Crying at work

[nannaKskywalk]

Real question: As a female resident, I've had a couple of people catch me tearing up (never on rounds) and I might have cried a time or two in front of my advisor. Has this damaged my credibility and will this hurt me in my future goals? (Please take this seriously.)

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[Moose A Moose]

Real question: As a female resident, I've had a couple of people catch me tearing up (never on rounds) and I might have cried a time or two in front of my advisor. Has this damaged my credibility and will this hurt me in my future goals? (Please take this seriously.)

Possibly. It depends on the person who caught you “puddling up” and how they perceive it.

 

[Crayola227]

Yeah, I'm a crier, and I gotta say it's not that big a deal if you cry in front of a patient or if you've got a good trauma bond going with a fellow resident.

But you have to avoid crying in front of your uppers as much as possible. The PD, aPD, Chief, Dept Chair, etc. An advisor might be OK if you have a good bond, they respect and like you, and are genuinely in your corner.

It also depends what you're crying about too.

I find blinking a lot will help sweep that excess tear fluid through that nasolacrimal duct hopefully without spilling over. This is why I don't wear make up besides concealer for those undereye circles from no sleep.

Also a bit of tissue to the corner of the eyes before it can spill over. I keep tissues on me at all times.

I bite my cheek as hard as possible or do something else that hurts quite a bit that no one can see, you would think it would make you cry, but taking your mind off emotional pain and into physical can help staunch tears.

Deep breaths.

I usually try to make it into a bathroom ASAP. You can look up distraction tactics like the cheek biting, that you can do in private, call them the Jendrassik maneuvers of eliciting the cessation of tears. Lots of cold water, you can make cold water compresses with tissue in there. I pinch my cheeks and rub my face so the whole thing is rosy pink, not just the eyes and nose which is a sure sign of crying. If the whole thing is red and you were in there a while, maybe people will just think you were straining yourself to go. Keep a small thing of concealer in my white coat (God, there are reasons to have that coat and its pockets) for the nose and blotchiness. Make sure to stare at your notes or the computer as much as you can to avoid eye contact until things calm down, if you can. Where appropriate clutch some tissue and sniffle and mumble something about allergies, a cold, or a lash in your eye.

I'm made a career of hiding my tears during training, which is why I have a whole ritual. I would check in with people I trusted, I was usually successful with these techniques.

 

[mvenus929]

It's hard to say. It depends on the culture of your program, your specialty, what you're crying about, and how often you cry.

I cried in front of a patient (well, the mom of a patient, since the patient was an infant, and the mom happened to be an ex-nurse), and I've cried with our chaplain, but try to avoid crying on rounds or letting anyone know I'm crying. We had a resident in our program (peds, so generally friendly and understanding) who cried at work every day. People definitely thought less of that resident. But, we also had a resident who cried whenever she was given feedback during intern year, but then cried much less frequently after that, and she was chosen to be chief. The occasional resident who cried after a difficult patient encounter, or when discussing family stresses, not such a big deal. More likely to be a big deal if you're seen as being overly stressed or depressed with your job.

Now, if you're in surgery, you're much more likely to run into problems with crying. If your program leadership is predominately old white men, you're much less likely to get the touchy-feely treatment. If you have a leader who is female but feels that she has something to prove, being known for crying, or crying in front of her will likely hurt you.

 

[Raryn]

Real question: As a female resident, I've had a couple of people catch me tearing up (never on rounds) and I might have cried a time or two in front of my advisor. Has this damaged my credibility and will this hurt me in my future goals? (Please take this seriously.)

Honestly?

It depends on both the circumstances and who the people are who caught you tearing up.

Some people are arseholes and will spread stories about how you're emotionally unstable - thankfully these people are definitely in the minority. Maybe (as mentioned above) there's more of those people in surgery - I can't comment.

Most folks though (including physicians) do have a sense of empathy where if you have an emotionally trying situation, patients dying, whatever - they'll understand, try to discuss with you or give you time, and probably never mention it again.

If it's a recurrent issue happening every day? That's probably not normal and maybe there's some underlying concern (depression is unfortunately exceedingly common among residents - as it is among everyone else) - but I think most of us would agree that crying occasionally in the setting of extreme stress is a perfectly normal human response.

