Cross Pollenation Question about CT/appy

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roja

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So, I thought about posting this over in EM, but I thought, why not go to the source? Right here on SDN.


In my institution, 90% of our surgical attendings want a CT before taking an appy to the OR, regardless of story. We have two who, if the story is classic, will take them to the OR.

So, if you have a 'great' story, CT or no CT?


(our radiologist also insist that an appy can only be diagnosed by CT with po and iv contrast, two hours after the po has been taken)

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So, I thought about posting this over in EM, but I thought, why not go to the source? Right here on SDN.


In my institution, 90% of our surgical attendings want a CT before taking an appy to the OR, regardless of story. We have two who, if the story is classic, will take them to the OR.

So, if you have a 'great' story, CT or no CT?


(our radiologist also insist that an appy can only be diagnosed by CT with po and iv contrast, two hours after the po has been taken)

As far as I understand it, the literature supports routine use of CT for the diagnosis of appendicitis today. I know maybe one surgeon in my institution who would take a patient to the OR without imaging if the patient had a classic history of appendicitis. He's done it about three times during my residency and he's been wrong all three times. One of the three times, to his credit, was the patient's husband who was the "Chairman of Surgery" at some fancy, schmancy hospital in his home country of India. "Young man," he said to me when I was the ED surgical consultant, "believe me when I say this is classic, classic appendicitis. I've been a surgeon for over 30 years!"

And the second of the three times was a Pathologist who insisted he had appendicitis and demanded to be cut without imaging. In as irritating a Bostonian's accent as one could bear to imagine, "Whaddayah talking 'bout? I went to Hahvahd Medical School and trained at Boston City Hospital and I know appendicitis when I see it!" He turned out to have a perforated cecal cancer, I think...

Anyway, having seen nothing but bad things happen because the surgeon decided to forego the imaging study, I'd probably require a CT before I operated for suspected appendicitis. Today's world is just too sue-the-surgeon happy for me to risk it just because you wanna clear out your ED faster. Sorry. :)
 
I don't want to clear out my ED faster. I think its in a patients best interest to image first. Lets you know if its ruptured, etc etc. 2 hours to image is nothing in the ED.

The other day, I had a young guy you had 'classic appy', who I scanned (tend to do this because I figure the surgical residents don't need to come write a note on patients without a definitive study) . He also didn't have insurance but made a decent living and didn't want the cost of surgery unless he definitively had appendicitis. The attending gave me crap for scanning a 'classic appy that didn't need a scan.'.

Hence, why I was asking what others were doing. Although I think the 'acceptable negative appy rate' is still taught dogmatically in school, if you have a patient with suspected appy, why not image and be sure? Just wanted to see what the outside world was doing.

(Actually, I don't really care about 'clearing out my ED'- especially at the risk of harming patients. I want to give my patients the best care. :) )
 
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When I'm on call, I don't scan all of mine, but I do scan anyone that might be equivocal to having something besides a simple appy. I do try to avoid CT's in children (long term radiation risk, although I still do it if I suspect an abscess that should be treated without OR), and of course pregnant women (start with an U/S). Even in the general population though, CT scanning provides a measurably increased risk of long term malignancy. One probably isn't going to get you, but the rapid increase in the number of scans being done "just to make sure" is going to keep our heme/onc people busy in about 15-20 years.

I personally don't mind being asked to see it first without a scan if it is classic, but my personal pet peeve is to be asked to see it before the scan is done, but the scan is already ordered. IMO, if you want to do the work-up, that's fine, call me when it's done. If you want me to do the workup, call before you have already told the patient they need a scan. Even bigger pet peeve, calling me when the patient can't be examined because they are on their way to or already in the scanner. Also not good when they've been scanned but you haven't looked at the results yet (invariably these are the ones with negative scans anyway).

