Current Dentists: Is this career still worth pursuing for the money?

[ProspectiveDentist37]

Hello SDN,

I have recently posted this on Reddit and wanted to get opinions from people in this forum to get a variety of perspectives/views.

I know that other people may have already asked this question in years past, but I would like to get some updated thoughts from current dentists/new graduates as to whether the profession is still worth pursuing "for the money." I know that it is common for many people to advise not to pursue any career for solely "the money", but realistically, we all need to find something to financially support ourselves, whether we like our jobs or not, and figured that this is a stable secure profession going into the future.
After doing a decent amount of shadowing (both ortho and many general dentists) I've found the experience to be okay, but I'm not particularly "passionate" or crazy about teeth in general. I just wanted to pursue dental school over med school because I've always loved science that both could involve, but felt that the work-life balance of a dentist beat the lifestyle/stress of an MD. I also do enjoy the aspect of helping people in the community/healthcare setting.

I've recently graduated with a BSc in Bioinformatics and also enjoy the more tech side of things as well. I just feel that dentistry may be more secure than tech going into the future due to its higher barrier of entry, and figured I should give it a shot before I get too old. But I could also be completely wrong about this as tech jobs are booming in general and I could gain some more experience programming and working in related tech fields.

My GPA, DAT score, and resume are very competitive, so I think I will be a good candidate for when I apply. I just want to know whether this would be a good investment of my time, or if I should build on what I already have attained with my bioinformatics knowledge.

I have two major concerns before moving forward and actually applying for dental school.

1. The average debt: $300k as the average school debt does scare me, but I read/hear about many different opinions regarding whether this debt is worth the investment. Majority of people mention that it really is only worth it if I intend on owning my own practice eventually, but I find that to be a little difficult, given that I've never had super strong business acumen (however I figure this can be learned), and have seen the trend of corporatization in dentistry and the increasingly high debts making it harder to even own nowadays. Realistically, I see myself being an associate moreso than a business owner for the rest of my career, as I prefer not to deal with the headaches that come with owning. I also find society's view on how "rich" a dentist is to be quite skewed, as I think this is heavily based on older dentists who were able to open and build their offices with against lesser competition and with higher insurance reimbursements in the past. I feel that this thinking is also skewing my expectation of how lucrative the profession is.
2. The trend towards "medicare for all," which will obviously have a negative impact on salary. My question is, based on your experience as dentists who have been able to observe these trends for a while, how realistic will the single payer system be as a threat towards this profession?

Any thoughts/advice/opinions on this are welcome.

Thank you!

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[Cold Front]

There is a very active topic on DentalTown under the title “Don’t Go To Dental School!”. Look it up.

The consensus is that dentists (and I mean most members on DentalTown) would advise against anyone from going to do dental school today under the current student debt climate. The cost will only get worse and dentistry is no longer a lucrative profession as it once was, due to expensive programs, dental insurances and corporations that wait for new graduates to exploit them even further into lower insurance reimbursement rates and the growing number of mill machines popping up everywhere (DSO’s). The case was also made that specializing in dentistry also falls into these same traps.

There are many 6 figure jobs out there these days that do not require $500-800k in student loans, and today’s world has more options to make money than go to school for 8-10 years, relative to potential income to debt ratios.

 

[321931]

I still dentistry is promising.

However in 2014 my base salary was 50$ an hour.

Today my hygienists make 50-53 an hour with a 2 year degree with no debt. And my assistant? 30$ an hour no degree.

My 4 1/2 day week hygienist technically makes 100k when you put the benefit package together.

What makes this more frustrating is that reimbursements are getting cut and so every few years your prophet fees decrease... but your hygienists still want more money. Even though they are producing less. Well why not hire a new hygienist? Well when everyone is expecting 50+ an hour then good luck with that. And also they have a following of patients that might leave if they leave.

Lol. Dentistry ain’t that bad, but I would strongly suggest looking at other fields before settling on dentistry.

 

[Cold Front]

My hygienist asks me for a raise every year, she is now at $45 an hour + 401k + 3 weeks vacation... but it’s profitable, but the margins were much higher before because the insurances paid more before and hygienists made less before.

 

[Cold Front]

sure margins are important but im sure you are taking home more too in absolute dollar

I’m just saying there is a diminishing profits when payroll goes up for an owner of a practice. It will get worse in the long run for future dentists:

1. More student loan debt payments.
2. Less reimbursements from dental insurances.
3. Staff wants to get paid more every year.
4. Cost of supplies and lab goes up every year.
5. Rent/lease cost goes up every few years.
6. Personal Living expenses goes up every year due to general inflation.
7. Personal healthcare insurance goes up every year.
8. Less savings every year.
9. New dental schools lead to more saturation and leads to less new patients.
10. Corporations perfected how to market and get new patients better than private practices.

 

[FutureDent020]

I know an orthodontist who just got out of residency. She was just looking for a part time gig due to family priorities. She received an offer for a baseline of $1,400/day, 3 days a week regardless of production. Incentives were included on top of that such as $100 for each new case. I don’t know how much debt she has. But making over $4,000 a week while only working 3 days with no other responsibilities except seeing patients seems pretty lucrative. This is also in a lower cost of living area btw.

Point being, sure student debt is a real thing, and every student should evaluate their potential financial future, but the money is there in dentistry. Especially in the specialties. Yea, it’s not like it was 30 years ago, but it’s there. You see a lot of chicken littles running around SDN and other forums. It’s a good career.

 

[FutureDent020]

are you sure that's 3 days a week? not month? hard to believe a corp office would offer a part time position with that many days in a month especially at $1k+/day

Yep. This is exactly what I was told. At first it was $1,000/ day, but they negotiated up. Trust me, I was surprised too. But that’s my point. The opportunities are there. And again, this is an orthodontist, not GP. Expected to see around 30-40 patients a day.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

HPSP + GI Bill = WINNING!!!

Big Hoss

 

[Cold Front]

Yep. This is exactly what I was told. At first it was $1,000/ day, but they negotiated up. Trust me, I was surprised too. But that’s my point. The opportunities are there. And again, this is an orthodontist, not GP. Expected to see around 30-40 patients a day.

