Cornell premed grade deflation

[JIMMYJOHNivy]

How do adcoms perceive the rigor/grade deflation at Cornell compared to other universities?

Is it seen as grade deflated/rigorous as say Princeton, UChicago, Johns Hopkins, Wash U, Berkeley?

Or is it more on the level of UPenn, Columbia etc?

@LizzyM
@gyngyn

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[Toutie]

How can you have grade deflation if you have multiple A+?

 

[RNtoMD87]

Maybe he means grade inflation

 

[JIMMYJOHNivy]

How can you have grade deflation if you have multiple A+?

Actually, I don't think it's too bad here!

But all my advisors and colleagues tell me that premed at Cornell is significantly more rigorous than at other schools. Wondering if that statement holds any truth in the eyes of adcoms.

It's good to be aware of any potential advantages (or disadvantages) linked to my school name when applying.

 

[ChymeofPassion]

Someone succeeding at university of state > someone not succeeding at an (?) Ivy.

You may get boosts when applying to T20 that value incest due to pedigree.

I've been told Adcoms don't take into account grade deflation any more than they take into account inflation (cough Harvard cough), which isn't a lot. If a school admitted you, they believe you can succeed there and thus you should.

 

[Stagg737]

Someone succeeding at university of state > someone not succeeding at an (?) Ivy.

You may get boosts when applying to T20 that value incest due to pedigree.

I've been told Adcoms don't take into account grade deflation any more than they take into account inflation (cough Harvard cough), which isn't a lot. If a school admitted you, they believe you can succeed there and thus you should.

This will vary depending on school. At my orientation our dean straight up told us that they add/subtract points from GPA based on our UG institution. Agree with the last sentence though. US schools generally don't admit people they don't think will make it.

 

[JIMMYJOHNivy]

This will vary depending on school. At my orientation our dean straight up told us that they add/subtract points from GPA based on our UG institution. Agree with the last sentence though. US schools generally don't admit people they don't think will make it.

Yeah, I guess my question is: where does Cornell fall on the scale in terms of adding/subtracting GPA points?

 

[ChymeofPassion]

This will vary depending on school. At my orientation our dean straight up told us that they add/subtract points from GPA based on our UG institution. Agree with the last sentence though. US schools generally don't admit people they don't think will make it.

Damn I've never even thought of subtracting points that's brutal.

 

[ChymeofPassion]

Yeah, I guess my question is: where does Cornell fall on the scale in terms of adding/subtracting GPA points?

Nothing in this process is that cut and dry. It'll most likely be interpreted in the context of your application and MCAT score. I think I've heard @Goro say something among those lines.

 

[Medic741]

How do adcoms perceive the rigor/grade deflation at Cornell compared to other universities?

Is it seen as grade deflated/rigorous as say Princeton, UChicago, Johns Hopkins, Wash U, Berkeley?

Or is it more on the level of UPenn, Columbia etc?

@LizzyM
@gyngyn

Gotta love Cornell...

 

[LizzyM]

Gotta love Cornell...

"Easy to get in, hard to stay in." But I don't see us cutting Cornellians any slack with regard to GPA.

 

[JIMMYJOHNivy]

"Easy to get in, hard to stay in." But I don't see us cutting Cornellians any slack with regard to GPA.

Huh...I didn't know 10.3% acceptance rate constituted "easy to get in"

So I take it then that Cornell's rigor falls along the lines of Columbia & UPenn? Or would your school consider it to be even easier than those schools?

 

[LizzyM]

Huh...I didn't know 10.3% acceptance rate constituted "easy to get in"

So I take it then that Cornell's rigor falls along the lines of Columbia & UPenn? Or would your school consider it to be even easier than those schools?

It has the highest admission rate of the Ivys.

 

[BostonGeorge]

How do adcoms perceive the rigor/grade deflation at Cornell compared to other universities?

Is it seen as grade deflated/rigorous as say Princeton, UChicago, Johns Hopkins, Wash U, Berkeley?

