COVID-19

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We have an 18 year old obese kid in the ICU who presented with cough, SOB, hypoxia and CP. CXR showed bilateral but asymmetric PNA and his ECG showed an impressive STEMI. CTA was negative for PE and he was given TPA because he was too big for cath. Troponin trended up to 30. COVID returned positive today...

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We have an 18 year old obese kid in the ICU who presented with cough, SOB, hypoxia and CP. CXR showed bilateral but asymmetric PNA and his ECG showed an impressive STEMI. CTA was negative for PE and he was given TPA because he was too big for cath. Troponin trended up to 30. COVID returned positive today...
That’s not an impressive troponin for STEMI. Sometimes (from what I hear and read), the COVID can give people myocarditis, which I think would be hard to differentiate from STEMI without cath.
 
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That’s not an impressive troponin for STEMI.

It’s now 70.

Initial TTE limited due to obesity. Cards thinks most likely myocarditis but wants to consider cath once he is more stable...now intubated with a phenotype more consistent with typical ARDS (poor compliance)
 
It’s now 70.

Initial TTE limited due to obesity. Cards thinks most likely myocarditis but wants to consider cath once he is more stable...now intubated with a phenotype more consistent with typical ARDS (poor compliance)
Is cards recommending anti inflammatories? Colchicine? Steroids? IvIg?

asking cuz I’m frequently seeing trop elevations (which normally I wouldn’t even check trop but our ID guys want them for who knows what reason)
 
Is cards recommending anti inflammatories? Colchicine? Steroids? IvIg?

asking cuz I’m frequently seeing trop elevations (which normally I wouldn’t even check trop but our ID guys want them for who knows what reason)

Cards has no specific recommendations outside of ASA and heparin. They note that it would be odd for an 18 yr old to have ACS and COVID-19. However, he is 400 lbs and had some improvements in his ECG after tPA.
 
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We have an 18 year old obese kid in the ICU who presented with cough, SOB, hypoxia and CP. CXR showed bilateral but asymmetric PNA and his ECG showed an impressive STEMI. CTA was negative for PE and he was given TPA because he was too big for cath. Troponin trended up to 30. COVID returned positive today...

****
 
It’s now 70.

Initial TTE limited due to obesity. Cards thinks most likely myocarditis but wants to consider cath once he is more stable...now intubated with a phenotype more consistent with typical ARDS (poor compliance)

if he’s a big guy could be that belly and lots of weight over his chest - I’d try to get an esophageal ballon in him to get better sense of the transpulmonary pressures
 
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Between my group and our hospitalist team I am seeing a lot of variability in obtaining/trending the "COVID Labs" such as LD/Ferritin/Diner/CRP. I've seen some observational data from the Wuhan group detailing an association between a significantly elevated dimer as well as LDH in the non-survivors...but both were elevated in around 30-50% of the survivors as well.

Is anyone here utilizing these labs in a prognostic fashion or to any clinical utility that has a benefit patient outcome? This question does not include any who are collecting these data for research purposes.

Curious if we're just creating more iatrogenic anemia than anything else...

We're trending them daily in tubed patients. In a few instances when they were sky-high, we gave Tocilizumab. I'm not sure that the Toci did anything for most patients, but it made the inflammatory markers look better (that's what happens when you take out IL-6). One patient was hemodynamically unstable and got better after Toci (could just be a coincidence) and eventually got extubated. It does seem that markers trend down as patients improve. I'm not sure trending the markers has generally added much to other clinical data however.
 
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One of the reasons I haven't been jumping on any band wagons at the moment. Seems unusual that these intubated critically ill patients aren't on some kind of prophylaxis.

Little outside of my knowledge base here...the post mortems they performed demonstrated some platelet aggregation and microthrombosis in distal pulmonary vasculature, what is the likelihood that this represents coagulation intrinsic to the PV itself versus embolism from elsewhere?

