Crossroads...am I a lost cause?

[meezus]

Now forgive me, because this may very well sound like a rant by the time I'm done writing this. I've been wanting to get this out in full for a long time, but the people I know and am around aren't very much help. My story is probably very similar to many of those that are on here looking for answers and those not on this forum, but I felt that if I asked the question with details specific to me and my situation, I can have a better idea, take action and move forward with my future. I've thought about writing this on the internet but I never got around to it. Now, I'm more desperate than ever and have no one to go to for help.

I'm 22 years old. I am the oldest of 3 children in my family, my parents are immigrants and are self-employed. I'm a minority, and the first person in my family to attend college in America. I graduated from a university in Washington state with a bachelor of arts degree in psychology. My cumulative GPA was a 2.65, and my GPA in psychology courses was somewhere around a 2.8 or 2.9. My second year in school was my problem year. I battled pretty bad anxiety that would occur out of nowhere almost every day, which prevented me from going to class, but also admittedly partied too hard being that it was my first year out of the dorms and lived on a street with all my friends, cared more about girls, friends, and throwing parties than I did about picking a major or attending class. The mix of both of these things ruined that second year, with withdrawal marks, 1.0 GPAs for one or two quarters and as well as one or two F's written all over my transcript like graffiti.

I had realized how bad I had done that year, but I still did not excel past a 2.5-3.0 for the rest of my college career (except for the last two quarters, keep reading). Not because I couldn't do the work, but I just simply did not try as hard as I could have, I was not a proactive thinker nor did I consider the future. Another thing that hurts me is that I did not do a single extracurricular or school related activity; no internships, I didn't join a club, I attended none of the events on campus. I rarely used any sort of academic advising tool, and I might have visited the career center twice in 4.5 years. I know this certainly doesn't help when you are majoring in a field like psychology and have any desire to do anything with your future, but especially when you aren't the most academically inclined student. I was crazy, unmotivated and a damn-near lost cause!

However, during my last two-three quarters of school I started doing much better and I even built a relationship with two of my professors. I would attend their office hours for questions, suggestions, and even just to chat and see how things were going, which the sophomore me would have never done. What I believed had happened was, considering this started when I began taking research methods classes in psychology and getting a little deeper in the field, I developed a passion for neuropsychology and clinical/abnormal psychology (too little too late?). However, my grades did not get noticeably better until my last two quarters, which were Summer 2013 and Fall 2013. I ended up achieving a 3.8 in both quarters. Yes, I know that this is probably a joke considering it was only a part time course load (2 classes, only one being a psychology class), and that I was about the graduate in one more quarter. The last fall quarter I graduated in, I got an A and an A- in the two senior psychology seminars I was taking (a seminar in Neuropsychology and a seminar in Social Psychology).

And that was the end of my undergraduate career. 4.5 years and I got out with an ugly GPA, a bachelor's degree in psychology which is essentially useless and a swift kick out of the door with a blindfold. Case manager positions, psychology/psychiatry technicians, positions asking for a bachelor's in psychology that are the advisors, about.com, and other career sources tell you are available for psychology majors, are simply not, especially when I don't have any experience providing a single reason why a company, doctor or institute should consider inviting me for an interview let alone a handshake. All that you can find around here with my qualifications is entry level sales or marketing jobs which are nothing more than laughable and will hire anyone (cold-calling and commission based pay or a long time sitting at 28k a year). I actually worked for Enterprise Rent-a-Car for two months after graduation to try the whole sales thing out and, not so surprisingly, it was not for me whatsoever.

Here's the thing: Although I don't give myself enough credit and am hard on myself (as I should be when thinking about my situation and continuing my education), I truly am a bright student when I try, which I have most certainly devoted my entire being to this new academic "me". Not to toot my own horn, but I do think I'm a good writer. I'm not that partying kid who doesn't go to class, but my transcript might understandably make it hard for a group of admissions counselors to see that. Now of course the issue is #1 conveying this to a reputable graduate school and #2 figuring out what I want to go to school for. With regard to #2, which should probably go before #1 now that I think about it, I need to figure out what place has it in their hearts to accept me into their program.