Or is it more on the level of UPenn, Columbia etc?

I had a few friends at Cornell and from what I've heard I'd definitely put it on that list of notorious grade deflating undergrads. However, realize that there are going to be lots of people who didn't go to a top tier grade deflating school and simply don't know how competitive it is at those places.

 

[Princeton Medical Student]

tbh the current meta for med school admissions is to go to the ****tiest state school possible, and do a grade inflating history or something degree.

 

[gyngyn]

How do adcoms perceive the rigor/grade deflation at Cornell compared to other universities?

Is it seen as grade deflated/rigorous as say Princeton, UChicago, Johns Hopkins, Wash U, Berkeley?

Or is it more on the level of UPenn, Columbia etc?

@LizzyM
@gyngyn

It's all about the same.

 

[MyOdyssey]

Huh...I didn't know 10.3% acceptance rate constituted "easy to get in"

So I take it then that Cornell's rigor falls along the lines of Columbia & UPenn? Or would your school consider it to be even easier than those schools?

What is the average graduating GPA at Cornell?

As a Cornell student, perhaps you have access to that data?

 

[ginsengreset]

How do adcoms perceive the rigor/grade deflation at Cornell compared to other universities?

Is it seen as grade deflated/rigorous as say Princeton, UChicago, Johns Hopkins, Wash U, Berkeley?

Or is it more on the level of UPenn, Columbia etc?

@LizzyM
@gyngyn

I'm not sure what you mean by Columbia's level, but the average sGPA of a Columbia undergrad who gets into medical school is a 3.49, and the average cGPA is a 3.6.

 

[atomi]

It will vary depending on the adcom’s preference of admitting children of wealthy people. Funny which schools care about elite undergrad vs. cow college state U. Everyone gets As at Brown. It’s a joke and everyone knows it. Yet there are those who will admit the silver spoon 4.0 liberal arts major from brown over the 3.0 mechanical engineering middle class kid from western arkansee tech who took 20 credits of hard science a semester while working part time and doing a co-op in industry. And claim to care about things like social justice.

You can guess why.

Obviously this only applies to certain schools, but the bias is very real.

 

[MyOdyssey]

It will vary depending on the adcom’s preference of admitting children of wealthy people. Funny which schools care about elite undergrad vs. cow college state U. Everyone gets As at Brown. It’s a joke and everyone knows it. Yet there are those who will admit the silver spoon 4.0 liberal arts major from brown over the 3.0 mechanical engineering middle class kid from western arkansee tech who took 20 credits of hard science a semester while working part time and doing a co-op in industry. And claim to care about things like social justice.

You can guess why.

Obviously this only applies to certain schools, but the bias is very real.

It’s not just Brown. Harvard, Yale, Stanford.

But I can’t figure out why grade inflation at schools like that get rewarded.

 

[Goro]

It’s not just Brown. Harvard, Yale, Stanford.

But I can’t figure out why grade inflation at schools like that get rewarded.

Because you can't expect Adcom members to know the details of every college in the US as to whether they're grade deflators or inflators. That's not my job; it's YOUR job to do well, no matter where you go. And a 4.0 from Kutztown State will still get you into med school.

What people here forget about is that particular UG schools are feeders to med schools. Their grads are known product.

 

[ObjectiveBoba]

How do adcoms perceive the rigor/grade deflation at Cornell compared to other universities?

Is it seen as grade deflated/rigorous as say Princeton, UChicago, Johns Hopkins, Wash U, Berkeley?

Or is it more on the level of UPenn, Columbia etc?

Don't Corenellians get access to this data?

