Current tuition fees

[mouthjanitor]

Hello all. I’ve been practicing 20 years now. I am wondering why the current cohort of entering dental students are OK with the extra extra ordinarily high tuition fees of school versus income of a dentist?

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[Mr.Smile12]

Welcome to the forums!

My simplistic opinion: Unless they are non-trad applicants who know the value of a dollar, I don't know if most students know what impact debt has on one's life or any idea how a dentist gets paid. Business management skills are one of the most cited needs that graduating dental students want addressed in their curriculum, and not every school covers this topic well. Many come from families where dentists and doctors are visible to them.

 

[veryhappylabrador]

Saw your post on DT...just graduated a few years ago and went to public school. I think many pre-dental students shadow in private offices, who by nature are generally more financially successful. They don't get a chance to shadow in places like a DSO office or FQHC and don't see those associate doctors who make an average salary of $150k per year.

Couple that with the older retired faculty who practiced for 40 years in a FFS environment then sold their office, dentistry was pretty good for them. Even the younger dentists who go to schools and talk about their experience generally say the same things: the first x years are tough (it's hard to convey what "tough" means until you actually practice dentistry) but then after they learned how to get fast, they're taking in $400k per year in their corporate associate job working 3.5 days a week.

 

[veryhappylabrador]

Welcome to the forums!

My simplistic opinion: Unless they are non-trad applicants who know the value of a dollar, I don't know if most students know what impact debt has on one's life or any idea how a dentist gets paid. Business management skills are one of the most cited needs that graduating dental students want addressed in their curriculum, and not every school covers this topic well. Many come from families where dentists and doctors are visible to them.

Agreed. For me, the debt was nothing more than a number. During school, we had our loan interest paused for years because of COVID and that made it feel even more like play money, nothing more than a number on the computer screen. I went to public school and so my debt is very low.

If you ask people to rate their driving, 80% of people will say they're better than average. It's easy to think you will be the exceptional dentist bringing in $500k working 4 days per week.

 

[DS2027]

Hello all. I’ve been practicing 20 years now. I am wondering why the current cohort of entering dental students are OK with the extra extra ordinarily high tuition fees of school versus income of a dentist?

I mean I’d say some are naive to how much the debt will impact their lives later. However, for those who acknowledge the high cost, what are we to do? I think everyone hopes they’ll be the ones to make 350k +, but not much we can do about the cost of attendance if we want to be a dentist.

 

[veryhappylabrador]

I mean I’d say some are naive to how much the debt will impact their lives later. However, for those who acknowledge the high cost, what are we to do? I think everyone hopes they’ll be the ones to make 350k +, but not much we can do about the cost of attendance if we want to be a dentist.

Strongly consider an alternative career option or specialize in endo/OS/perio/ortho/peds or secure a solid GP job and expand your skills through quality CE or a rigorous and quality AEGD/GPR...

 

[DS2027]

Strongly consider an alternative career option or specialize in endo/OS/perio/ortho/peds or secure a solid GP job and expand your skills through quality CE or a rigorous and quality AEGD/GPR...

Yeah I feel like most of what you said is what most students are striving for. But not everyone gets into a specialty or feels financially motivated to go back after practicing for a bit. And not everyone is going to land a solid GP job even tho that’s what the goal is, so those are things we all hope for when applying to schools, but not everyone is going to achieve that. Everyone thinks they are going to be a high earning dentist and that’s why they go to dental school.

 

[DS2027]

Strongly consider an alternative career option or specialize in endo/OS/perio/ortho/peds or secure a solid GP job and expand your skills through quality CE or a rigorous and quality AEGD/GPR...

What amount of debt makes it worth it?

 

[mouthjanitor]

Where are they getting this from?

 

[mouthjanitor]

Everyone thinks they are going to be a high earning dentist

Where are they getting this from?

 

[DS2027]

Where are they getting this from?

Great question, my point is that even tho people know what the average dentist makes. No one thinks that THEY will be the average dentist.

 

[mouthjanitor]

Great question, my point is that even tho people know what the average dentist makes. No one thinks that THEY will be the average dentist.

That’s stupid. Someone has to finish last. There’s nothing wrong with being an average dentist. It’s a good stable income. But the current tuition doesn’t justify it

 

[veryhappylabrador]

Where are they getting this from?

-Older docs who sold and retired as faculty: they had a good 30-40 years, then sold for a big fee, now they tell the next generation of how good things were back in the day.
-Younger doctors who are outliers with big income (such as successful alumni or younger docs who are with a DSO and want to market to current students/new grads: "I could do it, so could you.") No one goes back at the school to brag about an average or below average income.