Also any thoughts on this contributing to the underlying hypoxemia that is being seen? So many competing theories and people seem fairly established in their camps of HAPEish phenotype vs microthrombosis vs hemoglobinopathy vs whatever. It's some great physiologic food for thought for sure.

We need more path, lungs, kidneys, heart etc to figure out what is going on. We can't get our pathologists here to autopsy so far.
Here's the first published path report in English, per this predominant finding was DAD. I think China was reporting a TMA-like process in kidneys.


Another path series reporting similar findings:

 
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if he’s a big guy could be that belly and lots of weight over his chest - I’d try to get an esophageal ballon in him to get better sense of the transpulmonary pressures

He’s not my patient. I was simply asked to weigh-in on his ECG.

However, I tend to agree and think that all obese ARDS patients deserve measurement of their pleural pressure so that transpulmonary driving pressure can be better assessed. Without it, I feel that we‘re “winging it” with PEEP titrations and estimations of compliance that are confounded when people start seeing high driving pressures. I feel that I’m a minority voice as esophageal measurements are not in the institutional DNA...yet.
 
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Maybe it's just because I'm a lung doc, but I'm kind of surprised they thought this was something that needed to be said explicitly
Maybe because he wanted to point out the dogma of early intubation in pneumonias.

As an anesthesiologist, I've had bad experiences with pulm-CCM docs, where they insisted that a still decent-looking patient be intubated because they didn't like the numbers. I have a pediatrician in my family who has taught me to always look at the patient (happy or in distress), so to me the article seems intuitive, but many people have been trained knee-jerk, and are very dismissive about the risks of intubation/MV. And it shows in the way they treat Covid-19.

I don't know about your experience, but I hear dogmas frequently when I am in the ICU. Both from trainees and from attending physicians (mostly surgeons). If this then that. Some people just can't resist the urge to DO something.
 
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"The surest way to increase COVID-19 mortality is liberal use of intubation and mechanical ventilation" - Tobin

That should apply to every ICU patient, and to many interventions (e.g. fluids, blood, antibiotics, lines, tubes etc.). I am beginning to reach the conclusion that people who do a lot of things to their patients are actually bad/insecure doctors.

I would put a "first do no harm" reminder next to every "don't forget to wash your hands" one.
 
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That should apply to every ICU patient, and to many interventions (e.g. fluids, blood, antibiotics).

Avoiding the urge to do stuff because it "makes sense" is important. Probably more appropriate in the other thread where we have the intern advocating for experimental therapies.
 
Maybe because he wanted to point out the dogma of early intubation in pneumonias.

As an anesthesiologist, I've had bad experiences with pulm-CCM docs, where they insisted that a still decent-looking patient be intubated because they didn't like the numbers. I have a pediatrician in my family who has taught me to always look at the patient (happy or in distress), so to me the article seems intuitive, but many people have been trained knee-jerk. And it shows in the way they treat Covid-19.

I don't know about your experience, but I hear dogmas almost every day when I am in the ICU. Both from trainees and from attending physicians.

Well. Of course you should be treating patients and I'm not interested in this turning into a crap on any certain specialty discussion (everyone can come up with a story of: [insert specialty X] did this [very stupid thing Y] - rinse repeat).

Numbers do have meaning in context. One of the example given in the article is the asthma patient with low sats which we only see when things are definitely going the wrong direction (though this isn't necessarily an indication for intubation in asthma, as in asthma, the tube in bad asthma is usually the beginning of the problems, not the end).

