Current Dentists: Is this career still worth pursuing for the money?

[mmc12]

As for the medicine route. Well .... dentistry had ownership and lifestyle as their primary advantages. Take away ownership ..... and .... the decision process would start to lean medicine. Medicine is recession proof. The biggest positive for myself in considering medicine is that ............. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO SELL YOUR SERVICES. That's probably the biggest disappointment for myself with dentistry. Too much advertisements. Free bleaching. $1000 off Invisalign. Free orthodontic evaluations. $99 for dental exam and cleaning (**** simple cleaning .. .whatever that is .... patients don't know). Everytime dentists reduce our fees, offer free exams, discount our services .... we cheapen our profession. No better than attorneys on billboards. But .... it is what it is.

Also, it's a lot harder to find physicians on GROUPON than dentists...

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[321931]

Also, it's a lot harder to find physicians on GROUPON than dentists...

No offense, but dentists on group-on are seriously scraping the bottom of the barrel. From my friend's experience- the yelpers/groupon people are always looking for the freebies/discounts and are also the hardest to please. They also don't expect to pay anything.

I'm glad I'm in a location where I don't have to do free bleaching, money off, 99$ exams or discount my services.

 

[Cold Front]

I think it’s unlikely that tuition will go up to 1 million. It will most likely hover at 500k mark, a point where you still have plenty of people sign up. Anyways, people are betting on government to bail them out, which has approved a meager 1% of loan forgiveness applicants so far.

The top 10 programs that received the “highest” government/financial aid student loans last year, 8 of them were dental schools.

A dental school graduate who had “average” undergrad student loan (~$40-50k) + average dental school loans (~$350k) + average Endo/ortho/pros residency debt (~$250k) = $650k before compounding interest, or ~$800k with the interest. Those are average numbers, which means a lot of graduates are above and below that $800k number. The top 5% in student loans for new dentists are in the $900k-1.1M range. All these numbers will go up every year by 4-5% plus 7% interest.

 

[321931]

The top 10 programs that received the “highest” government/financial aid student loans last year, 8 of them were dental schools.

A dental school graduate who had “average” undergrad student loan (~$40-50k) + average dental school loans (~$350k) + average Endo/ortho/pros residency debt (~$250k) = $650k before compounding interest, or ~$800k with the interest. Those are average numbers, which means a lot of graduates are above and below that $800k number. The top 5% in student loans for new dentists are in the $900k-1.1M range. All these numbers will go up every year by 4-5% plus 7% interest.

Dam. That's actually pretty depressing.

 

[ToothJockey]

Can't see dentists stop taking insurance. You can stop taking certain types of insurance, but not all insurance. We would all love to have FFS cash practices, but that is not reality. Patients are so used to small co-pays when they see their physicians. In time the public may expect to see the same in dental offices.

As for the medicine route. Well .... dentistry had ownership and lifestyle as their primary advantages. Take away ownership ..... and .... the decision process would start to lean medicine. Medicine is recession proof. The biggest positive for myself in considering medicine is that ............. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO SELL YOUR SERVICES. That's probably the biggest disappointment for myself with dentistry. Too much advertisements. Free bleaching. $1000 off Invisalign. Free orthodontic evaluations. $99 for dental exam and cleaning (**** simple cleaning .. .whatever that is .... patients don't know). Everytime dentists reduce our fees, offer free exams, discount our services .... we cheapen our profession. No better than attorneys on billboards. But .... it is what it is.

If your plan is to practice in saturated areas .... medicine is probably the better route. If you can attend a cheaper dental school and have plans to open a small mom and pop dental office in a nice, rural town .... then dentistry is better. Maybe that's the answer? Pre-dents/Pre-meds should consider WHERE and HOW they want to practice .... then decide on dental vs. medicine.

I'm not a dentist so I'll take your word for it, but if insurance reimbursements keep going down while operating costs keep increasing, won't dentists as a whole need to stop accepting insurance, or atleast the ones with low reimbursements. Net income is Practice Revenue - Overhead. Overhead will keep increasing due to inflation, and if practice revenue decreases due to lower reimbursements what can the dentist do here except to cut out the reason for the lower practice revenue?

And I agree an owner dentist making 300k a year working <40 hrs per week is probably better off than their medical counterparts. But in the future these dentists will be few and far between, as corporate takes over most dentists will be employees rather than owners. From what I read on these threads corporate dentists typically make <150k a year and get worked like a dog. Is that really better than medicine? Another thing to note is that there is a physician shortage right now, especially in primary care. Compare that to dentistry...you see what I mean. Finding full time work as a physician in the future should be easier than finding full time work as a dentist.

And as you said, in dentistry you have to sell your services. You can't ignore heart problems, cancer, or a broken tibia. But you can put off elective dental treatment. That's precisely why I'm saying medicine is looking really nice right now. Maybe I'm just having grass is greener syndrome.

 

[321931]

I'm not a dentist so I'll take your word for it, but if insurance reimbursements keep going down while operating costs keep increasing, won't dentists as a whole need to stop accepting insurance, or atleast the ones with low reimbursements. Net income is Practice Revenue - Overhead. Overhead will keep increasing due to inflation, and if practice revenue decreases due to lower reimbursements what can the dentist do here except to cut out the reason for the lower practice revenue?

And I agree an owner dentist making 300k a year working <40 hrs per week is probably better off than their medical counterparts. But in the future these dentists will be few and far between, as corporate takes over most dentists will be employees rather than owners. From what I read on these threads corporate dentists typically make <150k a year and get worked like a dog. Is that really better than medicine? Another thing to note is that there is a physician shortage right now, especially in primary care. Compare that to dentistry...you see what I mean. Finding full time work as a physician in the future should be easier than finding full time work as a dentist.

