counter-transference

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masterofmonkeys

Angy Old Man
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So this is something that's been bothering me a lot recently. I have a great deal of negative counter-transference to pain patients. I understand exactly why. My medical records read like those of your typical intractable pain patient. But I've never touched a narcotic. And I manage to not only stay active, but do a credible imitation of a strength athlete.

I could write a novella on the underlying sources of it. From disdain at their choice to let NMSK (neuromusculoskeletal) dysfunction rule their lives. To resentment at their (often successful) attempts to get pity, while my struggle often goes unappreciated or even doubted by people who refuse to believe I do what I do despite my physical limitations (which lie beneath the skin). To annoyance at the entire medical profession that chooses to focus on legitimizing and emphasizing the psychological and subjective experience of pain over treating underlying dysfunction, leaving guys like me in the lurch because our profession has never turned our resources both academic and clinical to maximizing of function and minimization of dysfunction.

Logically, I can acknowledge the fact that we all make choices, and that there are costs and benefits to each path one can take. I believe that the costs of hours in the gym, faking it until I puke or almost pass out, reading kinesiology and exercise phys literature to see if I can develop my own physical therapy, using myself as a lab rat, and constantly sore muscles instead of arthralgia and radiculopathy, are far outweighed by the benefits of remaining active and having a shot at a relatively normal life. And I can see why others might choose a path of lesser resistance. Overcoming dysfunction is a full-time job. The pay is sporadic and often meager, and it seems like there are more and more bills due every day.

But all that said, every time I encounter a pain patient, the only thing that runs through my head is the Lance Armstrong quote from Dodgeball.

I do my conscious best not to let my feelings come to the surface. And for an MS4 I'd say I'm pretty darn good at that. But I'm sure unconsciously it still affects my patient interactions.

I'm also concerned because, being interested in mind-body as I am, and with special interest in the psychology of rehabilitation, I'm afraid I might never approach things as objectively and openly as would be needed.

On the flip side, I think my experiences make me a perfect candidate to attempt to reform the way medicine, as a profession deals with pain. You can't treat pain because there's no such thing as 'pain disease' (well, mostly there isn't). Only underlying dysfunction which leads to pain. You can on the other hand, alter the way we process the signal of pain cognitively and emotionally. And ultimately, pain is an adaptive process, a signal of the fact that something isn't quite right. By using mindfulness and cognitive-behavioral techniques, I believe we can not only reduce the negative impacts of pain on individuals, but also better utilize its positive qualities in rehabilitation.

As a personal trainer I use cognitive-behavioral techniques for motivation (e.g. "exercise makes me tired." "of course it does, you have no work capacity. But if you exercise, you'll find you build your work capacity and end up having more energy for every day things."). And use mindfulness techniques for rehab/prehab (i.e. lightweight exercises with the focus not on weight, sets, or reps, but feeling your body go through the healthy motion, rather than the dysfunctional one, and learning to move every day in all activities in a biomechanically correct way).

Anyway, long rambling rant. What I'm getting at, is, given that I understand the reasons for my counter-transference (although I'm sure therapy will increase it further), and that ultimately I feel that my perspective is justified (and don't think that will change), I'm concerned that I may never be able to do justice to the class of patients I'm most interested in working with. And I also wonder if maybe my feelings of what I can bring to 'rehabilitation psychiatry' (for lack of a better word), are wrongly bound up in a feeling of self-importance.

Blah.
 
MoM - my sympathies with your chr pain. Your reluctance to give up and your victory in the ongoing struggle with pain sound admirable. It does sound, though, that there are some issues that you will have to work through in your professional life.

Now, these are just my thoughts and opinions - take them as such.

1) As you know, there is a good chance you will have to undergo therapy yourself in psych residency, so there will probably be good opportunities to expore this issue further in the safe environment. You might just put this problem on the back burner at present - unless this is the only reason you chose psych, and you are getting cold feet right now.
2) On the other hand, why wait until residency? Have you tried to talk this through with a counsellor/therapist in your medical school? This might be a good step forward.
3) Some experts say it is best not to treat patients with the same problem that you have/have had. This is because your response to such patients might be overly empathic, and this not only may interfere with the therapeutic relationship, but may also have a negative effect on your own mental health. So...
4) Are there other areas of psychiatry you are interested in, or did you specifically choose the field to work with chr pain patients?

