Criminal History

[ScubaEMT]

I’ve been told various things regarding criminal history by different doctors, but I was wondering if anybody who has had any real experience or knowledge in this area would be willing to give me some input.

When I was a teenager, I was pretty idealistic and was looking for a way I could change the world. I ended up getting pretty heavily involved in grassroots environmental/animal rights activism starting when I was about 14. As a result, I got arrested quite frequently as a juvenile and a couple times just after my 18th birthday. I eventually did some research outside of the propaganda that was fed to me and got as far as I could from the activist groups that I was involved in.

As far as my criminal record is concerned, I got away from my past relatively unscathed. I had two really minor misdemeanor convictions as an adult. Both of them have been judicially expunged.

Is this something that is going to make getting into med school much more difficult? A few docs have told me that it shouldn’t make much of a difference since my arrests (a) stemmed from a genuine attempt to make a positive change in the world. (b) were not for any kind of violent crime. and (c) are from a period of my life that has definitely ended.

Of course, there are a number of people who have been telling me that I will never get into med school with a criminal record, but most of these are other pre med students, nurses, and other people who really don’t have a concrete knowledge of the admissions process. I was actually also told that I would never get my EMT certification or work in a hospital, but with a little extra work, I proved those people wrong.

Okay, I’m rambling a bit, so I'll end this, but does anybody have any idea of what I am facing when I start the application process? Words of encouragement? Advice for how to spin this at interviews and/or on personal statements/essays?

Thanks in advance for your help!

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[medhacker]

You should not have any problems.

People with "certain" criminal records get accepted every year.

The ones that will most def. keep you out:

Moral turpitude crimes: Rape, Child abuse, Elderly abuse, Child sex crimes, Habitual DUIs, and others
Crimes against society: Drug posession/trafficking, terrorism charges, and others.
Felonies: Murder, aggravated assault with a weapon, bank robberies and others.

 

[ScubaEMT]

You should not have any problems.

People with "certain" criminal records get accepted every year.

The ones that will most def. keep you out:

Moral turpitude crimes: Rape, Child abuse, Elderly abuse, Child sex crimes, Habitual DUIs, and others
Crimes against society: Drug posession/trafficking, terrorism charges, and others.
Felonies: Murder, aggravated assault with a weapon, bank robberies and others.

Yikes... good thing I got away from the cops that one time when I was punching my grandfather in the eye while driving drunk in that car that was loaded with cocaine.

 

[medhacker]

Yikes... good thing I got away from the cops that one time when I was punching my grandfather in the eye while driving drunk in that car that was loaded with cocaine.

You catch on fast son, keep it up!

 

[Barts]

Charged with 7 felony counts of theft/embezzlement. No problems at all, I didn't even mention them on any apps. Of course none of them were convictions and all charges were dropped and sealed once the guilty party was caught. So not being convicted probably made the difference there.

 

[cabinbuilder]

May depend on the med school too. I went to a private school and part of the application process was a federal background check that had to be cleared before the continued the process. You may want to find out sooner than later depending on where you apply.

 

[njbmd]

Is this something that is going to make getting into med school much more difficult? A few docs have told me that it shouldn’t make much of a difference since my arrests (a) stemmed from a genuine attempt to make a positive change in the world. (b) were not for any kind of violent crime. and (c) are from a period of my life that has definitely ended.

Thanks in advance for your help!

At this point, you need to spend some money and consult an attorney who can advise you of your rights and what to expect in your situation. A public message board is going to be opinions at best and speculation at worst. Get some sound legal advice and follow it. SDN is not the place for these types of questions and you need to have accurate advice for your situation. Good luck!

 

[ScubaEMT]

At this point, you need to spend some money and consult an attorney who can advise you of your rights and what to expect in your situation. A public message board is going to be opinions at best and speculation at worst. Get some sound legal advice and follow it. SDN is not the place for these types of questions and you need to have accurate advice for your situation. Good luck!