From Google cache:

Average number of acceptances
The number of acceptances students may see varies with the grade point average. Of those accepted, the
pattern over the past couple of years has shown students with a 3.8 or higher GPA tend to see three to
four acceptances. Those with GPAs between 3.4 and 3.8 see around one to two acceptances. Students in
the 3.2 to 3.39 range averaged fewer. This information may be used to give you some idea of the
acceptances you might see.
For 2014 matriculation, 43.4% of national first-time applicants to allopathic medical schools were
admitted while 58.5% of Cornell applicants were admitted. Of the 56.9% of Cornell applicants with a
Bachelor’s degree who were admitted to medical schools, 40.9% were accepted to one school, 25.5% to
two schools, 11.4% to three schools, 10.3% to four schools, and the remaining 10.6% were accepted to five
or more schools.​

Furthermore:

Are you competitive? When should you apply?
There are a number of resources available to help you determine the likelihood of your acceptance at a
specific school based on your GPA and MCAT. You can use national information in MSAR to get some idea
of the median GPA of accepted candidates from the previous year; however, the best information for
Cornell students is Cornell-specific data contained in the following resources.
• The 2011-2013 “Applied/Accepted” chart (see page 6). The chart may be used to estimate your
chances of admission to allopathic (M.D.) medical schools. The data does not include Cornell
undergraduates and alumni who applied to other health professional schools: osteopathy, dentistry,
optometry, podiatry, etc.
• The national matriculated/applied information, which is also given, can be useful in reviewing the
Cornell-specific charts.
• Applications and Outcomes at http://www.career.cornell.edu/resources/surveys/alumni-medical-
admissions-survey.cfm contains surveys completed on-line by recent graduates.
• Acceptance Data from Selected Medical Schools notebook contains Cornell-specific acceptance data, by
MCAT and GPA, at many medical schools. Available only in the Career Library, 103 Barnes Hall.
• Dental Careers and Predental Information has Cornell dental admissions data: GPAs and DATs.​

I suspect those are better resources than asking SDN -- just compare the GPA/MCAT grids or Cornell-specific acceptance data to national averages.

 

[puahate]

why do people worry about this so much?

 

[Goro]

why do people worry about this so much?

It's the eternal mindset of "I have a 3.3 from Cornell (or any other school/major/program). That's worth more than a 3.6 from school Y, right?"

Rarely, one of my Adcom colleagues will say "This kid has a 3.2 from [Big Name School]. That's got to account for something, right?"

We think about that for maybe a second, and then onto the waitlist that kid goes.

 

[deleted938090]

It's quite silly to make blanket statements like x college is easier than y; it depends on what classes they take.

 

[CarrotMink]

It is possible to do well no matter where you go. Cornell does a good job sending its graduates to medical schools so if you have what it takes to get in, the school will provide the resources for you to succeed. The intro classes at Cornell are a bit weed out, however, I don't think that is uncommon in any large institutions. It is common for these class to curve the median to around a B- and one standard deviation above would be one full letter grade above, so A- (take that as you will).

 

[JIMMYJOHNivy]

Hmm I think my OP has been misinterpreted.

I have a 3.97 sGPA and cGPA from Cornell but only a 517 MCAT. I’m not too concerned about getting into medical school but am not sure if my MCAT is enough for T20 schools.

So I’m wondering if my GPA would provide me with extra leverage to offset my subpar MCAT, given it’s from Cornell, a supposed “rigorous school”.


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[Toutie]

Hmm I think my OP has been misinterpreted.

I have a 3.97 sGPA and cGPA from Cornell but only a 517 MCAT. I’m not too concerned about getting into medical school but am not sure if my MCAT is enough for T20 schools.

So I’m wondering if my GPA would provide me with extra leverage to offset my subpar MCAT, given it’s from Cornell, a supposed “rigorous school”.


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ONLY a 517? If you have a 3.97 from Cornell and a 517...as long as you have EC's up to par, and you are a decent interview...you will be just fine for T20 schools.

 

[MyOdyssey]

Hmm I think my OP has been misinterpreted.

I have a 3.97 sGPA and cGPA from Cornell but only a 517 MCAT. I’m not too concerned about getting into medical school but am not sure if my MCAT is enough for T20 schools.