Once again, these are just my random thoughts...Good luck - and well done.
 
3) Some experts say it is best not to treat patients with the same problem that you have/have had. This is because your response to such patients might be overly empathic, and this not only may interfere with the therapeutic relationship, but may also have a negative effect on your own mental health.
There is also the risk (maybe more applicable here, from MoM's post) that you will constantly use your personal experience as a yardstick that you will hold your patient's to. You'll have very strong bias before the patient even opens their mouth and will quite possibly be overly critical and judgmental.
 
There is also the risk (maybe more applicable here, from MoM's post) that you will constantly use your personal experience as a yardstick that you will hold your patient's to. You'll have very strong bias before the patient even opens their mouth and will quite possibly be overly critical and judgmental.

The above is why many people choose not to work in an area with which they have a personal connection. Issues of counter-transference will come up from time to time, regardless of the pt. population, but willingly placing yourself in a position to run into these people on a daily basis may put you at risk professionally (as notdeadyet noted). I have seen this issue pop up a lot in detox/substance abuse treatment, and unfortunately many people ignore the red flags and forge ahead.

Do you have a mentor or trusted faculty/preceptor that you can talk to about this?
 
Thanks for the replies. This is far from my only interest in psych. Psych was one of my top three considerations for jobs for 10 years now. And the top consideration by the time I entered my third year of college. My interest in psych issues in chronic pain and physical rehabilitation are much younger, spurred by a psych mentor who said I could bring a lot of understanding to the field, due to my position of academic knowledge of neuroscience, exercise sciences, and psych, and my personal firsthand knowledge of being a chronic pain patient (god I hate that phrase). My other psych mentors tended to voice the same opinions and all felt that due to my perspective on the issue, counter-transference could be easily managed.

I definitely intend to undergo therapy while I'm a psych resident. It seems silly not to. For this reason and the same reasons its recommended for all psych residents.

As for the point about avoiding fields you have personal experience in, I actually agree, and have made similar statemetns in this forum lol. I see classmates going into peds hem/onc, peds endo, cardiology, ortho, psych, etc based on personal experience and I always raise an eyebrow. Call me a hypocrite.

As I said though, I think that the way that able-bodied physicians approach pain is lunacy. I'd like to see that change. And I'd like to be a part of it.

I think one thing that works in my favor is that I do have experience with pain patients and healthy individuals as a trainer (most of whom fall well short of my personal yardstick for effort), and I've acquitted myself pretty darn well. I think it's because at the end of the day I value the quality of motivation more than I do the quantity. And I see my role as one of helping instill motivation in others more than anything. *shrug*

If I feel like I can't approach these patients in a therapeutically effective manner, and I decide not to focus on these issues in my career, that still leaves a whole ton of interest in psych. This is really only a subset of my interest in the mind-physical health-exercise-nutrition connection.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback. It's appreciated.
 
Given the prevelance of psych diagnoses, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a psychiatrist who hasn't had at least some psych issue at some time.
 
Matching at a program with excellent psychodynamic supervision and undergoing your own psychotherapy will both help you manage your countertransference. You may come to the realization that these patients are too close to home for you to deal with every day or you may not - given your passion for the subject it's certainly worth trying.
 
Given the prevelance of psych diagnoses, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a psychiatrist who hasn't had at least some psych issue at some time.

Conversely, given the comorbidity of chronic pain and psych disorders, the likelihood of being able to practice psych without having to deal with chronic pain patients is almost zero!
 
Given the prevelance of psych diagnoses, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a psychiatrist who hasn't had at least some psych issue at some time.

I agree, but if you suffered from anorexia in adolescence, it probably would not be the wisest move to specialise in eating disorders (for example).
 
Conversely, given the comorbidity of chronic pain and psych disorders, the likelihood of being able to practice psych without having to deal with chronic pain patients is almost zero!
Sad, but true.
 
I agree, but if you suffered from anorexia in adolescence, it probably would not be the wisest move to specialise in eating disorders (for example).

I agree in general.