My options/interests are:

- Graduate school or professional school (like CSPP) for some sort of psychology, interested in neuropsychology or clinical, with hopes to later get a PhD
- Post-bacc (although I'd need further information on this)
- Law school
- Becoming a psychiatrist (which I think might be the lowest of my chances due to the fact that it is medical school I'd be trying to get into, but this is also why I originally chose to major in psychology)

Psychiatry would be a dream come true. Now go easy on me (lol). I have come to terms with, understand and accept the fact that I have absolutely no one to blame but myself for what went on during the course of my undergraduate studies and quite honestly, I am extremely embarrassed by my situation. All my friends are business majors or going into graduate school right now. But now I'm 7 months post-graduation and I'm doing nothing. Even if I were to pick something, I wouldn't know where to start which is why I come to the internet. Being the oldest in a family that is not from this country, I don't have as much knowledgable support from my parents (God bless them, they paid for my schooling in full). But as it usually happens with situations such as this one, I want it more than ever and I would. Every one I've talked to either says "So what are you doing now?" or "Don't worry, you'll figure it out". What is "it" as it applies to me? To get another chance at building my career hopefully by attending a graduate school and building on my passion. Because the good Lord knows I want it more than ever.

Suggestions on what I can do? Is graduate school even an option? If I even get passed that question, can I still become a psychiatrist? And not to sound snobby or anything, but tuition costs and debt are not necessarily an issue.

I appreciate your time.

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[AcronymAllergy]

Keep in mind that these are the Psychology forums, so if Psychiatry is your ultimate goal, you might be better served by visiting that particular SDN subforum. Also, keep in mind that despite both working in the mental health arena, the daily life and practice of a psychiatrist vs. a psychologist is likely to be quite different, as are the training models. Know that admission to a reputable clinical/counseling doctoral program is going to be just as rough, if not more difficult, than med school, as the number of funded spots offered is very small in relation to the number of folks applying, and ~5% acceptance rates are more the norm than the exception. Finally, even though money is not an issue, quality of training is, as it varies substantially more in psychology than medical school; thus, a less-respected program such as CSPP likely isn't going to prepare you very well for the actual practice of psychology unless you go WAY above and beyond, and seek out training opportunities and resources that likely aren't directly available through the program itself. Neuropsychology in particularly is one of, if not the, most competitive specialties in psychology, so attending a program that has a decent reputation and that will prepare you well for internship and fellowship is of paramount importance. Finally, a little clarification--neuropsychologists are clinical/counseling (and in a handful of cases, school) psychologists who've gone on to specialize in neuropsychology. Much like how an interventional radiologist is a physician who went on to specialize in radiology and then interventional radiology.

Now, back to your questions. If medical school is your ultimate goal, then yes, it sounds like you'd need a post-bacc program (there are subforums here that can provide additional information on this); in said program, you'd need to do very well, and would also need to work in numerous extra-curriculars, including shadowing of physicians and volunteer work. If law school is the goal, then with your GPA, you're going to need to absolutely rock the LSAT. If you do that, I'd imagine you'll get in somewhere, although the tier of the law school can apparently be of significant importance when it comes to finding a job.

If doctoral-level psychology is the goal, then I'd suggest you find and attend an experimental masters program. This will 1) allow you to show you're capable of handling grad-level coursework (and you'll want to get as close to a 4.0 as possible to really drive this point home, as there will be significant doubts had by admissions committees given your undergrad record); and 2) allow you to gather research experience, which is almost the end-all, be-all of psychology applications (in addition to solid GRE scores and good research/clinical fit with your chosen professors of interest). You may also still need to spend a year or so after the masters gathering additional research experience, such as by finding a paid research assistant position or doing volunteer research work in a nearby psychology lab.

If providing therapy is your ultimate goal, then the doctoral psychology route is one option, but so is pursuing a licensable masters-level degree, such as a masters in social work, counseling, or marital and family therapy.

 

[erg923]

If you are saying that you are willing to pay whatever it costs to obtain your dream, so be it. Even the bottom barrel programs like Argosy might be a stretch , but you could make probably make it into one of their campuses. And I think, respectfully, that that is psychology's problem these days. Cause med school outside the Caribbean or the 3rd world is def off the table with your current record.

Get ready for an uphill battle every step of the way.

PS: I agree with AA that if your interest in mental health service delivery, you are not being very flexible with your stated "options."

