situation (obviously!), we feel optimistic about Timberwolf's prospects and wish him well.

 

[schismal]

Wow, epic pwnage.

 

[flip26]

The statements above are inaccurate. Completion dates, and the definition of a complete application, vary considerably across the US medical schools. The medical school not named above considers completion date to include materials over which applicants have no control: the letters of recommendation and the evaluation letter. Many schools consider applications complete when the applicant submits only the elements of the application that are under his or her control. So this school is an outlier among schools with rolling admission and it is not really fair to characterize all schools with rolling admission this way.

Further, this school has a stated application deadline, which, for reasons the admissions office does not have under its control, is not the actual deadline before which they consider all applicants. Because they received so many applications from so many highly qualified applicants so early this year, the office regrettably had to close the regular admissions pool and not invite anyone to interviews who completed after a particular cutoff date in August. This again is an outlier situation, and not something that anyone could have foreseen.

The person who posted did not discuss this "to death" with the Cornell HCEC office, and did not receive the kind of vague bureaucratic responses that he characterizes as unwillingness to disclose information to applicants or inability to address the possibility of improving the system. To the contrary, concrete initiatives for improving the CU process were explained to this unhappy applicant. Disclosure was never even discussed; that tidbit must have been added to give rhetorical juice to the "injustice" argument. That's not really fair to Cornell.

As the replies posted here from fellow applicants indicate, in a system where three parties meet on these terms, the undergraduate school, the medical school and the applicant, circumstances beyond anyone's individual control can result in contrary outcomes. It can feel brutal at the time. It does not mean you are not going to medical school, or not going to become a doctor. The rallying cry that "Timberwolf" issued is not necessary, especially since it comes from misleading caricatures of an unfortunate situation.

This topic provides a timely opportunity for another kind of forewarning, one echoed by pre-health advisors everywhere: Applicants who look optimistically at their prospects, even as they dwindle or are temporarily thwarted, and thus maximize their opportunities for admission, are exhibiting the professionalism, grace and equanimity that health practitioner schools' admissions committees seek in the character of their applicants. These traits are more compelling to someone choosing the next generation of doctors than the trait demonstrated by this post; namely that when facing a painful but transient personal setback, the "victim" decides to go about "warning" others of perceived wrongs.

Being an insider to this situation (obviously!), we feel optimistic about Timberwolf's prospects and wish him well.

Stop all the pussyfootin' and name the med school that effectively moved its app deadline to August, please? That is frankly the only useful piece of info in this thread...

 

[Timberwolf]

The statements above are inaccurate. Completion dates, and the definition of a complete application, vary considerably across the US medical schools. The medical school not named above considers completion date to include materials over which applicants have no control: the letters of recommendation and the evaluation letter. Many schools consider applications complete when the applicant submits only the elements of the application that are under his or her control. So this school is an outlier among schools with rolling admission and it is not really fair to characterize all schools with rolling admission this way.

Further, this school has a stated application deadline, which, for reasons the admissions office does not have under its control, is not the actual deadline before which they consider all applicants. Because they received so many applications from so many highly qualified applicants so early this year, the office regrettably had to close the regular admissions pool and not invite anyone to interviews who completed after a particular cutoff date in August. This again is an outlier situation, and not something that anyone could have foreseen.

The person who posted did not discuss this "to death" with the Cornell HCEC office, and did not receive the kind of vague bureaucratic responses that he characterizes as unwillingness to disclose information to applicants or inability to address the possibility of improving the system. To the contrary, concrete initiatives for improving the CU process were explained to this unhappy applicant. Disclosure was never even discussed; that tidbit must have been added to give rhetorical juice to the "injustice" argument. That's not really fair to Cornell.

As the replies posted here from fellow applicants indicate, in a system where three parties meet on these terms, the undergraduate school, the medical school and the applicant, circumstances beyond anyone's individual control can result in contrary outcomes. It can feel brutal at the time. It does not mean you are not going to medical school, or not going to become a doctor. The rallying cry that "Timberwolf" issued is not necessary, especially since it comes from misleading caricatures of an unfortunate situation.