"Early intubation" (which has never really been spelled out specifically) has been the recommendation coming from many folks all over the world, at least early on in this pandemic and while they actually still had vents. I think people thought they solved some issues, most notable the aerosolization issues you may have with other modes of non-invassive oxygenation or ventilation, and also early on the experience seemed to be that once patients got so hypoxic they ended up intubated anyway. I'm currently a worshiper in the church that usual ARDSnet settings are wrong in patients with normal lung compliance, which probably represents ~70% of the intubated COVID19 patients (IIRC correctly from Gattononi's recent article) and obviously if you do have classic ARDS physiology you need to treat like ARDS. I am suspicious that this "early intubation" of many patients AND THEN placing them on classic ARDSnet setting have caused unnecessary harm. It's fog or war though - no that anyone is "bad". I have had a lot of success with CPAP (often intermittent exchanged with High flow) and sitting up in a chair in patients that many of the "expert opinions" would have suggested I "early intubate"

Dogma is what it is, and just because it is dogma doesn't always necessarily mean it is wrong. It's a collection of wisdom in an area where we basically do not have good data on basically anything. I think critical care physicians tend to live in a world of confirmation bias where we have opinions, often very strong and often informed by experience, and we tend to dismiss data contrary to it very easily and support data supporting very easy and then rationalize it as "we aren't going along with dogma" or somewhat cherry picking the available EBM that does support our opinion, all the while believing we are out there doing "god's work" a bit better than the next guy. Though it's also hard to have too much humility in a calling that requires us to make HARD decisions and make those decisions in the absent of the very good data that many specialties are flooded with. Good decisions. "Bad" decisions. The only real crime is refusing to make a decision at all in these cases. We all do the best we can with what we have available.
 
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Avoiding the urge to do stuff because it "makes sense" is important. Probably more appropriate in the other thread where we have the intern advocating for experimental therapies.
I don't know. I feel saddened every time any physician forgets about "first do no harm". I don't think it's as much defensive medicine as it is bad habits instilled during training. People will get criticized much more for not doing anything than for doing something, anything.
 
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That should apply to every ICU patient, and to many interventions (e.g. fluids, blood, antibiotics, lines, tubes etc.). I am beginning to reach the conclusion that people who do a lot of things to their patients are actually bad/insecure doctors.

I would put a "first do no harm" reminder next to every "don't forget to wash your hands" one.

I will sometimes tell my residents that we are going to VERY aggressively do nothing more than what we are doing.
 
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I always say making an active, well thought out decision to NOT do something is a very critical decision.
I always say the reason to do a critical care fellowship is to learn not what one should do in the ICU, but what one shouldn't.
 
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That should apply to every ICU patient, and to many interventions (e.g. fluids, blood, antibiotics, lines, tubes etc.). I am beginning to reach the conclusion that people who do a lot of things to their patients are actually bad/insecure doctors.

I would put a "first do no harm" reminder next to every "don't forget to wash your hands" one.

Avoiding the urge to do stuff because it "makes sense" is important. Probably more appropriate in the other thread where we have the intern advocating for experimental therapies.


And the congregation said amen.
 
And the congregation said amen.
Sorry about the rant, I know I am preaching to the choir here. But, maybe, these discussions can educate some trainees, or some non-intensivists covering Covid-19 patients.
 
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Sorry about the rant, I know I am preaching to the choir here. But, maybe, these discussions can educate some trainees, or some non-intensivists covering Covid-19 patients.

You might be preaching to the choir, but don't think others aren't listening/watching. I'm an OMS-1, unsure of exactly what I want to do, but leaning heavily towards rural FM...I'm watching, I'm listening, I'm soaking it all in. How current physicians are thinking about this virus, how they're treating it, and how they're interacting with colleagues when they disagree are all of very great importance to me. I might not be far enough along in my education to understand half of what is being discussed on this thread, but I'm still gleaning valuable information. Thank you, and all the others, for being sources of education and value.

I'm going to go back to my med student corner now.
 
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Dogma is what it is, and just because it is dogma doesn't always necessarily mean it is wrong. It's a collection of wisdom in an area where we basically do not have good data on basically anything. I think critical care physicians tend to live in a world of confirmation bias where we have opinions, often very strong and often informed by experience, and we tend to dismiss data contrary to it very easily and support data supporting very easy and then rationalize it as "we aren't going along with dogma" or somewhat cherry picking the available EBM that does support our opinion, all the while believing we are out there doing "god's work" a bit better than the next guy. Though it's also hard to have too much humility in a calling that requires us to make HARD decisions and make those decisions in the absent of the very good data that many specialties are flooded with. Good decisions. "Bad" decisions. The only real crime is refusing to make a decision at all in these cases. We all do the best we can with what we have available.
I understand where you're coming from, and somewhat agree.