$1,400 a day for orthodontists puts you in the top 5%. This should not imply as the norm and could mislead pre-dents to think that being an orthodontist means $1,400 a day income. Too many new grads found out the hard way.

Also, it’s a corporate job, and even though you don’t know all the details in the $1,400 daily rate, the corporation has a bottom line number to care for. If they are paying a doctor a high number, then that fitted with their numbers well. It could be that another corporation or employer would never pay that high. What I’m more curious about is - how much student loans debt does the orthodontist have?

 

[FutureDent020]

$1,400 a day for orthodontists puts you in the top 5%. This should not imply as the norm and could mislead pre-dents to think that being an orthodontist means $1,400 a day income. Too many new grads found out the hard way.

Also, it’s a corporate job, and even though you don’t know all the details in the $1,400 daily rate, the corporation has a bottom line number to care for. If they are paying a doctor a high number, then that fitted with their numbers well. It could be that another corporation or employer would never pay that high. What I’m more curious about is - how much student loans debt does the orthodontist have?

No clue about their debt. Went to a cheaper state school, but ortho program was a big city school with most likely a pricey tuition.

And you are right, this is top % offer. But isn’t a career with a baseline of $120K/ year starting out a top % too. And everyone’s point is well if you are paying back $3K+ a month for decades then what is the 6 figure salary really worth? Does it translate to a job paying ~ $70K which isn’t that uncommon... I get the argument.

But no career out there is a guarantee. Everyone says you can make more money doing this or that. But I think some people forget that coming out of college is a scary time and no career or good salary is certain. If you get into dental school and graduate you made it.

Everyone here reminds people of the risks. And honestly, the overall tone on the forum is pretty morose. Seems to be due to a limited sample size. I Would honestly love for people to just disclose their financial situations to put the facts out there instead of constant hypotheticals.

 

[321931]

I would advise then just going on dentaltown and checking out their forums. Here we have like literally 5-10 same dentists posting about if it’s good or if it’s bad.

Go to dentaltown and look up the post cold front was talking about. It literally has thousands of seasoned dentists posting... and the overall tone is: no it’s not worth it. If you think the tone here is pretty morose- then dentaltown tone is the apocalypse of dentistry has come and there is no hope left. It makes sdn look like Disney world.

Going deep into debt for a job that has its profit margins constantly cut due to competition, wages, inflation and insurance reimbursement cuts... is a tough pill to swallow. My absolute dollar will never increase. The money I make today - I will need to work 10-20% harder in 10 years due to margins getting smaller.

Regarding the ortho comment: go look up Mike Meru. 1 mil ortho in debt.

I still think dentistry is a good job as long as you go into ownership and you manage your debt and expectations well. Everyone needs a dentist- even in bad economy. AI/machines not replace you. There’s room for Corp/private practice. There’s options to work 3-5 days a week. It’s a solid job.

But you won’t get rich in dentistry, and no you won’t be poor unless you have tons of debt. You will be comfortable- and yes there seems to be easier 4 year bachelor degree jobs- see comp sci- and trade gigs that pay well -see electrician plumbing dental hygiene Etc etc.

 

[Saddleshoes]

If $$$ is your prime motivator DO NOT go into dentistry!
There are lots of better ways to make big bucks for a bright young person, these days, with less education and up front costs.

 

[FutureDent020]

I would advise then just going on dentaltown and checking out their forums. Here we have like literally 5-10 same dentists posting about if it’s good or if it’s bad.

This, 100%. And for full disclosure (not that it’s needed) I am one that advocates for it. But maybe I just really enjoy what I do.

I also believe forums have bias opinions. People come to vent. Me, I show up out of boredom.

 

[deleted659902]

If $$$ is your prime motivator DO NOT go into dentistry!
There are lots of better ways to make big bucks for a bright young person, these days, with less education and up front costs.

mind if i ask like what?

 

[Cold Front]

I am one that advocates for it.

Care to elaborate?

I’m an advocate for clinical dentistry and have been when I joined these forums. But I think I would do the profession injustice if I encourage students to go to dental school today with a half million dollars price tag. Most of my dentist friends are not financially savvy, and if I asked them anything financial - say... about the stock market, real estate, retirement, and the business of dentistry, they would look at me like a deer in the headlights. There were few dentist friends with financial knowledge, but even they are not that complex with finances. I think the tables have turned for dentistry, and if I were to advise a pre-dent today, it would be a strong no for dental school with over $350k in loans, and that would just leave about 1 in 5 schools to apply to. The other exception is full military scholarship or if you have parents who will cut checks for the student loans. Otherwise, the ROI and stress level is not worth it in my opinion.

 

[P7898]

Care to elaborate?

I’m an advocate for clinical dentistry and have been when I joined these forums. But I think I would do the profession injustice if I encourage students to go to dental school today with a half million dollars price tag. Most of my dentist friends are not financially savvy, and if I asked them anything financial - say... about the stock market, real estate, retirement, and the business of dentistry, they would look at me like a deer in the headlights. There were few dentist friends with financial knowledge, but even they are not that complex with finances. I think the tables have turned for dentistry, and if I were to advise a pre-dent today, it would be a strong no for dental school with over $350k in loans, and that would just leave about 1 in 5 schools to apply to. The other exception is full military scholarship or if you have parents who will cut checks for the student loans. Otherwise, the ROI and stress level is not worth it in my opinion.

If you don't mind me asking Cold Front, what would be the amount of student loans to make it worth it? The max in your opinion?

 

[Cold Front]

If you don't mind me asking Cold Front, what would be the amount of student loans to make it worth it? The max in your opinion?

I think the question is part of a bigger question that encompasses the different stages of debt most dentists face in their lifetime;

1. Undergrad debt
2. Dental school debt
3. Speciality/Residency
4. Practice ownership
5. Home ownership

These are the big 4/5 stages of debt and ALL of them have went up in cost significantly the past 10-15 years relative to dentist income (The ADA reported the average dentist owner income has ranged between $170-200k for the past 15 years).

For me, the max is $350k DDS/DMD only debt before the compounded interest, or $450k with the compounded interest.