This topic provides a timely opportunity for another kind of forewarning, one echoed by pre-health advisors everywhere: Applicants who look optimistically at their prospects, even as they dwindle or are temporarily thwarted, and thus maximize their opportunities for admission, are exhibiting the professionalism, grace and equanimity that health practitioner schools' admissions committees seek in the character of their applicants. These traits are more compelling to someone choosing the next generation of doctors than the trait demonstrated by this post; namely that when facing a painful but transient personal setback, the "victim" decides to go about "warning" others of perceived wrongs.

Being an insider to this situation (obviously!), we feel optimistic about Timberwolf's prospects and wish him well.

To "Evaluator": I will be a professional and not mention this to the Cornell Daily Sun or SAEPE. Making personal attacks on a web forum does not seem becoming to either of us. Freedom of speech is an American right, and being a professional and having this right are not mutually exclusive.

My other issue, not mentioned above, had to do with the tens of thousands of dollars in out-of-state tuition this may cost me.

 

[nick_carraway]

Didn't seem very unprofessional to me. Maybe you should address his rebuttal point-by-point. I showed this thread to another Cornell pre-med and they told me that the delay is your fault from not submitting earlier, and not the standard.

I agree. I felt that I was at a disadvantage when I applied using my school's committee letter system, but in retrospect, I think I waited too long before getting everything ready. If I had done my job a month earlier, my letter would've been written a month earlier and it's a lesson that I am using for my reapplication.

I'm surprised that any school would set a limit so soon in August, but I do have to say that most med schools are not like this even if timing is important.

The OP is not totally to blame since some things were clearly out of his control, but I think LOR committees at many schools are aware of these logistical problems and the fact that their alumni are in med schools is testament to the fact that the system usually works.

 

[anbuitachi]

So does the committee send all the recs in August or is it first come first serve.

 

[flip26]

I agree. I felt that I was at a disadvantage when I applied using my school's committee letter system, but in retrospect, I think I waited too long before getting everything ready. If I had done my job a month earlier, my letter would've been written a month earlier and it's a lesson that I am using for my reapplication.

I'm surprised that any school would set a limit so soon in August, but I do have to say that most med schools are not like this even if timing is important.

The OP is not totally to blame since some things were clearly out of his control, but I think LOR committees at many schools are aware of these logistical problems and the fact that their alumni are in med schools is testament to the fact that the system usually works.

Skim the OP's other posts and an unflattering picture emerges...oh, and the school in question is evidently the Univ of Wisconsin...and a key piece of info was left out: the OP is a reapplicant, so it begs the question of why he bothered with the committee letter since he must have known of this timing problem the prior year...

 

[Timberwolf]

Didn't seem very unprofessional to me. Maybe you should address his rebuttal point-by-point. I showed this thread to another Cornell pre-med and they told me that the delay is your fault from not submitting earlier, and not the standard.

All Cornell letters are forwarded on the same date, regardless of when they were received (unless they were received after the initial date).

 

[nick_carraway]

Skim the OP's other posts and an unflattering picture emerges...oh, and the school in question is evidently the Univ of Wisconsin...and a key piece of info was left out: the OP is a reapplicant, so it begs the question of why he bothered with the committee letter since he must have known of this timing problem the prior year...

Well as a reapplicant, I would use the committee letter again if I could. Unfortunately, my alma mater transitioned to a letter forwarding service. I think the committee letter is valuable if you can get it early.

As for the U. of Wisconsin, no doubt that it's a tough school to get into. Not only do they prefer residents (big time), but they also have a high cut-off for non-residents. The fact that the OP got a waitlist is an encouraging sign.

 

[Timberwolf]

Skim the OP's other posts and an unflattering picture emerges...oh, and the school in question is evidently the Univ of Wisconsin...and a key piece of info was left out: the OP is a reapplicant, so it begs the question of why he bothered with the committee letter since he must have known of this timing problem the prior year...

Thank you flip. However, your deduction is incorrect. I didn't name the school in order to preserve some degree of anonymity. This will be my last post, although this thread may make for interesting dinner reading. 🙂

 

[Vihsadas]

The statements above are inaccurate. Completion dates, and the definition of a complete application, vary considerably across the US medical schools. The medical school not named above considers completion date to include materials over which applicants have no control: the letters of recommendation and the evaluation letter. Many schools consider applications complete when the applicant submits only the elements of the application that are under his or her control. So this school is an outlier among schools with rolling admission and it is not really fair to characterize all schools with rolling admission this way.