I have already spoken with an attorney about this when I got my convictions expunged. The legal side of it is that the convictions are not supposed to show up on any background checks and that I legally do not need to disclose the convictions to any employer or school unless I am applying for a government job.

I am concerned that, depending on what kind of background check they end up doing (if any), my convictions could show up (private background investigation companies often use outdated information that can include expunged items). It seems that it would be prudent to be forthcoming about these two relatively minor offences than have an adcom uncover the information without me disclosing it.

In short: I have gotten my legal advice (that I do not have to disclose anything as long as it is expunged or in my juvie record), and I wanted to know how my past would affect me if it were disclosed.

Thanks to everybody who has responded so far. I appreciate the input.

 

[Barts]

I have already spoken with an attorney about this when I got my convictions expunged. The legal side of it is that the convictions are not supposed to show up on any background checks and that I legally do not need to disclose the convictions to any employer or school unless I am applying for a government job.

I am concerned that, depending on what kind of background check they end up doing (if any), my convictions could show up (private background investigation companies often use outdated information that can include expunged items). It seems that it would be prudent to be forthcoming about these two relatively minor offences than have an adcom uncover the information without me disclosing it.

In short: I have gotten my legal advice (that I do not have to disclose anything as long as it is expunged or in my juvie record), and I wanted to know how my past would affect me if it were disclosed.

Thanks to everybody who has responded so far. I appreciate the input.

Mine were all sealed and were felonies. I didn't list them on any application and it was never brought up. Like I said though, I was never convicted of anything--long story. So, I was charged with 7 felonies which would of course shown up in any background check-but they were all sealed. I paid for a few background checks before I applied to medical school to ensure they didn't show up at all---they didn't. Which is of course what the D.A. and attorney told me at the time they apologized and said they would be sealed. Since you have advice from your legal council, I would pay for a background check or two or even call a few of the schools. Either way, good luck!

 

[ScubaEMT]

Since you have advice from your legal council, I would pay for a background check or two or even call a few of the schools. Either way, good luck!

Thanks... Thats a good idea. I'll get to running a few background checks on myself next time I have some money in the bank... Good thing I am early on in my pre-med

 

[NickOICU812]

Don't become discouraged because of your past. Anyone who says you have no chance is inflaming the issue. Everyone makes mistakes, and personal experience is one of the best learning tools there is. Good luck.

 

[futureboy]

I legally do not need to disclose the convictions to any employer or school unless I am applying for a government job.


Keep in mind, however, that you may be asked to disclose the convictions when you apply for your physician license, even the ones that are expunged. Make sure you read the application questions carefully. If you are not sure, err on the side of disclosure. If it appears you are lying or evasive, it could cause the denial of your license.

It doesn't look like you will have a problem anyway even if you have to disclose everything, given that the offenses were relatively minor.

 

[gotmeds?]

I have already spoken with an attorney about this when I got my convictions expunged. The legal side of it is that the convictions are not supposed to show up on any background checks and that I legally do not need to disclose the convictions to any employer or school unless I am applying for a government job.

Be careful with this. You also need to disclose them when you're applying for any kind of state licensure (I'm guessing you went through this as an EMT already). You can request a copy of your criminal record from the DOJ. It will show everything, including arrests, detentions, charges, and convictions (whether or not they were expunged). When you are applying, you should assume as a worst-case scenario that someone looking into your background will have access to that. With that said, you seem to have a good explanation. I doubt that a couple of expunged misdemeanors as an adult will keep you out of school. You don't even have to disclose them on the AMCAS (they were expunged), but you may want to think about disclosing them if they ask on the secondaries.

 

[ScubaEMT]

Be careful with this. You also need to disclose them when you're applying for any kind of state licensure (I'm guessing you went through this as an EMT already). You can request a copy of your criminal record from the DOJ.

Yeah.. I am planning on disclosing everything when Im going for licensure.

Do you happen to know the process for obtaining your DOJ record?

 

[gotmeds?]

Just go to your local police station that offers livescan service and ask them. You basically just do a livescan and have the records sent to you...or...um...so I've heard.