 

[2TH MVR]

Dentistry has really changed in the last 26 years I have been in practice. All of the changes have not been to the dentist's advantage. The biggest detriment to dentistry IMHO is Corporate.
26 yrs ago ... there was very little Corp dentistry. A new dentist came to a city regardless if it was big, little or small. Performed some demographics. Found an area with few dentists. Started a scratch practice. You could be successful with very little business acumen. Seriously.
Now. It's much more difficult to start a scratch practice. So much competition especially in the saturated areas. Corp dentistry has the negative trickle down effect. Corp starts or buys existing practices which further saturates the area. They bring in their own specialists. Now existing dentists feel like they have to act like mini Corps by bringing in their own specialists. I've experienced it 1st hand. At one time dentists had a monopoly on dental patients. Not anymore. Go into a saturated area. There are literally dental offices (Corp and private) on every corner. That's reality.

Dentistry is a good profession if ..........IF ....... you graduate with reasonable debt. That's been the message here on SDN since I joined. Being a dentist is no longer a guaranteed golden egg. The attitude that you want to be a dentist at all costs is financially irresponsible.

Now .... is Corp all that bad? No. I don't see it being any different than the existing medical model less the business side. But did you go into dentistry to help people with their dental care or to be an entrepreneur? Not judging at all. Just asking. Last time I checked ... dentistry is a health profession. We all know what happens when you mix health professions and business.

Mike Meru .... the orthodontist with over a million dollars in DS loans? He's an idiot. He had a choice to stop with his DDS degree, but he chose to put his family in further financial stress by going into ortho residency. And then hoping the govt bails him out.

Dentistry is still good .... for now, but it is rapidly changing towards a medical model. The rural areas are most insulated from this transformation. Graduate with low DS debt and you will be fine. Plenty of jobs available.

 

[Anondds87]

What is the post on dental town? Im trying to find it but can't...

I think this is a really good question to ask. I'm sick of so many people saying "you shouldn't care about how much you earn if you love what you do"

I think that is such terrible advice. because honestly, you have no idea whether youll love the job until you've done a few years of it. by then its too late to change. So you might as well choose a career that will pay well and give a good lifestyle and theres nothing wrong with admitting it. it is a job at the end of the day. its not a passion. you do it to make money and thats literally the only reason. so many ppl say "oh dentistry is amazing blah blah" seriously stop it, its a job, you wouldn't do it for free. its a job. would i do dentistry if it paid say the same as a nurse? no way. dentistry is hard. you are totally responsible for everything. is it easy money? no. i only do it cause it pays pretty well. not amazing. but pretty good.

with the amount of debt these days it is NOT worth it. everywhere is saturated (unless you are prepared to move rural then i would probably say it is worth it, but you have to move to areas where there aren't many dentists ie places ppl don't want to live). its tough to get a job, its stressful the first few years out getting comfortable with procedures.

we are being let down by the universities. they are screwing us. the debt load is ridiculous. its unfair. do i think its worth it? no, because by the time you factor in your debt its an average paying job, so why not go into something that has a better future? do i think its all doom and gloom? yes and no, it is still an ok gig, i just don't see the point in doing it with the current debt because i really only feel the job is worth the stress and education if it pays well. if you can do it really cheaply yes but otherwise no. but if you are in a situation where its going to be expensive then just go into another career.

but i feel the pressure you guys do. when you get accepted into dental school everyone around you will say congrats youve made it, you're gonna kill it etc, and its hard to ignore that cause honestly none of these people know what they're talking about. the general person still assumes dentists are all rich. but they aren't. listen to ppl on these forums. they are living it. it is only worth it if you do it really cheaply.

i think you have to be smart to get into dental school. but you have to be really smart to get accepted and then turn it down. These are the people who do the research and don't go into it blindly. too many people accept dental school offers without asking questions first.

 

[Anondds87]

also you need to be realistic about the cost of dental school,

theres a really good article

Published Cost Estimates of Dental School Are Totally Wrong

Dental schools are providing faulty cost estimates of dental school to prospective students all over the country. It's time someone called them on it.

www.studentloanplanner.com

the short version: take tufts dental school. website shows its total cost of attendance over 4 years its 425000.

this is a pretty fair estimate as it includes cost of living (i don't know if most schools do this?) but it is still much lower than what it actually costs.

2 reasons for this: tuition goes up every year (roughly 4% is a fair estimate these days) so by the time you get to 4th year your 4th year tuition has increased 16%.
and the other reason is you start paying interest as soon as you get the loan, so when you graduate your first year debt has been increasing for 3 years at 7%.

so that 425000 number is actually 550000 by the time you graduate. thats just the reality that you won't really apprecaite until you finish.

 

[yappy]

I've graduated dental school, worked for some time, and would not advise anyone go into dentistry for money. You must have some excitement/enjoyment in this career path to make it worth it. The debt, difficulty, and physical nature of this job are stressful. Unfortunately it would all be much more manageable and "worth it" at current income levels if the debt were not so high. IMO student debt is literally ruining this career path for people. I advice only going into dentistry if you truly want to be a dentist and have considered all your options. After that own it, be smart, and as successful as you can possibly be. This career takes commitment and constant attention. Because of that the easy-money-crowd that does not really like the nature of the job are not satisfied. Hence the bitter dentists you will meet.

Personally I hate dental town. It's a toxic community riddled with ads for the worst CE. You will find no sage advice or wisdom on dental town.

 

[FutureDent020]

I've graduated dental school, worked for some time, and would not advise anyone go into dentistry for money. You must have some excitement/enjoyment in this career path to make it worth it. The debt, difficulty, and physical nature of this job are stressful. Unfortunately it would all be much more manageable and "worth it" at current income levels if the debt were not so high. IMO student debt is literally ruining this career path for people. I advice only going into dentistry if you truly want to be a dentist and have considered all your options. After that own it, be smart, and as successful as you can possibly be.

Personally I hate dental town. Most in that community are toxic and it's riddled with ads for the worst CE. You will find no sage advice or wisdom on dental town.

Care to elaborate?

I basically just agree with everything Yappy said.

