COVID Vaccine: why is it not required for all DOD personnel?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
There's definitely a difference between mandating a vaccine for the military and mandating one for the general public.

Putting whether it -ought- to be mandatory for the military or not aside for a moment - joining the military is essentially saying that you want to give up a significant portion of your autonomy to do something good for your country and by extension the people who live in it. And as everyone on this threat knows, it isn't just about firing a rifle, it takes many forms. Ergo, I think it is a different conversation to mandate a vaccination for the military as opposed to the general public. So these are different conversations. The question is whether or not it is necessary for the military.


I don't like the argument that "you give up your autonomy" in the military for a few reasons. First, you don't give up your constitutional rights and bodily autonomy is something that has been founded in those rights. I think if the military prohibited abortion we would say they erred. Therefore the military cannot be completely arbitrary when it decides to infringe on constitutional rights.

Second, our military is transiently volunteer, but we still have selective service and US males are liable to be drafted. If this happened in the 1960s you couldn't make the argument that "joining the military is essentially saying you want tot give up a significant portion of your autonomy" because draftees are compelled to serve by the Government.

I think if the military is going to compel mandatory vaccination they need to exhaust all other options first, and present a clear and compelling reason to violate the bodily autonomy of their troops. Smallpox and Anthrax I get, these are bioligical agents which have been weaponized and can be increadibly destructive. You can easily say that anthrax and wipe out a battalion. COVID is a much weaker case. We know the people who make up the majority of the military have a very low risk for complications from COVID, and at present voluntary vaccination rates a COVID outbreak in a battalion might hardly make an impact.

At the most I can see a mandate of vaccination as necessary for enlistment and retention.

Members don't see this ad.
 
However, just as you can say "Myself refusing the vaccine puts other people at risks" I can say "other people continuing to be obese puts themselves at risks." It's worth asking why should I have to give up my own agency to protect the health of people who show no interest in there health? Like, an individuals own state of obesity is a much larger factor in their response to COVID than my individual vaccination decision.

Because you have a right to do what you want with your body. Your right stops when it affects other people. Doesn’t matter if they choose to be in poor health.
 
Because you have a right to do what you want with your body. Your right stops when it affects other people. Doesn’t matter if they choose to be in poor health.

Ok but doesn't compelling people to get a vaccine effect them as well? Thus your right to (something) stops when you make me take an action to ensure it for you.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Ok but doesn't compelling people to get a vaccine effect them as well? Thus your right to (something) stops when you make me take an action to ensure it for you.

Yeah, which is why we haven’t done it here. In other countries, they’ve just decided that a violation of everyone’s rights in order to protect everyone’s right to life is a fair trade.
 
I don't like the argument that "you give up your autonomy" in the military for a few reasons. First, you don't give up your constitutional rights and bodily autonomy is something that has been founded in those rights. I think if the military prohibited abortion we would say they erred. Therefore the military cannot be completely arbitrary when it decides to infringe on constitutional rights.

Second, our military is transiently volunteer, but we still have selective service and US males are liable to be drafted. If this happened in the 1960s you couldn't make the argument that "joining the military is essentially saying you want tot give up a significant portion of your autonomy" because draftees are compelled to serve by the Government.

I think if the military is going to compel mandatory vaccination they need to exhaust all other options first, and present a clear and compelling reason to violate the bodily autonomy of their troops. Smallpox and Anthrax I get, these are bioligical agents which have been weaponized and can be increadibly destructive. You can easily say that anthrax and wipe out a battalion. COVID is a much weaker case. We know the people who make up the majority of the military have a very low risk for complications from COVID, and at present voluntary vaccination rates a COVID outbreak in a battalion might hardly make an impact.

At the most I can see a mandate of vaccination as necessary for enlistment and retention.
Well, unfortunately it doesn't matter if you like it or not. Bodily autonomy would also, presumably, include not having your legs blown off but that happens all of the time. Or being killed in a parachuting accident, or a rollover, or any of the other multitude of ways in which you can be injured doing something you were ordered to do that you might not have typically done. Or having your third molars extracted. The list goes on. Also, you definitely have your constitutional rights limited when you join - as in: you are limited in how or when you can make political statements. You can be confined for indefinite periods of time without having committed a crime. You can have your place of residence or vehicle searched at any time (in particular while on post). Those rights aren't generally eliminated, but they are definitely curtailed compared to the general population.

We do have a volunteer military, and this is why I specifically stated joining, rather than being drafted. I think draftees would change the argument to an extent, and we aren't drafting, so it doesn't matter at the moment.

Your argument seems to be that we shouldn't vaccinate unless the threat is weaponized, which is of course ludicrous as MMR isn't weaponized and yet still required.

I did mention in my first post that there need to be clear and distinct reasons to mandate vaccines, as you may read above. But the rationale shouldn't be that a premed thinks COVID is no big deal because he had it and he's fine.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Yeah, which is why we haven’t done it here. In other countries, they’ve just decided that a violation of everyone’s rights in order to protect everyone’s right to life is a fair trade.