Further, this school has a stated application deadline, which, for reasons the admissions office does not have under its control, is not the actual deadline before which they consider all applicants. Because they received so many applications from so many highly qualified applicants so early this year, the office regrettably had to close the regular admissions pool and not invite anyone to interviews who completed after a particular cutoff date in August. This again is an outlier situation, and not something that anyone could have foreseen.

The person who posted did not discuss this "to death" with the Cornell HCEC office, and did not receive the kind of vague bureaucratic responses that he characterizes as unwillingness to disclose information to applicants or inability to address the possibility of improving the system. To the contrary, concrete initiatives for improving the CU process were explained to this unhappy applicant. Disclosure was never even discussed; that tidbit must have been added to give rhetorical juice to the "injustice" argument. That's not really fair to Cornell.

As the replies posted here from fellow applicants indicate, in a system where three parties meet on these terms, the undergraduate school, the medical school and the applicant, circumstances beyond anyone's individual control can result in contrary outcomes. It can feel brutal at the time. It does not mean you are not going to medical school, or not going to become a doctor. The rallying cry that "Timberwolf" issued is not necessary, especially since it comes from misleading caricatures of an unfortunate situation.

This topic provides a timely opportunity for another kind of forewarning, one echoed by pre-health advisors everywhere: Applicants who look optimistically at their prospects, even as they dwindle or are temporarily thwarted, and thus maximize their opportunities for admission, are exhibiting the professionalism, grace and equanimity that health practitioner schools' admissions committees seek in the character of their applicants. These traits are more compelling to someone choosing the next generation of doctors than the trait demonstrated by this post; namely that when facing a painful but transient personal setback, the "victim" decides to go about "warning" others of perceived wrongs.

Being an insider to this situation (obviously!), we feel optimistic about Timberwolf's prospects and wish him well.

I think I speak for everyone when I say that we are always very grateful when school administrators and faculty come to the Student Doctor Network to give applicants advice. For that, thank you.

In general, I agree with your post. The one part I have highlighted, however, does not seem to hold true in my experience. I would argue that there were only a very few schools on my list (one or two) that considered an application complete without letters of reccomendation. Could you please be specific and tell us which schools constitute "many schools" in this context? It is my experience and (seemingly) the experience of other re-applicants on this website that the date of marked completion is dependent on all items being received including letters of recommendation. Furthermore, completion date is tantamount to maximize success in the application process. My information does not have primary sourcing I can cite; It comes from the admissions offices, committee members, and administrators I have talked to at the schools I applied to.

Thanks again for contributing to The Student Doctor Network. I sincerely hope that you decide to stay and offer more of the "insider's perspective" to future applicants.

-V

 

[cbrons]

The statements above are inaccurate. Completion dates, and the definition of a complete application, vary considerably across the US medical schools. The medical school not named above considers completion date to include materials over which applicants have no control: the letters of recommendation and the evaluation letter. Many schools consider applications complete when the applicant submits only the elements of the application that are under his or her control. So this school is an outlier among schools with rolling admission and it is not really fair to characterize all schools with rolling admission this way.

Further, this school has a stated application deadline, which, for reasons the admissions office does not have under its control, is not the actual deadline before which they consider all applicants. Because they received so many applications from so many highly qualified applicants so early this year, the office regrettably had to close the regular admissions pool and not invite anyone to interviews who completed after a particular cutoff date in August. This again is an outlier situation, and not something that anyone could have foreseen.

The person who posted did not discuss this "to death" with the Cornell HCEC office, and did not receive the kind of vague bureaucratic responses that he characterizes as unwillingness to disclose information to applicants or inability to address the possibility of improving the system. To the contrary, concrete initiatives for improving the CU process were explained to this unhappy applicant. Disclosure was never even discussed; that tidbit must have been added to give rhetorical juice to the "injustice" argument. That's not really fair to Cornell.

As the replies posted here from fellow applicants indicate, in a system where three parties meet on these terms, the undergraduate school, the medical school and the applicant, circumstances beyond anyone's individual control can result in contrary outcomes. It can feel brutal at the time. It does not mean you are not going to medical school, or not going to become a doctor. The rallying cry that "Timberwolf" issued is not necessary, especially since it comes from misleading caricatures of an unfortunate situation.