But to play devil's advocate - I've worked with several addictionologists who were themselves addicts. When they shared this with their patients I think it helped to cut through the patient's denial. When someone in denial can self-identify with another (let alone their physician!), I think they can let their guard down and admit they have a problem. I believe this is one reason AA/NA work as well as they do - addicts can identify with others, and this process peels back the layers of denial.
 
I agree in general.

But to play devil's advocate - I've worked with several addictionologists who were themselves addicts. When they shared this with their patients I think it helped to cut through the patient's denial. When someone in denial can self-identify with another (let alone their physician!), I think they can let their guard down and admit they have a problem. I believe this is one reason AA/NA work as well as they do - addicts can identify with others, and this process peels back the layers of denial.

This is actually a fallacy. AA has the same success/relapse rate as other treatment methods. Much like smoking cessation, a combined approach towards abstinence yields a better result than a singular approach, regardless if one of the methods is AA.

--

As for having former addicts work with addicts.....I'd challenge that the benefit (quicker bond in the therapeutic relationship) is outweighed by the potential counter-transference issues, considering there are alternatives to foster the TR that don't include some of the C-T issues.
 
This is actually a fallacy. AA has the same success/relapse rate as other treatment methods. Much like smoking cessation, a combined approach towards abstinence yields a better result than a singular approach, regardless if one of the methods is AA.

--

As for having former addicts work with addicts.....I'd challenge that the benefit (quicker bond in the therapeutic relationship) is outweighed by the potential counter-transference issues, considering there are alternatives to foster the TR that don't include some of the C-T issues.

read: as well as they do. . . (not: better than everything else)
 
As for having former addicts work with addicts.....I'd challenge that the benefit (quicker bond in the therapeutic relationship) is outweighed by the potential counter-transference issues, considering there are alternatives to foster the TR that don't include some of the C-T issues.

I've seen addict inpatients have to beg for a Tylenol from a recovering nurse. Damn, they were mean.
 
As for the point about avoiding fields you have personal experience in, I actually agree, and have made similar statemetns in this forum lol. I see classmates going into peds hem/onc, peds endo, cardiology, ortho, psych, etc based on personal experience and I always raise an eyebrow. Call me a hypocrite.

Take this to a logical extreme, and the world will have no pediatricians at all.

Wait, I correct myself. The world will have SOME pediatricians. There are some people who I swear, must have been born crotchety old grown ups!

I have seen the comments you're referring to. Ok, let me just say, sometimes it gets a little frightening, the amount of stigma that is out there in the medical world, against not only psychiatric illnesses but also medical illnesses. (I'm not referring to your posts, MOM, just to the concept. I'm glad you brought up the topic.) If people think they can escape illness they're wrong. It's not up to you, what you'll get. You could go into a field, and THEN get an illness that is central to that field. Most diseases have their onset later in life, after all. Imagine saying to people, if you think you'll get Parkinsons, you shouldn't go into neurology. I understand the larger point here, but to make a big deal out of avoiding a certain illness, well, illness gets people whether they like it or not sometimes.
 
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I've seen psychiatrists with strong borderline traits treating patients with borderline personalities, and passive-aggressive (or other personality disordered) psychiatrists treating the worried well. They tend to develop deeper and more complicated therapeutic relationships initially. Patients usually like it at first, but in the long run, the transference and counter-transference issues become problematic. Sometimes, even with supervision. This is a tough one...
 
I don't know that we all specialize in our deficits. As a CL doc I am called to see a lot of aggressive, confrontational... um, never mind. 😳
 
If people think they can escape illness they're wrong. It's not up to you, what you'll get. You could go into a field, and THEN get an illness that is central to that field. Most diseases have their onset later in life, after all. Imagine saying to people, if you think you'll get Parkinsons, you shouldn't go into neurology. I understand the larger point here, but to make a big deal out of avoiding a certain illness, well, illness gets people whether they like it or not sometimes.
This is true, but it is one thing to develop an illness that may be related to your field when you are already a trained specialist in the field...making your career choice based on the fact that you have a certain illness is slightly different.