Well I think that is the point of contention.

But my point still stands with obesity, it being a major preventable comorbidity. One has to wonder on what moral authority does a largely unhealthy population get to demand vaccination for a disease that would not be very problematic had they taken any previous interest in their health. That is, if you are unwilling to be healthy then how can I be held responsible for the downstream consequences of your health decisions?
 
Well I think that is the point of contention.

But my point still stands with obesity, it being a major preventable comorbidity. One has to wonder on what moral authority does a largely unhealthy population get to demand vaccination for a disease that would not be very problematic had they taken any previous interest in their health. That is, if you are unwilling to be healthy then how can I be held responsible for the downstream consequences of your health decisions?
There's lots of smokers in the military. That's an even more avoidable poor health decision that increases your risk of COVID issues. I guess they get a pass?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
There's lots of smokers in the military. That's an even more avoidable poor health decision that increases your risk of COVID issues. I guess they get a pass?

Well we’ve been transitioning to smoke free for a while. Multiple ships are no smoking now, some bases are as well.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
And again, the issue is very different for obesity and somewhat different for smoking.

The issue with COVID is that even if you're very, very likely to do just fine if you catch it, spreading it to others is potentially and issue. And there's the part where ICU/Wards get overburdened. I think that there is a lot of misinformation on both sides with regards to the latter, but it is a point that has to be considered. ICUs are, on average, fairly full at baseline - which is something the left tends to ignore. At the same time a lot of the right seems to think that a 5% hospitalization rate is so little that it can't possibly overburden the hospital system, which just demonstrates a misunderstanding of the basic math. But once you fill the available slots with COVID patients you don't just affect the COVID patients, you effect anyone who needs an ICU bed and now can't get one.
This argument is somewhat less relevant for the military as most AD personnel are unlikely to require an ICU. But if they are spreading it to the local population, that needs to be controlled somehow - either by mandating vaccines or by restricting mobility off post. I have no data indicating if this is happening, but as I mentioned above, that would be one of the two reasons for which I would support mandating a COVID vaccine.

Obesity, on the other hand, doesn't immediately effect those around you. My nurse being fat doesn't make me fat. Certainly obese people eat up ICU and Ward beds, but definitely at a slower rate. So while there are some similar factors to COVID, it is apples and oranges. And telling people not to be fat, while a good idea and also intrinsically funny, isn't a good short term solution for COVID.

Smoking is a -little- similar with regards to second hand smoke, but as mentioned it is becoming harder and harder to be a smoker in the US, the military included. So we are definitely making political decisions that make it harder to smoke. Personally I would be fine with the military banning smoking outright, but that issue isn't quite the acute hotbed that COVID is, so it's not going to get the attention it would need to do so.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Well we’ve been transitioning to smoke free for a while. Multiple ships are no smoking now, some bases are as well.
That's nice to hear. I got out in 2013. I remember sitting in multiple smoke-filled MRAPs during convoys while I was deployed. As I was usually bumming a ride to get to another base, I didn't complain.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Fascinating discussion

The official policy of the military is to be obesity-free too. The levers leaders have go beyond fitness tests and weigh-ins, to include extra duty (mandatory group PT for those out of standards), career-damaging fitreps, disqualification for desirable billets or training, holds on promotion for people who have been selected for higher rank, and even involuntary separation.

There's an interesting comparison between the anthrax and COVID vaccines to me. At least the COVID vaccines have been shown to be effective against COVID. We gave people an anthrax vaccine developed to protect people from cutaneous anthrax infections from agriculture and dirt exposure, and we just assumed it was good for inhalational anthrax too.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
The official policy of the military is to be obesity-free too. The levers leaders have go beyond fitness tests and weigh-ins, to include extra duty (mandatory group PT for those out of standards), career-damaging fitreps, disqualification for desirable billets or training, holds on promotion for people who have been selected for higher rank, and even involuntary separation.

Yeah this is exactly the difference between smoking and obesity. The ship just has to go smoke free and sailors can’t smoke onboard. But the CO can say he wants to crack down on obesity and poor physical fitness all he wants, but if the CFLs are on the sly, it ain’t happening.
 
Um... wat?

1. Obesity is a major comorbidity with respect to COVID: "Risks for hospitalization, ICU admission, and death were lowest among patients with BMIs of 24.2 kg/m2, 25.9 kg/m2, and 23.7 kg/m2, respectively, and then increased dramatically with higher BMIs."


2. Obesity is a leading cause of mortality: "Obesity is also associated with the leading causes of death in the United States and worldwide, including diabetes, heart disease, stroke, and some types of cancer."


3. Obesity is highly pro-inflammatory (you'd think this would be important during a viral infection, you know, cytokine storm ect).