So I’m wondering if my GPA would provide me with extra leverage to offset my subpar MCAT, given it’s from Cornell, a supposed “rigorous school”.


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If Cornell Med favors its own (a safe assumption), you should have a shot there, no?

 

[deleted938090]

GPA is something that doesn't help you if it's reasonably high but can hurt you if it gets low. People don't seem to emphasize high GPA much at the places you're looking at: it's more of something they assume.

 

[Goro]

Hmm I think my OP has been misinterpreted.

I have a 3.97 sGPA and cGPA from Cornell but only a 517 MCAT. I’m not too concerned about getting into medical school but am not sure if my MCAT is enough for T20 schools.

So I’m wondering if my GPA would provide me with extra leverage to offset my subpar MCAT, given it’s from Cornell, a supposed “rigorous school”.


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Please enlighten us as to in what world an MCAT is "not enough for T20 schools"?

As a teaching moment, back on Earth, high GPA doesn't salvage a poor MCAR, nor vice-versa.

Jimmy, do you know what the median MCAT is for, say , Yale, UCSF or Stanford?

 

[DokterMom]

Hmm I think my OP has been misinterpreted.

I have a 3.97 sGPA and cGPA from Cornell but only a 517 MCAT. I’m not too concerned about getting into medical school but am not sure if my MCAT is enough for T20 schools.

So I’m wondering if my GPA would provide me with extra leverage to offset my subpar MCAT, given it’s from Cornell, a supposed “rigorous school”.

You're golden OP. A 3.97 from Cornell says you were "top of the heap" compared to a very rigorous cohort and demonstrates you can swim with the sharks. A 517 won't raise eyebrows either way at the Top 20s, so you're fine.

 

[JIMMYJOHNivy]

Please enlighten us as to in what world an MCAT is "not enough for T20 schools"?

As a teaching moment, back on Earth, high GPA doesn't salvage a poor MCAR, nor vice-versa.

Jimmy, do you know what the median MCAT is for, say , Yale, UCSF or Stanford?

I recall a post from LizzyM who says she has never interviewed a candidate with <517. She also says you need >129 in at least 3 sections to be competitive.

Now my MCAT is 132/126/131/128 so I’ve already broken her >129 section rule and I’m right on the border of the lowest score she’s ever interviewed.

Considering I’m just another ORM with stereotypical EC’s (few pubs, clinical experience, volunteering etc.), it seems my chances aren’t very good, so I was hoping the rigor of my alma mater (or string of A+’s) would give more weight to my GPA over my MCAT.


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[Goro]

I recall a post from LizzyM who says she has never interviewed a candidate with <517. She also says you need >129 in at least 3 sections to be competitive.

Now my MCAT is 132/126/131/128 so I’ve already broken her >129 section rule and I’m right on the border of the lowest score she’s ever interviewed.

Considering I’m just another ORM with stereotypical EC’s (few pubs, clinical experience, volunteering etc.), it seems my chances aren’t very good, so I was hoping the rigor of my alma mater would give more weight to my GPA over my MCAT.
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Dude, that's ONE school, up in the ionosphere.

4.0 automatons are a dime a dozen.

Get in a lot of service to others less fortunate than yourself. That is well looked upon.

CARS is also cut the most slack, BTW

BTW, I think you're competitive for:


Columbia
Duke
Sinai
U MI
U VA
BU
Case
Mayo
Pitt
Hofstra
Ohio State
U Cincy
USC/Keck
USF Morsani
Albert Einstein
Dartmouth
Emory
Rochester
Jefferson
Miami
U IA
U VM
Western MI
Your state school

 

[JIMMYJOHNivy]

Dude, that's ONE school, up in the ionosphere.

Like I said before, I’m not worried about getting into med school, I’m concerned with my chances at T20 schools and whether they’d be worth my application fee.

And seeing that LizzyM is an adcom at a T20 school, I’m assuming most T20 schools adhere to guidelines that don’t deviate too much from her statement.