Also, I now have been forced to take a couple of people to the OR that had radiologic "appendicitis" that had no or minimal abdominal pain. Most of these are clinically negative appys. I'm sure they are balanced by people that would have gotten negative appys (who I don't even get consulted on I'm guessing), who were saved an OR by their negative CT's and the very few that had true appendicitis (although one wonders if they wouldn't have been just fine if they had just been told to come back when their pain worsened and done then).

I'd say, do whatever your local culture is. It isn't wrong to get a CT or U/S on all potential appendicitis patients, but it probably isn't 100% necessary either and people who skip it aren't wrong either IMO. There is definitely literature and strong opinion on both sides.
 
Hmmm...the EDs mentioned here must call surgery early.

With the exception of peds, I cannot recall being asked to see a suspected appy that hasn't already been imaged. I'm sure I have, but it would have definitely been an anomaly.

My feeling is that I don't need a scan in a male with a classic story and exam. Medical-legal issues? Perhaps some shark out there can try and make a case if the appy is negative but I think our training and knowing the limitations of the scan as well as the possible complications in missing or delaying the diagnosis, means the preponderance of evidence is ours.

Besides, I have seen more negative appys based on "cannot rule out acute appenditicis, clinical correlation recommended" than in the case of a patient with classic signs and symptoms.:rolleyes:
 
In my gen surg years it seemed to depend upon what time you called the attending. Anytime after midnight, the attending wanted to go ahead with a scan so they could stay in bed until morning.
 
Winged- Your right. I almost NEVER call until I have an image. A few years ago, I called a number of times before imaging on the really classic cases (defined in my book as 'text book'=young male, epigastric->RLQ, elevated wbc, fever, anorexia.) and got tired of being to scan. Unfortunately for the minority of our surgeons who will take those cases without a scan, we have to filter who is on call through our residents, kind of a waste of time. So I scan, then call.

Of course, our surgeons stay pretty busy so I don't want to harass them, waste thier time or mine, getting an early consult that ends up the same: scan.

I was just curious what people outside of my own institution where doing.
 
Winged- Your right. I almost NEVER call until I have an image. A few years ago, I called a number of times before imaging on the really classic cases (defined in my book as 'text book'=young male, epigastric->RLQ, elevated wbc, fever, anorexia.) and got tired of being to scan. Unfortunately for the minority of our surgeons who will take those cases without a scan, we have to filter who is on call through our residents, kind of a waste of time. So I scan, then call.

Well, of course the ED is darned if they do, darned if they don't!;)
 
Well, no job is perfect. :) We are working hard to improve relationships with our consults through joint conferences etc.


course, it helps that our head of trauma surgery is the baddest, coolest, most handsomest surgeon out there. ;)
 
Pray tell, who is this person?

Lol. no dice. I must protect his identity. But he is adored by the ED. He is an amazing clinician, looks frighteningly tongue tying in a suit, and of course, did his trauma fellowship at Ryder, my personal favorite training ground for surgeons and trauma surgeons. :D

I thought about going and working there but there ED is seriously messed up. It brought new understanding to why some services my hate EM docs, even I hated about 50% of them there!
 
Besides, I have seen more negative appys based on "cannot rule out acute appenditicis, clinical correlation recommended" than in the case of a patient with classic signs and symptoms.:rolleyes:

Do you think maybe you should have correlated with the clinical symptoms then? I'm tired of people whining about this. Imaging is imaging. We can help, but its not perfect and there is an overlap between abnormal and normal. Do you think, if imaging were perfect, we would have to hedge? That is where your "clinical acumen" is supposed to kick in.
 
Do you think maybe you should have correlated with the clinical symptoms then? I'm tired of people whining about this. Imaging is imaging. We can help, but its not perfect and there is an overlap between abnormal and normal. Do you think, if imaging were perfect, we would have to hedge? That is where your "clinical acumen" is supposed to kick in.

You have a penchant for getting up in arms over some pretty innocent posts (read post #78 in this thread). Nobody's picking on rads, and nobody's whining. This is a legit surgical question.