This topic provides a timely opportunity for another kind of forewarning, one echoed by pre-health advisors everywhere: Applicants who look optimistically at their prospects, even as they dwindle or are temporarily thwarted, and thus maximize their opportunities for admission, are exhibiting the professionalism, grace and equanimity that health practitioner schools' admissions committees seek in the character of their applicants. These traits are more compelling to someone choosing the next generation of doctors than the trait demonstrated by this post; namely that when facing a painful but transient personal setback, the "victim" decides to go about "warning" others of perceived wrongs.

Being an insider to this situation (obviously!), we feel optimistic about Timberwolf's prospects and wish him well.

I think this person did a pretty good job of defending their institutional practices. I think the OP needs to do a point by point rebuttal of this if he wants others to take him/her seriously past this point.

And so this is another reason why I'm glad I don't go to one of those "upper tier" or "highly prestigious" schools -- you got your own advisers "lurking" on SDN. Regardless, I think "evaluator" has cogently defended their protocol and this quote is the best and one that I happen to agree with 100%:

These traits are more compelling to someone choosing the next generation of doctors than the trait demonstrated by this post; namely that when facing a painful but transient personal setback, the "victim" decides to go about "warning" others of perceived wrongs.

To "Evaluator": I will be a professional and not mention this to the Cornell Daily Sun or SAEPE. Making personal attacks on a web forum does not seem becoming to either of us. Freedom of speech is an American right, and being a professional and having this right are not mutually exclusive.

Looks like you are just proving "evaluator" correct by behaving in the exact way s/he just described.

As an aside I hate when people have their arguments totally dismantled and then act like they are a victim of discrimination (or whatever), just to marginalize the other person.

 

[pianola]

As an aside I hate when people have their arguments totally dismantled and then act like they are a victim of discrimination (or whatever), just to marginalize the other person.

Neither poster gave very descriptive information so it's hard to figure out exactly what was going on. I don't think anyone's argument was 'dismantled' because there were really just a set of vague assertions made by both parties.

That said, blaming admission status entirely on your pre-med committee is never going to be a good idea.

My alma mater (that I adore) sent out my letters at the beginning of July and it's plenty prestigious 😍.

 

[shaggybill]

I think this person did a pretty good job of defending their institutional practices. I think the OP needs to do a point by point rebuttal of this if he wants others to take him/her seriously past this point.

And so this is another reason why I'm glad I don't go to one of those "upper tier" or "highly prestigious" schools -- you got your own advisers "lurking" on SDN. Regardless, I think "evaluator" has cogently defended their protocol and this quote is the best and one that I happen to agree with 100%:





Looks like you are just proving "evaluator" correct by behaving in the exact way s/he just described.

As an aside I hate when people have their arguments totally dismantled and then act like they are a victim of discrimination (or whatever), just to marginalize the other person.

👍

As an aside, are pre-med committee letters required by most schools? Or can I just send 3-5 letters myself? I've never been clear on this. I'd much rather get a few letter from old professors that know me than have a single committee speak for me.

 

[ami1983]

I think I speak for everyone when I say that we are always very grateful when school administrators and faculty come to the Student Doctor Network to give applicants advice. For that, thank you.

In general, I agree with your post. The one part I have highlighted, however, does not seem to hold true in my experience. I would argue that there were only a very few schools on my list (one or two) that considered an application complete without letters of reccomendation. Could you please be specific and tell us which schools constitute "many schools" in this context? It is my experience and (seemingly) the experience of other re-applicants on this website that the date of marked completion is dependent on all items being received including letters of recommendation. Furthermore, completion date is tantamount to maximize success in the application process. My information does not have primary sourcing I can cite; It comes from the admissions offices, committee members, and administrators I have talked to at the schools I applied to.

Thanks again for contributing to The Student Doctor Network. I sincerely hope that you decide to stay and offer more of the "insider's perspective" to future applicants.

-V

I agree re:completion meaning all items of an application. I only had one school offer me an interview with 1 piece of my application being received. I'm curious to know these other schools that consider your application complete with only 1/few items received.

 

[bruceleehiiiyaa]

THIS IS SPAAAAARTAAAAAA

get it? cornell, red?