(I still remember the 3rd year medical student on her first rotation that got overwhelmed by the fact she started on a holiday week and we had 3 attendings over 3 days - to the point where she burst into tears and asked me for a hug. I reassured her, didn't mention it to anyone, and it wasn't brought up on her evaluation. I would like to hope that that is the normal response. Of course, with #MeToo, I might defer the hug in 2018)

 

[doc05]

Why are you crying so much?

 

[hmockingbird]

I’m in peds and generally agree with the above that the occasional crying because of a difficult patient encounter or a patient death etc isn’t going to be a big deal. I know some of my co-residents have also cried in front of our PD because they were overwhelmed with something in residency (or life) and he didn’t count that against them. I would say it would be a problem if it was happening frequently and getting in the way of work. Other specialties may have more of a negative view though.

 

[mimelim]

I cried once, and the beatings intensified until morale improved.

Lovely system.

 

[Old&InTheWay]

It may have damaged your credibility as a robot or psychopath. Obviously I have not yet been a resident, but during my 3rd year I saw multiple instances of attendings extending empathy and understanding toward students and residents after normal expressions of emotion in the face of difficult situations. Sure there are going to be some people who view this as weak, but seriously, f**k them. Do a great job and show them there's more than one way to be a good doctor.

On a side note, I would actually say it's more appropriate to cry in front of your coworkers than patients. In the latter case it's important to be mindful about whether your expression of emotion is actually helpful to the patient and their family.

EDIT: I am assuming that your crying is happening around difficult patient encounters (e.g. end of life care, etc.)

 

[twospadz]

Personally, I think less of doctors when they cry. Patients want to know that the person that is going to help them is in control of the situation. Crying would say otherwise. But anyway, this is my opinion. Its your life.

 

[gutonc]

Personally, I think less of doctors when they cry. Patients want to know that the person that is going to help them is in control of the situation. Crying would say otherwise. But anyway, this is my opinion. Its your life.

You must be fun at parties.

 

[Danbo1957]

Determine why you cry and then stop it. Period.

 

[Goro]

I cried once, and the beatings intensified until morale improved.

Lovely system.

 

[clibby]

Holy moley, where is everybody in residency? Crying is human and medicine is not without humanity. Our job is hard, we form bonds with patients, and we experience emotional pain too. You can certainly cry; however, you need to be able to pick yourself back up and see the next patient like nothing happened and they are the most important person in the world. This will fade over time as we build up our emotional resilience, but you shouldn’t have no emotions about patients. As long as you are not constantly crying or bringing your personal problems to work, then this should be considered normal.

Now some specialties that won’t be named can be notorious for trying to find anything they can claim is a weakness, but if you are in one of those specialties, you already know the answer. Culture in medicine is changing and the important thing is that you take care of yourself so you can take care of patients.

 

[nimbus]

Don’t cry at work. It’s work.

 

[witzelsucht]

Are you guys serious? Y'all don't well up at a SIDS death or an adolescent suicide? Crying due to feedback is not really necessary, but there's nothing wrong with dropping a few tears at a kid's death.

 

[K31]

Are you guys serious? Y'all don't well up at a SIDS death or an adolescent suicide? Crying due to feedback is not really necessary, but there's nothing wrong with dropping a few tears at a kid's death.

Nope. No time for that. More patients waiting to be seen. I might feel a little sad about it later but I can honestly say I’ve never cried about a patient.

 

[mvenus929]

Are you guys serious? Y'all don't well up at a SIDS death or an adolescent suicide? Crying due to feedback is not really necessary, but there's nothing wrong with dropping a few tears at a kid's death.

I think just about everyone said context is important. Crying over an emotionally challenging case is different than crying because you can’t figure out how to put in an order. And crying every day vs just those really tough days in the PICU is different.

 

[Raryn]

Are you guys serious? Y'all don't well up at a SIDS death or an adolescent suicide? Crying due to feedback is not really necessary, but there's nothing wrong with dropping a few tears at a kid's death.

There's a number of reasons I don't see kids - the fact that most cases were either boring (Timmy has the sniffles) or sad (Timmy has cancer) is near the top of the list. I don't want to deal with either of those (adults have the same problems - but I find them less boring and less sad respectively)

 

[NotAProgDirector]

This conversation seems to suggest that crying at work is either "good" or "bad". That's ridiculous.