I’m also not sure if I interpreted the OP’s question correctly. If they are just asking if they should pursue dentistry solely for the money, then I would say absolutely not.

 

[Cold Front]

I basically just agree with everything Yappy said.

I’m also not sure if I interpreted the OP’s question correctly. If they are just asking if they should pursue dentistry solely for the money, then I would say absolutely not.

That’s exactly the dilemma. When dentists say “don’t do it for the money” to pre-dents, then it leaves the door open to pursue dentistry at any program they can get into (most of which are very expensive). This is what happens when dentists write letters of recommendations for perspective students to admission committees; “this kid loves dentistry and would make a great dentist, please let him/her in”. Even the smartest of students apply to expensive schools and many end up going to one. It’s the old “pursue what you love”, but at what cost?

Remember, the number 1 goal for any future pre-dent is “cost, cost, cost” and not “passion” - because the dental education system has become an opportunistic profiteering scheme.

 

[2TH MVR]

Personally I hate dental town. It's a toxic community riddled with ads for the worst CE. You will find no sage advice or wisdom on dental town.

I totally agree.

 

[FutureDent020]

That’s exactly the dilemma. When dentists say “don’t do it for the money” to pre-dents, then it leaves the door open to pursue dentistry at any program they can get into (most of which are very expensive). This is what happens when dentists write letters of recommendations for perspective students to admission committees; “this kid loves dentistry and would make a great dentist, please let him/her in”. Even the smartest of students apply to expensive schools and many end up going to one. It’s the old “pursue what you love”, but at what cost?

Remember, the number 1 goal for any future pre-dent is “cost, cost, cost” and not “passion” - because the dental education system has become an opportunistic profiteering scheme.

Right, I don’t disagree. Be smart about it. Don’t get yourself into $300K+ in debt to pursue what you think is “your passion”. That’s repeated endlessly on these forums. And it’s for the best. My contribution in these “worth it now a days” discussions, whether people like it or not, is sharing successes since that is rarely done. But I’m glad you guys are presenting all those facts. Pre-Dents need to hear them. But they also need to hear that dentistry can be a great career if approached wisely.

 

[ToothJockey]

Everyone always compares dentistry to other jobs people might take which don't require the debt and education of dentistry, like plumbing, finance, electrician, accountant, nurse, hygenist, CRNA etc.

But I think if you are going to compare career prospects in dentistry to any other career, you should probably compare dentistry to medicine. I mean most dental students are pretty much on par with medical students these days GPA wise, we take the same classes, and we have a similar mindset on what career we want. We shouldn't compare dentists to someone in finance, because most dental students probably don't want to crunch numbers for the rest of their life. We like biology, we like the human body, we like healthcare. We don't want to fix someones plumbing, we want to fix someones teeth/body.

We also shouldn't compare dentistry to hygenist or nurse etc. because we are going into dentistry to be the authority figure over a patients treatment plan, and to execute it. We want to be leaders, whereas most people who go into nursing or hygeine want to be followers.

If you are going to compare dentistry to any career to measure whether it is worth it, compare it to medicine. Is going to dental school a better idea than going to medical school? Are medical incomes keeping up with inflation, are they rising and at what rate? What is the future of medicine compared to dentistry? Medical school is not as expensive as dental school, and IM/Family physicians probably make a little more than general dentists on average. Medical specialists make a little more than dental specialists on average, if you compare MGMA to ADA statistics. Most medical residencies pay you 50-60k a year, whereas a lot of dental residencies have a tuition. Overall if you want money in a healthcare career medicine is not a bad choice, but hey the grass is always greener on the other side. If you go to medical forums they often tell you to go be a dentist if you are in it for the money.

Try looking at things objectively.

 

[charlestweed]

$1,400 a day for orthodontists puts you in the top 5%. This should not imply as the norm and could mislead pre-dents to think that being an orthodontist means $1,400 a day income. Too many new grads found out the hard way.

Also, it’s a corporate job, and even though you don’t know all the details in the $1,400 daily rate, the corporation has a bottom line number to care for. If they are paying a doctor a high number, then that fitted with their numbers well. It could be that another corporation or employer would never pay that high. What I’m more curious about is - how much student loans debt does the orthodontist have?

If this orthodontist’s total student loan amount is more than $500k and if she sticks to the 10-yr loan repayment schedule, then making $1400/day, working only 3 days/wk is actually not that much. But at least she has 2-4 free days in a week to make more money if she wants to…such as setting up her own office, travel to work at more offices etc. That’s the beauty of being a specialist.

Many here have kept saying there are better job options out there that make similar $$$ but fail to list those jobs. I haven’t yet seen alternative jobs that allow one to earn similar income, similar work hours per month, and have less chance of getting laid off like dentistry and medicine. A lot of engineering jobs are outsourced to developing countries. If I know such comparable job exists, I would definitely advise my kids, nephews, and nieces not to pursue dentistry and medicine. Since I haven’t found one yet, I continue to tell them do well in school so they have good chance of getting accepted to med/dental schools.

 

[charlestweed]

Dentistry has really changed in the last 26 years I have been in practice. All of the changes have not been to the dentist's advantage. The biggest detriment to dentistry IMHO is Corporate.
26 yrs ago ... there was very little Corp dentistry. A new dentist came to a city regardless if it was big, little or small. Performed some demographics. Found an area with few dentists. Started a scratch practice. You could be successful with very little business acumen. Seriously.
Now. It's much more difficult to start a scratch practice. So much competition especially in the saturated areas. Corp dentistry has the negative trickle down effect. Corp starts or buys existing practices which further saturates the area. They bring in their own specialists. Now existing dentists feel like they have to act like mini Corps by bringing in their own specialists. I've experienced it 1st hand. At one time dentists had a monopoly on dental patients. Not anymore. Go into a saturated area. There are literally dental offices (Corp and private) on every corner. That's reality.

Dentistry is a good profession if ..........IF ....... you graduate with reasonable debt. That's been the message here on SDN since I joined. Being a dentist is no longer a guaranteed golden egg. The attitude that you want to be a dentist at all costs is financially irresponsible.