"The excess of macronutrients in the adipose tissues stimulates them to release inflammatory mediators such as tumor necrosis factor α and interleukin 6, and reduces production of adiponectin, predisposing to a pro-inflammatory state and oxidative stress. The increased level of interleukin 6 stimulates the liver to synthesize and secrete C-reactive protein. As a risk factor, inflammation is an imbedded mechanism of developed cardiovascular diseases including coagulation, atherosclerosis, metabolic syndrome, insulin resistance, and diabetes mellitus. It is also associated with development of non-cardiovascular diseases such as psoriasis, depression, cancer, and renal diseases."




If the risks for hospitalizations, ICU admission, and death "increase dramatically" with obesity then maintaining a healthy weight would dramatically decrease the risk for severe negative outcomes due to COVID infection. I don't think that is a weird stretch to make. Not only would it reduce risks for bad COVID outcomes but it would reduce risks for plenty other bad healthcare outcomes that kill hundreds of thousands year over year. Some people have suggested that morbid obesity is responsible for as much as 20 years loss in life expectancy for males.

Obesity, in and of itself, is orders of magnitude more deadly than COVID. Not only does it predispose you to negative outcomes during a COVID infection, but it also predisposes you to almost every major cause of mortality in the US.

So, since people on this thread want to present vaccine mandates as merely a problem of the commons, I think it's worth posing the question of why we view vaccine noncompliance as uniquely problematic.

Ha! Look 'ma a college student clicked on pharmacytimes.com and now thinks he/she knows something about medicine.

Yes, obesity is a risk factor for all sorts of badness, to include bad outcomes in the ICU 2.2 covid pneumonia. But, as a medical community, we don't discount people based on risk factors. If you click around your google searches you may stumble upon plenty of medical and psychiatric causes of obesity. You will also find healthcare barriers - educational, economic, cultural/racial - that predispose certain populations to obesity. Your lack of empathy, as demonstrated in your previous post for a large (pun very much intended) segment of the population makes you perfect for a career outside of medicine.



Going back to original topic... We have one thing that we know works for COVID - vaccination. We can't undo risk factors in the next few months or years, that's just not a thing. I can understand the hesitancy of military leaders mandating it right now. But, as others have stated once we have longer term data I'm hopeful it will be included in the list of mandatory vaccinations. Perhaps even make an annual training about it:rolleyes:
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Members don't see this ad :)
Perhaps even make an annual training about it

I think this is a really good idea. When I was on AD, I hated mandatory training, but now that I don't have to do it anymore I really see the benefit, and I think there needs to be a ton more. This is at least a 5 hour topic. Annually. In person. During clinic hours.
 
  • Haha
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Ha! Look 'ma a college student clicked on pharmacytimes.com and now thinks he/she knows something about medicine.

Yes, obesity is a risk factor for all sorts of badness, to include bad outcomes in the ICU 2.2 covid pneumonia. But, as a medical community, we don't discount people based on risk factors. If you click around your google searches you may stumble upon plenty of medical and psychiatric causes of obesity. You will also find healthcare barriers - educational, economic, cultural/racial - that predispose certain populations to obesity. Your lack of empathy, as demonstrated in your previous post for a large (pun very much intended) segment of the population makes you perfect for a career outside of medicine.



Going back to original topic... We have one thing that we know works for COVID - vaccination. We can't undo risk factors in the next few months or years, that's just not a thing. I can understand the hesitancy of military leaders mandating it right now. But, as others have stated once we have longer term data I'm hopeful it will be included in the list of mandatory vaccinations. Perhaps even make an annual training about it:rolleyes:


Oh is that the game we are playing. You accuse me of being scientifically ignorant, I produce the sources, and then we move on to the next ad hominem "you're just a student!"?

I don't lack empathy. My point, which might have gone over your head, is that the argument as applied to mandatory COVID vaccinations could easily and more forcefully be applied to Obesity, both within and outside the context of COVID.

Since people here have demonstrated that they are willing to flaunt all conception of personal agency in the pursuit of better health outcomes the question I am posing is why don't we do so for one of the largest contributors to mortality?

The argument is pretty simple: you want to force people to get vaccinated so that they can't get other people sick. I propose that in your moral universe it would be just as worthwhile to force people to not be obese, so that they wouldn't be less likely to tie up healthcare resources if they did get sick. Similarly, forcing people to not be obese would pay dividends across the rest of the healthcare spectrum.

I think the barriers to healthy weight are overstated, certainly so if we can weild government force to do so in the same way some people have called for enforcing vaccine mandates and other COVID precautions. One commenter here pointed out that the Chinese and the Russians probably don't have to deal with pesky vaccine-decliners in the ranks of their military. I'm sure they have a couple good get-skinny-quick strategies in their gulag systems as well.

Obviously this is an argument from absurdity if you haven't caught on yet. My point is that think it is wise to resist totalitarian tendencies in medicine.