Read the whole post before you get all pissy:

My feeling is that I don't need a scan in a male with a classic story and exam. Medical-legal issues? Perhaps some shark out there can try and make a case if the appy is negative but I think our training and knowing the limitations of the scan as well as the possible complications in missing or delaying the diagnosis, means the preponderance of evidence is ours.

I'm pretty sure an attending surgeon like WS knows well the role that her clinical acumen plays.
 
Thanks Dre...there really isn't much more to say, as you have clarified my point exactly.

The only thing I would add is that WBC surely understands, as I do, that the statement "clinical correlation recommended" has been added in the last few years for purely medical legal reasons, not simply as a gentle reminder to actually examine the patient. If anything I'm whining about the environment which forces rads to put statements in their reports like that.
 
So, I thought about posting this over in EM, but I thought, why not go to the source? Right here on SDN.


In my institution, 90% of our surgical attendings want a CT before taking an appy to the OR, regardless of story. We have two who, if the story is classic, will take them to the OR.

So, if you have a 'great' story, CT or no CT?


(our radiologist also insist that an appy can only be diagnosed by CT with po and iv contrast, two hours after the po has been taken)

Here's a similar recent discussion.

My opinion is post #15 there. Honestly, I had no idea so many of my fellow surgical residents scanned everybody regardless of their story and exam.
 
thanks for the opinions. It seems like it is still surgeon dependent, which I think is appropriate. Comfort with PE, timing etc, are all part of clinical accumen/etc.

Regarding u/s, I am about to sit for my ARDMS certification, so I am fairly comfortable with my u/s skills. I will do appy u/s in kids, although it rarely finds anything. But for kids, decreasing radiation is important.

I spent two years, actively trying to diagnose appy on u/s in adults. what a serious pain in the arse. But the other day, I had a pretty classic male appy, but was also complaining of RUQ pain. to save time, I threw a probe on the ruq (negative) and randomly tried ot find the appy. don't ask me why. I was having a lapsed moment. bam! there was the appy. U/S is great if its there, but it often isn't.
 
You have a penchant for getting up in arms over some pretty innocent posts (read post #78 in this thread). Nobody's picking on rads, and nobody's whining. This is a legit surgical question.

Read the whole post before you get all pissy:

I'm pretty sure an attending surgeon like WS knows well the role that her clinical acumen plays.

First of all, I am flattered by the fact that you either remembered or took the time to look through my record (holy crap, that was in 2004, man). I defend my profession, but I am for the most part reasonable. If you did search through my post history, you would also find many posts defending clinicians when arrogant radiology residents post here. I have the utmost respect for what you all do. All I ask is for the same in return. That being said, I agree my post was a little over the top and defensive.

Winged Scapula said:
The only thing I would add is that WBC surely understands, as I do, that the statement "clinical correlation recommended" has been added in the last few years for purely medical legal reasons, not simply as a gentle reminder to actually examine the patient. If anything I'm whining about the environment which forces rads to put statements in their reports like that.

Secondly, this is exactly the point and underlying sentiment that I was critical of. For the most part, this idea that this is some way to cover our ass is just not true. Most radiologists I know only include a statement like this in our report when there is truly an equivocal finding or something that is beyond or ability to differentiate on imaging alone.

I know you are generally very reasonable Winged Scapula, and I apologize if I came across to defensive. I just wanted to clear up a misunderstanding. (your roll-eyes smiley at the end of the original post did not help). I also admit I didn't read the rest of your post as carefully as I should have and apologize.
 
Secondly, this is exactly the point and underlying sentiment that I was critical of. For the most part, this idea that this is some way to cover our ass is just not true. Most radiologists I know only include a statement like this in our report when there is truly an equivocal finding or something that is beyond or ability to differentiate on imaging alone.

You may find your experiences change once you are/if you ever are out in the community. Perhaps in academics you don't see this as much as I do out in the community.

