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CRNAs and Pain

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To all you non-believers about the threat of CRNAs- I know that this will get some of you all's blood boiling (esp some of us residents & future residents).

I bring it up on here, cuz I know a lot of us are VERY interested in doing a pain fellowship in the future. Just another reason WE all need to get fired up about political action.


CRNAs are beginning to be allowed to perform pain procedures and attend workshops
. I gotta hand one thing to the CRNAs, they definitely know what to get their hands into to cookie jar.

http://www.anesth.uiowa.edu/rasci/workshops/index.html

This topic is being discussed as a rather serious issue in the Pain Forum.

just an FYI
 
"I gotta hand one thing to the CRNAs, they definitely know what to get their hands into to cookie jar."

Because they're allowed to by MDs.

The main issue is containing them within the MD/DO system. As long as they are under the docs, they'll be no threat. My wife is a NP and she does bone marrows by herself. Nobody over there is worried about it, either.

If IU were concerned, they'd probably not allow the CRNAs into the classes. It's not like they will be allowed to bill without a doc's license, etc.

In other words, they're still going to be dependent upon their doctor for their right to practice.
 
ecCA1 said:
.

In other words, they're still going to be dependent upon their doctor for their right to practice.
for right now.

but the concern that's even being raised in the Pain forum, is what happens down the road? Sure we can try containing them, but are pain procedures etc dealing with SPINAL cords, something one wants non-physicians doing? Personally, I think a person that's given some autonomy is always going to want more. Case and point. And please don't take offense to this since your wife is a NP.

But...Initially, primary care docs believed allowing NPs to write presciptions was no biggie since a doc had to co-sign. To mk a long story short, now NPs in certain states have almost full autonomy and can write scripts w/o co-signing.
 
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The main issue is containing them within the MD/DO system. As long as they are under the docs, they'll be no threat. My wife is a NP and she does bone marrows by herself. Nobody over there is worried about it, either.

I'm in an academic institution and the bone marrows-lots of them-are done by lab techs.
 
At the risk of sounding like chicken little... this is a real threat. I say this because there is a CRNA in Louisiana who has effectively petitioned the board of nursing to grant him the right to practice pain independently under the scope of practice laws defined by the nursing board.

Luckily, the pain docs and Louisiana board of medicine are all over this one and have filed amicus curare (sp?) suits to explain to the court that what the nurses are doing consitute the practice of medicine.

With all due respect, this is no where near an NP doing bone marrows under an MD/DO. This is a CRNA diagnosing, interpreting imaging studies, and performing invasive procedures on patients without medical direction.

Check out the pain boards for more details and the court filings:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=247718

If Anesthesiologists and Pain Docs let this one slip, we might as well pack up and go home! 👎
 
ecCA1 said:
"I gotta hand one thing to the CRNAs, they definitely know what to get their hands into to cookie jar."

Because they're allowed to by MDs.

The main issue is containing them within the MD/DO system. As long as they are under the docs, they'll be no threat. My wife is a NP and she does bone marrows by herself. Nobody over there is worried about it, either.

If IU were concerned, they'd probably not allow the CRNAs into the classes. It's not like they will be allowed to bill without a doc's license, etc.

In other words, they're still going to be dependent upon their doctor for their right to practice.


I personally know very few CRNA's that are interested in pain and these guys live in BFE. The MD's of the town actually requested that the CRNA's there get additional pain training so they could send pt's to too 2 them for blocks. There is no pain MD around for miles.

Also CRNA's may bill Medicare Part B as we speak in every state so get your facts straight. Those that work in the ACT model just allow the MD to bill for their services while they get paid a salary.
 
TofuBalls said:
At the risk of sounding like chicken little... this is a real threat. I say this because there is a CRNA in Louisiana who has effectively petitioned the board of nursing to grant him the right to practice pain independently under the scope of practice laws defined by the nursing board.

Luckily, the pain docs and Louisiana board of medicine are all over this one and have filed amicus curare (sp?) suits to explain to the court that what the nurses are doing consitute the practice of medicine.

With all due respect, this is no where near an NP doing bone marrows under an MD/DO. This is a CRNA diagnosing, interpreting imaging studies, and performing invasive procedures on patients without medical direction.

Check out the pain boards for more details and the court filings:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=247718

If Anesthesiologists and Pain Docs let this one slip, we might as well pack up and go home! 👎

Without question. Why is there not more talk about supporting the AA movement? It seems to me MDA's as a group could affect the potential threat of CRNA's taking more and more by getting behind these extenders that would not be able practice independently - and are not charging the Capital Building to do so. We can't do anything about the CRNAs that are with us now, but we can decide who we hire, and whose training we support.
 
TofuBalls said:
At the risk of sounding like chicken little... this is a real threat. I say this because there is a CRNA in Louisiana who has effectively petitioned the board of nursing to grant him the right to practice pain independently under the scope of practice laws defined by the nursing board.

Luckily, the pain docs and Louisiana board of medicine are all over this one and have filed amicus curare (sp?) suits to explain to the court that what the nurses are doing consitute the practice of medicine.