Let's get the vaccine to everyone who wants it first before we start talking about forcing it on everyone. People started talking about vaccine passports and mandates before we even had enough for high-risk patients. One could get the impression that the medical community is more interested in control than vaccinations. That's how a lot of folks certainly come off to us plebes.
 
Well I think that is the point of contention.

But my point still stands with obesity, it being a major preventable comorbidity. One has to wonder on what moral authority does a largely unhealthy population get to demand vaccination for a disease that would not be very problematic had they taken any previous interest in their health. That is, if you are unwilling to be healthy then how can I be held responsible for the downstream consequences of your health decisions?
Have you ever worked in a (civilian) hospital ward? How many people do you think are on the general med/surg floor being treated for preventable diseases? Hint - it's mostly everybody. If all of those people also got COVID and needed intensive care, it could be a disaster. They don't get skinnier or healthier by being scolded for their health decisions. We work with patients to keep them alive and improve their health regardless of our personal opinions of their life decisions. If you are looking at pursuing a (successful) career in medicine, you're going to need to do a little soul-searching and find some empathy because you're going to see lots of people make poor health decisions over and over again and you have to treat them anyway.
 
Have you ever worked in a (civilian) hospital ward? How many people do you think are on the general med/surg floor being treated for preventable diseases? Hint - it's mostly everybody. If all of those people also got COVID and needed intensive care, it could be a disaster. They don't get skinnier or healthier by being scolded for their health decisions. We work with patients to keep them alive and improve their health regardless of our personal opinions of their life decisions. If you are looking at pursuing a (successful) career in medicine, you're going to need to do a little soul-searching and find some empathy because you're going to see lots of people make poor health decisions over and over again and you have to treat them anyway.


You are missing the point.

The argument is that being obese doesn't hurt other people but being unvaccinated does. However, if the state of your obesity puts you at a heightened risk of COVID that then justifies compelling my vaccination by force, then your obesity is equally effecting me.

I seem to be the only person here that hesitates to want to violate people's autonomy and agency. My argument concerning obesity is an argument from absurdity because you clearly don't think of obesity in the way you think of vaccine denial. If you think my arguments are repulsive then good, because I think medicine-at-gunpoint is repulsive. That said, I'm not so caught up in the hysteria to make arbitrary distinctions between public health crisises which is what yall are doing.

Obesity and COVID are clearly public health crisises, you are just conditioned to consider obesity as fairly normal. You wouldn't go to such great lengths to violate peopels agency over obesity, or alienate them as a population, but people on this forum can't even be bothered to *try* to convince vaccine deniers. You just want to call them stupid and force it down their throat.
 
This thread seems to be getting moderated. The comment that advocated violence from @LittleBrother and a couple others have disappeared. I guess that’s appropriate.

The notion that a military unit with a covid outbreak would function normally is simply false. Perhaps in a massive global conflict, that unit would be expected to simply fight through it. But in our typical current world of multiple low level conflicts and risk assessment, they would be removed from action to quarantine, contact trace, etc. Vaccination would prevent all of the challenges that this creates for commanders.
We are also seeing tons of post-COVID patients with a myriad of symptoms. That is going to be the new Gulf War Syndrome, chronic lyme, or similar. The government owns the cost of that for these folks for life.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Oh is that the game we are playing. You accuse me of being scientifically ignorant, I produce the sources, and then we move on to the next ad hominem "you're just a student!"?

I don't lack empathy. My point, which might have gone over your head, is that the argument as applied to mandatory COVID vaccinations could easily and more forcefully be applied to Obesity, both within and outside the context of COVID.

Since people here have demonstrated that they are willing to flaunt all conception of personal agency in the pursuit of better health outcomes the question I am posing is why don't we do so for one of the largest contributors to mortality?

The argument is pretty simple: you want to force people to get vaccinated so that they can't get other people sick. I propose that in your moral universe it would be just as worthwhile to force people to not be obese, so that they wouldn't be less likely to tie up healthcare resources if they did get sick. Similarly, forcing people to not be obese would pay dividends across the rest of the healthcare spectrum.

I think the barriers to healthy weight are overstated, certainly so if we can weild government force to do so in the same way some people have called for enforcing vaccine mandates and other COVID precautions. One commenter here pointed out that the Chinese and the Russians probably don't have to deal with pesky vaccine-decliners in the ranks of their military. I'm sure they have a couple good get-skinny-quick strategies in their gulag systems as well.

Obviously this is an argument from absurdity if you haven't caught on yet. My point is that think it is wise to resist totalitarian tendencies in medicine.

Let's get the vaccine to everyone who wants it first before we start talking about forcing it on everyone. People started talking about vaccine passports and mandates before we even had enough for high-risk patients. One could get the impression that the medical community is more interested in control than vaccinations. That's how a lot of folks certainly come off to us plebes.