Besides, psychiatry is VERY different from all other specialties in that respect. A patient undergoing THR may actually benefit if his orthopod has experienced some musculoskeletal condition; a neurologist having personal experience of MND may have some insights into the illness that might benefit the patient - I do not know. The fact is that physical illness does not affect the core of our personality quite to the same extent as mental illness does. So, I see no problem when a survivor of childhood leukemia goes into hem-onc; but a borderline therapist treating borderline patient????
 
Besides, psychiatry is VERY different from all other specialties in that respect. A patient undergoing THR may actually benefit if his orthopod has experienced some musculoskeletal condition; a neurologist having personal experience of MND may have some insights into the illness that might benefit the patient - I do not know. The fact is that physical illness does not affect the core of our personality quite to the same extent as mental illness does. So, I see no problem when a survivor of childhood leukemia goes into hem-onc; but a borderline therapist treating borderline patient????

Wouldn't a borderline therapist treating ANYONE be an example of physician impairment? Shouldn't such a physician qualify for intervention that could lead to A) the treatment of their illness (in this case, DBT) and B) assurance that they are not a threat to patients? There have been other threads about this topic, but I thought that in most places, if a physician suffers from a medical or mental health problem that could affect their ability to care for patients, then they are required to indicate that on medical licensing application forms along the way. Also, it seems like nowadays we are often told that if a physician is impaired, that the treatment they are offered should include the chance to be rehabilitated. So, unless those nice compassionate ideas are just lip service, then this shouldn't be a problem--unless the disease is intractable, in which case, it's unlikely the person got all the way through med school in the first place.

If this person lacked insight into their borderline personality DO, then that wouldn't have been the basis for their career choice.

So, hasn't the system broken down if we have symptomatic borderline (or narcissistic or schizoid) doctors treating anyone? Either my understanding of the concepts is wrong, or the system is not working correctly.

Now, an orthopedic surgeon, I would think, should be in pretty decent shape musculoskeletally, since they do some demanding physical work. A THR is pretty rugged. I'm not sure I want the person replacing my hip to be wincing with tendonitis or carpal tunnel and maybe pounding things in not quite hard enough because of that. Nor do I want my neurosurgeon to have a seizure in the OR while he/she is fixing my shunt.

If they USED to have those things--how is that any different from a therapist who USED to be borderline?

I have even heard it argued that REI specialists will offend/hurt their patients if they are visibly pregnant.
 
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Most of the counter-transference I encountered I overcame by my 2nd year.

Of course it still happens, we're all human, but by 3rd year, most of the issues that I found unsettling I've seen several times, got used to it better, or found better ways to handle it.

As for pain patients, my frustrations with those cases usually was not with the patient but the other doctors involved in their care--either too much prescriptions for pain meds &/or benzos that was not justified by objective measures, or the other doctor would be wanting me to determine if the person's medical condition justified the use of pain meds--something that's really in their court not ours. I'd tell them that, and they'd get upset with me for not shouldering a responsibility that was theirs.

The harder cases I had were with cluster B patients with some type of prescription abuse or dependence that was enabled by their PCP. Its hard telling such a patient that they do not need a constant supply of xanax or percocet when their PCP will always be giving it to them. I'd contact the PCP, and either would get no response after several attempts or a "don't tell me how to do my practice" comment when I'd comment that the psychiatrist if involved should be handling the psychiatric issues.
 
To do well with your patients you must like them. You need some Rogerian Unconditional Positive Regard for them. Remember that if they are "difficult," likely others failing them caused this.

As such, your counter transference is good for one thing, namely indicating any Axis II conditions. But if you start acting out your counter-transference against your patients, then you need to step back and asking yourself why you can't let it go, possibly with the help of a therapist.

But to blame the patients for being "bad," that is to punish them for the illness others inflicted on them. Power struggles with patients that are mentally ill doesn't reflect well on the provider's maturity, after all.

As for chronic pain, the worst that can happen for a patient is treatment by an unexperienced provider that ramps up doses until they get cold feet and then abruptly cut off the patient. The resulting rebound is what then get them through your door, having to pick up the pieces. That's not the patient's fault; rather that of a physician treating outside of their scope, outside of where they have studied enough to know what they are doing.
 
Agree, never act out in front of a patient.