With all due respect, this is no where near an NP doing bone marrows under an MD/DO. This is a CRNA diagnosing, interpreting imaging studies, and performing invasive procedures on patients without medical direction.

Technically, Louisiana Nurse Practice Act (section 9:30) requires CRNAs to work under the supervision and direction of an MD or DDS. Louisiana does not have CRNAs working free of MD/DDS oversight.

This CRNA doing facet blocks is working in such circumstances and has an MD in his chain of command. He isn't diagnosing, etc, but just doing pain blocks on pts referred to him by physicians.

His petition to the state board of nursing was to just insure his actions were not in violation the nurse practice act. He wanted the BON's review and approval of his actions to make sure they were within his scope of practice as written in state law.
 
trinityalumnus said:
Technically, Louisiana Nurse Practice Act (section 9:30) requires CRNAs to work under the supervision and direction of an MD or DDS. Louisiana does not have CRNAs working free of MD/DDS oversight.

This CRNA doing facet blocks is working in such circumstances and has an MD in his chain of command. He isn't diagnosing, etc, but just doing pain blocks on pts referred to him by physicians.

His petition to the state board of nursing was to just insure his actions were not in violation the nurse practice act. He wanted the BON's review and approval of his actions to make sure they were within his scope of practice as written in state law.

Well, I am not a lawyer but from what I read in the court filings, I do not recall anything said about physician supervision regarding this "new" scope of practice.

What I am is a soon to be Pain Medicine Fellow who will be joining a pain practice in south Louisiana in July 2007. In light of this, forgive me if I don't just take your word, his word (the CRNA's), or the nursing board's word that it "was to just insure his actions were not in violation the nurse practice act." I have too much invested in this to just believe that it was a CYA thing for him.

I have sat back and watched my home state, more so the current Governor (Remember Katrina), ban AA practice in LA with language in her proclaimation directly from the AANA. I will certainly not sit back and allow someone to practice Pain Medicine, a recognized medical subspecialty without proper medical training just because the Nursing Board of LA says it is so. What is next? Will the Nursing Board let surgical first assistant nurses start clipping aneurysms in rural Louisiana Parishes becuase there isn't a neurosurgeon within a 20 mile radius?

Also, if someone uses the argument that there aren't enough Pain Doc's in rural LA and therefore require physician extenders... that is absolute garbage! You will never attract subspecialty providers to underserved areas by changing practice laws to allow physician extenders to compete against physicians. You probably will be able to attract them to visit as expert witnesses.
 
TofuBalls said:
Also, if someone uses the argument that there aren't enough Pain Doc's in rural LA and therefore require physician extenders... that is absolute garbage! You will never attract subspecialty providers to underserved areas by changing practice laws to allow physician extenders to compete against physicians. You probably will be able to attract them to visit as expert witnesses.


well said.. I agree.. I never understood that argument.. Well there arent enough docs.. so let nurses do the job.. assinine.. So are the people in rural america not good enough for the expertise of a physician?? all the asa has to do is go on a campaign and inform the country thats whats going on.. We'll have every patient request an anesthesiologist.. that will put an end to the independent medical practice of nurses..
 
stephend7799 said:
well said.. I agree.. I never understood that argument.. Well there arent enough docs.. so let nurses do the job.. assinine.. So are the people in rural america not good enough for the expertise of a physician?? all the asa has to do is go on a campaign and inform the country thats whats going on.. We'll have every patient request an anesthesiologist.. that will put an end to the independent medical practice of nurses..

So....what do you tell the folks who live in rural American....where physicians of certain specialty won't practice in????

Do you just tell those folks...."you're screwed!"....and call it a victory for the almight ASA?
 
You encourage physicians to work in these areas on at least a part time basis with incentives, reasonable locums contracts with insurance coverage, and provide them with more reasons to want to go to rural areas. At this time, what will motivate a physician to leave a good position to practice in a largely non-paying, medicare/medicaid area?

Not much. Get creative. Work there for a tax break. Work there for some type of government credit for other endeavors. Free college education for your kids if you devote at least a few weeks of your time each year practicing in an underserved area. ANYTHING to provide rural communities with appropriate PHYSICIAN care.

Don't ask them to accept a midlevel's salary or less, WITHOUT INSURANCE COVERAGE provided by the facility (unlike that which is afforded to midlevels), and sacrifice an income potential that the average physician spends 12 years earning the right to be in position to earn. Yes we need more physicians in rural practice, but it shouldn't be at the cost of the physician that already has sacrificed time and money giving themselves the skills and knowledge to provide that level of care.
 
UTSouthwestern said:
You encourage physicians to work in these areas on at least a part time basis with incentives, reasonable locums contracts with insurance coverage, and provide them with more reasons to want to go to rural areas. At this time, what will motivate a physician to leave a good position to practice in a largely non-paying, medicare/medicaid area?

Not much. Get creative. Work there for a tax break. Work there for some type of government credit for other endeavors. Free college education for your kids if you devote at least a few weeks of your time each year practicing in an underserved area. ANYTHING to provide rural communities with appropriate PHYSICIAN care.

