Curiousity: Caribbean school hypothetical

[def1]

Im not considering Caribbean schools but I'm bored and trying to distract myself from my empty inbox. I know Caribbean schools are said to not be good because it is tough to match into residency. So I have made up this hypothetical situation to see what you guys think.

Lets say someone goes into a Caribbean school, is number 1 in the class all through pre-clinical and clinical years. Scores a 270+ on his step 1 and has great letters from all his clerkships.

What chances would this person have at matching into a plastic or dermatology residency at a one of the best hospitals?

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[dsk89]

Im not considering Caribbean schools but I'm bored and trying to distract myself from my empty inbox. I know Caribbean schools are said to not be good because it is tough to match into residency. So I have made up this hypothetical situation to see what you guys think.

Lets say someone goes into a Caribbean school, is number 1 in the class all through pre-clinical and clinical years. Scores a 270+ on his step 1 and has great letters from all his clerkships.

What chances would this person have at matching into a plastic or dermatology residency at a one of the best hospitals?

A person with those kind of credentials can probably match into a good program in most residencies, but I think plastics/derm might still be out of reach (especially at one of the best hospitals) considering that there are already so few spots available and these will probably all go to US MD students.

 

[mmmcdowe]

Im not considering Caribbean schools but I'm bored and trying to distract myself from my empty inbox. I know Caribbean schools are said to not be good because it is tough to match into residency. So I have made up this hypothetical situation to see what you guys think.

Lets say someone goes into a Caribbean school, is number 1 in the class all through pre-clinical and clinical years. Scores a 270+ on his step 1 and has great letters from all his clerkships.

What chances would this person have at matching into a plastic or dermatology residency at a one of the best hospitals?

Near 0, many top programs do not accept FMG applications.

 

[487806]

Near 0, many top programs do not accept FMG applications.

So, in an ordinary "low-tier" program, would there be a 10-30% chance?

 

[Izanami]

Very close to nil. For derm or plastics, those credentials are a dime a dozen for American grad applicants, why take a Carib?

 

[Wordead]

Derm maybe an outside outside chance...0 for plastics. There are only 100 plastics spots, there's just no way unless you have some crazy connection.

 

[Law2Doc]

Im not considering Caribbean schools but I'm bored and trying to distract myself from my empty inbox. I know Caribbean schools are said to not be good because it is tough to match into residency. So I have made up this hypothetical situation to see what you guys think.

Lets say someone goes into a Caribbean school, is number 1 in the class all through pre-clinical and clinical years. Scores a 270+ on his step 1 and has great letters from all his clerkships.

What chances would this person have at matching into a plastic or dermatology residency at a one of the best hospitals?

Zero. At the "best" residencies they won't look past the fact that you aren't a US allo grad.

 

[Law2Doc]

So, in an ordinary "low-tier" program, would there be a 10-30% chance?

For derm or plastics? NFW. Your odds coming from a Caribbean school are less than 1%. meaning it has happened before, and those schools will get a lot of mileage advertising the heck out of any such success stories, but it's not an every year or even every other year kind of thing.

From any US allo med school (regardless of "tier") there will be a handful of people with a shot at derm or plastics if they want it (most won't). So maybe 10-15% can toy with the idea, with some being longer shots than others. bear in mind though that in my experience the top grads at each school rarely pick derm or plastics. These simply are more popular with premeds than folks who have been through rotations and started thinking about what they see themselves doing for the next 40 years. More often you see the top students picking IM (with plans to go into a subspecialty) or one of the other surgical subspecialties. I'd say at a typical US allo program less than 5 people apply for either derm or plastics even though a dozen or more may have a good shot based on credentials. These simply aren't the most popular fields amongst the very top grads, in my experience. They appeal more to a very specific subset if the top if the class.

 

[sommerwing]

Anyone capable of receiving a 270+ on the Step 1 (absolutely ridiculous score) will have no trouble getting a great MCAT score and going to a US med school.