However setting limits which is something that often needs to be done can sometimes be interpreted as punishment by others, though it is not a punishment.
 
So, I see no problem when a survivor of childhood leukemia goes into hem-onc; but a borderline therapist treating borderline patient????

I should clarify... the cases I've seen involved psychiatrists that did not meet criteria for the full blown personality disorders at the time of treatment. I can't say whether they received a diagnosis in the past, but I sort of doubt it.
 
I've noticed it tended to be the mental health professionals with the most Axis II Cluster B traits that had the least amount of tolerance for a patient with a Cluster B disorder.

I've noticed that Cluster B-histrionic, narcicisstic or borderline people either have very dramatic problems from the beginning, or will have a love fest, which eventually will degrade into dramatic problems in a short period of time.

Therapists with a Cluster B have a hard time dealing with their own emotions, and if any emotions are placed on the patient, well its not exactly a safe situation.

Me, I used to get bugged by seeing the revolving door ones, and then seeing nothing being done on an administrative level to deal with the problem. My pet peeve wasn't the Cluster B, it was the lack of effectiveness at dealing with the problem that occurred over & over & over again because "professionals" were willing to pass the buck.

Mentioned a little bit of it in the conditional suicidality thread.

Actually by 3rd year, I started liking Cluster B patients because they posed the most amount of challenge...that is until now. I got a unit full of them, and I end up working about 5-10 hrs a week overtime that I'm not getting paid for becuase they keep citing "doctor its a medical emergency, you have to see me!", then when I see them, the complaint is about not getting strawberry jello. Hey if I got paid, I wouldn't mind, but when you get it multiple times a day, it wastes about 1-2 hrs a day of your time.
 
Wouldn't a borderline therapist treating ANYONE be an example of physician impairment?

It would. I have seen this happen. Just because something SHOULD be done, does not mean it IS done.

So, unless those nice compassionate ideas are just lip service, then this shouldn't be a problem--unless the disease is intractable, in which case, it's unlikely the person got all the way through med school in the first place.

If this person lacked insight into their borderline personality DO, then that wouldn't have been the basis for their career choice.

So, hasn't the system broken down if we have symptomatic borderline (or narcissistic or schizoid) doctors treating anyone? Either my understanding of the concepts is wrong, or the system is not working correctly.

There ARE many doctors with schizoid, narcissistic, obsessive-compulsive - and yes, even borderline - personality traits out there. Remember, you can have certain personality traits, but as long as you can function, you would not have the personality disorder, by definition. Regardless, it could still interfere with your professional performance, should you choose to go into psychiatry (on the other hand, I see nothing wrong with, say, a pathologist/radiologist/orthopod/and even internist being a bit obsessive-compulsive, or even schizoid...😉)

Now, an orthopedic surgeon, I would think, should be in pretty decent shape musculoskeletally, since they do some demanding physical work. A THR is pretty rugged. I'm not sure I want the person replacing my hip to be wincing with tendonitis or carpal tunnel and maybe pounding things in not quite hard enough because of that. Nor do I want my neurosurgeon to have a seizure in the OR while he/she is fixing my shunt.

If they USED to have those things--how is that any different from a therapist who USED to be borderline?
It is different, because (again, by definition) personality traits are enduring patterns of behaviour. And I doubt any personality disorder can be "cured", so can one really say, "I USED to have borderline personality disorder, but now I am a perfectly well-adjusted individual in total control of my emotions and my life"? I do not know, but I would be surprised.

I have even heard it argued that REI specialists will offend/hurt their patients if they are visibly pregnant.
What is REI?
 
Wouldn't a borderline therapist treating ANYONE be an example of physician impairment?

Agree with Babypsychedoc. This is a controversial issue. Several do not want to hold a disorder against a person when getting into residency training. When it comes to mental health it also becomes particularly grey.

Another aspect is most places tend to judge very much on test scores, and don't have the oppurtunity to actually see that person in work. As for letters of reccomendation, I've seen several people write very diplomatically worded letters that didn't clarify the person's problems, partly out of decorum, partly out of a fear that the person will sue them if they find out about a negative LOR, and partly because they fear they will work with that person in the future and don't want a written record that the person may later discover.
 
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