 

[meezus]

Thank you for the advice, AcronymAllergy. In all honesty, I'd love to go into psychiatry as my number 1, but the reason I'm shying away from it is because I'm not confident that I can get into a good program. By good I mean reputable enough that it is worth spending the years in school for it. On top of that, I would have no idea where to start in my situation. Community college to boost GPA then apply to post bacc? To make it worse, I don't know if my grades will get me into U of Washington's post-bacc program here. And in the chance that I do get in, then I'd have to take a lot of math and science courses because I only took my university's basic math and science classes to graduate (psychology didn't have any science or math prereqs), and then Med school. Time doesn't matter to me if it means it'll pay off.

If not psychiatry and I still want to do psychology, I'd want to, like you said, go into clinical psychology and specialize in neuro. I had a professor who once told me that a grad program in neuro might be a little easier to get into because the courses are so rigorous. I'm not sure on the validity of that however.

I guess the main thing is that I wouldn't know where to start. I know I can't apply right now with my GPA and no experience. I think every school, Argosy and CSPP wouldn't even accept me. So I guess I'd need to know what to do step by step, and I'm literally willing to begin this journey tomorrow.

Keep in mind that these are the Psychology forums, so if Psychiatry is your ultimate goal, you might be better served by visiting that particular SDN subforum. Also, keep in mind that despite both working in the mental health arena, the daily life and practice of a psychiatrist vs. a psychologist is likely to be quite different, as are the training models. Know that admission to a reputable clinical/counseling doctoral program is going to be just as rough, if not more difficult, than med school, as the number of funded spots offered is very small in relation to the number of folks applying, and ~5% acceptance rates are more the norm than the exception. Finally, even though money is not an issue, quality of training is, as it varies substantially more in psychology than medical school; thus, a less-respected program such as CSPP likely isn't going to prepare you very well for the actual practice of psychology unless you go WAY above and beyond, and seek out training opportunities and resources that likely aren't directly available through the program itself. Neuropsychology in particularly is one of, if not the, most competitive specialties in psychology, so attending a program that has a decent reputation and that will prepare you well for internship and fellowship is of paramount importance. Finally, a little clarification--neuropsychologists are clinical/counseling (and in a handful of cases, school) psychologists who've gone on to specialize in neuropsychology. Much like how an interventional radiologist is a physician who went on to specialize in radiology and then interventional radiology.

Now, back to your questions. If medical school is your ultimate goal, then yes, it sounds like you'd need a post-bacc program (there are subforums here that can provide additional information on this); in said program, you'd need to do very well, and would also need to work in numerous extra-curriculars, including shadowing of physicians and volunteer work. If law school is the goal, then with your GPA, you're going to need to absolutely rock the LSAT. If you do that, I'd imagine you'll get in somewhere, although the tier of the law school can apparently be of significant importance when it comes to finding a job.

If doctoral-level psychology is the goal, then I'd suggest you find and attend an experimental masters program. This will 1) allow you to show you're capable of handling grad-level coursework (and you'll want to get as close to a 4.0 as possible to really drive this point home, as there will be significant doubts had by admissions committees given your undergrad record); and 2) allow you to gather research experience, which is almost the end-all, be-all of psychology applications (in addition to solid GRE scores and good research/clinical fit with your chosen professors of interest). You may also still need to spend a year or so after the masters gathering additional research experience, such as by finding a paid research assistant position or doing volunteer research work in a nearby psychology lab.

If providing therapy is your ultimate goal, then the doctoral psychology route is one option, but so is pursuing a licensable masters-level degree, such as a masters in social work, counseling, or marital and family therapy.

 

[meezus]

If you are saying that you are willing to pay whatever it costs to obtain your dream, so be it. Even the bottom barrel programs like Argosy might be a stretch , but you could make probably make it into one of their campuses. And I think, respectfully, that exactly psychology a problem these days. Cause med school outside the Caribbean or the 3rd world is def off the table with your current record.

Get ready for an uphill battle every step of the way.

PS: I agree with AA that if your interest in mental health service delivery, you are not being very flexible with your stated "options."

erg923, I appreciate your comment, but honestly that's not very encouraging, and a little negative with words I've bolded above. I'm looking for constructive criticism, not for you to reiterate the things I already know. I know I messed up. Now I'm looking for ways to clean up that mess.