 

[anbuitachi]

LOL yea, im kinda interested about this too since i'll prob face this in a year or 2

 

[redlight]

👍

As an aside, are pre-med committee letters required by most schools? Or can I just send 3-5 letters myself? I've never been clear on this. I'd much rather get a few letter from old professors that know me than have a single committee speak for me.

the committee summarizes your compiled LORs and their experiences with you.
you don't have to go through your school's committee (if they have one) but if your school's committee is famous/well known and you are applying without them, adcom may ask why.

 

[Vihsadas]

the committee summarizes your compiled LORs and their experiences with you.
you don't have to go through your school's committee (if they have one) but if your school's committee is famous/well known and you are applying without them, adcom may ask why.

Actually, a number of schools require you to submit a committee letter if your school has a committee. If you do not, they usually require an explanation.

 

[flip26]

Thank you flip. However, your deduction is incorrect. I didn't name the school in order to preserve some degree of anonymity. This will be my last post, although this thread may make for interesting dinner reading. 🙂

Anonymity? Looks like a couple of people on this thread know exactly who you are, and you are to blame for that...

Whatever. I hope it all works out for you.

 

[cbrons]

Neither poster gave very descriptive information so it's hard to figure out exactly what was going on. I don't think anyone's argument was 'dismantled' because there were really just a set of vague assertions made by both parties.

That said, blaming admission status entirely on your pre-med committee is never going to be a good idea.

My alma mater (that I adore) sent out my letters at the beginning of July and it's plenty prestigious 😍.

no where in Florida is prestigious, Pianola. They call it the Retirement Home state for a reason 🙂

 

[redlight]

Actually, a number of schools require you to submit a committee letter if your school has a committee. If you do not, they usually require an explanation.

really? i've never applied (obviously) so i dunno for sure, but i always thought we had an option? actually, ive never heard of it being required (as in auto-reject if you dont use the committee), but i have heard that schools often ask why (sometimes on secondaries) you have choosen to bypass the committee. i don't think an app will get turned down for not using the committee letter, but regarless, i wouldnt suggest bypassing the committee unless one has strong reasons against it anyways.

which big name/private med schools require the committee letter?

 

[redlight]

no where in Florida is prestigious, Pianola. They call it the Retirement Home state for a reason 🙂

ive seen her (?) say she goes to a top 5 lib arts school. no top 5 schools in florida so she just lives/works there or somthing

 

[kavorca]

Why can't these pre-med advisory committees meet in the Spring? That is something I have always wondered. I know some do, but it seems to me that would solve a lot of problems.

 

[nick_carraway]

Why can't these pre-med advisory committees meet in the Spring? That is something I have always wondered. I know some do, but it seems to me that would solve a lot of problems.

From what I've been told by my alma mater, many students simply aren't ready in the Spring so their letters can't be written, which leads to a pile up in the summer.

 

[Dr Lyss]

really? i've never applied (obviously) so i dunno for sure, but i always thought we had an option? actually, ive never heard of it being required (as in auto-reject if you dont use the committee), but i have heard that schools often ask why (sometimes on secondaries) you have choosen to bypass the committee. i don't think an app will get turned down for not using the committee letter, but regarless, i wouldnt suggest bypassing the committee unless one has strong reasons against it anyways.

which big name/private med schools require the committee letter?

off the top of my head I think Columbia asks you to explain why you are not using the committee letter. I remember most of my schools preferring the committee letter.

 

[redlight]

i can see why they prefer it, but do they require it?

 

[Vihsadas]

i can see why they prefer it, but do they require it?

Some do required it, but most "prefer" it. It is an unwritten rule, however, that you should use your committee letter if you have access to it. Because my university does not have a pre-med advisory committee I had to explain this situation to a number of schools. The feeling I got was that they really, really prefer it.

 

[jult24er]

The statements above are inaccurate. Completion dates, and the definition of a complete application, vary considerably across the US medical schools. The medical school not named above considers completion date to include materials over which applicants have no control: the letters of recommendation and the evaluation letter. Many schools consider applications complete when the applicant submits only the elements of the application that are under his or her control. So this school is an outlier among schools with rolling admission and it is not really fair to characterize all schools with rolling admission this way.