Yes, you are scientifically ignorant. Yes, you are just a student. You can't force a normal BMI on somebody. You can vaccinate.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
This thread seems to be getting moderated. The comment that advocated violence from @LittleBrother and a couple others have disappeared. I guess that’s appropriate.

The notion that a military unit with a covid outbreak would function normally is simply false. Perhaps in a massive global conflict, that unit would be expected to simply fight through it. But in our typical current world of multiple low level conflicts and risk assessment, they would be removed from action to quarantine, contact trace, etc. Vaccination would prevent all of the challenges that this creates for commanders.
We are also seeing tons of post-COVID patients with a myriad of symptoms. That is going to be the new Gulf War Syndrome, chronic lyme, or similar. The government owns the cost of that for these folks for life.

I hardly advocated violence. I used an idiom that translates roughly to "that guy's career should be ruined." Had I said "He should have been keelhauled" I doubt anyone would have thought I was advocating for dragging him underneath the keel of a ship, and not " rebuke severely...
" there's no need to keelhaul him—it was an honest mistake, and a small one at that ""


And I never said that a military unit with a COVID outbreak should function normally, I said that combat effectiveness could be maintained. The charge was that COVID stopped TR in wake and that is untrue. In a serious conflict, as you yourself said, TR could have just pushed through. COVID is certainly a friction point but it is not so dangerous that a ship or battalion would be combat ineffective.

What TR should have done was hang out in Guam and bpt to casevac as needed. And what the CO should have done is maintained his composure and not tell the US media and China that he thought his ship was combat ineffective. If a ship full of healthy young sailors in the lowest risk category for COVID can be made combat ineffective from COVID then we really don't have much resiliency in our fighting forces.
 
Yes, you are scientifically ignorant. Yes, you are just a student. You can't force a normal BMI on somebody. You can vaccinate.

I think the history of the world shows that governments and bad times can force a normal or even underweight BMI on a lot of people.

Doing so would obviously violate a lot of moral systems, but if everything is justified in the name of "public health" then I don't see why you are fussing about abstract moral concepts in your moral universe. Obviously we have a very unhealthy population, a massive contributor to that is obesity, and so forcing people to be a healthy weight is good. If we are justified to use government force to achieve whatever outcome is good, then certainly we can just force people to lose weight in the name of public health.

Granted, I don't think it would be morally right, or in keeping with a tradition of civil liberties. But, I don't think vaccine mandates do either.


This isn't even getting to how practically unnecessary and divisive vaccine mandates are.
 
You’ll be happy to learn that the medical community could t possibly institute a policy of vaccine passports, no matter what. They don’t have the ability to do so. Your elected officials may, however.
 
I think the history of the world shows that governments and bad times can force a normal or even underweight BMI on a lot of people.

Doing so would obviously violate a lot of moral systems, but if everything is justified in the name of "public health" then I don't see why you are fussing about abstract moral concepts in your moral universe. Obviously we have a very unhealthy population, a massive contributor to that is obesity, and so forcing people to be a healthy weight is good. If we are justified to use government force to achieve whatever outcome is good, then certainly we can just force people to lose weight in the name of public health.

Granted, I don't think it would be morally right, or in keeping with a tradition of civil liberties. But, I don't think vaccine mandates do either.


This isn't even getting to how practically unnecessary and divisive vaccine mandates are.

Yeah? Please educate us on this history. Bonus points if you can answer this without advancing your probationary status.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: 1 user
Yeah? Please educate us on this history. Bonus points if you can answer this without advancing your probationary status.

The Soviets had a pretty good go at it a number of times.

Granted they might have overshot the mark by a couple of million deaths but hey we are 100 years along now, I'm sure if we just let the technocrats here manage it we can have a successful food rationing program. Maybe BMI passports?

No harm so long as we are trying to help, right?

To state explicitly, I am continuing to make an argument from absurdity to illustrate what I believe are significant perils of this totalitarian take on public health.


What this boils down to is that violating people's autonomy to enforce a healthy BMI strikes most people as authoritarian whereas enforcing a vaccine mandate seems reasonable. Its just an arbitrary distinction, however. People have autonomy or they don't. The argument that an unvaccinated person puts people at risk is tenuous when it is used to justify infringing on civil liberties. There is plenty of individual conduct that can be argued harms the greater good. In fact, the necessity of the collective good over individual liberties is often used to justify all kinds of atrocities and infringements. Concepts like liberty, agency, autonomy, are explicitly antagonistic to collectivist notions that underpin mandatory vaccination.
 
Last edited:
@pgg and I are probably the only ones that remember this debacle. Was a fun time to be a green side GMO:
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
The Soviets had a pretty good go at it a number of times.

Granted they might have overshot the mark by a couple of million deaths but hey we are 100 years along now, I'm sure if we just let the technocrats here manage it we can have a successful food rationing program. Maybe BMI passports?

No harm so long as we are trying to help, right?