 

[Non-TradTulsa]

Don't become discouraged because of your past. Anyone who says you have no chance is inflaming the issue. Everyone makes mistakes, and personal experience is one of the best learning tools there is. Good luck.

I realize that this post is an attempt to be helpful, but for this issue it isn't true. Any criminal history is deadly serious for a potential future physician. I believe the historical acceptance rate for applicants who have reported a felony conviction on AMCAS is something under 1%. Drug felonies are lethal because you're often not eligible for federally-backed loans plus the DEA takes a very dim view of drug felons when deciding whether or not issuing a DEA number is "in the public interest." As already mentioned, any crime - misdemeanor or felony - involving exploitation or violence - spousal abuse, child abuse, elder abuse - is a deal killer because hospitals will not allow the student to be involved in direct patient care.

I think a couple of expunged misdemeanors aren't going to be a deal-killer. Truth is, however, we don't know how the new system is going to work in practice - it used to be that AMCAS only asked about felonies and, while many schools asked about misdemeanors on their secondaries, quite a few didn't. Now that AMCAS is going to ask about misdemeanors (unexpunged, however) there's no track record yet on whether any schools will pre-screen based on that information. Truth is, if you're equivalent to another applicant in all other measures but you have a criminal history, it isn't helpful at all to your application. It's good that you sought advice from physicians, but criminal history is a hot issue with AAMC right now and standards are tightening every year. It's radically different than it was just a few years ago.

For licensure, you'll definitely be asked about expunged misdemeanors, and you'll have to disclose them. If a school asks about arrests or expunged misdemeanors, I would definitely disclose them regardless of your attorney's advice. In some states, perhaps including yours, they can't ask... but, in other states, expungement protections apply only to job applications - and a school application is not covered by employment law. So, if a school asks, you can generally assume that they have a legal right to ask in the state in which they are located.

I don't think you have a huge worry, however. Good luck.

 

[Barts]

I realize that this post is an attempt to be helpful, but for this issue it isn't true. Any criminal history is deadly serious for a potential future physician. I believe the historical acceptance rate for applicants who have reported a felony conviction on AMCAS is something under 1%. Drug felonies are lethal because you're often not eligible for federally-backed loans plus the DEA takes a very dim view of drug felons when deciding whether or not issuing a DEA number is "in the public interest." As already mentioned, any crime - misdemeanor or felony - involving exploitation or violence - spousal abuse, child abuse, elder abuse - is a deal killer because hospitals will not allow the student to be involved in direct patient care.

I think a couple of expunged misdemeanors aren't going to be a deal-killer. Truth is, however, we don't know how the new system is going to work in practice - it used to be that AMCAS only asked about felonies and, while many schools asked about misdemeanors on their secondaries, quite a few didn't. Now that AMCAS is going to ask about misdemeanors (unexpunged, however) there's no track record yet on whether any schools will pre-screen based on that information. Truth is, if you're equivalent to another applicant in all other measures but you have a criminal history, it isn't helpful at all to your application. It's good that you sought advice from physicians, but criminal history is a hot issue with AAMC right now and standards are tightening every year. It's radically different than it was just a few years ago.

For licensure, you'll definitely be asked about expunged misdemeanors, and you'll have to disclose them. If a school asks about arrests or expunged misdemeanors, I would definitely disclose them regardless of your attorney's advice. In some states, perhaps including yours, they can't ask... but, in other states, expungement protections apply only to job applications - and a school application is not covered by employment law. So, if a school asks, you can generally assume that they have a legal right to ask in the state in which they are located.

I don't think you have a huge worry, however. Good luck.

So, even though I was never convicted of anything but was arrested/charged with felonies you think I would have problems when it comes time for a license? I really don't think so, I did nothing wrong and everything was dropped and sealed. The way you make it sound I will be punished for something that I didn't do. I wasn't even found "not-guilty"--everything was simply dismissed/dropped by the DA when they found out what was actually happening. I don't intend to list a dam thing--I didn't on apps and I won't come license time, I shouldn't have to explain myself for a prosecutor who wanted to get hasty with the system.