Further, this school has a stated application deadline, which, for reasons the admissions office does not have under its control, is not the actual deadline before which they consider all applicants. Because they received so many applications from so many highly qualified applicants so early this year, the office regrettably had to close the regular admissions pool and not invite anyone to interviews who completed after a particular cutoff date in August. This again is an outlier situation, and not something that anyone could have foreseen.

The person who posted did not discuss this "to death" with the Cornell HCEC office, and did not receive the kind of vague bureaucratic responses that he characterizes as unwillingness to disclose information to applicants or inability to address the possibility of improving the system. To the contrary, concrete initiatives for improving the CU process were explained to this unhappy applicant. Disclosure was never even discussed; that tidbit must have been added to give rhetorical juice to the "injustice" argument. That's not really fair to Cornell.

As the replies posted here from fellow applicants indicate, in a system where three parties meet on these terms, the undergraduate school, the medical school and the applicant, circumstances beyond anyone's individual control can result in contrary outcomes. It can feel brutal at the time. It does not mean you are not going to medical school, or not going to become a doctor. The rallying cry that "Timberwolf" issued is not necessary, especially since it comes from misleading caricatures of an unfortunate situation.

This topic provides a timely opportunity for another kind of forewarning, one echoed by pre-health advisors everywhere: Applicants who look optimistically at their prospects, even as they dwindle or are temporarily thwarted, and thus maximize their opportunities for admission, are exhibiting the professionalism, grace and equanimity that health practitioner schools' admissions committees seek in the character of their applicants. These traits are more compelling to someone choosing the next generation of doctors than the trait demonstrated by this post; namely that when facing a painful but transient personal setback, the "victim" decides to go about "warning" others of perceived wrongs.

Being an insider to this situation (obviously!), we feel optimistic about Timberwolf's prospects and wish him well.

So, do letters go out before August next year?
Good luck timberwolf!

 

[Jtrenier]

From what I heard from HCEC, 75% of Cornell applicants get accepted into med school who go through the committee. Seeing that only 40% of applicants overall get in, I would say that Cornell doesn't set you back to the degree that the OP suggested.

 

[scarletgirl777]

[/b]

All Cornell letters are forwarded on the same date, regardless of when they were received (unless they were received after the initial date).

Same here. Again, most med schools realize that there's nothing you can do about it and make exceptions for people who come from schools with this system. I applied to some schools with "hard" deadlines, and they just allowed me to submit my LORs late. My premed counselors also work to talk with admissions committee people at other schools as part of their job and try to explain to them why the system works this way. Perhaps this would be a good idea for this particular scenario.

 

[Kaydubz]

the whole idea of a pre-med committee seems like pointless bureaucratic BS to me and i thank my lucky stars that my school, despite being one of the top for sending out medical school applicants, does not have one. on my 1.5 years on SDN i have yet to see any good reason for having these pre-med committees and those of you that have to deal with this garbage truly have my sympathies.

Yep, I am reminded once again how nice it was not having a pre-med committee to add another few loops to jump through.

 

[htownpremie]

i plan to donate to my alma mater this year, partly because our committee is on top of their crap. i applied to UCLA this year and they were like, if you get a secondary let us know, because they want them mailed. told them i got a secondary, and BAM letters were received by UCLA within 2 days. that's freakin' good service...and i've been out of school for nearly 2 years now. love love love loooove my pre-med committee.

 

[MDman87]

This may not be typical, but the pre-med advisory committee at my school meets in the spring (April). Does this mean that I shouldn't have to worry about the letters being sent too late? Just want to make sure

 

[87138]

From what I heard from HCEC, 75% of Cornell applicants get accepted into med school who go through the committee. Seeing that only 40% of applicants overall get in, I would say that Cornell doesn't set you back to the degree that the OP suggested.

Keep in mind that schools that tout these types of numbers often have other things going on "behind the scenes." For instance, some undergraduate institutions essentially try to "trick" (for lack of a better word) people applying to their schools (so, highschoolers) into thinking their school is amazing due to a published "90% placement rate" in medical school. What they don't tell you (unless perhaps you probe enough) is that often times this is because the committees often strongly dissuade/discourage people from applying to medical school (at least through their university-run committee) who they deem "unfit."

So for some starry-eyed high school kids surfing school X's website, seeing something like "90% medical school acceptance rate for our students!" to them means "wow, if I show up and take the required classes, there's a 90% chance that this school will prepare me well enough so that I am accepted!" when the reality behind the message is "we get to cherry-pick the individuals we feel like endorsing, and we don't gamble."