There's "good" crying. Perhaps with a family at the end of a long clinical ordeal. Or with a long term clinic patients. This can bring you closer to your patients. There's also crying to deal with the emotions brought on by patient care when you're on your own -- this also can be good, if it helps you process those emotions.

There's "bad" crying. Crying with patients and/of families when they are NOT crying, or when it's not what they were "looking for". Crying while doing your other work such that it gets in the way. This is usually a sign that you are not emotionally doing well for any number of reasons.

Never crying can be fine also.

 

[TXEMC344]

In 21 years, I've seen one Doc cry. The patient was an old school general surgeon who was at the end of his life, and had mentored this other old school GP. The GP came into the room, and yes shed some tears. But routine crying at work, so much that a thread had to be made asking for advice?? I long for the good ole days.

 

[TXEMC344]

"As a female resident".

 

[smr]

If your program leadership is predominately old white men, you're much less likely to get the touchy-feely treatment.

This is a really dumb/racist thing to say, especially from a physician.

As others have said, I think the situation makes all the difference. If emotions prevent you from doing your job, that would likely be seen as a problem, otherwise crying in an understandably sad moment would probably be seen as a positive thing, shows you are genuinely concerned with your patients.

 

[mvenus929]

This is a really dumb/racist thing to say, especially from a physician.

*shrug* Reality of being a woman in medicine. Not sure if it extends to black or Hispanic men as well, since the majority of older physicians are white men, especially those in positions of power. When you get comments like maternity leave is a vacation, women shouldn’t be physicians because they all eventually go part time, etc, you become jaded.

So the comment was really more sexist than racist.

 

[feb14]

I think it depends on the situation.
I cried twice last year.. the first time was during my ICU rotation when patient ‘s family made him/her CMO, it was in front of my ICU attending ( he is the ICU director as well), he was so supportive and tried to ease it on me.
the second time was when my patient passed away after months of struggle, I cried in front of floor ‘s charge nurse and a bunch of the floor nurses, all tried to ease and some actually started crying too
We are all humans at the end, unless you are bringing personal stuff to work and mixing things, I believe it should not affect your standing.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Question is why are you crying? If you want to cry then go to a secluded place wherein no one can't see you. I guess it is important that we don't show other people our weaknesses.

Crying, at the appropriate time/venue, is not a weakness.

 

[deleted480308]

If your number of times crying is a few standard deviations above the mean you need to reign that in....

 

[CDI]

I only cry when my dispo falls apart.

 

[Trismegistus4]

Are you crying?

Are you crying?!

There's no crying!

There's no crying in medicine!

 

[LucidSplash]

Look, for reals. I have cried at work. Sometimes in “good situations” as mentioned above with patients/their families. Because I care and it happens when I’m invested.

But also a lot of time in my fellowship at the beginning. It is extremely malignant. I wasn’t coddled in residency, but I didn’t really cry there openly except maybe twice. I certainly teared up a few times privately on rough days. But generally not in public. Fellowship is a different animal. In residency, no one screamed at me like they did here my first year.

My personal beliefs are more along the lines of praise in public, reprimand in private. Here, it’s a public shame fest complete with cussing and ad hominem attacks for not having memorized the entire 2 volume textbook prior to fellowship, not knowing the answer to any question, suggesting a plan someone doesn’t like.

So yeah, I cried a lot when I first started here, the first couple of months. For a variety of reasons, it’s my main response when I feel trapped in abusive situations. Yes it sucks. But it also doesn’t prevent me from doing my job. So I continue talking, working, operating with tears streaming down my face. And decided a long time ago to not be bothered by it because “F*** you” that’s why. I’m crying because you were an a**hole to me but it doesn’t stop me from doing my job.

I would stop those tears if I could because I find them a nuisance. But I can’t. So then it’s just up to the person who caused them to deal with the evidence of their being an a**hole. The fact that I am overall a pretty tough person balances out these tears.

I had one of the more malignant attendings ask me early on if I was going to cry through my entire fellowship. I responded “I don’t know, are you going to be a jerk my entire fellowship?” He responded that he was known to be an a**hole, so I just said “OK well then you do you and I’ll do me.” Things have gotten better since, partially because that’s the way this program works and partially because the tears make HIM uncomfortable and partly because I no longer GAF about their opinion of me. Multiple sources have told me I’m doing fine/excelling so I just ignore the a**holes.