Don't ask them to accept a midlevel's salary or less, WITHOUT INSURANCE COVERAGE provided by the facility (unlike that which is afforded to midlevels), and sacrifice an income potential that the average physician spends 12 years earning the right to be in position to earn. Yes we need more physicians in rural practice, but it shouldn't be at the cost of the physician that already has sacrificed time and money giving themselves the skills and knowledge to provide that level of care.
absolutely.

I think physician groups need to come up with more creative incentives also. UTSW, those are great ones that you mentioned. Something else I would add would be be free room/boarding. Also, to echo what you said. There would need to be ways to accomodate significant others and kids (by means of education,etc). Allow the wife to pursue a bachelors or masters at a state univ for a nominal/free fee. Or even loan forgiveness for the young anesthesiologist. The average med student (especially if they were single) wouldn't mind working in a rural area if that meant sianara to 200K in loans 😱

Just some thoughts.
 
militarymd said:
So....what do you tell the folks who live in rural American....where physicians of certain specialty won't practice in????

Do you just tell those folks...."you're screwed!"....and call it a victory for the almight ASA?

Yes they're screwed, but it has nothing to do with the ASA. That's absurd.

People who live in rural America make a choice to be there. That might be unfortunate for those who require specialty or sub-specialty medical care, but that's their choice.

So if you have an acute subdural, or a traumatic amputation, or a ruptured AAA, or any number of conditions, the fact that you live an hour or two or three from any significant level of medical care means that your chance of survival is less than someone with quick access to high quality care in the big city. That's not the fault of the ASA or any branch of organized medicine. It's just a simple fact.
 
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militarymd said:
So....what do you tell the folks who live in rural American....where physicians of certain specialty won't practice in????

Do you just tell those folks...."you're screwed!"....and call it a victory for the almight ASA?


No, you tell them to go where the "pain med" is up to par. Pain treatment is not an acute service in this sense. Just b/c these people choose to live in a rural area does not mean that they need to accept less than par treatment. In the case of crna's performing anesthesia in these areas, this is necessary. Acute cases come up and need to be dealt with. But pain medicine is not that way. These pts can travel to a urban area if need be.
This would be a real disservice to the public, IMHO.
Many people in rural areas don't understand this and moreso don't care b/c they don't expect to need the service. But when they do need pain medicine they are not going to get what they need.
 
militarymd said:
So....what do you tell the folks who live in rural American....where physicians of certain specialty won't practice in????

Do you just tell those folks...."you're screwed!"....and call it a victory for the almight ASA?


well i guess if there are no eye doctors in that town.. according to your thinking.. we will let a nurse practicioner do cataracts and hope everything goes well....
 
UTSouthwestern said:
You encourage physicians to work in these areas on at least a part time basis with incentives, reasonable locums contracts with insurance coverage, and provide them with more reasons to want to go to rural areas. At this time, what will motivate a physician to leave a good position to practice in a largely non-paying, medicare/medicaid area?

Not much. Get creative. Work there for a tax break. Work there for some type of government credit for other endeavors. Free college education for your kids if you devote at least a few weeks of your time each year practicing in an underserved area. ANYTHING to provide rural communities with appropriate PHYSICIAN care.

Don't ask them to accept a midlevel's salary or less, WITHOUT INSURANCE COVERAGE provided by the facility (unlike that which is afforded to midlevels), and sacrifice an income potential that the average physician spends 12 years earning the right to be in position to earn. Yes we need more physicians in rural practice, but it shouldn't be at the cost of the physician that already has sacrificed time and money giving themselves the skills and knowledge to provide that level of care.

Those things are already being done....I know of many hospitals that have been trying for years to get a good anesthesiologist.......They just can't get them.....so should the hospital just shut down then?
 
militarymd said:
Those things are already being done....I know of many hospitals that have been trying for years to get a good anesthesiologist.......They just can't get them.....so should the hospital just shut down then?

I get 13 weeks off a year, which is too much.

PM me with some of these hospitals and I'll make them happy. And I'll tell them Mil sent me. 😀
 
militarymd said:
So....what do you tell the folks who live in rural American....where physicians of certain specialty won't practice in????

Do you just tell those folks...."you're screwed!"....and call it a victory for the almight ASA?


The question is, where do you draw the line?

I for one do not equate nurse anesthesia with pain medicine.

What about biomechanical assessment, psyche, opiate management, radiologic interpretation and advanced procedures (e.g. RF ablation, implantables, percutaneous discectomy, epiduroscopy, vertebro/kyphoplasty) many of which are surgical.
 
jwk said:
Yes they're screwed, but it has nothing to do with the ASA. That's absurd.

People who live in rural America make a choice to be there. That might be unfortunate for those who require specialty or sub-specialty medical care, but that's their choice.

So if you have an acute subdural, or a traumatic amputation, or a ruptured AAA, or any number of conditions, the fact that you live an hour or two or three from any significant level of medical care means that your chance of survival is less than someone with quick access to high quality care in the big city. That's not the fault of the ASA or any branch of organized medicine. It's just a simple fact.