To me, the problem with dogma seems to be that, even if true, it doesn't allow for exceptions. If one won't wait and see if the dogma applies to the patient in question, too, one will never see the exceptions, one will never learn anything, one will never change anything. Dogma/experience/wisdom is just one piece of the puzzle.

Also, many people just don't understand how thin a lot of our so-called "evidence" is, hence don't treat medicine as experimental, as they should. Many of our guidelines are based on expert opinions. Many of our best studies end up contradicted years later. People are not robots, diseases are not reflexes. Medicine should be individualized.

And I have nothing against pulm-CCM. It's just that pulm-CCM was running the community ICUs in those hospitals. Every specialty has its dogmas.
 
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Sorry about the rant, I know I am preaching to the choir here. But, maybe, these discussions can educate some trainees, or some non-intensivists covering Covid-19 patients.

This has been tame, there are many in my hospital that won’t stfu about various interventions....when the hospitalists aren’t even managing the glucoses very well. I don’t know how many times I’ve told them to stick to the basics but that’s not sexy/flashy and ain’t no one got time for that. My patience was wearing thin and I damn near lost it when the rt department refused to get me a bipap on a post extubation pt who needed it for a bit. If I get written up for my demeanor, my response will be “and I’ll sofa king do it again if a non-clinician pts arbitrary road blocks and endangers patient care”
 
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Maybe because he wanted to point out the dogma of early intubation in pneumonias.

As an anesthesiologist, I've had bad experiences with pulm-CCM docs, where they insisted that a still decent-looking patient be intubated because they didn't like the numbers. I have a pediatrician in my family who has taught me to always look at the patient (happy or in distress), so to me the article seems intuitive, but many people have been trained knee-jerk, and are very dismissive about the risks of intubation/MV. And it shows in the way they treat Covid-19.

I don't know about your experience, but I hear dogmas frequently when I am in the ICU. Both from trainees and from attending physicians (mostly surgeons). If this then that. Some people just can't resist the urge to DO something.
Spot on
 
This has been tame, there are many in my hospital that won’t stfu about various interventions....when the hospitalists aren’t even managing the glucoses very well. I don’t know how many times I’ve told them to stick to the basics but that’s not sexy/flashy and ain’t no one got time for that. My patience was wearing thin and I damn near lost it when the rt department refused to get me a bipap on a post extubation pt who needed it for a bit. If I get written up for my demeanor, my response will be “and I’ll sofa king do it again if a non-clinician pts arbitrary road blocks and endangers patient care”
I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again: outside of a couple seasoned/intelligent ones, RTs are *****s/techs
 
We already know how to treat viral pneumonia. It's careful, supportive care. There's no need to get fancy with HCQ, toci, cytosorb, remdesivir, etc etc. Once the RCTs get done, it should be no surprise that most interventions will be negative. A few might end up hurting patients.

Its a shame seeing so much voodoo medicine being propagated when we should be doing good supportive care instead of throwing every odd substance at the patients, making numbers we think we understand go up or down as we see fit.
 
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My hospital in the UK is having a lot of success with the less is more approach.

1 - pick your battle, if someone from a nursing home is dying them face mask oxygen and side room.

2- right amount of fluids, some acutely(like 500-1000ml) if the patients dry. Don’t drown them but keep the kidney perfused.

3 - Straight on CPAP when the patient comes in. Only tube them if that doesn’t work.

4 - don’t shoot blind with drugs, enrol in RCT

5 - no PPE no me. First rule of ABC is scene safety, don’t put providers at risk.

stay safe guys
 
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Had a middle aged guy last night. Kind of obese but still working. One week of diarrhea. No dyspnea. Had -ve COVID as outpt. Sudden cardiac arrest and now has severe anoxic encephalopathy. B/L lung infiltrates. COVID is now positive.
 