So I guess to each their own. You have to find a way to deal with it. Mine isn’t the right way for everyone but I’m fine with it.

 

[Ray D. Ayshun]

Don’t speculate on the inner workings of another specialty, particularly when you’re adding anti-male, ageist (“old”) and racist (“white”) BS into it.
The “reality of being a woman in medicine” applies to exactly zero women in medicine who are my friends and colleagues.
I am a female surgeon. I have nothing to “prove” to anybody. Crying has no place at work unless a patient you were close to has died. And even then, cry at home. You are a professional, and have a job to do. It is a hospital, not your therapist’s office.


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Lets say you see another physician crying at work. You could (a) ask them whats wrong or (b) ignore them. Which emotions are cool at work? None?

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

Lets say you see another physician crying at work. You could (a) ask them whats wrong or (b) ignore them. Which emotions are cool at work? None?

Depends on if they have a history of being a thin skinned individual. If it’s someone who can barely hold it together when criticized (I’ve had residents that would burst out crying if they were told anything remotely negative), then I’d be less supportive. If it’s someone who is normally okay, then of course I would ask them why they were upset and how I could help. I would, however, focus my efforts on solving the problem that was making them cry rather than the crying itself.


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[deleted480308]

Lets say you see another physician crying at work. You could (a) ask them whats wrong or (b) ignore them. Which emotions are cool at work? None?

For normally stoic people? i have asked if they needed to talk, needed me to handle something for them or if they want me to leave them alone.


For chronic criers? Don’t get involved beyond maybe taking the team pager for awhile so they can get themselves together

 

[Raryn]

Depends on if they have a history of being a thin skinned individual. If it’s someone who can barely hold it together when criticized (I’ve had residents that would burst out crying if they were told anything remotely negative), then I’d be less supportive. If it’s someone who is normally okay, then of course I would ask them why they were upset and how I could help. I would, however, focus my efforts on solving the problem that was making them cry rather than the crying itself.


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If there's anything I've learned from my wife, this (the bold) is often a terrible idea.

 

[Stagg737]

This was recently brought up in one of the pre-med threads. People are focusing on the why but degree of the emotions also matters. Are you at work bawling your eyes out for 20 minutes or did you shed a tear but mostly kept it together? IMO the latter is fine in some situations. The former is never appropriate in front of patients or co-workers (unless you are very close and the co-worker is part of your personal support system) and would signify to me that the individual probably shouldn't be seeing patients until they've straightened out whatever is distressing them.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

If there's anything I've learned from my wife, this (the bold) is often a terrible idea.

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[rokshana]

Don’t speculate on the inner workings of another specialty, particularly when you’re adding anti-male, ageist (“old”) and racist (“white”) BS into it.
The “reality of being a woman in medicine” applies to exactly zero women in medicine who are my friends and colleagues.
I am a female surgeon. I have nothing to “prove” to anybody. Crying has no place at work unless a patient you were close to has died. And even then, cry at home. You are a professional, and have a job to do. It is a hospital, not your therapist’s office.


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Your last paragraph does seem to prove his point

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

Your last paragraph does seem to prove his point

Disagree. I was making the point that crying is unprofessional regardless of gender, and calling it out as unprofessional has nothing to do with people trying to “prove” that they are a strong woman. It has no place at work.


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[rokshana]

Disagree. I was making the point that crying is unprofessional regardless of gender, and calling it out as unprofessional has nothing to do with people trying to “prove” that they are a strong woman. It has no place at work.


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Eh, we will have to agree to disagree...maybe unprofessional in surgery, not so much in IM, peds, or hospice.
You pointed out that he shouldn’t speaking for every specialty, yet you are doing just that.

And yes, I have shed tears at work...with adult children having to make decisions about making their parent dnr or cmo...don’t think it was inappropriate...

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

Eh, we will have to agree to disagree...maybe unprofessional in surgery, not so much in IM, peds, or hospice.
You pointed out that he shouldn’t speaking for every specialty, yet you are doing just that.

And yes, I have shed tears at work...with adult children having to make decisions about making their parent dnr or cmo...don’t think it was inappropriate...

Again disagree. A doctor should be strong and not cry in my opinion, when patients are relying on him. But to each their own opinion.