Now .... is Corp all that bad? No. I don't see it being any different than the existing medical model less the business side. But did you go into dentistry to help people with their dental care or to be an entrepreneur? Not judging at all. Just asking. Last time I checked ... dentistry is a health profession. We all know what happens when you mix health professions and business.

Mike Meru .... the orthodontist with over a million dollars in DS loans? He's an idiot. He had a choice to stop with his DDS degree, but he chose to put his family in further financial stress by going into ortho residency. And then hoping the govt bails him out.

Dentistry is still good .... for now, but it is rapidly changing towards a medical model. The rural areas are most insulated from this transformation. Graduate with low DS debt and you will be fine. Plenty of jobs available.

Corps are like a double edged sword. Corps can hurt many private practice owners. Corps also help many clueless new grad dentists (like myself), who want to come in to learn as much as possible while making good money. I couldn’t have afforded a BMW right after graduation and a $382k house 3 months later, if I didn’t have good paying jobs at 2 corps. Without the corp jobs, I would have to borrow $200k+ in business loan to set up my first office, instead of just $75k. Without corp jobs, I woudn’t be able to acquire the clinical skills that allow me to handle 80+ patients a day…I wouldn’t know how to keep the overhead as low as possible.

My gp friend said the same about the corp. He has learned so much from working there. Working at the corp has taught him how to tx plan HMO cases and how to convince patients to upgrade the tx option so he can get paid more. When he opened his own office, he also signed up some HMO plans. Many of these patients file grievances to their insurance companies (because they thought their plans pay for everything) against him but he told me that as long as you submit all the right documents to prove you have done nothing wrong, the insurance companies will side with you.

 

[Cold Front]

If this orthodontist’s total student loan amount is more than $500k and if she sticks to the 10-yr loan repayment schedule, then making $1400/day, working only 3 days/wk is actually not that much.

Well, the last 2 young orthodontists I met... one graduated 6 years ago had about $600k in student loans... the other graduated last years and had $720k in debt. Yes, some have less debt, but even the cheapest programs will eventually charge more as the tuition/debt curve continues to rise. The job market is supply and demand and the daily rates is based on the demand by the office/employer is willing to meet with an associate orthodontist, regardless of the student loans debt - there is no correlation at all.

Speaking of which... I went out for a Sunday drive today and noticed my google maps is now showing “SmilesDirectClub” locations near me. They were all in beauty salons (Salon Lofts)... about a dozen of them in my city. This is just insane how dental services are being dragged from professionals in debt to franchise stores who have SmilesDirectClub services.

 

[allantois]

There’s something to be said about the criminal costs of dental education. Most other healthcare programs do everything to try to keep costs down. Medical, nursing, etc schools have a ton of scholarships for students, are always fundraising money, have voluntarily faculty, etc. People running dental education are criminals in disguise. Education is not a business for people to get rich on the back of students and taxpayers.

 

[princeafrica]

not sure I'd attend D-school if it was over $300,000

 

[princeafrica]

Me, I show up out of boredom.

I feel you lool

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

I read something the other day that the average payback length is 17 years. Think about that for a minute...

Big Hoss

 

[P7898]

Hell I told myself I wouldn't go to a school that would cost me more than $200k lol I feel like that isn't worth it if it's more.

 

[Cold Front]

I read something the other day that the average payback length is 17 years. Think about that for a minute...

Big Hoss

I read about 60% of all borrowers (all degrees) pay their loans off in their 40’s. I’m sure most dentists pay off their loans by that decade too. Those on IBR will probably never payback their loans if they are carrying $400k+ in student loans - due to compounding interest. I personally know couple of young dentists who are on IBR and the loan ballooned by additional $100k in 3-4 years. IBR is becoming a more common repayment plan for all borrowers, with 1 in 3 choosing IBR as repayment option.

 

[P7898]

What happened to shopping smart? I would never pay $100 dollars for a bottle of ketchup when I can wait and get a cheaper bottle of ketchup.

 

[2TH MVR]

Regarding what you read on SDN. Think about it this way. If you are a recent grad or been out for a few years ..... and you are suffering debt wise because you attended a super-expensive DS. Are you going to come on here and tell everyone how bad your experience is? No. Most people having financial difficulties are not going to openly tell everyone that their lives suck and that they made a huge financial mistake. These are bright, professional dentists we're talking about. They have pride.
Posters typically post when they've made the right decisions and are doing ok. Passive brags. I do it. We all do it. Human nature. @charlestweed likes to talk about his self driving expensive Tesla. @Rainee likes to talk about weighing 150lbs and benching 260. @Cold Front and his numerous side business's and @TanMan bragging about his .....uhmm......his tan? (just adding some much needed humour ). Just kidding.
So as bad as some of these posts may seem about the future of dentistry .... it may be worse since most posters are doing ok.
But facts are facts. Dentistry is still OK. It's the debt that is the issue.

1. do not attend a super expensive DS ... you will regret it.
2. rural better than saturated, urban area. Easier said than done .... I understand. I recently went to Wisconsin to see my daughter. Nice state. But no way I would live there. Couldn't wait to get back to Scottsdale. But ..... the positive is that I did not see a lot of dental Corps and dentists on every corner.
3. Specialists are not immune to what is happening to dentistry.

Some positives. Corp offers JOBs that were not available when I graduated. My experience working for a Corp has been positive. Flexible working schedule. No hovering boss. Benefits. Corp works for me since I've already been down the private practice route. Been there. Done that. As you get older .... you just want a SIMPLER life. Also .... the money is better than most think (well .... for my situation). I make more now than I did my last few years of private practice. I predict next year will be even better financially. So .... all POSITIVE.
New grads. Use Corp jobs as TEMP. until you start your own or buy your private practice. Work both until your private practice is established. The jobs are out there. Use Corp to your advantage.

I'm not cheerleading for Corp. Corp got most of us into this mess in the 1st place, but there is nothing that can be done to reverse this. The single goal of all new, energetic dentists should be OWNERSHIP. But use Corp as a hedge.