I have clearly seen a sea change in which that statement started to appear on all reports, regardless of whether clinical correlation was needed or not. I would say the vast majority of my reports contain that statement, even for known cancers or other biopsied lesions. I even have some reports which contain statements about which particular surgery they recommend (can I please put rolly eyes here? ;) ).

I know you are generally very reasonable Winged Scapula, and I apologize if I came across to defensive. I just wanted to clear up a misunderstanding. (your roll-eyes smiley at the end of the original post did not help). I also admit I didn't read the rest of the post as carefully as I should have.

Thanks...I'm sorry my rolly eyes created the misunderstanding. We all get defensive about our fields and its natural to have some conflicts when you work closely together. Surgeons and radiologists, whether they like it or not, are linked at the hip, and we are bound to have our differences.
 
You may find your experiences change once you are/if you ever are out in the community. Perhaps in academics you don't see this as much as I do out in the community.

(1) I have clearly seen a sea change in which that statement started to appear on all reports, regardless of whether clinical correlation was needed or not. I would say the vast majority of my reports contain that statement, even for known cancers or other biopsied lesions. I even have some reports which contain statements about which particular surgery they recommend (can I please put rolly eyes here? ;) ).



Thanks...I'm sorry my rolly eyes created the misunderstanding. We all get defensive about our fields and its natural to have some conflicts when you work closely together. (2) Surgeons and radiologists, whether they like it or not, are linked at the hip, and we are bound to have our differences.

(1) As the child of a radiologist, I discussed rads as a field pretty extensively with my dad when I first started med school. This is one of the things that really bothered him about the field; as he put it, more clinicians get more scans which may or may not be indicated, as a CYA method. This puts radiologists in an extremely vulnerable position. Their names are on a lot of charts, they are at the mercy of clinicians for referrals (they don't get to pick their patients), they can't control whether the studies ordered are the appropriate studies, they can't just say "no, I'm not reading this," and people forget that imaging studies themselves (due to technical considerations, operator skill, other factors) are simply not perfect all the time. I can remember my dad talking about partners who had been sued for reading V/Q scans on big fat obese people (i.e. poor studies) as "intermediate probability" (studies lacked obvious filling defects) when the patients in question suffered PE's days later. In one case, a radiologist was successfully sued for reading a positive PE on a helical CT (the scan was rread late in the evening, and the clinician did not bother to read the report for 3 days until the patient died of his PE). There are other storied I remember about people getting sued for missing trivial little specks on CXR's/CT's in patients that developed lung cancer 10-15+ years down the road.

Thus the current phenomenon of "No evidence of consolidation; cannot r/o small right-sided pleural effusion, pulmonary edema, or atelectasis; small nodule in RUL may represent benign mass but cannot r/o granuloma or malignancy--clinical correlation required"* instead of "No evidence of pneumonia."

I know this is hardly scientific and represents the n=1 personal experience of my dad and his particular group, and not me, but I still think it's valid as an explanation for radiologic report hedging. The point being that my father was discouraged about radiology as a field because he felt that, due to the increasingly litigious medicolegal climate, he could not render his entirely honest opinion about studies due to fear of being involved in lawsuits brought about by things beyond the control of his knowledge and skill as a physician. Radiologists, in my experience, don't hedge because they don't know the answer; they do it when they feel like they have to because people like to take advantage of them.

If I were a practicing radiologist, I would feel compelled to protect myself from the "pass-the-buck" mentality of some clinicians and the aggressive cash-grabbing attitude of med-mal attorneys. I'd hedge like crazy and not feel bad about it for a second.

(2) Very true, but I suppose familiarity can breed contempt and it's important to remember to respect our relative areas of expertise.

*Disclaimer: I am not a radiologist. I am aware that my rendering of a CXR report may sound completely ******ed to anyone with actual radiology training.
 
Darn it...how come he doesn't have his picture on your hospital web site? I wanna see!!! :mad:



You are right! I went and searched and there isn't a single photo of him there. I intend to ask why as soon as I can. :D
 
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