 

[DS2027]

That’s stupid. Someone has to finish last. There’s nothing wrong with being an average dentist. It’s a good stable income. But the current tuition doesn’t justify it

I agree but they think other ppl will by the average dentist

 

[veryhappylabrador]

Yeah I feel like most of what you said is what most students are striving for. But not everyone gets into a specialty or feels financially motivated to go back after practicing for a bit. And not everyone is going to land a solid GP job even tho that’s what the goal is, so those are things we all hope for when applying to schools, but not everyone is going to achieve that. Everyone thinks they are going to be a high earning dentist and that’s why they go to dental school.

Exactly. Everything thinks they will be an exceptional dentist, but 50% of them will be average or below average dentists (nothing wrong with being an average dentist). But knowing those odds, should young people take the risk of $500-750k of debt by the time they're 26 years old to only earn $120-180k for the first few years as an associate?

 

[veryhappylabrador]

I mean I’d say some are naive to how much the debt will impact their lives later. However, for those who acknowledge the high cost, what are we to do? I think everyone hopes they’ll be the ones to make 350k +, but not much we can do about the cost of attendance if we want to be a dentist.

There isn't anything any individual person can do about the tuition. But hopefully the market will correct itself and fewer people will want to become dentists and then tuition normalizes. If you truly want to do it, you can make it work, but it may be very challenging to get out of student debt, save for a practice loan, house, etc.

 

[charlestweed]

Yeah I feel like most of what you said is what most students are striving for. But not everyone gets into a specialty or feels financially motivated to go back after practicing for a bit. And not everyone is going to land a solid GP job even tho that’s what the goal is, so those are things we all hope for when applying to schools, but not everyone is going to achieve that. Everyone thinks they are going to be a high earning dentist and that’s why they go to dental school.

You can’t control the cost of attending but these are things that you can control:

- Your income: you make more by working more days. You can work on Saturdays and Sundays. If the place that hires you doesn’t provide you enough patients, you can get additional associate job at another office. If your newly built practice doesn’t have enough patients, you can supplement your income by working p/t for the corp office, instead of coming on here and complaining how bad dentistry is. If you don't think cleaning is beneath you, you can do your own cleanings instead of hiring the hygienist (and then complain why the hygienist makes so much money).

-Your spending habit: If you go out buy nice things and travel all the time, you will have less money to repay your student loan debt. If you stretch out the loan repayment term to 30 years or sign up for the IBR (instead of the standard 10 year repayment plan) so you can afford to buy nice things, you will be in debt forever. But if you continue to live like a student (or live with your parents) for a few years (like what the medical students do after their graduations) and use the bulk of your income to pay off the debt ASAP, you will start living like an above average dentist before you turn 40.

It’s up to you. You can be a below average dentist if you choose to work 3 or less days a week. You can choose to be an average dentist and work 4-5 days a week. Or you can you can choose to be an above average dentist and make $250+k/year by working more days than what an average dentist works. You control your own life. Specializing doesn't necessarily help raise your income. You still have to go around to meet the GPs. You still have to work hard to keep the GPs happy so they continue to refer more pateints to your office.

 

[DS2027]

There isn't anything any individual person can do about the tuition. But hopefully the market will correct itself and fewer people will want to become dentists and then tuition normalizes. If you truly want to do it, you can make it work, but it may be very challenging to get out of student debt, save for a practice loan, house, etc.

I certainly agree, one thing I worry about is if I’d be able to afford to buy a practice

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Sad to say this, but I have never seen a situation where tuition is ever "normalized."

 

[askadds]

-Older docs who sold and retired as faculty: they had a good 30-40 years, then sold for a big fee, now they tell the next generation of how good things were back in the day.
-Younger doctors who are outliers with big income (such as successful alumni or younger docs who are with a DSO and want to market to current students/new grads: "I could do it, so could you.") No one goes back at the school to brag about an average or below average income.

That statement is incorrect. No one ever sells their office and is happy with the transaction. We are getting 70-90% of last years collections which is peanuts compared to the year salary. Another reason dentistry is broken, any other business gets a multiple of gross, we get less than 1x multiple. Most older docs drive the practice to the ground and work until they cant because how is it fair to sell for less what you can make in a couple of years of work? Nuts.