 

[321931]

Regarding what you read on SDN. Think about it this way. If you are a recent grad or been out for a few years ..... and you are suffering debt wise because you attended a super-expensive DS. Are you going to come on here and tell everyone how bad your experience is? No. Most people having financial difficulties are not going to openly tell everyone that their lives suck and that they made a huge financial mistake. These are bright, professional dentists we're talking about. They have pride.
Posters typically post when they've made the right decisions and are doing ok. Passive brags. I do it. We all do it. Human nature. @charlestweed likes to talk about his self driving expensive Tesla. @Rainee likes to talk about weighing 150lbs and benching 260. @Cold Front and his numerous side business's and @TanMan bragging about his .....uhmm......his tan? (just adding some much needed humour ). Just kidding.
So as bad as some of these posts may seem about the future of dentistry .... it may be worse since most posters are doing ok.
But facts are facts. Dentistry is still OK. It's the debt that is the issue.

1. do not attend a super expensive DS ... you will regret it.
2. rural better than saturated, urban area. Easier said than done .... I understand. I recently went to Wisconsin to see my daughter. Nice state. But no way I would live there. Couldn't wait to get back to Scottsdale. But ..... the positive is that I did not see a lot of dental Corps and dentists on every corner.
3. Specialists are not immune to what is happening to dentistry.

Some positives. Corp offers JOBs that were not available when I graduated. My experience working for a Corp has been positive. Flexible working schedule. No hovering boss. Benefits. Corp works for me since I've already been down the private practice route. Been there. Done that. As you get older .... you just want a SIMPLER life. Also .... the money is better than most think (well .... for my situation). I make more now than I did my last few years of private practice. I predict next year will be even better financially. So .... all POSITIVE.
New grads. Use Corp jobs as TEMP. until you start your own or buy your private practice. Work both until your private practice is established. The jobs are out there. Use Corp to your advantage.

I'm not cheerleading for Corp. Corp got most of us into this mess in the 1st place, but there is nothing that can be done to reverse this. The single goal of all new, energetic dentists should be OWNERSHIP. But use Corp as a hedge.

lol! I bench 235 1x, 225 x5 at 150 body weight. But man 260? Thats like insane. Thanks for thinking of me haha

 

[pubhealthdent]

Hello SDN,

I have recently posted this on Reddit and wanted to get opinions from people in this forum to get a variety of perspectives/views.

I know that other people may have already asked this question in years past, but I would like to get some updated thoughts from current dentists/new graduates as to whether the profession is still worth pursuing "for the money." I know that it is common for many people to advise not to pursue any career for solely "the money", but realistically, we all need to find something to financially support ourselves, whether we like our jobs or not, and figured that this is a stable secure profession going into the future.
After doing a decent amount of shadowing (both ortho and many general dentists) I've found the experience to be okay, but I'm not particularly "passionate" or crazy about teeth in general. I just wanted to pursue dental school over med school because I've always loved science that both could involve, but felt that the work-life balance of a dentist beat the lifestyle/stress of an MD. I also do enjoy the aspect of helping people in the community/healthcare setting.

I've recently graduated with a BSc in Bioinformatics and also enjoy the more tech side of things as well. I just feel that dentistry may be more secure than tech going into the future due to its higher barrier of entry, and figured I should give it a shot before I get too old. But I could also be completely wrong about this as tech jobs are booming in general and I could gain some more experience programming and working in related tech fields.

My GPA, DAT score, and resume are very competitive, so I think I will be a good candidate for when I apply. I just want to know whether this would be a good investment of my time, or if I should build on what I already have attained with my bioinformatics knowledge.

I have two major concerns before moving forward and actually applying for dental school.

1. The average debt: $300k as the average school debt does scare me, but I read/hear about many different opinions regarding whether this debt is worth the investment. Majority of people mention that it really is only worth it if I intend on owning my own practice eventually, but I find that to be a little difficult, given that I've never had super strong business acumen (however I figure this can be learned), and have seen the trend of corporatization in dentistry and the increasingly high debts making it harder to even own nowadays. Realistically, I see myself being an associate moreso than a business owner for the rest of my career, as I prefer not to deal with the headaches that come with owning. I also find society's view on how "rich" a dentist is to be quite skewed, as I think this is heavily based on older dentists who were able to open and build their offices with against lesser competition and with higher insurance reimbursements in the past. I feel that this thinking is also skewing my expectation of how lucrative the profession is.
2. The trend towards "medicare for all," which will obviously have a negative impact on salary. My question is, based on your experience as dentists who have been able to observe these trends for a while, how realistic will the single payer system be as a threat towards this profession?

Any thoughts/advice/opinions on this are welcome.

Thank you!

Just as with any other professional program, you shouldn't go into it unless you're sure it's what you want to do. With that being said, even the more expensive schools are doable if you plan well.

I went to one of the top ten most expensive schools. At time of graduation, my loan balance was $510k. But I didn't restrict myself when looking for jobs and was willing to move somewhere rural which allowed me to get the S2S loan repayment and a salary about $60k/yr more than my classmates. This has allowed me to live very comfortably and even enjoy some small luxuries

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Just curious for the orthos out there, but how has the ortho market recovered from the last recession? How do you think it will ride out the next one around the corner?

Big Hoss

 

[ToothJockey]

Regarding what you read on SDN. Think about it this way. If you are a recent grad or been out for a few years ..... and you are suffering debt wise because you attended a super-expensive DS. Are you going to come on here and tell everyone how bad your experience is? No. Most people having financial difficulties are not going to openly tell everyone that their lives suck and that they made a huge financial mistake. These are bright, professional dentists we're talking about. They have pride.
Posters typically post when they've made the right decisions and are doing ok. Passive brags. I do it. We all do it. Human nature. @charlestweed likes to talk about his self driving expensive Tesla. @Rainee likes to talk about weighing 150lbs and benching 260. @Cold Front and his numerous side business's and @TanMan bragging about his .....uhmm......his tan? (just adding some much needed humour ). Just kidding.
So as bad as some of these posts may seem about the future of dentistry .... it may be worse since most posters are doing ok.
But facts are facts. Dentistry is still OK. It's the debt that is the issue.