And as you said, in dentistry you have to sell your services. You can't ignore heart problems, cancer, or a broken tibia. But you can put off elective dental treatment. That's precisely why I'm saying medicine is looking really nice right now. Maybe I'm just having grass is greener syndrome.

Getting rid of your "lower reimbursements" will literally bankrupt you. Patient's come because they have insurance. Most patients get their dental insurance through employers. They have anywhere from 100% coverage to 80% coverage to 50% coverage. Most exams and cleanings are 100% covered, and major work 50-80%. Why would a patient want to go out of network and pay more for a crown or a filling. There are some offices that have dropped insurance but this took years and some are successful and some aren't. Some drop the alot of insurances but still take the big players because they just can't keep in business without it.

I work next to an out of network office. They are successful but the owner literally worked for 20 years, and gained the patient's trust and slowly dropped plans...and he is still busy. But we got A TON of patients that came to us because we are in network. The one saving grace of dentistry is that overhead is literally 50-70%. So if insurance does "cut" here and there and there is wage inflation and overhead creeps up...maybe in 10 years the overhead becomes 55-75%...which isn't much in the long run. So dentists will survive. Yes it won't be as good 10 years into the future and 20 years into it. But I still see the job viable for decades to come.

 

[2TH MVR]

I'm not a dentist so I'll take your word for it, but if insurance reimbursements keep going down while operating costs keep increasing, won't dentists as a whole need to stop accepting insurance, or atleast the ones with low reimbursements. Net income is Practice Revenue - Overhead. Overhead will keep increasing due to inflation, and if practice revenue decreases due to lower reimbursements what can the dentist do here except to cut out the reason for the lower practice revenue?

And I agree an owner dentist making 300k a year working <40 hrs per week is probably better off than their medical counterparts. But in the future these dentists will be few and far between, as corporate takes over most dentists will be employees rather than owners. From what I read on these threads corporate dentists typically make <150k a year and get worked like a dog. Is that really better than medicine? Another thing to note is that there is a physician shortage right now, especially in primary care. Compare that to dentistry...you see what I mean. Finding full time work as a physician in the future should be easier than finding full time work as a dentist.

And as you said, in dentistry you have to sell your services. You can't ignore heart problems, cancer, or a broken tibia. But you can put off elective dental treatment. That's precisely why I'm saying medicine is looking really nice right now. Maybe I'm just having grass is greener syndrome.

Again ... unlike medicine .... dentists need to ATTRACT new patients. If patients were lined up outside your door ... then you could choose to not accept lower reimbursements. There is huge competition for new dental patients. New patients are everything. In saturated areas .... it doesn't matter if you are a seasoned GP or ortho like myself ..... the new patient pie can only be cut into so many pieces. New patients have their pick of private GP offices, Specialty offices, Corps with specialists, or GP/Pedo offices who bring in other specialists. So many options in a SATURATED area.

Like I said earlier .... if you can graduate with relative low debt. Choose a nice rural area to open a mom and pop office .... dentistry can be great and fulfilling. BETTER THAN MEDICINE imo. If you choose to compete in the saturated areas (rat-race) .... good luck. Some are good at this (@charlestweed ) and quite successful, but he works his butt off 6-7 days per week. He accepts low fees and as he states ... he relates directly with his patients. All good. Again .... just not my idea of practicing.

Medicine is different. Medicine is less about business and more about patient care. Most in medicine are EMPLOYEES .... just like dentists who work for Corps. There are exceptions (Derm, Plastic, etc.) but for the most part ..... they are employees who work for Big Corps. It;s not all easy gravy in those hospitals or urgent cares, etc. etc. I'm sure a medical dr is going to have to work really hard, see tons of patients, medical reimbursements are a challenge for the Hospitals just like dentistry. Nothing is free. And ...... your hours are going to suck worse than a dentist. But I would hope that the larger medical corps would treat their employee drs better than the smaller dental corps. But I do not know. Would be interesting to hear a new medical dr's opinion on how they are treated.

 

[charlestweed]

I'm not a dentist so I'll take your word for it, but if insurance reimbursements keep going down while operating costs keep increasing, won't dentists as a whole need to stop accepting insurance, or atleast the ones with low reimbursements. Net income is Practice Revenue - Overhead. Overhead will keep increasing due to inflation, and if practice revenue decreases due to lower reimbursements what can the dentist do here except to cut out the reason for the lower practice revenue?

Most private practice owners don’t accept HMO insurances and medicaid because they would lose money if they accepted these plans. The patients, who have HMO and medicaid, have no other choices but to get dental treatments at corp offices because corp offices accept their plans. So how do corps make money? High patient volume, low overhead, convincing patients to upgrade treatments, referring cases to their own in-house specialists for better payments from the insurance companies etc. Dentists, who know how reduce the overhead to compensate for the reduction in payments from insurance companies, are still doing ok. And when these dentists pay off most of their debts in 5-10 years, they will end up netting more even when their offices produce less.

And as you said, in dentistry you have to sell your services. You can't ignore heart problems, cancer, or a broken tibia. But you can put off elective dental treatment. That's precisely why I'm saying medicine is looking really nice right now. Maybe I'm just having grass is greener syndrome.

At least the dentists can deny treating the patients when the patients don’t have money. The doctors cannot do that. My cousin is a MD anesthesiologist. Many of the patients at the hospital he works for are illegal immigrants....and they don’t have money but he still has to save their lives. He sents them the bills afterward but they never pay him. It’s not totally recession proof. When the economy is down, my cousin gets fewer cases….fewer plastic surgery cases, fewer non-life threatening corrective surgical cases.