If you are not capable of extremely well on the MCAT, don't expect any different for the Step. There are variables in performance, but not when you get to the 260+ scores.

Go to a US med school.

 

[Law2Doc]

Anyone capable of receiving a 270+ on the Step 1 (absolutely ridiculous score) will have no trouble getting a great MCAT score and going to a US med school.

If you are not capable of extremely well on the MCAT, don't expect any different for the Step. There are variables in performance, but not when you get to the 260+ scores.

Go to a US med school.

Probably true for most, but I've certainly met nontrads who have dug huge holes for themselves in undergrad decade(s) ago and turned things around later in life. Such a person might be a longer shot for US allo, but do quite well once they get in someplace. I wouldn't put too much weight on these tests as indicators on how people do on subsequent things.

 

[WaterPog]

http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2011.pdf

doesn't tell the whole story, lumps everyone who isn't a USMD senior into one group, but it's a damn good start

 

[cheesier]

I remember that Hopkins show (or maybe the Harvard one) having a Ross graduate in an IM residency. Doesn't really answer your question, but it seems to be possible for a Caribbean graduate to get into a top program.

 

[487806]

I remember that Hopkins show (or maybe the Harvard one) having a Ross graduate in an IM residency. Doesn't really answer your question, but it seems to be possible for a Caribbean graduate to get into a top program.

That's an exception, not a norm. With increasing competition for very limited residency openings, I wouldn't be surprised if residencies closed the doors on IMGs and FMGs sometime soon.

 

[laricb]

Im not considering Caribbean schools but I'm bored and trying to distract myself from my empty inbox. I know Caribbean schools are said to not be good because it is tough to match into residency. So I have made up this hypothetical situation to see what you guys think.

Lets say someone goes into a Caribbean school, is number 1 in the class all through pre-clinical and clinical years. Scores a 270+ on his step 1 and has great letters from all his clerkships.

What chances would this person have at matching into a plastic or dermatology residency at a one of the best hospitals?

If you decide your future reading info from this website your crazy. These guys speak as if there doctors and experienced in the field. They are just so biased against a carib student you would never get a straight or correct answer. I understand you are shooting for the moon but if you can score anything close to those numbers you would have many choices to pick from..

 

[sommerwing]

If you decide your future reading info from this website your crazy. These guys speak as if there doctors and experienced in the field. They are just so biased against a carib student you would never get a straight or correct answer. I understand you are shooting for the moon but if you can score anything close to those numbers you would have many choices to pick from..

Law2Doc is a doctor, and recent graduates are now more intuitive of the selection process than "older experienced physicians" as it's now basically a different field than when they were participating in the system decades ago.


Another thing that must be considered is that the US is increasing its number of medical schools/student classes. Unfortunately, it is not increasing the number of residencies, and hence there will be less and less US residency options for offshore graduates.

The field is changing, and unfortunately it'll be more and more difficult for carribean students to find good residencies in the very near future. Whether you may like it or not, they are phasing out international medical graduates.


So, like I said. Do Not Go to the Carribeans, if you have the option of taking a year or two off to build your application to a decent competitiveness for US schools, take that option. Otherwise, go DO.

 

[487806]

If you decide your future reading info from this website your crazy. These guys speak as if there doctors and experienced in the field. They are just so biased against a carib student you would never get a straight or correct answer. I understand you are shooting for the moon but if you can score anything close to those numbers you would have many choices to pick from..

Grammar fail.

Well, the truth hurts. The competition is getting more intense, so the US residencies will eventually close all doors to IMGs and FMGs.

Also, unlike other forums, this is a very legitimate forum, and the many members are in fact doctors and adcoms. Take their advice with a grain of salt if you want to, but they are viewed as trustworthy individuals in the forum.

 

[KnuxNole]

I trusted this site much more than academic "advisors" in college

 

[487806]

I trusted this site much more than academic "advisors" in college

Very true statement. Couldn't have said it better.