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[Goro]

Like I said before, I’m not worried about getting into med school, I’m concerned with my chances at T20 schools and whether they’d be worth my application fee.

And seeing that LizzyM is an adcom at a T20 school, I’m assuming most T20 schools adhere to guidelines that don’t deviate too much from her statement.


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Invest in MSAR and rule out schools where your CARS score is at or < the 10th %ile.

 

[JIMMYJOHNivy]

Dude, that's ONE school, up in the ionosphere.

4.0 automatons are a dime a dozen.

Get in a lot of service to others less fortunate than yourself. That is well looked upon.

CARS is also cut the most slack, BTW

BTW, I think you're competitive for:


Columbia
Duke
Sinai
U MI
U VA
BU
Case
Mayo
Pitt
Hofstra
Ohio State
U Cincy
USC/Keck
USF Morsani
Albert Einstein
Dartmouth
Emory
Rochester
Jefferson
Miami
U IA
U VM
Western MI
Your state school

Haha...so it looks like I’m not competitive for Yale, Stanford or UCSF?

Also btw, I might be paranoid for asking this, but will a speeding ticket harm my application in any way shape or form?


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[MyOdyssey]

Dude, that's ONE school, up in the ionosphere.

4.0 automatons are a dime a dozen.

Get in a lot of service to others less fortunate than yourself. That is well looked upon.

CARS is also cut the most slack, BTW

BTW, I think you're competitive for:


Columbia
Duke
Sinai
U MI
U VA
BU
Case
Mayo
Pitt
Hofstra
Ohio State
U Cincy
USC/Keck
USF Morsani
Albert Einstein
Dartmouth
Emory
Rochester
Jefferson
Miami
U IA
U VM
Western MI
Your state school

So OP is competitive for Columbia but not Cornell even though s/he’s a Cornellian?

 

[Goro]

Haha...so it looks like I’m not competitive for Yale, Stanford or UCSF?

Also btw, I might be paranoid for asking this, but will a speeding ticket harm my application in any way shape or form?


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So few people get into UCSF from outside CA that I can't recommend UCSF or UCLA unless you're a superstar.

Speeding ticket won't hurt at all.

 

[DrFortiusNatando]

I am advising two premeds from an IVY UG now. Comparable stats - Lizzy M about 78-80, research, EC's etc. The one with west coast residency status has received interviews at all T20-type west coast med schools, (and non-east coast T20 places), but only 2 from east coast top schools (both ivies). The one from the east coast has received interviews at almost all T20 east coast med schools, but NO west coast med schools. Obviously some major yield protection going on, even though, unbenownst to the adcoms, these two want to attend a school in the same city and would therefore cross their original coasts to be together.

So for OP, if east coast residency, would skip Stanford, UCSF, USC, UCLA and maybe consider adding Drexel, Brown, Tufts if an east coast city location is important.

Oh, and as an adcom member, Princeton used to be the only school that we officially recognized as having grade deflation. Cornell may give fewer A's than Harvard, but there was no specific recognition of this in admissions decisions.

 

[DoctorSnow]

This will vary depending on school. At my orientation our dean straight up told us that they add/subtract points from GPA based on our UG institution. Agree with the last sentence though. US schools generally don't admit people they don't think will make it.

I agree with this. Our state school's adcom has said they view applicants from my private school with a more lenient description of our GPA. Our last class had an average matriculant GPA of 3.5 compared to the school's average GPA of 3.78.

 

[LizzyM]

Dude, that's ONE school, up in the ionosphere.

True. I'm at just one school. And our MCAT "floor" is not something I have any say about (it comes dictated from above). I've seen my general rule broken a few times this year but for the most part it holds true.

With a high GPA from a school known for its academic rigor and a MCAT that is well above 510, the OP should have a good shot at 17 of the top 20 based on numbers alone. At that point what separates the interviewed from the non-interviewed is ECs and a bit of luck.