 

[ToothJockey]

Getting rid of your "lower reimbursements" will literally bankrupt you. Patient's come because they have insurance. Most patients get their dental insurance through employers. They have anywhere from 100% coverage to 80% coverage to 50% coverage. Most exams and cleanings are 100% covered, and major work 50-80%. Why would a patient want to go out of network and pay more for a crown or a filling. There are some offices that have dropped insurance but this took years and some are successful and some aren't. Some drop the alot of insurances but still take the big players because they just can't keep in business without it.

I work next to an out of network office. They are successful but the owner literally worked for 20 years, and gained the patient's trust and slowly dropped plans...and he is still busy. But we got A TON of patients that came to us because we are in network. The one saving grace of dentistry is that overhead is literally 50-70%. So if insurance does "cut" here and there and there is wage inflation and overhead creeps up...maybe in 10 years the overhead becomes 55-75%...which isn't much in the long run. So dentists will survive. Yes it won't be as good 10 years into the future and 20 years into it. But I still see the job viable for decades to come.

I understand your point, but I'll give an example. Suppose a practice brings in $1 mil a year, and has 65% overhead, or $650k. Suppose in 2060 that same practice brings in $1 mil a year, but now due to 3% inflation the overhead is $850-900k, which is reasonable if you run the numbers for increasing rent, supplies, staff salaries etc over the next 40 years.
So now the dentist takes home $100-150k instead of the $350k he was bringing in earlier, for roughly the same amount of work. It doesn't really have to do with insurance, but rather the raw income the dental practice brings in. To make $350k in 2060 the dentist will have to increase practice revenue to $1.2 mil. Where is that extra production going to come from in a more saturated market? To make matters worse, the purchasing power of $350k in 2060 won't be the same as it is now.

Now also take into account the $1 mil loan graduates may have to face in the future. That is $80k a year in loan payments for 30 years. Then also add in the dental practice loan if we are talking of an owner. That's another 50k a year or so for 10+ years. Now you see my concern. The insurance thing was just an example, my real point was to show that when I run the numbers I see a future dentist in 2060 barely being able to afford a studio apartment.

And personally I plan on practicing past 2060 so this could be reality for me and my peers. You may be retired by then so this might not even effect you.

 

[321931]

I understand your point, but I'll give an example. Suppose a practice brings in $1 mil a year, and has 65% overhead, or $650k. Suppose in 2060 that same practice brings in $1 mil a year, but now due to 3% inflation the overhead is $850-900k, which is reasonable if you run the numbers for increasing rent, supplies, staff salaries etc over the next 40 years.
So now the dentist takes home $100-150k instead of the $350k he was bringing in earlier, for roughly the same amount of work. It doesn't really have to do with insurance, but rather the raw income the dental practice brings in. To make $350k in 2060 the dentist will have to increase practice revenue to $1.2 mil. Where is that extra production going to come from in a more saturated market? To make matters worse, the purchasing power of $350k in 2060 won't be the same as it is now.

Now also take into account the $1 mil loan graduates may have to face in the future. That is $80k a year in loan payments for 30 years. Then also add in the dental practice loan if we are talking of an owner. That's another 50k a year or so for 10+ years. Now you see my concern. The insurance thing was just an example, my real point was to show that when I run the numbers I see a future dentist in 2060 barely being able to afford a studio apartment.

And personally I plan on practicing past 2060 so this could be reality for me and my peers. You may be retired by then so this might not even effect you.

You have an understanding of some of the financials of practice ownership...however I would not go that "far" into the future. Look 10-20 years in. 2060 is literally 40 years away. Who the heck knows if we will be around in 40 years. You could "plan" to work that long but that's like 40 years dude. That's a LONG time.

And no offense- but practicing medicine- you are going to run into medicare for all over and over again. If that ever passes- you will be working 60-80 hours a week for "European" salaries which is like 60-80k a year for a freaking specialist. Medicine is at risk for the MOST change. Noone cares about dentists. In single-payer countries- medicine is single-payer- while dentistry is just left alone- private pay and or insurance.

So in 40 years- yes who knows dentistry just isn't going to have the same purchasing power. But at the same time, what do you think will happen to medicine? Every election, every decade there is a constant push for healthcare for all. Maybe one day in 40 years it will pass. Maybe there are more PA's and Nurses with expanded duties and medical doctors get pushed to the side for cheaper alternatives. You can say bye to your medicine purchasing power.

 

[ToothJockey]

if you can graduate with relative low debt.

This is easier said than done. Even the tuition in in-state schools is increasing pretty rapidly. It's not unreasonable to assume that even an in-state school will be 500k+ in 10 years with 5% increase in tuition.

I'm sure a medical dr is going to have to work really hard, see tons of patients, medical reimbursements are a challenge for the Hospitals just like dentistry.

I do agree here, even on the med forums it seems doctors have to work harder to make the same amount of money. The difference is that medical incomes are actually increasing except for a select few subspecialties. Atleast those hospital jobs pay well, compared to corp dental jobs. Don't believe me? Look at the MGMA link I provided for physician compensation.

And when these dentists pay off most of their debts in 5-10 years, they will end up netting more even when their offices produce less.

I just don't see this as realistic though. Paying off a 500k+ student loan in 5-10 years is very difficult, especially with 7% interest rates. Then you take into account the dental practice loan and it becomes overwhelming. You could probably pull it off if you lived off of less than 20k a year, but that brings into the original question "Is the career still worth pursuing for the money" to which the answer is a resounding NO. Your hygienist is in a better financial situation than you are lol.

I feel like I'm trying to convince myself not to go to dental school

 

[ToothJockey]

You have an understanding of some of the financials of practice ownership...however I would not go that "far" into the future. Look 10-20 years in. 2060 is literally 40 years away. Who the heck knows if we will be around in 40 years. You could "plan" to work that long but that's like 40 years dude. That's a LONG time.