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[Mad Jack]

Don’t speculate on the inner workings of another specialty, particularly when you’re adding anti-male, ageist (“old”) and racist (“white”) BS into it.
The “reality of being a woman in medicine” applies to exactly zero women in medicine who are my friends and colleagues.
I am a female surgeon. I have nothing to “prove” to anybody. Crying has no place at work unless a patient you were close to has died. And even then, cry at home. You are a professional, and have a job to do. It is a hospital, not your therapist’s office.


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I think the idea that feeling emotions is unprofessional is antiquated nonsense that was come up with by men in an age when men were not supposed to express any emotions except joy and anger, and even these were often forbidden at work. Suppressing emotions is how we ultimately end ui 0 with so many, "they seemed perfectly fine and then they killed themselves" stories in medicine. These attitudes have continued on, albeit to a lessened degree, but are relics of a dead era. But hey, I'm a touchy feely psych type, what do I know.

Don't ever cry in front of patients though, part of your job is to be strong for them and provide the comfort of composure through their difficult times. Save it for the back rooms and the fellow residents that you can confide in safely.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

I think the idea that feeling emotions is unprofessional is antiquated nonsense that was come up with by men in an age when men were not supposed to express any emotions except joy and anger, and even these were often forbidden at work. Suppressing emotions is how we ultimately end ui 0 with so many, "they seemed perfectly fine and then they killed themselves" stories in medicine. These attitudes have continued on, albeit to a lessened degree, but are relics of a dead era. But hey, I'm a touchy feely psych type, what do I know.

Don't ever cry in front of patients though, part of your job is to be strong for them and provide the comfort of composure through their difficult times. Save it for the back rooms and the fellow residents that you can confide in safely.

Lmao...antiquated... and again with the man thing... ok. No one said you can’t feel emotions, or talk about them at work. Feelings are one thing, and I talked plenty when i treated patients at the marathon bombing which was essentially a brutal war zone with screaming people. crying, however, is on a different level. when you’re at work, you need to remain professional at all times, and act like an adult. or do you want the doctor taking care of you losing their s**t and bawling to their colleagues on a regular basis? That’s the person you want taking care of your loved ones? Okay.


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[geripalgal]

I am a female who works in hospice.
Showing compassion, even tears after loss of a dear patient is ok and would be welcomed by most families - it shows that you are a real human too! but frequent crying makes me worried about your ability to cope withthe high stresses of the medical field, your risk for burnout, your overall wellness. Is there a reason that you are so frequently unable to handle the emotional stresses of your work - and is there a way to work on this? I advise you speak with an advisor that you trust.

 

[rokshana]

Lmao...antiquated... and again with the man thing... ok. No one said you can’t feel emotions, or talk about them at work. Feelings are one thing, and I talked plenty when i treated patients at the marathon bombing which was essentially a brutal war zone with screaming people. crying, however, is on a different level. when you’re at work, you need to remain professional at all times, and act like an adult. or do you want the doctor taking care of you losing their s**t and bawling to their colleagues on a regular basis? That’s the person you want taking care of your loved ones? Okay.


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There is a difference between “bawling” and having tears fall in sympathy and empathy...and just because you are a woman that is a surgeon doesn’t mean that you haven’t taken on the training philosophy of those that have that mentality...

You’re right do I want my surgeon to be crying ...probably not... but not expecting a surgeon to show a lot of emotion... do I want the hospice doctor to be as stoic as a surgeon? Probably not...

 

[mvenus929]

Your last paragraph does seem to prove his point

Her

 

[Raryn]

Lmao...antiquated... and again with the man thing... ok. No one said you can’t feel emotions, or talk about them at work. Feelings are one thing, and I talked plenty when i treated patients at the marathon bombing which was essentially a brutal war zone with screaming people. crying, however, is on a different level. when you’re at work, you need to remain professional at all times, and act like an adult. or do you want the doctor taking care of you losing their s**t and bawling to their colleagues on a regular basis? That’s the person you want taking care of your loved ones? Okay.


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Again, this varies so much from situation to situation and person to person that you really can't generalize.

I have never cried at work. I've seen some ****, but it's just not a response that I have personally utilized. But I have colleagues who have. Assuming it was in an appropriate situation, they didn't make a scene out of it, and it wasn't a common thing, it can be a perfectly normal thing.