 

[Law2Doc]

If you decide your future reading info from this website your crazy. These guys speak as if there doctors and experienced in the field. They are just so biased against a carib student you would never get a straight or correct answer. I understand you are shooting for the moon but if you can score anything close to those numbers you would have many choices to pick from..

As one of the doctors on here, I encourage you to do independent research in addition to what you read on here. Some things, like AAMCs call for US med schools to increase enrollment, the plateau of number of residency slots for many years, the increase in number of new med schools, the decrease of prematch options, the US favoring SOAP rules, and the high attrition rates of offshore schools are public knowledge and you can find great info on google.

 

[Dr Dazzle]

Why not go DO if you have a slightly lower MCAT? Seems like a perfectly legit option. Additionally, with the recent ruling on AOA and ACGME, the DO and MD will be virtually indistinguishable in the very near future. DO's just have an additional tool to care for patients known as OMT.

 

[Fivo]

Why not go DO if you have a slightly lower MCAT? Seems like a perfectly legit option. Additionally, with the recent ruling on AOA and ACGME, the DO and MD will be virtually indistinguishable in the very near future. DO's just have an additional tool to care for patients known as OMT.

So basically in a few years, DO > MD, right?

 

[corpsman33]

Grammar fail.

Well, the truth hurts. The competition is getting more intense, so the US residencies will eventually close all doors to IMGs and FMGs.

Also, unlike other forums, this is a very legitimate forum, and the many members are in fact doctors and adcoms. Take their advice with a grain of salt if you want to, but they are viewed as trustworthy individuals in the forum.

Actually this is close to happening now. The ACGME made a ruling (probably will be signed into their by-laws in February) that any person who completes a non-ACGME internship (i.e. IMG/FMG internship), that year will not be counted towards applying to an ACGME residency. Also, anybody who completes a non-ACGME residency will not be eligible to apply for an ACGME fellowship. This is just another huuuge hurdle that foreign grads have to jump through.
As a side note, Osteopathic physicians (D.O.) were also going to be screwed over by this ruling, but side-stepped the whole mess by negotiating that all AOA residencies will be accredited by the ACGME and not the AOA (the same as M.D.s). This will also probably be signed into effect in February.
This ruling is a win/win for D.O.s and M.D.s but a huge lose for IMG/FMGs because not only will less foreign grads be applying to our residencies, but MDs can now (probably, but not 100% decided yet) apply to DO residencies (previously forbidden) because they will be accredited by the ACGME. This should open up a huge amount of residency slots. This should all start taking place in 2015.

 

[laricb]

Actually this is close to happening now. The ACGME made a ruling (probably will be signed into their by-laws in February) that any person who completes a non-ACGME internship (i.e. IMG/FMG internship), that year will not be counted towards applying to an ACGME residency. Also, anybody who completes a non-ACGME residency will not be eligible to apply for an ACGME fellowship. This is just another huuuge hurdle that foreign grads have to jump through.
As a side note, Osteopathic physicians (D.O.) were also going to be screwed over by this ruling, but side-stepped the whole mess by negotiating that all AOA residencies will be accredited by the ACGME and not the AOA (the same as M.D.s). This will also probably be signed into effect in February.
This ruling is a win/win for D.O.s and M.D.s but a huge lose for IMG/FMGs because not only will less foreign grads be applying to our residencies, but MDs can now (probably, but not 100% decided yet) apply to DO residencies (previously forbidden) because they will be accredited by the ACGME. This should open up a huge amount of residency slots. This should all start taking place in 2015.

Amazing I can"t find this ruling anywhere online

 

[Praefectus]

So basically now, DO > foreign MD, right?

Fixed.

 

[laricb]

Grammar fail.

Well, the truth hurts. The competition is getting more intense, so the US residencies will eventually close all doors to IMGs and FMGs.

Also, unlike other forums, this is a very legitimate forum, and the many members are in fact doctors and adcoms. Take their advice with a grain of salt if you want to, but they are viewed as trustworthy individuals in the forum.