 

[JIMMYJOHNivy]

True. I'm at just one school. And our MCAT "floor" is not something I have any say about (it comes dictated from above). I've seen my general rule broken a few times this year but for the most part it holds true.

With a high GPA from a school known for its academic rigor and a MCAT that is well above 510, the OP should have a good shot at 17 of the top 20 based on numbers alone. At that point what separates the interviewed from the non-interviewed is ECs and a bit of luck.

So in my case, I assume school rigor does come into play then?

And how can you be so sure that other schools don’t have such a MCAT floor that you’re able to say I have a shot at 17/20 top schools?


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[MacBee]

based on numbers alone

And how can you be so sure that other schools don’t have such a MCAT floor

This is what MSAR is for.

 

[OneTwoThreeFour]

So in my case, I assume school rigor does come into play then?

And how can you be so sure that other schools don’t have such a MCAT floor that you’re able to say I have a shot at 17/20 top schools?


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Ten of them might have MCAT floors. All of them might. Nobody is going to know. Either apply to them or don't, 100 bucks shouldn't be a deterrent to apply to schools you've already had multiple adcom members say you are competitive for. As someone who was also on the AdCom for a top 20, your stats certainly will not preclude you from an interview but since the MCAT is <520 you better have other stuff. Also, we did not have a score floor-every app got eyeballs. I interviewed 505s and 528s.

As to the original question, I gave a fudge factor to Penn, Princeton, and MIT. Everything else was lumped together more or less.

 

[DokterMom]

Of course it's hard to cry "grade deflation" convincingly when OP's sitting on a 3.97...

 

[JIMMYJOHNivy]

Ten of them might have MCAT floors. All of them might. Nobody is going to know. Either apply to them or don't, 100 bucks shouldn't be a deterrent to apply to schools you've already had multiple adcom members say you are competitive for. As someone who was also on the AdCom for a top 20, your stats certainly will not preclude you from an interview but since the MCAT is <520 you better have other stuff. Also, we did not have a score floor-every app got eyeballs. I interviewed 505s and 528s.

As to the original question, I gave a fudge factor to Penn, Princeton, and MIT. Everything else was lumped together more or less.

By other stuff what do you mean?

I have 2 pubs, ~250 hours volunteering and 300 hours clinical experience. Nothing really special apart from the basics.

Is that enough “other stuff”?


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[musicmasta1996]

As a Cornell grad, I'm frankly a little embarrassed by this post. How are you even thinking about grade deflation if you a 3.97? Do you want them to round you up to 4? And then giving generic application information as if somehow people on SDN will turn that into a concrete guarantee that you'll get into a top 20. I get that this process makes people a little neurotic, but for God's sake man, have a little self-awareness and self-control. It will take you far in medical school and life in general.

FWIW, I graduated with a 3.6 from Cornell and have 7 IIs, with multiple from the top 20s.

 

[MyOdyssey]

Ten of them might have MCAT floors. All of them might. Nobody is going to know. Either apply to them or don't, 100 bucks shouldn't be a deterrent to apply to schools you've already had multiple adcom members say you are competitive for. As someone who was also on the AdCom for a top 20, your stats certainly will not preclude you from an interview but since the MCAT is <520 you better have other stuff. Also, we did not have a score floor-every app got eyeballs. I interviewed 505s and 528s.

As to the original question, I gave a fudge factor to Penn, Princeton, and MIT. Everything else was lumped together more or less.

From the perspective of a T-20, is exceptional research considered a big plus or is it too common in the T-20 applicant pool and/or too geeky to be a big plus factor?

 

[Lucca]

By other stuff what do you mean?

I have 2 pubs, ~250 hours volunteering and 300 hours clinical experience. Nothing really special apart from the basics.

Is that enough “other stuff”?


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That’s plenty to be competitive at the T20 on paper. The rest is on you to sell yourself well on the written portions of your app and to select good letter writers.