And no offense- but practicing medicine- you are going to run into medicare for all over and over again. If that ever passes- you will be working 60-80 hours a week for "European" salaries which is like 60-80k a year for a freaking specialist. Medicine is at risk for the MOST change. Noone cares about dentists. In single-payer countries- medicine is single-payer- while dentistry is just left alone- private pay and or insurance.

So in 40 years- yes who knows dentistry just isn't going to have the same purchasing power. But at the same time, what do you think will happen to medicine? Every election, every decade there is a constant push for healthcare for all. Maybe one day in 40 years it will pass. You can say bye to your medicine purchasing power.

That's fair, 40 years really is too far ahead. By then it's possible AI has replaced many jobs (hopefully not us)

But even in the next 10 years I'm not sure dentistry is really worth it for the money as the OP asked. This is mostly due to debt. Dental school debt which will almost certainly be 500k+ for most schools in 10 years, and also dental practice debt which is seen as good debt, but In my opinion no debt is good debt. Then again if you are a pre-dental student, you like healthcare and leadership so your primary career options are in medicine or dentistry. Pick your poison.

I don't see the US healthcare system turning into a socialized healthcare system like you described, but if it does then yes physicians are screwed. Would anyone honestly go through 12 years of tough schooling for 60-80k a year? I'm not a greedy person but no thanks. Even all those doctors that say "It's my calling to practice medicine" will quickly lose their "calling".

Also on a side note, it is 3 PM on a Tuesday, and so far 3 of you dentists have time to have a conversation with me lol. You guys are living the life.

 

[charlestweed]

Also on a side note, it is 3 PM on a Tuesday, and so far 3 of you dentists have time to have a conversation with me lol. You guys are living the life.

I am on my way to work. I start at 2pm.

 

[Cold Front]

Also on a side note, it is 3 PM on a Tuesday, and so far 3 of you dentists have time to have a conversation with me lol. You guys are living the life.

We are in our 40’s and 50’s. We have been in the trenches for couple of decades now.

I work about 30 hours a week, and have long weekends off every week (Friday to Sunday). My work schedule is intense, we see about 50 patients a day, of all insurances. I’m fortunate to have great staff who have vowed to stay with me until I retire. I’m the second youngest member of a staff of 10 people, so a lot of experienced people around me, all work independently and I’m hands off 80% of the time.

So yeah, I do have the time to read and follow topics on SDN and DT during my work schedule (and watch some CNBC on tv in my small corner of the office)... or I would go crazy if I had nothing else to distract me.

 

[321931]

That's fair, 40 years really is too far ahead. By then it's possible AI has replaced many jobs (hopefully not us)

But even in the next 10 years I'm not sure dentistry is really worth it for the money as the OP asked. This is mostly due to debt. Dental school debt which will almost certainly be 500k+ for most schools in 10 years, and also dental practice debt which is seen as good debt, but In my opinion no debt is good debt. Then again if you are a pre-dental student, you like healthcare and leadership so your primary career options are in medicine or dentistry. Pick your poison.

I don't see the US healthcare system turning into a socialized healthcare system like you described, but if it does then yes physicians are screwed. Would anyone honestly go through 12 years of tough schooling for 60-80k a year? I'm not a greedy person but no thanks. Even all those doctors that say "It's my calling to practice medicine" will quickly lose their "calling".

Also on a side note, it is 3 PM on a Tuesday, and so far 3 of you dentists have time to have a conversation with me lol. You guys are living the life.

Dentistry really has it's pros in a way. My typical day consists of 1-2 crowns 3-5 fills and 18-20 hygiene exams. Doing actual work work...consitutes maybe like 1-2 hours of actually sitting down and drilling/anesthesia/filling/talking with patients. The other 6 hours of my 8 hour day consist of sitting on the computer, typing notes, watching stocks, watching cnbc, chatting with the front, napping, eating, starbucks runs, texting, and doing paperwork. If you think my SDN account has alot of posts (1500)- my stocktwits and seekingalpha stock account has 10x more. Lol. Talking stocks is way more fun.

It's legit a good job. Some days I'm on roller skates where I'm literally swamped with patients and have no time to eat. But those are like maybe 1-2 x a month and rare. December is pretty crazy though as its end of the year. But most days are chill...and medicine...well good luck with those days.

 

[mmc12]

If your plan is to practice in saturated areas .... medicine is probably the better route. If you can attend a cheaper dental school and have plans to open a small mom and pop dental office in a nice, rural town .... then dentistry is better. Maybe that's the answer? Pre-dents/Pre-meds should consider WHERE and HOW they want to practice .... then decide on dental vs. medicine.

Do physicians have any saturation issues in highly desirable areas? (LA, NYC). Are their salaries affected?

 

[Rambunctious]

Hello SDN,

I have recently posted this on Reddit and wanted to get opinions from people in this forum to get a variety of perspectives/views.

I know that other people may have already asked this question in years past, but I would like to get some updated thoughts from current dentists/new graduates as to whether the profession is still worth pursuing "for the money." I know that it is common for many people to advise not to pursue any career for solely "the money", but realistically, we all need to find something to financially support ourselves, whether we like our jobs or not, and figured that this is a stable secure profession going into the future.
After doing a decent amount of shadowing (both ortho and many general dentists) I've found the experience to be okay, but I'm not particularly "passionate" or crazy about teeth in general. I just wanted to pursue dental school over med school because I've always loved science that both could involve, but felt that the work-life balance of a dentist beat the lifestyle/stress of an MD. I also do enjoy the aspect of helping people in the community/healthcare setting.