With the millions of dollars that SGU and ROSS pay there lobbyist and program directors, I don't believe this will ever happen.It is a multi million dollar business and money controls everything in this country

 

[Fivo]

With the millions of dollars that SGU and ROSS pay there lobbyist and program directors, I don't believe this will ever happen.

You better believe it! Caribbrahs are goin down and it ain't gonna be pretty

 

[sinombre]

Why not go DO if you have a slightly lower MCAT? Seems like a perfectly legit option. Additionally, with the recent ruling on AOA and ACGME, the DO and MD will be virtually indistinguishable in the very near future. DO's just have an additional tool to care for patients known as OMT.

Tell that to the program directors I work with.

 

[corpsman33]

Amazing I can"t find this ruling anywhere online

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accreditation_Council_for_Graduate_Medical_Education

Look under program requirements.

http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/Pages/stop-ACGME-training-limits-for-DOs.aspx

There are many more sites detailing it as well.

Also, as a side note, it looks like Canadian graduates will be unaffected by the ruling.

 

[corpsman33]

Fixed.

Damn straight.......

 

[corpsman33]

With the millions of dollars that SGU and ROSS pay there lobbyist and program directors, I don't believe this will ever happen.It is a multi million dollar business and money controls everything in this country

It is already happening......I guess they need to fire their lobbyists and program directors.

 

[laricb]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accreditation_Council_for_Graduate_Medical_Education

Look under program requirements.

http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/Pages/stop-ACGME-training-limits-for-DOs.aspx

There are many more sites detailing it as well.

Also, as a side note, it looks like Canadian graduates will be unaffected by the ruling.

I don"t see where it says foreign medical schools are not accredited

 

[laricb]

It is already happening......I guess they need to fire their lobbyists and program directors.

Funny I received a residency in Anesthesiology last year. It didn't affect me and I graduated SGU..

 

[corpsman33]

I don"t see where it says foreign medical schools are not accredited

The schools are fine, if they come straight to a US residency directly from an ACGME recognized accredited school. But if they do an IMG/FMG internship or residency first (i.e. non-ACGME) then they are S.O.L.

 

[corpsman33]

Funny I received a residency in Anesthesiology last year. It didn't affect me and I graduated SGU..

I said their laws are currently being changed (i.e. happening now) but it won't start until 2015 and it won't hurt anybody currently in a residency.

 

[laricb]

The schools are fine, if they come straight to a US residency directly from an ACGME recognized accredited school. But if they do an IMG/FMG internship or residency first (i.e. non-ACGME) then they are S.O.L.

I fully agree with that, You should have to do a residency in the U.S.

 

[corpsman33]

I don"t see where it says foreign medical schools are not accredited

They don't directly say that IMG/FMGs are getting the short end of the stick, but the president of the AOA is our dean and he addressed our class yesterday (he is the one who helped ensure that DOs were not left out of the equation) and trust me......it's happening.

 

[laricb]

I said their laws are currently being changed (i.e. happening now) but it won't start until 2015 and it won't hurt anybody currently in a residency.

Stop trying to read into the future laws change every year. There is going to be a huge shortage of doctors in 5 yrs This country is not going to be able to build and teach enough hospitals, students in the U.S.

 

[sinombre]

Funny I received a residency in Anesthesiology last year. It didn't affect me and I graduated SGU..

Do you understand why you shouldn't draw conclusions from anecdotal evidence?

 

[corpsman33]

I fully agree with that, You should have to do a residency in the U.S.

Ok, so you just misunderstood what I was saying. Just curious, but how many foreign grads do a foreign internship or residency first before applying for a residency or fellowship in the states? Because those are the ones who will be affected.

 

[corpsman33]

Stop trying to read into the future laws change every year. There is going to be a huge shortage of doctors in 5 yrs This country is not going to be able to build and teach enough hospitals, students in the U.S.

The number of medical students are increasing at an incredible rate.......way faster then the number of residency spots are increasing. Pretty soon there will be more students then positions available. They did this to protect US grads. Also it was a quality control issue regarding foreign residencies (not foreign medical students).