1. do not attend a super expensive DS ... you will regret it.
2. rural better than saturated, urban area. Easier said than done .... I understand. I recently went to Wisconsin to see my daughter. Nice state. But no way I would live there. Couldn't wait to get back to Scottsdale. But ..... the positive is that I did not see a lot of dental Corps and dentists on every corner.
3. Specialists are not immune to what is happening to dentistry.

Some positives. Corp offers JOBs that were not available when I graduated. My experience working for a Corp has been positive. Flexible working schedule. No hovering boss. Benefits. Corp works for me since I've already been down the private practice route. Been there. Done that. As you get older .... you just want a SIMPLER life. Also .... the money is better than most think (well .... for my situation). I make more now than I did my last few years of private practice. I predict next year will be even better financially. So .... all POSITIVE.
New grads. Use Corp jobs as TEMP. until you start your own or buy your private practice. Work both until your private practice is established. The jobs are out there. Use Corp to your advantage.

I'm not cheerleading for Corp. Corp got most of us into this mess in the 1st place, but there is nothing that can be done to reverse this. The single goal of all new, energetic dentists should be OWNERSHIP. But use Corp as a hedge.

One thing I've noticed is that in every profession, people always complain about the future. Medicine, dentistry, even finance/investment banking. If you go on Wall Street Oasis you will see how many bankers are complaining about how bonuses will continue to get smaller. People are never optimistic about their professions future. There is probably some psychological reasoning behind this.

The real concern should be to analyze whether dentistry is keeping up with the rest of the economy, because everything is relative. If dental income keeps declining/doesn't keep up with inflation, then dentists can be in trouble in the future. The purchasing power of 200k in 50 years is going to be a lot lower than right now, so if dental income stagnates at 200k then in 50 years we will be in trouble.
In fact, if we use 3% as the inflation rate, then $50k per year now is equivalent to $220k in 50 years, so dental income of $200k in 50 years is about the equivalent of dental income of $45k right now. Would you do dentistry for 45k a year?

Of course this is not a realistic scenario because dental income will increase, as things start costing more dentists will charge more. But definitely something to think about.

 

[deleted903013]

A key issue is most people have no concept of compound interest. Interest rates on loans are now exceeding 7% and are unsubsidized which means your loans are growing by the day from the second you take them out as a D1 and you are incapable of paying any of it back for at least 4 years. It's not the principle which gets you, it's the insanely high interest rates. There's a reason why the abrahamic religions believe usury is a sin. It's a deeply immoral business that decimates people financially. While we're stuck paying interest rates of 7%, the federal government borrows money from the federal reserve at an interest rate of only 3%. They're charging us so much because this there is lots of money to be made indebting people for the rest of their lives. As tuition increases, dental school is becoming a worse financial decision every year. Even some state schools are exceeding 300k nowadays.

 

[Cold Front]

One thing I've noticed is that in every profession, people always complain about the future. Medicine, dentistry, even finance/investment banking. If you go on Wall Street Oasis you will see how many bankers are complaining about how bonuses will continue to get smaller. People are never optimistic about their professions future. There is probably some psychological reasoning behind this.

The real concern should be to analyze whether dentistry is keeping up with the rest of the economy, because everything is relative. If dental income keeps declining/doesn't keep up with inflation, then dentists can be in trouble in the future. The purchasing power of 200k in 50 years is going to be a lot lower than right now, so if dental income stagnates at 200k then in 50 years we will be in trouble.
In fact, if we use 3% as the inflation rate, then $50k per year now is equivalent to $220k in 50 years, so dental income of $200k in 50 years is about the equivalent of dental income of $45k right now. Would you do dentistry for 45k a year?

Of course this is not a realistic scenario because dental income will increase, as things start costing more dentists will charge more. But definitely something to think about.

I don’t know about other professionals complaining about their profession... but in dentistry, the writing is on the wall. Why? Because the problem is quantifiable in dentistry. We actually see new grads graduating every year with bigger and bigger debt, dental offices are getting more expensive to open and operate, while dental insurances actually send letters to providers every year about reducing reimbursements and/or eliminate benefits all together. Delta dental insurance recently put providers on notice for patient 6 months recall bitewings will only be reimbursed every 2 years instead of 6 months. We actually see the growth of DSO’s and how they effected dentistry because most of us worked for them at one point. We have seen new dental schools open up and create more supply of dentists in urban areas, and I can keep going on and on... about other negative factors that have changed the trajectory of dentistry from traditional one to a pure financial race to the bottom.

In your inflation example; the debt to income ratio (student loans to average associate dentist income) went from 1:4 in 1990’s to 3:1 to the average new grad, while some have 4:1, even 5:1 - and those are today’s numbers. Tell us what other profession has these ratios.

 

[321931]

I don’t know about other professionals complaining about their profession... but in dentistry, the writing is on the wall. Why? Because the problem is quantifiable in dentistry. We actually see new grads graduating every year with bigger and bigger debt, dental offices are getting more expensive to open and operate, while dental insurances actually send letters to providers every year about reducing reimbursements and/or eliminate benefits all together. Delta dental insurance recently put providers on notice for patient 6 months recall bitewings will only be reimbursed every 2 years instead of 6 months. We actually see the growth of DSO’s and how they effected dentistry because most of us worked for them at one point. We have seen new dental schools open up and create more supply of dentists in urban areas, and I can keep going on and on... about other negative factors that have changed the trajectory of dentistry from traditional one to a pure financial race to the bottom.

In your inflation example; the debt to income ratio (student loans to average associate dentist income) went from 1:4 in 1990’s to 3:1 to the average new grad, while some have 4:1, even 5:1 - and those are today’s numbers. Tell us what other profession has these ratios.

Wow bitewings every 2 years??? Since when did that happen?!

 

[ToothJockey]

I don’t know about other professionals complaining about their profession... but in dentistry, the writing is on the wall. Why? Because the problem is quantifiable in dentistry. We actually see new grads graduating every year with bigger and bigger debt, dental offices are getting more expensive to open and operate, while dental insurances actually send letters to providers every year about reducing reimbursements and/or eliminate benefits all together. Delta dental insurance recently put providers on notice for patient 6 months recall bitewings will only be reimbursed every 2 years instead of 6 months. We actually see the growth of DSO’s and how they effected dentistry because most of us worked for them at one point. We have seen new dental schools open up and create more supply of dentists in urban areas, and I can keep going on and on... about other negative factors that have changed the trajectory of dentistry from traditional one to a pure financial race to the bottom.