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Had a middle aged guy last night. Kind of obese but still working. One week of diarrhea. No dyspnea. Had -ve COVID as outpt. Sudden cardiac arrest and now has severe anoxic encephalopathy. B/L lung infiltrates. COVID is now positive.
A negative Covid test doesn't mean anything in the right clinical context. False negative rate of about 30%, i.e. HUMONGOUS.
 
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My guy with the anoxic injury had no reported dyspnea / breathing complaints. He was probably sitting on sats of 60% for days.
I suspect the death toll from COVID is about 10 times what it is reported especially in 3rd world countries.
 
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My guy with the anoxic injury had no reported dyspnea / breathing complaints. He was probably sitting on sats of 60% for days.
I suspect the death toll from COVID is about 10 times what it is reported especially in 3rd world countries.

Sheesh. You just made me pull out my pulse oximeter to check. 98% whew.
 
My hospital in the UK is having a lot of success with the less is more approach.

1 - pick your battle, if someone from a nursing home is dying them face mask oxygen and side room.

2- right amount of fluids, some acutely(like 500-1000ml) if the patients dry. Don’t drown them but keep the kidney perfused.

3 - Straight on CPAP when the patient comes in. Only tube them if that doesn’t work.

4 - don’t shoot blind with drugs, enrol in RCT

5 - no PPE no me. First rule of ABC is scene safety, don’t put providers at risk.

stay safe guys
They wouldn’t do CPAP when I was up in NY. Too much aerolizarion but they did do high flow.
Man I miss that place already.
 
I had a guy on APRV pulling TV 358. Started becoming hypercarbic pH 7.1, pCO2 100. I tried PC RR 28 I:E 1:2. He immediately desated to 80%. How would you play with APRV to ensure better ventilation ?
 
Saw another older guy in 70s. Had COVID one month ago was hospitalized but recovered. Now coming in again with respiratory failure and is COVID positive with extremely high inflammatory markers and vascular thrombosis. Is in DIC. Not sure if he cleared virus and got reinfected or the virus got reactivated. Anyone see this type of scenario ?
 
I had a guy on APRV pulling TV 358. Started becoming hypercarbic pH 7.1, pCO2 100. I tried PC RR 28 I:E 1:2. He immediately desated to 80%. How would you play with APRV to ensure better ventilation ?
Decrease sedation to allow better spontaneous breathing, increase P-high, increase T-low. (I'm not an APRV expert.)
 
Saw another older guy in 70s. Had COVID one month ago was hospitalized but recovered. Now coming in again with respiratory failure and is COVID positive with extremely high inflammatory markers and vascular thrombosis. Is in DIC. Not sure if he cleared virus and got reinfected or the virus got reactivated. Anyone see this type of scenario ?
Described by many (hence the whole discussion whether the virus confers immunity). Patients can die the second time.
 
Described by many (hence the whole discussion whether the virus confers immunity). Patients can die the second time.
That’s very scary. Does that mean that all these people who have antibodies are just going to get it a second time ? And that mean a vaccine will not be protective ?
 
I had a guy on APRV pulling TV 358. Started becoming hypercarbic pH 7.1, pCO2 100. I tried PC RR 28 I:E 1:2. He immediately desated to 80%. How would you play with APRV to ensure better ventilation ?

I thought the BJA did a really good review paper on APRV. That being said, the best mode of ventilation is one you are most comfortable with. APRV doesn’t have consistent patient centered outcomes supporting it so maybe stick with conventional vent settings and adjust PRN
 
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That’s very scary. Does that mean that all these people who have antibodies are just going to get it a second time ? And that mean a vaccine will not be protective ?
Apparently some people (20%, I think) with milder infections don't even develop antibodies the first time, hence the lack of immunity.
 
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