 

[erg923]

And just to clarify, I am all for second chances. And, fortunately, this is America, so you actually have many chances here. No one is banning you from the job market, or even the fields of law or mental health. The second chances clause is of course balanced with the fact that behavior DOES have consequences. Fail too many tests in high school, you ain't getting into Harvard. Similarly, too many keg stands and skirt chasin and not enough class attendance will close some doors. The doctorate may be one of the doors you closed.

 

[erg923]

erg923, I appreciate your comment, but honestly that's not very encouraging, and a little negative with words I've bolded above. I'm looking for constructive criticism, not for you to reiterate the things I already know. I know I messed up. Now I'm looking for ways to clean up that mess.

Then read my other comment.

Be flexible and move forth .

And if you don't like the sound of "bottom of the barrel" programs, which they are by every outcome metric we know of, then don't attend one.

Do a post bac program or apply to MSW programs. I am not really knowledgable about law school or paralegal work, so I won't comment.

 

[meezus]

And just to clarify, I am all for second chances. And, fortunately, this is America, so you actually have many chances here. No one is banning you from the job market, or even the fields of law or mental health. The second chances clause is of course balanced with the fact that behavior DOES have consequences. Fail too many tests in high school, you ain't getting into Harvard. Similarly, too many keg stands and skirt chasin and not enough class attendance will close some doors. The doctorate may be one of the doors you closed.

Then read my other comment.

Be flexible and move forth .

And if you don't like the sound of "bottom of the barrel" programs, which they are by every outcome metric we know of, then don't attend one.

Do a post bac program or apply to MSW programs. I am not really knowledgable about law school or paralegal work, so I won't comment.

I appreciate the input.

 

[greenlion]

Why did you choose a psychology major without taking science classes when you knew you wanted to do psychiatry early on? That's what flummoxes me with people deciding between psychology vs. psychiatry. No medical school and no psychiatry residency cares about your college major, period. To be a psychiatrist- you will have to become a doctor first- the same pre-education and education as all the other doctors. So be aware that you won't be studying much psychology/psychiatry for at least 7 years if you go this route (3 pre-med, 4 med).

That said...
There's a whole subforum for non-traditional pre-meds: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/forums/nontraditional-students.110/
Many many many people discuss low gpa -> med school.

In a nutshell: Getting into a US allopathic medical school is out of the question. But you do have two realistic options:
(1) D.O. medical school: they allow grade-replacement to fix your GPA (entails retaking those F classes)
(2) one of the Big 4 Caribbean medical schools: they're more likely to overlook a subpar GPA if your sciences GPA and MCAT scores are good.
Good news is that if you get that far (and pass your med school classes and the licensing exams) you will become a psychiatrist (because psychiatry residencies are among the least competitive to get into).

But there's a lot of things you need to do before applying to medical school. And the biggest barrier is taking the pre-med science classes and getting As in all/almost all of them. The material isn't easy- particularly the chemistry and physics- and most of the other students are pre-meds also. They all want/need the A. But the grading scale is curved so that only maybe 20% of them get one. You said money is no option: But is spending 2.5-3 years building a medical school application and ultimately not doing good enough to get into a school something you can stomach? You need to consider this carefully as well.

 

[WisNeuro]

If not psychiatry and I still want to do psychology, I'd want to, like you said, go into clinical psychology and specialize in neuro. I had a professor who once told me that a grad program in neuro might be a little easier to get into because the courses are so rigorous. I'm not sure on the validity of that however.

I'm not sure on the validity of this as well. These are competitive programs. The students admitted will have high GPA, high GRE, and usually extensive experience in neuro related research or clinical work. It's harder to get into one of these tracks usually.

If psych grad school is it, then I concur with AA, you need to get into a master's program first and work your ass off. Top grades, and have some research products. The research background is especially important in neuro.

 

[KillerDiller]

I'd love to go into psychiatry as my number 1, but the reason I'm shying away from it is because I'm not confident that I can get into a good program. By good I mean reputable enough that it is worth spending the years in school for it.

I'd encourage you that if psychiatry is your number 1 choice, don't go into psychology as a back up option. The fact is that a good program in psychology will be just as difficult to get into as a solid medical school, so why spend all that effort just to have your second choice? The difference between those two options, as is relevant to your situation, is that there are a lot more non-reputable psychology doc programs available in the U.S. than their are non-reputable medical schools. I can't, in good faith, recommend those as an option, though.