To state explicitly, I am continuing to make an argument from absurdity to illustrate what I believe are significant perils of this totalitarian take on public health.


What this boils down to is that violating people's autonomy to enforce a healthy BMI strikes most people as authoritarian whereas enforcing a vaccine mandate seems reasonable. Its just an arbitrary distinction, however. People have autonomy or they don't. The argument that an unvaccinated person puts people at risk is tenuous when it is used to justify infringing on civil liberties. There is plenty of individual conduct that can be argued harms the greater good. In fact, the necessity of the collective good over individual liberties is often used to justify all kinds of atrocities and infringements. Concepts like liberty, agency, autonomy, are explicitly antagonistic to collectivist notions that underpin mandatory vaccination.

In the civilian world, this can debated ad nauseum. In the military, we don't always have such patience or time. I hope the POTUS makes it mandatory and puts this issue to bed.

If we worked in a zoo as animal handlers, the rabies vaccine would be required. Do I mean to compare us to zoo handlers, and that they're more disciplined than most military members? Yes, that's exactly what I mean.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
...My point is that think it is wise to resist totalitarian tendencies in medicine.

I concur.

...I seem to be the only person here that hesitates to want to violate people's autonomy and agency...

There are others of us out here w/this same hesitation (but who are also doing our best at trying to see the value of the perspectives & concerns on both sides of this issue).
 
Emotion Reaction GIF
 
  • Like
  • Haha
Reactions: 3 users
There are others of us out here w/this same hesitation (but who are also doing our best at trying to see the value of the perspectives & concerns on both sides of this issue).

Or maybe 'LittleBrother' got tired of being on probationary status since 10/22/2020 and created another handle on 12/17/2020.

I see a 'banned' coming, in 3 . . . . . . 2 . . . . 1 !
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Or maybe 'LittleBrother' got tired of being on probationary status since 10/22/2020 and created another handle on 12/17/2020.

I see a 'banned' coming, in 3 . . . . . . 2 . . . . 1 !

I don't care enough about this place to do that.

Also I didn't know I was on time-out till yesterday. Still here apparently...
 
@pgg and I are probably the only ones that remember this debacle. Was a fun time to be a green side GMO:
During my 2004 GMO deployment to Afghanistan, we had Marines stand in formation and take their mefloquine while being directly eyeballed by Corpsmen.

I'm going to go out on a limb and bet that compliance with our unobserved post-prophylaxis at home was approximately 0% (primaquine maybe? it's been a while).
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
During my 2004 GMO deployment to Afghanistan, we had Marines stand in formation and take their mefloquine while being directly eyeballed by Corpsmen.

I'm going to go out on a limb and bet that compliance with our unobserved post-prophylaxis at home was approximately 0% (primaquine maybe? it's been a while).
And they just made them take it? What about their constitutional rights??
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
And they just made them take it? What about their constitutional rights??


The grotesque thing isn't that there are compelling reasons for servicemembers to get vaccinated, it's that you trivialize their rights to the point that mandates are a matter of convenience (to yourselves) as opposed to absolute battlefield necessity.


I at the least would not enjoy forcing people to get vaccinated against their will even if there was a clear reason to do so.

All too many here seem positively giddy about it. Like a bunch of control freaks salivating over their chance to exert more control.

That is primarily what disturbs me.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
The grotesque thing isn't that there are compelling reasons for servicemembers to get vaccinated, it's that you trivialize their rights to the point that mandates are a matter of convenience (to yourselves) as opposed to absolute battlefield necessity.


I at the least would not enjoy forcing people to get vaccinated against their will even if there was a clear reason to do so.

All too many here seem positively giddy about it. Like a bunch of control freaks salivating over their chance to exert more control.

That is primarily what disturbs me.


The idea that you so blatantly misrepresent the relative significance of a vaccine when compared with essentially any other aspect of military service as it pertains to the rights of service members demonstrates your lack of understanding of medicine, military service, or the concept of legal personal freedom.
You may have military service under your belt, but if so I’m fairly confident you made it through without understanding the magnitude of what you signed up for. If you make it through medical training, I can only hope that the same fate won’t befall you, or you’ll end up selling fake cures on late night radio.
You act like there is even the semblance of moral equivalency between the discussion of mandating a vaccine to a population of people who have volunteered to give their actual lives to their country, and forced starvation of a population for weight control, while ignoring the fact that the armed forces do in fact mandate weight control. Reading your posts is like listening to Alex Jones. Spewing false equivalencies as a substitute for understanding does not validate a point. But thanks for the entertainment.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
But, fwiw, as I have mentioned now more than once: I do think service members should have a choice. Right up until they shouldn’t. Just like everything else we ask them to do.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
But, fwiw, as I have mentioned now more than once: I do think service members should have a choice. Right up until they shouldn’t. Just like everything else we ask them to do.

I agree.

The two principles that are applicable here are: intelligence and proper balance.