 

[Non-TradTulsa]

So, even though I was never convicted of anything but was arrested/charged with felonies you think I would have problems when it comes time for a license? I really don't think so, I did nothing wrong and everything was dropped and sealed. The way you make it sound I will be punished for something that I didn't do. I wasn't even found "not-guilty"--everything was simply dismissed/dropped by the DA when they found out what was actually happening. I don't intend to list a dam thing--I didn't on apps and I won't come license time, I shouldn't have to explain myself for a prosecutor who wanted to get hasty with the system.

I did not say you'd have problems - what I said was, arrests and charges, sealed or not, are reportable in many states, and they are. I said nothing about your being punished. If you weren't convicted and the charges were dropped, I would imagine a state board would drop the issue pretty quickly. However, in many states (including mine), they have a legal right to know about any arrest for any reason - regardless out of the outcome. It's a far more rigorous process than applying to medical school was.

This is the reality of practicing medicine - the fact is, the interest of public safety in the practice of medicine far outweighs your right to privacy when it comes to investigating physician license applicants. Many physicians have minor records and they are not "punished" or kept from practicing medicine - but they had to report those records. And, my friend, if you choose to defy the system and not list your arrests that did not result in convictions - I can tell you exactly what may happen, because I was on the administration side for 20 years before I went to medical school. First of all, arrests are never fully sealed. They may be sealed at the state level, but the FBI/NCIC will have a federal record forever. If it's sealed, it may not be publicly available, but it is subpeonable. What may happen is that your license board doesn't detect that you haven't told them the complete truth if they only check state records - but the first time you have even a tiny malpractice claim, a decent malpractice attorney will dig until he finds it. Then... guess what? Your credibility is shot in the malpractice case because you are now a proven perpetrator of fraud... and then your state board files charges to revoke your license for that same fraudulent application.

You may feel you shouldn't have to list your dropped charges (and, as a matter of fairness, I actually agree with you - but that's not how it is) - in some states you don't... but in many others, you do. Should you choose not to, I would suggest you peruse the discipline records of the medical board of a few states. You may be shocked that nearly every medical board has now made disciplinary actions public documents. You'll see numerous charges for fraud in initial license application. It's a nightmare that can cost you your license - whereas, had you told the truth, it probably would have been a 10-minute conversation with the secretary of your state medical board and that would have been the end of it. State boards have cracked-down in a major way on fraud.

 

[Barts]

I did not say you'd have problems - what I said was, arrests and charges, sealed or not, are reportable in many states, and they are. I said nothing about your being punished. If you weren't convicted and the charges were dropped, I would imagine a state board would drop the issue pretty quickly. However, in many states (including mine), they have a legal right to know about any arrest for any reason - regardless out of the outcome. It's a far more rigorous process than applying to medical school was.

This is the reality of practicing medicine - the fact is, the interest of public safety in the practice of medicine far outweighs your right to privacy when it comes to investigating physician license applicants. Many physicians have minor records and they are not "punished" or kept from practicing medicine - but they had to report those records. And, my friend, if you choose to defy the system and not list your arrests that did not result in convictions - I can tell you exactly what may happen, because I was on the administration side for 20 years before I went to medical school. First of all, arrests are never fully sealed. They may be sealed at the state level, but the FBI/NCIC will have a federal record forever. If it's sealed, it may not be publicly available, but it is subpeonable. What may happen is that your license board doesn't detect that you haven't told them the complete truth if they only check state records - but the first time you have even a tiny malpractice claim, a decent malpractice attorney will dig until he finds it. Then... guess what? Your credibility is shot in the malpractice case because you are now a proven perpetrator of fraud... and then your state board files charges to revoke your license for that same fraudulent application.

You may feel you shouldn't have to list your dropped charges (and, as a matter of fairness, I actually agree with you - but that's not how it is) - in some states you don't... but in many others, you do. Should you choose not to, I would suggest you peruse the discipline records of the medical board of a few states. You may be shocked that nearly every medical board has now made disciplinary actions public documents. You'll see numerous charges for fraud in initial license application. It's a nightmare that can cost you your license - whereas, had you told the truth, it probably would have been a 10-minute conversation with the secretary of your state medical board and that would have been the end of it. State boards have cracked-down in a major way on fraud.