 

[laricb]

The number of medical students are increasing at an incredible rate.......way faster then the number of residency spots are increasing. Pretty soon there will be more students then positions available. They did this to protect US grads. Also it was a quality control issue regarding foreign residencies (not foreign medical students).

Understood but congress has a bill in the house right now to increase the residency positions by 15,000 over the next 5 yrs and that still wont cover the shortage..

 

[corpsman33]

Understood but congress has a bill in the house right now to increase the residency positions by 15,000 over the next 5 yrs and that still wont cover the shortage..

Unfortunately it still doesn't change what the ACGME ruled.

 

[KnuxNole]

I dunno why laricb is so biased towards Caribbean schools...

 

[Fivo]

I dunno why laricb is so biased towards Caribbean schools...

Caribbeans gonna Caribb

 

[KnuxNole]

It's interesting because on the interview trail, the Carib students aren't this happy go lucky about their school and the future prospects of being an IMG, and are saying they are lucky to be going for the match this year.


I also noticed someone trying to convince a person that Ross was a school in New Jersey

 

[sinombre]

Caribbeans gonna Caribb

yah mon.

 

[487806]

With the millions of dollars that SGU and ROSS pay there lobbyist and program directors, I don't believe this will ever happen.It is a multi million dollar business and money controls everything in this country

You can disagree as much as you want. This is reality, and the truth can sting very badly.

Actually this is close to happening now. The ACGME made a ruling (probably will be signed into their by-laws in February) that any person who completes a non-ACGME internship (i.e. IMG/FMG internship), that year will not be counted towards applying to an ACGME residency. Also, anybody who completes a non-ACGME residency will not be eligible to apply for an ACGME fellowship. This is just another huuuge hurdle that foreign grads have to jump through.
As a side note, Osteopathic physicians (D.O.) were also going to be screwed over by this ruling, but side-stepped the whole mess by negotiating that all AOA residencies will be accredited by the ACGME and not the AOA (the same as M.D.s). This will also probably be signed into effect in February.
This ruling is a win/win for D.O.s and M.D.s but a huge lose for IMG/FMGs because not only will less foreign grads be applying to our residencies, but MDs can now (probably, but not 100% decided yet) apply to DO residencies (previously forbidden) because they will be accredited by the ACGME. This should open up a huge amount of residency slots. This should all start taking place in 2015.

That quick! Wow. Well, this ruling effectively shot down any hopes of FMGs and IMGs to acquire US residencies now. However, this ruling perfectly makes sense by my earlier assertion. US residencies expect students to have graduated from US medical schools. It is completely unfair for a US medical student to lose a residency spot to a FMG/IMG, so the ACGME ruling is completely justified.

 

[KnuxNole]

That is also very scary if program directors are being paid to take their students. It's probably in a place where they are scutted out and not getting a good education. I would imagine a normal PD would take someone they feel won't kill their patients, is competent, and is someone they can work with for X years over someone who would net them some money in their pocket.

 

[sinombre]

That is also very scary if program directors are being paid to take their students. It's probably in a place where they are scutted out and not getting a good education. I would imagine a normal PD would take someone they feel won't kill their patients, is competent, and is someone they can work with for X years over someone who would net them some money in their pocket.

I would be very surprised if this was actually taking place at any academic institution... don't they all have conflict of interest committees? They definitely do in California.

 

[Dr Dazzle]

Tell that to the program directors I work with.

That is true...there is certainly bias as far as some discriminatory PDs shutting out DOs from getting interviews. However, this is surely going to diminish in the next couple years when 2015 changes come about. Further, there will also be discrimination by the DO PDs from accepting MD grads to the former AOA residencies. Can't deny that. However, I think DOs and MDs are very much on equal footing, and when the stats are same, some auditions at a couple places will more than make up for a DO at many residencies. Seems that literally many specialty options will be very much open for DO grads. What do you all think?