You are corrcet about one thing. It is not the ASAs fault that these rural citizens choose to live where they do. However why should they not have access to care. Of course if you have a rupturing AAA and are in rural america you have a less chance to survive. Practitioners from nurses to surgeons are not going to be as competent as those in bigger cities used to that pt population.

However why should a pt. have to drive 3 hours to get a steroid injection that will last 15 min. If CRNA's can insert epidurals and spinals competently why is a CRNA steroid injection all of a sudden unsafe or subpar? JWK your view and attitude is outdated and few members of congress will support what you state. CRNA's are not just grabbing pts off the street and doing pain procedures people. MD/DO/DDS are consulting the CRNA for placement of the block only.
 
BIS said:
You are corrcet about one thing. It is not the ASAs fault that these rural citizens choose to live where they do. However why should they not have access to care. Of course if you have a rupturing AAA and are in rural america you have a less chance to survive. Practitioners from nurses to surgeons are not going to be as competent as those in bigger cities used to that pt population.

However why should a pt. have to drive 3 hours to get a steroid injection that will last 15 min. If CRNA's can insert epidurals and spinals competently why is a CRNA steroid injection all of a sudden unsafe or subpar? JWK your view and attitude is outdated and few members of congress will support what you state. CRNA's are not just grabbing pts off the street and doing pain procedures people. MD/DO/DDS are consulting the CRNA for placement of the block only.


Your lack of knowledge just proves why, to me. I had many pts sent to me by these MD/DO/DDS's that you are talking about that were not candidates for steroids. They were miss diagnosed often. They had avascular necrosis of the fem. head from steroid dose packs prescribed by these physicians and were sent for epidural steroids. The list goes on and on. The risks are real. You can't safely just be a block shop doing whatever blocks some FP sent the pt for. You need to know when to do a block, what block to do, and more importantly when not to block. My job here is not to teach you how to do pain medicine so I will end it hee. But you can not argue this topic with your knowledge base.

PS: If your steroid injections only last 15 minutes then you don't need to be doing them. The more I read your response the more I realize that I am wasting my time cause you are clueless.
 
Noyac said:
Your lack of knowledge just proves why, to me. I had many pts sent to me by these MD/DO/DDS's that you are talking about that were not candidates for steroids. They were miss diagnosed often. They had avascular necrosis of the fem. head from steroid dose packs prescribed by these physicians and were sent for epidural steroids. The list goes on and on. The risks are real. You can't safely just be a block shop doing whatever blocks some FP sent the pt for. You need to know when to do a block, what block to do, and more importantly when not to block. My job here is not to teach you how to do pain medicine so I will end it hee. But you can not argue this topic with your knowledge base.

PS: If your steroid injections only last 15 minutes then you don't need to be doing them. The more I read your response the more I realize that I am wasting my time cause you are clueless.

And that, folks, is what it sounds like when the axe falls.
Unfortunately, this time it dirtied itself falling through a pile of soft excrement, but nobody ever said that being an ax was easy.
 
Noyac said:
Your lack of knowledge just proves why, to me. I had many pts sent to me by these MD/DO/DDS's that you are talking about that were not candidates for steroids. They were miss diagnosed often. They had avascular necrosis of the fem. head from steroid dose packs prescribed by these physicians and were sent for epidural steroids. The list goes on and on. The risks are real. You can't safely just be a block shop doing whatever blocks some FP sent the pt for. You need to know when to do a block, what block to do, and more importantly when not to block. My job here is not to teach you how to do pain medicine so I will end it hee. But you can not argue this topic with your knowledge base.

PS: If your steroid injections only last 15 minutes then you don't need to be doing them. The more I read your response the more I realize that I am wasting my time cause you are clueless.

You are right. I am clueless when it comes to chronic pain. Didnt feel that I portrayed expertise in my post. IF so then my bad. I feel people need to have limits on their practice no matter what they do. No a CRNA or MD at that should be doing something they can not confidently do. While providing sedation for pain mgmt doc that do blocks in the OR under fluro I have personally witnessed the expertise and effectivenss of these docs. They are great. Not sure about you commenting on a 15min injection time because I witness it often. Maybe 30mins total in the room but for the pain doc many times only 15min.

I agree you just cant run a block shop. Sadly there are way more MD block shops than CRNA's. I think the real issue why you dont see rural pain docs is profit. I find it hard to believe that any pain doc is going to take huge salary cuts to practice out in the country. I think that rural practictioner has to know their limits and not try to be a cowboy. No reason to castrate me man, I am learning also.
 
Originally posted by tofuballs:
I have sat back and watched my home state, more so the current Governor (Remember Katrina), ban AA practice in LA with language in her proclaimation directly from the AANA. I will certainly not sit back and allow someone to practice Pain Medicine, a recognized medical subspecialty without proper medical training just because the Nursing Board of LA says it is so. What is next? Will the Nursing Board let surgical first assistant nurses start clipping aneurysms in rural Louisiana Parishes becuase there isn't a neurosurgeon within a 20 mile radius?