I've recently graduated with a BSc in Bioinformatics and also enjoy the more tech side of things as well. I just feel that dentistry may be more secure than tech going into the future due to its higher barrier of entry, and figured I should give it a shot before I get too old. But I could also be completely wrong about this as tech jobs are booming in general and I could gain some more experience programming and working in related tech fields.

My GPA, DAT score, and resume are very competitive, so I think I will be a good candidate for when I apply. I just want to know whether this would be a good investment of my time, or if I should build on what I already have attained with my bioinformatics knowledge.

I have two major concerns before moving forward and actually applying for dental school.

1. The average debt: $300k as the average school debt does scare me, but I read/hear about many different opinions regarding whether this debt is worth the investment. Majority of people mention that it really is only worth it if I intend on owning my own practice eventually, but I find that to be a little difficult, given that I've never had super strong business acumen (however I figure this can be learned), and have seen the trend of corporatization in dentistry and the increasingly high debts making it harder to even own nowadays. Realistically, I see myself being an associate moreso than a business owner for the rest of my career, as I prefer not to deal with the headaches that come with owning. I also find society's view on how "rich" a dentist is to be quite skewed, as I think this is heavily based on older dentists who were able to open and build their offices with against lesser competition and with higher insurance reimbursements in the past. I feel that this thinking is also skewing my expectation of how lucrative the profession is.
2. The trend towards "medicare for all," which will obviously have a negative impact on salary. My question is, based on your experience as dentists who have been able to observe these trends for a while, how realistic will the single payer system be as a threat towards this profession?

Any thoughts/advice/opinions on this are welcome.

Thank you!

Honestly I dont know why 300K is that scary for a lot of people. It's an investment, just like a house you buy that's easily 400-450K in California. You don't have to pay it all at once or even quickly. Dentistry is still one of the best jobs to have regardless of student loan debt.

I graduated in 2018 and currently making close to $400K a year, as an associate in California. It just depends on how hard you want to work. The debt I have I will pay off in time, there honestly is no rush. All of the money you make doesn't have to pay the loan off you should be using it to invest in other opportunities, real estate, 401k, IRA, etc.

Don't let other people on this forum or dental town convince you that dentistry is not a great career that it still is.

 

[Rambunctious]

That’s quite impressive. What part of CA? Are you a GP?

You must be up in Redding or something.

Let’s just say not LA or SF, which I honestly don’t know why anyone would want to live in those places.

 

[321931]

Honestly I dont know why 300K is that scary for a lot of people. It's an investment, just like a house you buy that's easily 400-450K in California. You don't have to pay it all at once or even quickly. Dentistry is still one of the best jobs to have regardless of student loan debt.

I graduated in 2018 and currently making close to $400K a year, as an associate in California. It just depends on how hard you want to work. The debt I have I will pay off in time, there honestly is no rush. All of the money you make doesn't have to pay the loan off you should be using it to invest in other opportunities, real estate, 401k, IRA, etc.

Don't let other people on this forum or dental town convince you that dentistry is not a great career that it still is.

It's because 300-500k investment doesn't guarantee a net return of 400k a year. It's more like 150k for an associateship.

You are in the .000001% of associate earners. Your broad paintbrush doesn't apply to everyone. Especially when you are part of the .00000001%.

But yes, I do angree with the other sentiments echoed in your post- that it will be paid off- that it will invested. But its much harder to pay it off, and invest it off- and still afford a house etc when you are making the AVERAGE salary of a dentist.

 

[2TH MVR]

Honestly I dont know why 300K is that scary for a lot of people. It's an investment, just like a house you buy that's easily 400-450K in California. You don't have to pay it all at once or even quickly. Dentistry is still one of the best jobs to have regardless of student loan debt.

I graduated in 2018 and currently making close to $400K a year, as an associate in California. It just depends on how hard you want to work. The debt I have I will pay off in time, there honestly is no rush. All of the money you make doesn't have to pay the loan off you should be using it to invest in other opportunities, real estate, 401k, IRA, etc.

Don't let other people on this forum or dental town convince you that dentistry is not a great career that it still is.

1st off .... congrats on your salary. I'm sure you work pretty hard. Would you say your salary as an Associate is representative of any hard working associate in that area? Can you elaborate on how many days you work and what the details of your associateship is?
btw: I believe most here are saying 300K DS debt would be close to the ceiling. It's the students looking at 400K, 500K and above to get the DDS/DMD and then another 250K for a specialty residency that is concerning.
But seriously. Nice to hear a positive story. But again .... is your experience indicative of the vast majority of associateships?

 

[Rambunctious]

It's because 300-500k investment doesn't guarantee a net return of 400k a year. It's more like 150k for an associateship.

You are in the .000001% of associate earners. Your broad paintbrush doesn't apply to everyone. Especially when you are part of the .00000001%.

But yes, I do angree with the other sentiments echoed in your post- that it will be paid off- that it will invested. But its much harder to pay it off, and invest it off- and still afford a house etc when you are making the AVERAGE salary of a dentist.

It’s all about the opportunity you go for. If you want average salary then by all means go work for Corporate dental and/or those cities I mentioned.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

I graduated in 2018 and currently making close to $400K a year, as an associate in California.

Congratulations, you’re an outlier!

Big Hoss

 

[Rambunctious]

Associates are usually paid in between 17% and 33% of adjusted production. In California it’s usually on the lower end, but let’s say you’re getting paid 25%. If you’re producing 1.6million a year that’s $6400 on a 5 day schedule w 2 weeks vacation a year. 6.4k it’s not easy to do on a consistent basis no matter how fast/hard you work, because the number of active patients in the practice and new patient flow needs to be high too.