In your inflation example; the debt to income ratio (student loans to average associate dentist income) went from 1:4 in 1990’s to 3:1 to the average new grad, while some have 4:1, even 5:1 - and those are today’s numbers. Tell us what other profession has these ratios.

I actually think we are mostly in agreement. Dental School tuition is exceeding inflation, I think it increases 5% per year. Whereas dental income is falling behind, I think it is actually decreasing based on ADA stats.

But from my perspective as a student, most people won't do dentistry in the future. At some point dental school will cost $1 million+, and trying to pay that off on $150k a year (or less since dental income is decreasing) means that you will have less than 30k to live off of. By 2050, 30k might as well be the new poverty line. Imagine that, a dentist living off of food stamps. Prospective students need to run the calculations taking into account purchasing power of money relative to the time period they will be practicing.

I figure at that point people will stop going to dental school, more people will apply to med school. Med school has lower debt and higher income, and the income trends are up for most specialties and primary care. Dentists might have to stop accepting insurance just to make enough profit on procedures to clear overhead, if it's really as bad as you describe it. Due to inflation rent will go up, cost of supplies will go up, staff salaries will go up and if reimbursements go down then the practice can't run.

But I guess my point was that there is usually always a solution to these types of problems. I'm sure dentistry will be fine in the long run, but from where I'm looking as a student, right now medicine definitely seems like a more secure route. I haven't jumped ship yet but it's crossed my mind.
For all you 4.0 studs out there, run the numbers and keep an open mind.

 

[Cold Front]

Wow bitewings every 2 years??? Since when did that happen?!

It was a private purchase delta dental of Iowa plan, not an employer based plan. Again, a multi-million dollar insurance company nitpicking on 6 months bitewings. 60% of all dental insurance premiums that employers and patients pay go towards an actual treatment, the rest is kept by the dental insurance company.

 

[allantois]

I think it’s unlikely that tuition will go up to 1 million. It will most likely hover at 500k mark, a point where you still have plenty of people sign up. Anyways, people are betting on government to bail them out, which has approved a meager 1% of loan forgiveness applicants so far.

 

[321931]

I think it’s unlikely that tuition will go up to 1 million. It will most likely hover at 500k mark, a point where you still have plenty of people sign up. Anyways, people are betting on government to bail them out, which has approved a meager 1% of loan forgiveness applicants so far.

I beg to differ. Federal reserve wants to cheapen money supply and cut rates. Forget about a 30 year repayment plan. Things will turn into a 15 year car loan, 40 year student loan, 50 year mortgage. What's 30 years anyways right now? Why not just add 10 more, its just 1/3 more.

We have specialists already graduating with 1 mil in debt.

 

[2TH MVR]

Dentists might have to stop accepting insurance just to make enough profit on procedures to clear overhead, if it's really as bad as you describe it. Due to inflation rent will go up, cost of supplies will go up, staff salaries will go up and if reimbursements go down then the practice can't run.

But I guess my point was that there is usually always a solution to these types of problems. I'm sure dentistry will be fine in the long run, but from where I'm looking as a student, right now medicine definitely seems like a more secure route. I haven't jumped ship yet but it's crossed my mind.
For all you 4.0 studs out there, run the numbers and keep an open mind.

Can't see dentists stop taking insurance. You can stop taking certain types of insurance, but not all insurance. We would all love to have FFS cash practices, but that is not reality. Patients are so used to small co-pays when they see their physicians. In time the public may expect to see the same in dental offices.

As for the medicine route. Well .... dentistry had ownership and lifestyle as their primary advantages. Take away ownership ..... and .... the decision process would start to lean medicine. Medicine is recession proof. The biggest positive for myself in considering medicine is that ............. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO SELL YOUR SERVICES. That's probably the biggest disappointment for myself with dentistry. Too much advertisements. Free bleaching. $1000 off Invisalign. Free orthodontic evaluations. $99 for dental exam and cleaning (**** simple cleaning .. .whatever that is .... patients don't know). Everytime dentists reduce our fees, offer free exams, discount our services .... we cheapen our profession. No better than attorneys on billboards. But .... it is what it is.

If your plan is to practice in saturated areas .... medicine is probably the better route. If you can attend a cheaper dental school and have plans to open a small mom and pop dental office in a nice, rural town .... then dentistry is better. Maybe that's the answer? Pre-dents/Pre-meds should consider WHERE and HOW they want to practice .... then decide on dental vs. medicine.

 

[321931]

I actually think we are mostly in agreement. Dental School tuition is exceeding inflation, I think it increases 5% per year. Whereas dental income is falling behind, I think it is actually decreasing based on ADA stats.

But from my perspective as a student, most people won't do dentistry in the future. At some point dental school will cost $1 million+, and trying to pay that off on $150k a year (or less since dental income is decreasing) means that you will have less than 30k to live off of. By 2050, 30k might as well be the new poverty line. Imagine that, a dentist living off of food stamps. Prospective students need to run the calculations taking into account purchasing power of money relative to the time period they will be practicing.

I figure at that point people will stop going to dental school, more people will apply to med school. Med school has lower debt and higher income, and the income trends are up for most specialties and primary care. Dentists might have to stop accepting insurance just to make enough profit on procedures to clear overhead, if it's really as bad as you describe it. Due to inflation rent will go up, cost of supplies will go up, staff salaries will go up and if reimbursements go down then the practice can't run.

But I guess my point was that there is usually always a solution to these types of problems. I'm sure dentistry will be fine in the long run, but from where I'm looking as a student, right now medicine definitely seems like a more secure route. I haven't jumped ship yet but it's crossed my mind.
For all you 4.0 studs out there, run the numbers and keep an open mind.

Very very very dentists are successful in getting out of insurance. I would never go into dentistry thinking "I will be one of the few dentists that have no insurance." It's like winning the lottery.