Be intelligent about, and keep in a proper/wise balance, the things that are made mandatory for military members, and the things that we are allowed to have a choice on in the matter.

Many of us seasoned folks (22 years as a Medical Corps officer, personally) feel that the administration and the military are taking a wise approach with regards to this early/new immunization roll-out by allowing military members to have a choice in the matter for the time being.

However, I appreciate reading both sides of the discussion being had here on this thread.
 
The idea that you so blatantly misrepresent the relative significance of a vaccine when compared with essentially any other aspect of military service as it pertains to the rights of service members demonstrates your lack of understanding of medicine, military service, or the concept of legal personal freedom.
You may have military service under your belt, but if so I’m fairly confident you made it through without understanding the magnitude of what you signed up for. If you make it through medical training, I can only hope that the same fate won’t befall you, or you’ll end up selling fake cures on late night radio.
You act like there is even the semblance of moral equivalency between the discussion of mandating a vaccine to a population of people who have volunteered to give their actual lives to their country, and forced starvation of a population for weight control, while ignoring the fact that the armed forces do in fact mandate weight control. Reading your posts is like listening to Alex Jones. Spewing false equivalencies as a substitute for understanding does not validate a point. But thanks for the entertainment.


I'll do my best to rewrite this since so many of my responses seem to go missing without explanation...

First, I find it curious that the milmed SDN forum, a place that used to be well known for it's resentment of the actual military, now has such a **** for the authority the military wields over it's servicemembers.

Second, I enlisted as an infantryman during the surge into Afghanistan. Are you really disparaging my service simply because you have a disagreement with me?

Third, I served 5 years enlisted. It is clear you have no conception of what enlisted life is like, despite this being the majority of people in the military. As an enlistedman, some shmuck with a B.A in Tourism could absolutely ruin my life merely on the account that they passed college and survived OCS. We forget that officers still have the power to summarily execute people in combat. Many of us enlisted are all-to-familair with the tendency of power-hungry college children to micromanage every aspect of our lives.

Therefore, it wasn't that wierd for me to see a 40% vaccine denial rate from the Corps, nor was it that wierd to see a bunch of officers jump immediately to orders and mandates as the solution. See, these kids were saying "no" to the only thing they were allowed to, after all you can't even say "no" to the Marine Corps Ball. And, you officers being the control-freaks that you are, you can't be bothered to actually *convince* people beneath you in rank and in intelligence, so they must simply be *ordered* to do as you wish.

There are a couple things I learned leading a squad among other things. Just because you have power doesn't mean you need to use it. It's better to convince that to coerce. You are better off when people see you as a friend and not as a master. Perhaps this kind of basic leadership experience is lacking in mil med?

At any rate, while I fully understand the battlefield necessity for some vaccinations, I think that we should mandate them with the most extreme caution and only under specific and compelling circumstances.

At the very least, you can make more of an effort to hide your **** for this kind of control.

Edited by a moderator for language
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Because there's been a bothersome singular focus on obesity and obese individuals being protected costing the rights of "healthy people", there needs to be some relevant nuance added to this discussion.

In an article published today by the British Medical Journal of Sports Medicine, the identified the factors that predisposed to severe COVID/death. Comparing odds ratios the top 3 in order were:

1. Age > 60
2. Hx of organ transplant
3. Physical inactivity

The first two are immutable for individuals. The third encompasses a lot more than just obese people. There are plenty of Americans that are physical inactive, but not obese. There are a number of soldiers who also meet this criteria, common enough that some people brag their only PT is the APFT/ACFT they take a couple times yearly. Acting like it's a small subset of Americans who made poor choices to put themselves at risk discounts reality.

One could play the rights game for those over 60 and who have had organ transplants, which shows why it's such a poorly formed argument as its rather templated/ad-libesque, e.g., Why do non COVID vaxxers get to continue to act as a disease resevior gallavanting around the country side with reckless abandon expose others at risk unless they elect to stay at home and not participate in society? Do people older than 60 and those with organ transplants not get to enjoy their inalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? This argument is circular and can go on ad nauseum.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
JJ getting halted is exactly the reason why I don’t think you force servicemembers into the vaccine at this time. Encourage them and educate them the best you can. But wait until you have legit safety and efficacy data (ideally within the subgroup) before mandating it. That should be available next year.

I know a young healthy person that died a day after the vaccine. I also know many women who have struggled with significant menstruated irregularities after the vaccine. So yes...this is a little personal to me. I just want to see our servicemembers get good and equitable care. Until they can be appropriately consented on risks...it should be an elective procedure. Just because they CAN be forced doesn’t mean the SHOULD be forced.

BTW...this may be the first time I’ve thought about autonomy and equitable care since my medical ethics course in Med school. Good topic.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
JJ getting halted is exactly the reason why I don’t think you force servicemembers into the vaccine at this time. Encourage them and educate them the best you can. But wait until you have legit safety and efficacy data (ideally within the subgroup) before mandating it. That should be available next year.