Also, if someone uses the argument that there aren't enough Pain Doc's in rural LA and therefore require physician extenders... that is absolute garbage! You will never attract subspecialty providers to underserved areas by changing practice laws to allow physician extenders to compete against physicians. You probably will be able to attract them to visit as expert witnesses.[/QUOTE]
Have a friend at LSUHSC that sent me this article you may be interested in.
Doctor shortage widens
Primary care physicians becoming more scarce
Marsha Sills
[email protected]

The displacement of medical training programs after Hurricane Katrina could change the way the state trains doctors and possibly where those physicians decide to practice.
Even before the hurricanes, the state faced a predicament. Nearly 86 percent of its parishes faced a shortage of primary care doctors. These doctors deliver babies, treat flu symptoms, prescribe antibiotics for your child - the basics of health care.


An aging cadre of primary care doctors, a declining number of medical school graduates who pursue primary care and the unmet needs of rural areas mean the state needs to get more creative in attracting doctors to care for those living outside the state's major cities.

About 80 percent of doctors choose to practice within a 100-mile radius of where they finish their medical training. So, it's imperative that the state continue to offer residency programs outside of New Orleans, said Dr. James Falterman Jr., medical director of University Medical Center, one of the state's medical training hospitals.
"The value of having these people train here is self-evident," Falterman said.

A Price Waterhouse Coopers report commissioned by the Louisiana Recovery Authority on "Louisiana Healthcare Delivery and Financing System" suggested that the state disperse its primary care programs across the state to community hospitals. Too many programs are focused in New Orleans, the report said. However, the report suggests that specialty programs be based in Shreveport, Baton Rouge and New Orleans.

Both of University Medical Center's primary care residency programs - family medicine and internal medicine - are at capacity, Falterman said. The hospital also has picked up several programs that moved from New Orleans after Katrina, including the geriatric medicine fellowship program. UMC has applied for accreditation to start its own geriatric medicine program to respond to a shortage, said Dr. Lainie Moncada, associate director of the fellowship program. In July, Moncada will become the program's director.

"There is a growing number of geriatric patients," Moncada said. "We're trying to help meet that need, and the need is growing all the time."


Building a work force
Building a work force of physicians for the state's future is more important after the hurricanes. Training hospitals in New Orleans closed, said Dr. Rick Streiffer, who heads the family and community medicine program at Tulane University School of Medicine.
The state needs to start grooming its future doctors as early as junior high school and look at its admission policies to help recruit more interested students, Streiffer said.

"In rural areas," Streiffer said, "that's a challenge because those students usually don't have an environment that exposes them to those careers and doesn't make them competitive candidates. ... It's not that they're dumb or won't make good physicians, but their standardized test scores don't look as good."

Lafayette isn't one of the parishes considered to have a primary care shortage. But Iberia, St. Martin, Acadia, Vermilion and St. Mary parishes are designated as in high need of primary care doctors.

Accountability measures also need to be considered to make an impact on the work force, Streiffer said.

"I will have to say that our state schools have not been held accountable to produce the physicians that the state needs in specialties, and somehow people in the Legislature have to hold them accountable," Streiffer said.


Homegrown doctors
Six of the internal medicine residents who will finish the program this summer will stay in Acadiana, said Dr. Leela Lakshmiprasad, the residency program's director.
Dr. Kerry Schexnaider of Abbeville is one of the six who will practice in Acadiana, working in his home parish of Vermilion. Schexnaider had planned to become an emergency room physician and travel as a doctor on cruise ships. But that plan was changed after he began his internal medicine rotations. The patient interaction and making an impact at home appealed to him more.

"There's a big need in my hometown in Vermilion Parish," Schexnaider said.

A few years ago, the medical schools in New Orleans and Lafayette offered to pay for the third and fourth year of a doctors' training at UMC-Lafayette in the primary care programs. Other incentive programs that pay school loans and even offer visa waivers to international doctors have made some impact in staffing rural needs.

Dr. Nancy Briley Walker plans to return to her hometown of Crowley to practice family medicine. Walker has another year to finish her residency at UMC's Family Medicine Clinic. Before she began her residency in family medicine, Walker was set to specialize in pathology.

"I like that you get to see the outcome of things," Walker said. "It's very rewarding."

While the state is considering reform recommendations, it may not be as easy to convince students to choose primary care fields or to move to rural areas.


Quality of life
In a way, money and workload play a role in why some medical residents opt to specialize in a field, said Dr. Arshad Asghar, a nephrology fellow now at UMC after Katrina moved him and his wife, Dr. Saira Jamal, a geriatric fellow, out of New Orleans.
"The main reason why most specialize is you have to see at least 40 patients a day as a primary care physician and make less money. As a specialist, you still may see 40, but you make more money," Asghar said. "It's the poor design of the Medicare code."

Asghar was working as a hospitalist in Indiana before he and his wife made the move to continue their studies in New Orleans. His longtime interest in kidney disease led him to specialize, he said.