If it was easy, wouldn't we all do it? You won't find me complaining earning $400K

 

[DDSER1]

If it was easy, wouldn't we all do it? You won't find me complaining earning $400K

Reminds of the quote, “success is uncommon, not to be found by the common man”

Good for you, keep crushing it

 

[Cold Front]

I graduated in 2018 and currently making close to $400K a year, as an associate in California.

With 1 year experience and at $400k salary... you are an anomaly. We don’t know all the details ofcourse; the location, the contract, office fees, your hours, type of procedures... ofcourse if all the stars are lined up, you could have made even more and that $400k would be too low in an alternate universe.

 

[321931]

With 1 year experience and at $400k salary... you are an anomaly. We don’t know all the details ofcourse; the location, the contract, office fees, your hours, type of procedures... ofcourse if all the stars are lined up, you could have made even more and that $400k would be too low in an alternate universe.

If my associate was pumping out 1.6 mil yearly average...then I would never have to work again. I could be an absentee owner on a yacht all day long lol. That's incredible numbers. He pumping out more production than most specialty office 1 year out. Let that sink in for a second. He's solo pumping out more dentistry number wise then 2-3 hygienists 1 doctor combined/a solo specialty office. 1.6 mil average is like 1 doc 2-3 associate private practice. But no we got new grad pumping those numbers out.

This is an extreme outlier. Not even an outlier- this is extreme outlier.

 

[Cold Front]

This is an extreme outlier. Not even an outlier- this is extreme outlier.

Let’s give him the benefit of the doubt... we are all here to see/read what it takes to make $400k with 1 year in the field. Could be an inspirational story, but I agree - a big disclaimer for all pre-dents and dental students, that this is equivalent to a dentist working every Sunday, which doesn’t exist.

 

[Rambunctious]

If my associate was pumping out 1.6 mil yearly average...then I would never have to work again. I could be an absentee owner on a yacht all day long lol. That's incredible numbers. He pumping out more production than most specialty office 1 year out. Let that sink in for a second. He's solo pumping out more dentistry number wise then 2-3 hygienists 1 doctor combined/a solo specialty office. 1.6 mil average is like 1 doc 2-3 associate private practice. But no we got new grad pumping those numbers out.

This is an extreme outlier. Not even an outlier- this is extreme outlier.

lol damn you sound bitterrrrr!!!! You don't have to believe anything on the internet bud. Convince yourself it's not possible if that makes you sleep better at night.

 

[321931]

Let’s give him the benefit of the doubt... we are all here to see/read what it takes to make $400k with 1 year in the field. Could be an inspirational story, but I agree - a big disclaimer for all pre-dents and dental students, that this is equivalent to a dentist working every Sunday, which doesn’t exist.

No. On the contrary- I do believe his post. I mean it's not unheard of to see those numbers for a new grad. However, If another dentist came on this forum and said "I make 70k a year working 6 days a week and dentistry isn't worth it" then I would also call that post an outlier. But the point I'm making is that this is an outlier so I think we are on the same page.

 

[Rambunctious]

I practiced in CA as a GP. Its a large state. It’s not as hard as everyone says once you leave the big cities. For all we know he’s working 6 days a week in Blythe.

5 days a week, location is not in SF and LA

 

[TanMan]

Honestly I dont know why 300K is that scary for a lot of people. It's an investment, just like a house you buy that's easily 400-450K in California. You don't have to pay it all at once or even quickly. Dentistry is still one of the best jobs to have regardless of student loan debt.

I graduated in 2018 and currently making close to $400K a year, as an associate in California. It just depends on how hard you want to work. The debt I have I will pay off in time, there honestly is no rush. All of the money you make doesn't have to pay the loan off you should be using it to invest in other opportunities, real estate, 401k, IRA, etc.

Don't let other people on this forum or dental town convince you that dentistry is not a great career that it still is.

I'm not sure why people don't believe you. Now if you said you were making 400k in LA, then I'd probably call BS. California isn't just LA/SF/SD. There's the central valley, bakersfield and all the cities along the 99, godforsaken apple valley/indio, and all those one horse towns in CA.

I hope you consider owning your own practice someday. You can make way more than 400k/year by owning your own office.

 

[Cold Front]

I'm not sure why people don't believe you.

It’s all about the context.

Ofcourse it’s possible to make $400k, even with only 1 year experience, but we all know that you would be working in a unique area/location, with a unique contract that offsets for the lack of speed and experience, and many other factors that would reward that level of income. When he was asked to share some general details that helped him get such position to support his assertion - he came off very snobbish. Which was expected for someone with 1 year experience.

We were born at a night, but we weren’t born last night.

 

[TanMan]

It’s all about the context.

Ofcourse it’s possible to make $400k, even with only 1 year experience, but we all know that you would be working in a unique area/location, with a unique contract that offsets for the lack of speed and experience, and many other factors that would reward that level of income. When he was asked to share some general details that helped him get such position to support his assertion - he came off very snobbish. Which was expected for someone with 1 year experience.

We were born at a night, but we weren’t born last night.

True, the claims are not outlandish, but it's the way he presented them. My only advice for him would be to aim for more. That money is good for a first year associate, but there's much more potential out there.

 

[deleted659902]

5 days a week, location is not in SF and LA

Is this strictly a FFS practice

 

[allantois]

USC should hire this 400k 1 year out guy to be a spokesperson for them

 

[2TH MVR]

Your last statement is the worst advice I’ve seen in my time on sdn

Possibly. But good thing sdn has you with your vast experience and knowledge about private practice to set things right. Thank you so much for your thoughtful and insightful posts.