Sorry if my post that you are replying to came off as rude, I was tired when I wrote it and after looking at it again I could have written it a little better. I appreciate your information, it's just that I was told basically the opposite of what you are saying (and I believe you are stating what you have been told or witnessed) by the DA, the Judge, and the FBI. When I did my background check through the FBI and it came back as "no criminal record found" I contacted them and asked them who would be able to view the sealed records. Malpractice attorney's and licensing boards were not on the short list that I was given-who knows, maybe things have changed that much since this occured. I do however appreciate your advice and perhaps when the time comes I will list them anyway, I did nothing wrong so have nothing to hide, but at the same time I also feel I shouldn't have to explain myself for something I didn't do.

Anyway, sorry if my original post came off as rude and thanks for the advice

 

[Non-TradTulsa]

Anyway, sorry if my original post came off as rude and thanks for the advice

I regret the somewhat harsh tone that I used and I could have been a little more gentle in my post. I really appreciate your post <handshake>. I know that it blows, but this is how the real world of medical licensing is - and you have to be careful to talk to an attorney who is an expert in medical licensure before you make decisions. I'd just encourage you to comply with the law, even if you'll probably never be caught. I honestly don't think you'll have any problems, though, and I wish you the best of luck.

 

[Barts]

I regret the somewhat harsh tone that I used and I could have been a little more gentle in my post. I really appreciate your post <handshake>. I know that it blows, but this is how the real world of medical licensing is - and you have to be careful to talk to an attorney who is an expert in medical licensure before you make decisions. I'd just encourage you to comply with the law, even if you'll probably never be caught. I honestly don't think you'll have any problems, though, and I wish you the best of luck.

It's all good In all honesty I'm glad you replied the way you did, it got me thinking about this more (which I probably should have done 5 years ago). Anyway, I dug up the paperwork from this mess This all took place in 1994 (not as many charges as I thought--4 of them. 3 class 5 and 1 class 3 for theft and forgery) and the end result of all charges was something called "Motion Nolle Prosequi", which I assume just means the prosecution dropped it. I also did some checking on various state licensing web sites. Some ask only about convictions, while a few ask about ANY charges, dismissed or not. They do also put a disclaimer that says something along the lines of "simply being charged of a crime will not prohibit licensing". So as you suggested, when the time comes I think I will be better off just disclosing that I was charged with something in the past. I really can't imagine that something I didn't do would keep me from getting a license (if it does what happened to "innocent until proven guilty") Anyway, I hadn't looked into this in years so I'm glad I am checking it out now. Thanks

 

[Doctor Bagel]

It's all good In all honesty I'm glad you replied the way you did, it got me thinking about this more (which I probably should have done 5 years ago). Anyway, I dug up the paperwork from this mess This all took place in 1994 (not as many charges as I thought--4 of them. 3 class 5 and 1 class 3 for theft and forgery) and the end result of all charges was something called "Motion Nolle Prosequi", which I assume just means the prosecution dropped it. I also did some checking on various state licensing web sites. Some ask only about convictions, while a few ask about ANY charges, dismissed or not. They do also put a disclaimer that says something along the lines of "simply being charged of a crime will not prohibit licensing". So as you suggested, when the time comes I think I will be better off just disclosing that I was charged with something in the past. I really can't imagine that something I didn't do would keep me from getting a license (if it does what happened to "innocent until proven guilty") Anyway, I hadn't looked into this in years so I'm glad I am checking it out now. Thanks

So now you have me really curious about your story. I'm betting it's fascinating but was probably pretty miserable at the time. I agree, though, that no one is going to withhold your license for charges that were dropped -- if they did, you could probably sue them. But, yeah, if they ask for them to be disclosed, then you've got to disclose them.