But Asghar and his wife have no intention of staying in Lafayette. If they stay in Louisiana, they'd rather live in a bigger city, either Baton Rouge or, possibly, New Orleans.

As with any profession, quality-of-life issues affect a doctor's decision about where he decides to practice.

Dr. Carlos Mendez is the co-chief resident in the internal medicine program at UMC. He's from Miami, but moving back to a larger metro area doesn't entice him after living in a mid-sized city like Lafayette. He wants to stay here with his family because of the school system.

"I had planned to return home, but once I started here, I like the quality of life and that a smaller city gives you the chance to get to know patients. You get to bond with them more," Mendez said.


Demanding hours
Dr. Max LaMarche has been a part of LSU's medical school faculty for about 30 years and has witnessed the waning interest in primary care among new doctors. He's chief of internal medicine at UMC.
With each group of residents, he anticipates that at least half will choose to specialize rather than practice primary care.

"To be a primary care physician means working 12 to 14 hours a day to be considered a good physician and to be successful," LaMarche said. "It's demanding. You have to have that devotion. You can't make someone go into primary care. You are a servant of the patient."

"You have a surgeon who does a surgery in 45 minutes - $1,500. An internist or family care physician isn't going to make that in 45 minutes," LaMarche said.


The Katrina factor
The shortage of primary care professionals extends beyond physicians.
"We're short of practically everything - specialists, nurses, dentists, allied health professionals," said Dr. Perry Rigby, current chair of the state's Medical Education Commission and acting director of the LSU School of Medicine's hematology fellowship program.

"While primary care is primarily emphasized, it's not the only thing that is short and in some cases, it may be the least short, but that's more variable now by geography in Louisiana because of the shifts that took place with Katrina," Rigby said.

Katrina has affected any progress the state may have made in recruiting and retaining medical school graduates in the state. Students were dispersed throughout the state to continue their training, and some students found placements out of state.

How quickly more beds open at the teaching hospitals in New Orleans will be a major factor in retaining graduates, Rigby said.




Originally published May 14, 2006
 
I know how we can fix the problem of not enough primary care docs in Louisiana.

We can give unfettered scope of practice expansions to nurses and let them do everything that doctors can do! 🙄

I guarantee you its only a matter of time before you see the Lousiana state nursing board start to advocate for that, if they havent already
 
BIS said:
You are right. I am clueless when it comes to chronic pain. Didnt feel that I portrayed expertise in my post. IF so then my bad. I feel people need to have limits on their practice no matter what they do. No a CRNA or MD at that should be doing something they can not confidently do. While providing sedation for pain mgmt doc that do blocks in the OR under fluro I have personally witnessed the expertise and effectivenss of these docs. They are great. Not sure about you commenting on a 15min injection time because I witness it often. Maybe 30mins total in the room but for the pain doc many times only 15min.

I agree you just cant run a block shop. Sadly there are way more MD block shops than CRNA's. I think the real issue why you dont see rural pain docs is profit. I find it hard to believe that any pain doc is going to take huge salary cuts to practice out in the country. I think that rural practictioner has to know their limits and not try to be a cowboy. No reason to castrate me man, I am learning also.

Sure sounds like Nitecap to me.
 
BIS said:
You are right. I am clueless when it comes to chronic pain. Didnt feel that I portrayed expertise in my post. IF so then my bad. I feel people need to have limits on their practice no matter what they do. No a CRNA or MD at that should be doing something they can not confidently do. While providing sedation for pain mgmt doc that do blocks in the OR under fluro I have personally witnessed the expertise and effectivenss of these docs. They are great. Not sure about you commenting on a 15min injection time because I witness it often. Maybe 30mins total in the room but for the pain doc many times only 15min.
I agree you just cant run a block shop. Sadly there are way more MD block shops than CRNA's. I think the real issue why you dont see rural pain docs is profit. I find it hard to believe that any pain doc is going to take huge salary cuts to practice out in the country. I think that rural practictioner has to know their limits and not try to be a cowboy. No reason to castrate me man, I am learning also.

In your original post, you stated that the epidural steroid injection would last 15min. The procedure itself may take 15 minutes or less but they should last for weeks to months. Knowledge is key.

Yes there are some MD block shops. The answer however, is not to add crna block shops as well. This does not add any service to the public. The reason there are more block shops with MD than there are with crna's is b/c crna's can't and shouldn't be doing pain. Not that MD block shops are appropriate.
 
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I wasn't sure it was Nitecap at first, but then I read this.

BIS said:
You are right. I am clueless .....


Glad to see you again.

Have a good time in Vegas?

Was quiet here when you were gone.
 
jetproppilot said:
Sure sounds like Nitecap to me.


Sounds like nitecap but most definitely is not actually nitecap. This guy has been around forever. He comes and goes. And just when you think he is gone for good, he comes back again, always with the same theme.


EDIT : I misread JPP's post and thought he was referring to the previous post by macgyver, not BIS. BIS may be nitecap for all i know. Macgyver certainly isn't though.
 