 

[ProspectiveDentist37]

Thank you all for your words and perspectives. I know that many of you have provided different perspectives but I am still on the fence about applying. Is there anything else I should hear about regarding the future of dentistry before I submit my application? I really can't help but think of the lavish, comfortable lives of dentists depicted in media and feel like this is the quickest/most secure avenue to having a life like that.

 

[TanMan]

Thank you all for your words and perspectives. I know that many of you have provided different perspectives but I am still on the fence about applying. Is there anything else I should hear about regarding the future of dentistry before I submit my application? I really can't help but think of the lavish, comfortable lives of dentists depicted in media and feel like this is the quickest/most secure avenue to having a life like that.

Are you willing to move anywhere and do anything to make money? If the answer is yes, go submit your application. Future of dentistry is not that bad. Only if you stay an associate and stuck in certain saturated areas will you be poor.

 

[ProspectiveDentist37]

I would eventually like to work near Dallas or Houston in TX, do you feel like those markets will be/are already saturated? I grew up in a suburb outside Philly my whole life, so I don't know what rural life is like, but for anybody who does live in rural country, how is it out there? Is it a huge lifestyle change? If I want to raise a family but still remain living in rural areas, will my kids have a lesser education?

 

[ProspectiveDentist37]

Also, how much is an average, suburban/metro associate expected to produce on the daily nowadays? I realize this is a very broad question as well, but I feel like it's important that it is addressed

 

[TanMan]

I would eventually like to work near Dallas or Houston in TX, do you feel like those markets will be/are already saturated? I grew up in a suburb outside Philly my whole life, so I don't know what rural life is like, but for anybody who does live in rural country, how is it out there? Is it a huge lifestyle change? If I want to raise a family but still remain living in rural areas, will my kids have a lesser education?

Dallas/Houston are pretty saturated, but the suburbs are not too bad. I think there's a misconception of rural... People imagine a subdivision of barns with a population of 5000 people and 10000 cows when you say the word rural. Suburbs doesn't have to mean near a large city either. I think the safer bet are smaller cities of 100-500k. Far enough from the big city where people want to congregate, but big enough to have an airport to travel anywhere/everywhere.

Another thing about rural/smaller cities, with respect to your kid(s) education is that it's easier to be the best of the worst than a more competitive city. Smaller cities do have private schools if you prefer to go that route. Lifestyle is different for better and worse. Worse in that you don't have as much to do (and spend on) but better because less traffic, congestion, and other things that come with city life. I came from the city life and it's only fun when you have lots of money. Otherwise, being broke in the city sucks.

Also, how much is an average, suburban/metro associate expected to produce on the daily nowadays? I realize this is a very broad question as well, but I feel like it's important that it is addressed

I think you're asking the wrong question. I think the right question is whether the practice you want to associate in can throw as many patients at you as possible to make money. In the worst case scenario of 25% compensation, you should be able to produce 1.2 in the very least to make some sort of decent adequate compensation. Every practice is different in what they expect. If I were to hire an associate, I want at least 6k/day in associate production.

 

[LFA20]

So it seems like the consensus is not to work in major cities. What if you have zero debt and want to work in nyc lol? Can you still live decently and make 180-200k?

 

[Cold Front]

So it seems like the consensus is not to work in major cities. What if you have zero debt and want to work in nyc lol? Can you still live decently and make 180-200k?

With no debt, you can live anywhere - but YMMV. I would focus on saving more as early as you can.

 

[2TH MVR]

So it seems like the consensus is not to work in major cities. What if you have zero debt and want to work in nyc lol? Can you still live decently and make 180-200k?

People always ask how much can you make in salary. Well ... that depends on the individual. If you work hard, network, are good at what you do .... the sky is the limit anywhere. I work Corp in a VERY saturated, urban market (Phoenix). I started in one office. Then I was asked to take a 2nd office. Then a 3rd office. Just last week they asked me to take on a 4th office. I literally can work as many days as I want and make as much money as I did in private practice.

You could be a terrible dentist with no business skills, lazy, etc. and not do well in the rural areas. What has been said is that it would be easier to be successful in a rural setting.

With no debt ... you are in an envious position. Not knowing your family situation, but quality of life (i.e where you live) is important. I went to school in the midwest. Wonderful people. But there is NO WAY I would want to live and work in the midwest. Just not my style. I enjoy the climate and desert of North Scottsdale. We have all 4 pro teams. In the winter ... I can play a round of golf in the morn and head to Flagstaff to go skiing. Same day. Close to Cali, Vegas, Mexico.

So .... if you want to live in NYU and you have good marketable skills and personality ..... go for it. It's your life to do as you will.

 

[mmc12]

So it seems like the consensus is not to work in major cities. What if you have zero debt and want to work in nyc lol? Can you still live decently and make 180-200k?

I know a number of friends who worked in NYC after their GPR because they are from there. They were able to make 200K+. They were able to speak other languages and work very fast in Medicaid offices.

 

[Anondds87]

So it seems like the consensus is not to work in major cities. What if you have zero debt and want to work in nyc lol? Can you still live decently and make 180-200k?

i have no idea what it is like working in nyc, but my general feeling is if you can graduate dental school without any debt then yes its worth doing.

the big issue is people dont realise how crippling debt with interest is, and if you are paying 10-20 years of high payments due to debt you might aswell have just gone into a lower paying less stressful job with no debt because you will actually be better off financially

 

[Blueshirts]

So it seems like the consensus is not to work in major cities. What if you have zero debt and want to work in nyc lol? Can you still live decently and make 180-200k?

You’ll be hovering somewhere around average depending on total household income and whether or not you are in the city or burbs. Housing on the other hand is becoming infinitely more expensive, especially if you want to be near good schools, I have a friend who is looking to be in the Bronx near a train line and for moderately sized homes (1500 sq ft) he is looking at paying 800k on the low end. Also, as you probably know already, taxes are backbreaking in New York lol.