 

[Barts]

So now you have me really curious about your story. I'm betting it's fascinating but was probably pretty miserable at the time. I agree, though, that no one is going to withhold your license for charges that were dropped -- if they did, you could probably sue them. But, yeah, if they ask for them to be disclosed, then you've got to disclose them.

It was nerve racking at the time! Long story short (I'll try anyway)

I was working for a large corporation that has many retail outlets. One of the other employees found out my employee pin number (all transactions were initiated with the employee pin number). This employee had been doing false transactions (refunds and the like) using my employee number. The corporations fraud department noticed a lot of large transactions like this from one certain employee-me. They contacted the regional manager and said this looked like some type of theft. I went into work one day and there was the district manager and about 3 other people I had never seen. All of the transactions led to me so *obviously* I was guilty. I was dismissed until their investigation was complete. They contacted the police and with what evidence they had I was charged with the felony counts of theft (and I think one of them was fraud) and forgery (signing refund slips).

I talked to someone at the DA's office and they suggested I get an attorney, which I did. There was a warrant out for my arrest so of course I was going to the police station to turn myself in (I really didn't want police showing up at my home to arrest me). The day before this was to occur my attorney was looking over all of the transactions and noticed a problem. On one of the days I was scheduled to work there were two of these refunds done first thing that morning. Problem was I didn't work that morning because I had a doctor's appointment. My attorney contacted the DA's office and told them of this, they THEN decided perhaps they should investigate more.

To wrap this up with out going on and on (too late huh) The guilty employee was stupid enough to start using another employee's pin number to keep doing the same thing. Luckily though (at this point) this type of transaction was being watched for. The manager of the store was able to catch the employee "red handed" and the employee finally confessed to all of it. A drug problem was the reason the employee gave for doing this. So, the DA, the corporation, and even the initial police investigator all apologized to me. The company offered me my job back and paid for all charges to be sealed. My attorney said I needed to get a civil attorney and sue them, I never did.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Yikes, that sounds like a complete nightmare! Sorry that happened to you, but I'm glad it worked out. Cases like yours are a pretty clear example imo of why boards shouldn't ask or consider charges that were brought that didn't result in a conviction. According to our legal system, you are innocent until found guilty. I just don't see how it's ethical or legal for a licensing system to penalize you for having a charge placed against you that's later dropped.

 

[Barts]

Yikes, that sounds like a complete nightmare! Sorry that happened to you, but I'm glad it worked out. Cases like yours are a pretty clear example imo of why boards shouldn't ask or consider charges that were brought that didn't result in a conviction. According to our legal system, you are innocent until found guilty. I just don't see how it's ethical or legal for a licensing system to penalize you for having a charge placed against you that's later dropped.

Yeah, it was hard on my health, just so nervous and stuff. I agree that charges should not be held against you and this really is a perfect example of why they shouldn't. I really feel that any board that would deny me based on this should be able to face some sort of action. I did nothing wrong and I should not be punished for it.

 

[neurodoc]

Yeah, it was hard on my health, just so nervous and stuff. I agree that charges should not be held against you and this really is a perfect example of why they shouldn't. I really feel that any board that would deny me based on this should be able to face some sort of action. I did nothing wrong and I should not be punished for it.

Sounds like you were wrongly charged and the charges were properly dropped. However, if you are asked on an application for med school or an application for a state medical license to disclose any arrests or criminal charges filed, you ought to answer honestly, with an explanation. The reason is that if you DON'T, you could get in trouble for lying on your application. Since most of these applications contain some sort of warning to the effect that "I declare under penalty of perjury that my answers have been completely truthful, etc," being less than truthful opens you up to new charges of a criminal act (perjury). IANAL, and I may be wrong, but I don't think so. For all I know, a real lawyer might advise you differently. If so, I'd suggest you get a second opinion. If your lawyer turns out to be mistaken, you might be able to sue him for the damages you suffer. I suspect that if you ask him to back up his "non-disclosure" recommendation with a solid written guarantee to compensate you for the consequences of taking his advice that he will refuse to do so.

Nick