Seems like you know more than I do about what it would take to get into medical school. If you did want to become a neuropsychologist, you would need to take some similar steps. You'd have to start by either completing a post-bacc or extra undergraduate classes to boost your GPA before applying to grad schools. Some research experience would also be essential, such as volunteering in a professor's lab. Another option would be, as AA suggested, to complete a masters program in psychology. Those are easier to get into than doctoral programs (for the most part), and would provide both the requisite coursework and research experience necessary to strengthen your application to doc programs. The next steps, then, are getting into a grad program that will provide you with a solid grounding of general clinical experience, securing an internship with some neuro training, and eventually getting one of the 2-year neuro post-docs. One of the reasons I would advise you to simply ignore the existence of the non-reputable psych doc programs is that they make it more difficult to obtain credible internships and post-docs. Thus, you may find yourself in the position of graduating from one of those programs and being unable to attain the specialty training necessary to go into neuropsychology.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Agreed with all of the above folks. Whether you go psychology or psychiatry, it's probably going to take the same amount of time and effort until you're competitive for either path--whether it's a couple years for an experimental psychology masters + perhaps some extra research work, or a few years in a post-bacc program to boost your grades and complete the pre-reqs you need (in addition to rounding out your application with volunteer work, shadowing, etc.).

And as KillerDiller mentioned, the difficulty of getting into a reputable psychology program vs. medical school will be fairly comparable, as will be the level of difficulty and the amount of time spent in said program--8 years for psychiatry (4 med school + 4 residency) and 8 years for neuropsychology (5 grad school + 1 internship + 2 post-doc).

Thus, if psychiatry is your true passion, then go for psychiatry. As greenlion mentioned, there's an entire subforum here dedicated to non-traditional pre-med students, and I'd imagine many (if not all) of your questions in that regard have already been asked and answered, so that could be an excellent source of information for you. But realize that psychiatry and neuropsychology are two very different things with respect to everyday practice, so you may want to spend some time truly identifying what your interests are, and what you'd like to see yourself doing once you complete your training.

 

[smalltownpsych]

What jumps out at me from your post is that you are still struggling with identifying what you want to do and why. Pursuing an advanced degree without having more clarity on that can be a difficult if not impossible task. I am thinking that real world experience might help with that and it is concerning when you disparage jobs that I have done myself. Working at a job that you don't like and showing up anyway is great experience and helps prepare you to become a good "fill in the blank" with whatever you decide to do.

 

[iPsych]

I guess the main thing is that I wouldn't know where to start. I know I can't apply right now with my GPA and no experience. I think every school, Argosy and CSPP wouldn't even accept me. So I guess I'd need to know what to do step by step, and I'm literally willing to begin this journey tomorrow.

From the looks of it, you've already taken the first step of this journey today just by reaching out! Keep at it!

 

[Sendtrees]

You definitely need to take more classes--two quarters probably will not show a compelling narrative of change. You should take at least a year of coursework and accept nothing less for yourself than straight A's. If you are more interested in psychiatry than a psychology doctoral degree, look into whether you can take pre-med courses as a post-bacc. I know someone who did this because in college, she had no plans to go to med school. She took her pre-med classes at a local state university, the same one where I took my post-bacc classes in psychology.

It worries me that you would so casually imagine going to CSPP given the regret you evidently feel about not making the most of your college years. It is far more difficult than most people realize to be the "first" in your family or community to go to college, and it would be a shame to attribute too much of struggle in college to individual, rather than structural, factors. You have the opportunity now not to make a far worse mistake--going to a substandard program because that is the only kind that lets you in. Show yourself and good programs that you are willing to do the work it takes to have better for yourself. An investment of 2-3 years now will pay off in the long run.

P.S. You might have a somewhat easier time getting into programs for a psychiatric NP or PA. Don't get hung up on titles. A doctoral degree won't mean much if you have 200K of loans and no conceivable way of paying them. And you want to make sure that whatever program you enter, you have a strong chance of completing it--which, if you look at attrition and internship rates of some professional schools, is far from a sure thing.

 

[psych84]

I'm in a rush, so haven't read your post totally, but I don't think being a crossdresser will pose too many challenges.

 

[CheetahGirl]

Psych84, are you trying to be witty again? OP said "crossroads," as in a fork in the road. And you know what Yogi Bear said, "when you see a fork in the road, take it!"

I'm in a rush, so haven't read your post totally, but I don't think being a crossdresser will pose too many challenges.