I know a young healthy person that died a day after the vaccine. I also know many women who have struggled with significant menstruated irregularities after the vaccine. So yes...this is a little personal to me. I just want to see our servicemembers get good and equitable care. Until they can be appropriately consented on risks...it should be an elective procedure. Just because they CAN be forced doesn’t mean the SHOULD be forced.

BTW...this may be the first time I’ve through about autonomy and equitable care since my medical ethics course in Med school. Good topic.
Great comments in this thread. I think most of us want the mRNA vaccines to work and to be safe. That said, being cautious with the roll-out and giving the FDA time to verify the safety of the vaccine should be a no-brainer and physicians demanding others be inoculated with an experimental vaccine is a potentially awful look for the medical profession. Encourage those who want it to take it, but respect others wishes to wait for more data. Thats not anti-intellectual in the slightest.

That said, I do understand service members are not civilians and the rules may be different...
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Just to be clear. Moderna and Pfizer are mrna based and not paused, J&J is based on existing adenovirus technology, and astrezeneca is based on DNA. Different tech. Moderna and Pfizer aren't paused, while J&J is the only one paused and honestly I don't know the status of Astrezenca currently. The blood clot issue arose with Astrezeneca and J&J, the non mrna vaccines. With J&J, we're looking at 6 women with clots, 1 death out of a huge denominator. Risk seems less than OCPs and blood clots which nobody's clamoring to end, and likely much less than COVID and blood clots. The pause for J&J is the right thing, but unless histrionic politicians get involved, im betting science will move forward with the vaccine in a few days after a review with maybe some more strongly worded caution for women on the J&J vaccine monograph.

The contention that we need to wait a year or two, to me seems a bit excessive, as we have substantial data now for 2 of the vaccines and a possibly starting to have more data on the third. Risk/benefit wise, I feel like there's an awful lot of overselling of vaccine risks and underselling COVID risks on this thread. There's also a lot of muddying the waters/equivocation of separate vaccine entities. Intentional or not, it should at least be mentioned.
 
Just to be clear. Moderna and Pfizer are mrna based and not paused, J&J is based on existing adenovirus technology, and astrezeneca is based on DNA. Different tech. Moderna and Pfizer aren't paused, while J&J is the only one paused and honestly I don't know the status of Astrezenca currently. The blood clot issue arose with Astrezeneca and J&J, the non mrna vaccines. With J&J, we're looking at 6 women with clots, 1 death out of a huge denominator. Risk seems less than OCPs and blood clots which nobody's clamoring to end, and likely much less than COVID and blood clots. The pause for J&J is the right thing, but unless histrionic politicians get involved, im betting science will move forward with the vaccine in a few days after a review with maybe some more strongly worded caution for women on the J&J vaccine monograph.

The contention that we need to wait a year or two, to me seems a bit excessive, as we have substantial data now for 2 of the vaccines and a possibly starting to have more data on the third. Risk/benefit wise, I feel like there's an awful lot of overselling of vaccine risks and underselling COVID risks on this thread. There's also a lot of muddying the waters/equivocation of separate vaccine entities. Intentional or not, it should at least be mentioned.
I agree that so far they appear very low risk. The only thing left is to give the process time to see if any odd things pop up with respect to long term adverse outcomes.
 
Great comments in this thread. I think most of us want the mRNA vaccines to work and to be safe. That said, being cautious with the roll-out and giving the FDA time to verify the safety of the vaccine should be a no-brainer and physicians demanding others be inoculated with an experimental vaccine is a potentially awful look for the medical profession. Encourage those who want it to take it, but respect others wishes to wait for more data. Thats not anti-intellectual in the slightest.

I'd agree wholeheartedly except for the fact that a large percentage of vaccine wait-and-see'ers are just ignorant. And at this point, willfully, obstinately so.

They toss out bull**** like "mRNA vaccines change your DNA" and "Fauci has a patent and is getting paid for every dose" and "99.97% of people survive covid without symptoms" and "the PLANdemic is a Chinese bioweapon" and "it was overblown propaganda to STEAL THE ELECTION" ... all things I've heard in just the last few days.

The majority are profoundly anti-intellectual. There's only so many times you can have the conversation with them before you just give up.

You know what's a really bad look? For physicians and scientists to treat these *****s with kid gloves and for the media to give equal time to hear "both sides" as if there's some kind of opinion-based equivalency. We have a moral duty to call out lies and misinformation when they harm public health.

There are some great reasons to delay getting one of the vaccines. Unfortunately most of them have stupid reasons. And while I'm certainly not in favor of forcing immunization upon the public at large, I'm not going to smile and pretend that these pearl clutching handwringing idiots blathering on about conspiracies of CDC collusion with China are behaving rationally.
 
  • Like
  • Dislike
Reactions: 3 users
Top