 

[nick_carraway]

Keep in mind that schools that tout these types of numbers often have other things going on "behind the scenes." For instance, some undergraduate institutions essentially try to "trick" (for lack of a better word) people applying to their schools (so, highschoolers) into thinking their school is amazing due to a published "90% placement rate" in medical school. What they don't tell you (unless perhaps you probe enough) is that often times this is because the committees often strongly dissuade/discourage people from applying to medical school (at least through their university-run committee) who they deem "unfit."

So for some starry-eyed high school kids surfing school X's website, seeing something like "90% medical school acceptance rate for our students!" to them means "wow, if I show up and take the required classes, there's a 90% chance that this school will prepare me well enough so that I am accepted!" when the reality behind the message is "we get to cherry-pick the individuals we feel like endorsing, and we don't gamble."

Did you know that Wellesley College pre-meds average a 90%+ acceptance rate to med school. Some years, it's 100%.

INSANE!

+1 for small liberal arts colleges.

 

[scarletgirl777]

Keep in mind that schools that tout these types of numbers often have other things going on "behind the scenes." For instance, some undergraduate institutions essentially try to "trick" (for lack of a better word) people applying to their schools (so, highschoolers) into thinking their school is amazing due to a published "90% placement rate" in medical school. What they don't tell you (unless perhaps you probe enough) is that often times this is because the committees often strongly dissuade/discourage people from applying to medical school (at least through their university-run committee) who they deem "unfit."

So for some starry-eyed high school kids surfing school X's website, seeing something like "90% medical school acceptance rate for our students!" to them means "wow, if I show up and take the required classes, there's a 90% chance that this school will prepare me well enough so that I am accepted!" when the reality behind the message is "we get to cherry-pick the individuals we feel like endorsing, and we don't gamble."

I suspect that this is the real reason med schools prefer pre-med committee letters.

 

[anbuitachi]

Did you know that Wellesley College pre-meds average a 90%+ acceptance rate to med school. Some years, it's 100%.

INSANE!

+1 for small liberal arts colleges.

how many is this out of.. i heard from a friend in wellesley who was also pre med that it's very difficult to get a good gpa there because classes aren't curved. so perhaps only the best applied?

 

[nick_carraway]

how many is this out of.. i heard from a friend in wellesley who was also pre med that it's very difficult to get a good gpa there because classes aren't curved. so perhaps only the best applied?

Yeah... I don't know the answer to any of those questions 🙂

I wikied Wellesley after Sen. Kennedy gave the commencement speech there a couple years ago and I was shocked by the numbers, to say the least.

 

[FOOLSGAME]

you are at a competitive disadvantage at rolling admission schools and should be aware of it.

If you do not already know how the system works, i'll briefly summarize. In the spring prior to the summer/fall you'll be filling out applications (typically your junior year) you interview with the health careers evaluation committee (the hcec). They compile your letters of recommendation and write a committee letter that is forwarded to all medical schools of your choosing. They, however, do not forward these letters until a date in late august- more than two months after the amcas application can be submitted and much later than when many secondary applications can be submitted. This delays the completion of your application at many schools until late august/early september.

The reason i'm writing this is because i am a current applicant and have suffered the consequences of this policy. At a specific rolling admissions school to which i applied, my late august completion date removed me from consideration for anything but the waitlist. This school's system is to extend interviews to students based on completion date, regardless of individual merits. I have discussed this with their director of admissions and found this to be the case. Hence, no cornell students could receive interviews for anything better than waitlist spots. The late completion date, i believe, has also resulted in late interviews at other rolling admissions programs.

I've discussed this to death with the hcec and have received nothing better than an "i'm sorry, but...". They say that they cannot improve their system (due to large number of applicants, staffing, financials, etc) and do not seem willing to disclose the facts to the cornell applicants who spend large amounts of time, money, and effort throughout the application process. They need to be told that the status quo is unacceptable. I do not know if this is the right audience to address this to, but here goes...

Feel free to pm me if you would like further information.

umad???

 

[pianola]

no where in Florida is prestigious, Pianola. They call it the Retirement Home state for a reason 🙂

Sweetheart I didn't go to Florida as an undergrad. Play again. 👍