 

[321931]

You’ll be hovering somewhere around average depending on total household income and whether or not you are in the city or burbs. Housing on the other hand is becoming infinitely more expensive, especially if you want to be near good schools, I have a friend who is looking to be in the Bronx near a train line and for moderately sized homes (1500 sq ft) he is looking at paying 800k on the low end. Also, as you probably know already, taxes are backbreaking in New York lol.

You sorta get over this fascination with living in the "City" when you grow up. When I was in my 20's, I wanted to live in San Francisco, LA, Seattle- and I did live in all three cities. I paid an exorbitant amount of rent and lived the "city" life. Towards the later 20's, most of my friends started moving into suburbs- and moving states entirely. I was in California at the time, and moving out of the city in the Bay Area wasn't that much better. Why? Because of cost of living. When you have techies who are in their 20's with no debt and an explosive stock market where their compensation is tied to Facebook stock, with zero debt, they just price you out of the market even though you are a dentist making 150-200k a year. That's nothing compared to a decent tech worker in the Bay.

Anyways, I digress.

Cost of living is a factor, moving to somewhere to settle down is a factor, you realize as you get older the city's charms, becomes it's negatives. The suburbia life is awesome. 5 minutes to get to the gym, to the costco, to the practice, to my home. No noise, No garbage, Less Crime. It's where I want to raise my kids. Your money goes further and you can retire early/travel more/spend on cool things. 1500 sq ft 800k apartment? Are you crazy? You can get a mansion in suburb in whatever other state. That's insane. If you add the 800k apartment to the student loan debt of 300k on top of a 500-1 mil practice- you are looking at 1.5-2mil of debt. That's so over levereged-its scary. One economic downturn and you are literally financially ruined.

But I get it, some people just want to be in the city. More power to them. From life experience- people change when they want to settle down in their later 20's early 30's.

 

[deleted547631]

Hello SDN,

I have recently posted this on Reddit and wanted to get opinions from people in this forum to get a variety of perspectives/views.

I know that other people may have already asked this question in years past, but I would like to get some updated thoughts from current dentists/new graduates as to whether the profession is still worth pursuing "for the money." I know that it is common for many people to advise not to pursue any career for solely "the money", but realistically, we all need to find something to financially support ourselves, whether we like our jobs or not, and figured that this is a stable secure profession going into the future.
After doing a decent amount of shadowing (both ortho and many general dentists) I've found the experience to be okay, but I'm not particularly "passionate" or crazy about teeth in general. I just wanted to pursue dental school over med school because I've always loved science that both could involve, but felt that the work-life balance of a dentist beat the lifestyle/stress of an MD. I also do enjoy the aspect of helping people in the community/healthcare setting.

I've recently graduated with a BSc in Bioinformatics and also enjoy the more tech side of things as well. I just feel that dentistry may be more secure than tech going into the future due to its higher barrier of entry, and figured I should give it a shot before I get too old. But I could also be completely wrong about this as tech jobs are booming in general and I could gain some more experience programming and working in related tech fields.

My GPA, DAT score, and resume are very competitive, so I think I will be a good candidate for when I apply. I just want to know whether this would be a good investment of my time, or if I should build on what I already have attained with my bioinformatics knowledge.

I have two major concerns before moving forward and actually applying for dental school.

1. The average debt: $300k as the average school debt does scare me, but I read/hear about many different opinions regarding whether this debt is worth the investment. Majority of people mention that it really is only worth it if I intend on owning my own practice eventually, but I find that to be a little difficult, given that I've never had super strong business acumen (however I figure this can be learned), and have seen the trend of corporatization in dentistry and the increasingly high debts making it harder to even own nowadays. Realistically, I see myself being an associate moreso than a business owner for the rest of my career, as I prefer not to deal with the headaches that come with owning. I also find society's view on how "rich" a dentist is to be quite skewed, as I think this is heavily based on older dentists who were able to open and build their offices with against lesser competition and with higher insurance reimbursements in the past. I feel that this thinking is also skewing my expectation of how lucrative the profession is.
2. The trend towards "medicare for all," which will obviously have a negative impact on salary. My question is, based on your experience as dentists who have been able to observe these trends for a while, how realistic will the single payer system be as a threat towards this profession?

Any thoughts/advice/opinions on this are welcome.

Thank you!

Answering your questions directly:
1. It's good to get feedback from experienced and newer dentists. I don't think they'll really be forthcoming to a pre-dental student, though.

2. Single payer will not affect dentistry so long as dental care isn't included in the definition of what should be covered. However, the general public may come to expect and demand that oral health be covered just as their general healthcare needs are if Medicare for All became a reality. Organized dentistry has successfully lobbied for decades to keep dental care separate.

The biggest question you should ask is this: do I actually like the idea of practicing dentistry? I have a feeling the answer is no.

 

[ToothJockey]

From life experience- people change when they want to settle down in their later 20's early 30's.

I think maybe sometimes dentist/physicians feel like they missed out on their 20's due to schooling, so they might delay settling down till later so they can live out their 20's in their 30's, if that makes any sense. Everyone is different, but say if I hypothetically became a Neurosurgeon and did the whole 7 year residency thing, then effectively I spent my entire 20's and half of my 30's in school working my butt off, after finally finishing residency would I want to settle down, or maybe live life a little? You only have 1 life, and you are only "young" once, so you gotta make it count.

I notice that a lot of people get married before or during dental school, which to me is crazy early. I personally can't even imagine myself being married till I'm atleast 40. Everyone has different priorities. I can definitely see why single people would want to live in or near a big city. Being single in the burbs can get lonely.