 

[DrMcCoyDO]

Lmao...antiquated... and again with the man thing... ok. No one said you can’t feel emotions, or talk about them at work. Feelings are one thing, and I talked plenty when i treated patients at the marathon bombing which was essentially a brutal war zone with screaming people. crying, however, is on a different level. when you’re at work, you need to remain professional at all times, and act like an adult. or do you want the doctor taking care of you losing their s**t and bawling to their colleagues on a regular basis? That’s the person you want taking care of your loved ones? Okay.


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Truly with the utmost respect, you are acting like there’s no middle ground between stoic tearlessness and bawling your eyes out. It is possible to shed some tears without losing it. Had a 10 month old come in last week in aystole arrest. We coded him for nearly an hour with the mom at bedside begging him to breathe as we were doing compressions. Had to hear mom scream when the attending called it. I didn’t start bawling my eyes out, but you better believe there was no way I was able to choke back all my tears.

 

[Osminog]

I think the idea that feeling emotions is unprofessional is antiquated nonsense that was come up with by men in an age when men were not supposed to express any emotions except joy and anger, and even these were often forbidden at work.

This seems like a straw man. Nobody in this thread said that "feeling emotions is unprofessional." There's clearly a difference between feeling an emotion and acting on it in ways that may be inappropriate in a given social context. For example, it is well known that therapists can sometimes feel romantic or lustful emotions toward their clients during psychotherapy sessions; these sorts of feelings can be completely normal and unavoidable. However, that doesn't mean that therapists are given a pass when it comes to flirting with or propositioning their clients. An emotion and a potential behavior stemming from that emotion are not mutually inclusive.

Also, the popular notion that there was a time when men were only permitted to feel joy and anger is based purely in feminist mythology. Anyone who has read and studied classical literature, especially poetry, knows it not to be true.

 

[Mad Jack]

Also, the popular notion that there was a time when men were only permitted to feel joy and anger is based purely in feminist mythology. Anyone who has read and studied classical literature, especially poetry, knows it not to be true.

That time did exist and was rooted in the professional culture that spurred out of the men returning from the first and second world wars, with the second, in particular, having a severe impact upon professional work culture and the perception of how men should act and behave. Professional culture basically became an extension of military ideals and discipline, as almost everyone entering the professional world post-WWII was a GI Bill recipient that had been shaped by military ideas of work ethic, cleanliness, and reservation that were far less prevalent previously.

This isn't feminist history, this is like, basic general history of the postwar United States. Our current ideals of what constitute professionalism are a historical accident brought about by mass enlistment and the effect that had on the psyche of a generation. The ideal of stoicism in the workforce and in public matters is one of the major side effects the wars had on the way men were expected to behave, as in war this was expected and required of men on the front lines. They came to expect this behavior of the people they hired and promoted when they entered the workforce, and here we are today.

 

[Mad Jack]

Truly with the utmost respect, you are acting like there’s no middle ground between stoic tearlessness and bawling your eyes out. It is possible to shed some tears without losing it. Had a 10 month old come in last week in aystole arrest. We coded him for nearly an hour with the mom at bedside begging him to breathe as we were doing compressions. Had to hear mom scream when the attending called it. I didn’t start bawling my eyes out, but you better believe there was no way I was able to choke back all my tears.

Exactly. People have been throwing out examples of doctors crying their eyes out for 20 minutes when n the reality is most people are just going to shed a few tears in a back room for a minute or two and then get on with their day. Crying is a healthy response to emotions for many people, and not all people have the same range or depth of emotions. Yeah, if you're crying on the daily you've probably got bigger issues, but like, if you just went through some serious **** that hit a nerve and you need a couple of minutes in the lounge to just feel that **** and process it, that's fine.

Most of the crying I've witnessed over the years hasn't been the result of anything to do with patients though. It has been people breaking down due to abusive attendings that intentionally try to make their residents miserable. Dare I say it is a normal reaction to cry when you're under the thumb of an emotionally (or sometimes physically, thank god the equipment throwing OR surgeons I've come across have all long since been fired) abusive individual and in a position in which you have no choice but to suffer and they have all of the power to ruin your life, well... Sometimes crying is all you've got left. That **** can be cathartic. And yeah, you might need a therapist or whatever, but like, some people are just masterful at hurting others. We had a surgical attending at Big University that would make a nurse or resident cry literally weekly without fail. And not a single damn person would blame them, because he was a goddamn monster.