This is not nitecap. IS any poster who opposes views here all of a sudden nitecap. Last week it was the screen name onetime, this week it is me? Get over nitecap all ready. Now that I have read past posts it seems that this guy really got to you all.
 
MDEntropy said:
Sounds like nitecap but most definitely is not actually nitecap. This guy has been around forever. He comes and goes. And just when you think he is gone for good, he comes back again, always with the same theme.

This guy has only been around since May 2006. I think everyone finds it odd when a brand new poster comes in here and begins arguing immediately on topics such as this. It is a bit suspicious.
 
MDEntropy said:
Sounds like nitecap but most definitely is not actually nitecap. This guy has been around forever.

?????

BIS
Member
1+ Posts

Join Date: May 2006
 
VA Hopeful Dr said:
This guy has only been around since May 2006. I think everyone finds it odd when a brand new poster comes in here and begins arguing immediately on topics such as this. It is a bit suspicious.


I can see your point but to be honest with you I did not think I was aurguing with anyone. Just stated an opinion.
 
I don't post much . . . but . . .

What is going on with nurses and others? It feels like there is a push to increase what nurses and other assistant providers can do. Optometrists want to perform LASIX, actually perform eye surgery. CRNAs want to be anesthesiologists and want to practice pain medicine, actually diagnose and treat medical conditions with medicine and procedures. PA's and NP's want to take over all of family practice and internal medicine, and even some emergency departments. The nurses in the ICU pretty much do what they want, write the orders, and then expect the MD attending to sign off on what they did to the patient several hours ago. Patients show up in the OB department with a nurse midwife and demand that the individual with less formal training deliver their baby.

Why don't we get rid of the MD's and require that nurses go through undergrad, nursing-MCAT, nursing medical school, nursing residency, nursing fellowship and then call them "Doctor Nurse." Oh . . . wait, or we could just give people the current gold standard of training, have them work hard to get into and through a real medical school and call them doctors. If a nurse wants to become a "Doctor Nurse" then they should go get a PhD or complete medical school and nursing school.

It is like a 14-year-old demanding that they be able to drive a car without getting an actual license, sure give them a little training and they will probably be able to drive to the store and back most of the time without incident. There is a reason we don't do this.

Is "most of the time" what we are shooting for in medicine?
 
mocdoc said:
I don't post much . . . but . . .

What is going on with nurses and others? It feels like there is a push to increase what nurses and other assistant providers can do. Optometrists want to perform LASIX, actually perform eye surgery. CRNAs want to be anesthesiologists and want to practice pain medicine, actually diagnose and treat medical conditions with medicine and procedures. PA's and NP's want to take over all of family practice and internal medicine, and even some emergency departments. The nurses in the ICU pretty much do what they want, write the orders, and then expect the MD attending to sign off on what they did to the patient several hours ago. Patients show up in the OB department with a nurse midwife and demand that the individual with less formal training deliver their baby.

Why don't we get rid of the MD's and require that nurses go through undergrad, nursing-MCAT, nursing medical school, nursing residency, nursing fellowship and then call them "Doctor Nurse." Oh . . . wait, or we could just give people the current gold standard of training, have them work hard to get into and through a real medical school and call them doctors. If a nurse wants to become a "Doctor Nurse" then they should go get a PhD or complete medical school and nursing school.

It is like a 14-year-old demanding that they be able to drive a car without getting an actual license, sure give them a little training and they will probably be able to drive to the store and back most of the time without incident. There is a reason we don't do this.

Is "most of the time" what we are shooting for in medicine?

Excellent point. Although I have yet to say anything in regards to nurses simply because I am just a humble man, it seems to me that they are starting to have some kind of "little man" complex and I'm getting kind of sick of it. Although most nurses do know their role and do it very well, it is the proverbial rotten apples that are making them all look bad. Why can't they just be happy with their very important roles in health care? Having said that, I also partially blame physicians for allowing them to talk their s h i t and lobby for rights that belong solely to physicians....that is, diagnosing and management of patients.
 
It has been mentioned before but just as being a flight attendant is not a valid career path to becoming an airline pilot, becoming a nurse (or physician extender) should not be a valid career path to practicing independently on par with physicians.
 
The point is this; the horse left the barn long ago w/ this issue. I'll tell you 1 reason how it started IMHO, ologist's realized that OB epi's accounted for a large % of time spent at the hosp. and a very small % of income. They handed OB over to CRNAs totally, on a silver platter ,in some areas (preop eval's, insertion, management etc..).The ologist's doing alot of this stay home or do whatever and still get a portion of income from that regional anesthetic. This has had a snowball effect in the way that CRNAs educational instuitutions are now required to teach various regional pain management techniques. After years it too late to come back and say "I'm needed here". I referring mainly to OB here. That's my .02 🙂
 
driverabu said:
Excellent point. Although I have yet to say anything in regards to nurses simply because I am just a humble man, it seems to me that they are starting to have some kind of "little man" complex and I'm getting kind of sick of it. Although most nurses do know their role and do it very well, it is the proverbial rotten apples that are making them all look bad. Why can't they just be happy with their very important roles in health care? Having said that, I also partially blame physicians for allowing them to talk their s h i t and lobby for rights that belong solely to physicians....that is, diagnosing and management of patients.
exactly. I think a lot has to do with older anesthesiologists trying to make the quick buck by having CRNAs fill in. nurses/crnas then proceeded to want more...enter current state of affairs.

unfortunately, it we the new generation *s* that will have to suffer.
 
A recent survey of 16,000 CRNA's revealed that less than 10% do any sort of chronic pain in their practice. Over 60% revealed freq neuraxial block placement in OB cases, while over 70% claimed to manage epidurals.

Yes it may be true that a few of the 33,000 CRNA's are doing some sort of pain procedure, however this practice and even desire is not shared by the other 30,000 CRNA's practicing in the real world.

Though I understand your threat I can honestly tell you that CRNA's are not dying to start doing pain procedures. Most are happy with the way things are now. Those that are doing pain live in rural areas. SOme were even sent to training programs by the local surgeons.
 
bestiller said:
... ologist's....The ologist's

What do Dermatologists have to do with this?

Or do you mean Radiologists?

Neurologists?

Wait, never mind, Pathologists, duh. Although, I still fail to see the connection.

So confusing.

Anesthesiologists don't call you all R-ses (pronounced "Arses" for the slow) although I guess we could start.

These invented abbreviations are such a pain the arse, no?
 
cloud9 said:
What do Dermatologists have to do with this?

Or do you mean Radiologists?

Neurologists?

Wait, never mind, Pathologists, duh. Although, I still fail to see the connection.

So confusing.

Anesthesiologists don't call you all R-ses (pronounced "Arses" for the slow) although I guess we could start.

These invented abbreviations are such a pain the arse, no?
CLOUD9 I am sorry this is an "anesthesiology forum" it's in alpabetical order; DERM, NEURO, AND PATH are farther down. I thought you would pick up on that. I / WILL / BE / MORE / CLEAR / NEXT / TIME. 🙂 I know it can be "confusing". 😉
 
bestiller said:
CLOUD9 I am sorry this is an "anesthesiology forum" it's in alpabetical order; DERM, NEURO, AND PATH are farther down. I thought you would pick up on that. I / WILL / BE / MORE / CLEAR / NEXT / TIME. 🙂 I know it can be "confusing". 😉

That was the confusing part. You are in an anesthesiology forum and you weren't speaking about anesthesiologists. Since you were using these made-up-terms, I made the logical connection that your entire post was completely devoid of rational thought and an invention of a tormented mind.

But it is all cleared up now. 😎 I didn't know if you were lost medical student or what. Medical students read this as well as residents, attending, R-ses etc.

Cheers.
 
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mocdoc said:
I don't post much . . . but . . .

What is going on with nurses and others? It feels like there is a push to increase what nurses and other assistant providers can do. Optometrists want to perform LASIX, actually perform eye surgery. CRNAs want to be anesthesiologists and want to practice pain medicine, actually diagnose and treat medical conditions with medicine and procedures. PA's and NP's want to take over all of family practice and internal medicine, and even some emergency departments. The nurses in the ICU pretty much do what they want, write the orders, and then expect the MD attending to sign off on what they did to the patient several hours ago. Patients show up in the OB department with a nurse midwife and demand that the individual with less formal training deliver their baby.

Why does this go on?? It's because either arent enough doctors to do the work, or there isnt time, or the doctors dont want to do the work. It's doctor groups who are hiring these people, and doctors who are letting nurses write their orders, and doctors who are taking extra money for "collaboration agreements" with midlevels. Doctors are overworked and underpaid, and in truth, there arent enough of them to go around.
 
VA Hopeful Dr said:
This guy has only been around since May 2006. I think everyone finds it odd when a brand new poster comes in here and begins arguing immediately on topics such as this. It is a bit suspicious.

Please see my edit to my original post. You are right. I apologize for my error.
 
BIS said:
A recent survey of 16,000 CRNA's revealed that less than 10% do any sort of chronic pain in their practice. Over 60% revealed freq neuraxial block placement in OB cases, while over 70% claimed to manage epidurals.

Yes it may be true that a few of the 33,000 CRNA's are doing some sort of pain procedure, however this practice and even desire is not shared by the other 30,000 CRNA's practicing in the real world.

Though I understand your threat I can honestly tell you that CRNA's are not dying to start doing pain procedures. Most are happy with the way things are now. Those that are doing pain live in rural areas. SOme were even sent to training programs by the local surgeons.

Do you have a reference for this?
 
SleepIsGood said:
for right now.

but the concern that's even being raised in the Pain forum, is what happens down the road? Sure we can try containing them, but are pain procedures etc dealing with SPINAL cords, something one wants non-physicians doing? Personally, I think a person that's given some autonomy is always going to want more. Case and point. And please don't take offense to this since your wife is a NP.

But...Initially, primary care docs believed allowing NPs to write presciptions was no biggie since a doc had to co-sign. To mk a long story short, now NPs in certain states have almost full autonomy and can write scripts w/o co-signing.

And are doing so successfully!