Dentistry is dead, put a fork in it. Either you have to borrow another big loan and start a practice to pay the original loan OR accept 120k a year for the next 20 years and get the loan forgiven. We dedicate so much of our time to become a dentist (yes you are giving up a lot) when you can earn the same doing something much simpler, less stressful jobs with manageable loans. I have a friend who decided not to go into dentistry when I went. He used his bio degree to land a laboratory job in pharma, as the decades have gone by he has slowly moved up the ladder making 200k, no loans, 401k, PTO and so much more.

 

[veryhappylabrador]

That statement is incorrect. No one ever sells their office and is happy with the transaction. We are getting 70-90% of last years collections which is peanuts compared to the year salary. Another reason dentistry is broken, any other business gets a multiple of gross, we get less than 1x multiple. Most older docs drive the practice to the ground and work until they cant because how is it fair to sell for less what you can make in a couple of years of work? Nuts.

Dentistry is dead, put a fork in it. Either you have to borrow another big loan and start a practice to pay the original loan OR accept 120k a year for the next 20 years and get the loan forgiven. We dedicate so much of our time to become a dentist (yes you are giving up a lot) when you can earn the same doing something much simpler, less stressful jobs with manageable loans. I have a friend who decided not to go into dentistry when I went. He used his bio degree to land a laboratory job in pharma, as the decades have gone by he has slowly moved up the ladder making 200k, no loans, 401k, PTO and so much more.

Agreed, not every dentist will sell for a big fee to a DSO. Solo doc GP practices may go for anywhere between low 6 figures to $1.2m probably if another GP is purchasing the office.

 

[veryhappylabrador]

Agreed, not every dentist will sell for a big fee to a DSO. Solo doc GP practices may go for anywhere between low 6 figures to $1.2m probably if another GP is purchasing the office.

Which may sound like a decent amount, but it probably costs $200-500k in loans to open or buy an existing practice if I'm not mistaken?

 

[askadds]

Which may sound like a decent amount, but it probably costs $200-500k in loans to open or buy an existing practice if I'm not mistaken?

building a practice has doubled in price for construction etc etc. its pushing close to 200sq for construction only, so 2000 sq office will cost 400k just to build, another 250k in equipment etc so the graduates are carrying 500K+ SL and another 500K+ building an office. Let that sink in, before you buy a house, pay for a wedding, costs associated with kids and life in general, you're already in 1 million of debt financed at say 5%?? 50k in interest payments alone yearly!! LOL what a joke this profession has gotten.

DSO sales are for big time practices, 1.5 mill + to get multiples we are discussing, they are not interested in the small practices which will get less than 1x vs big ones that get 4x+.

 

[charlestweed]

Building an office from scratch is a big waste of money, especially right now when the cost of building material has gone up so much. If you don't mind working with low tech equipment, there are plenty of existing offices that you can buy for under $100K. There are plenty of dentists who have mis-managed their offices....decide to walk away and sell them at dirt cheap price. The sad thing is many younger grads look down on these low tech offices. A son of my dentist friend didn't want to work at his dad's office because it's not high tech enough....and he doesn't want to work on Saturdays either. My son would probably feel the same way about my office, which only cost me $55k to build (in 2018....not 15-20 years ago), if he decided to follow my footsteps. This is why I want my son to pursue medicine....he will just work at the hospital and won't have to open his own office.

Here are a couple of listings that I found on the dentaltradder.com website:

 

[askadds]

Welcome to the forums!

My simplistic opinion: Unless they are non-trad applicants who know the value of a dollar, I don't know if most students know what impact debt has on one's life or any idea how a dentist gets paid. Business management skills are one of the most cited needs that graduating dental students want addressed in their curriculum, and not every school covers this topic well. Many come from families where dentists and doctors are visible to them.

Question for you, as an advisor are you relaying the messages from us practicing docs to students you advise? Are you recommending dentistry to students and if so, what are your recommendations based on?

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Question for you, as an advisor are you relaying the messages from us practicing docs to students you advise? Are you recommending dentistry to students and if so, what are your recommendations based on?

Having been on SDN for years, yes I encourage applicants to not take my word for it, but to also ask local practicing dentists. I mean, that's a major point of shadowing after all. I also have gotten plenty of messages from the preceptor faculty about the state of the profession and what they tell their students.

I admit there is a tightrope in admissions and advising. Our jobs depend on having students enroll, and some of us will have an attitude of caveat emptor. I emphasize knowing that succeeding in dentistry is reliant on a larger ecosystem, not just your grades or your passion to help others. It holds true for most of the health professions too.

In short, yes, I take notes of what you all are saying (here).

 

[CharlestonToothCompany]

Anyone per chance have a list of current tuitions at all the schools? The most recent one I could find online was not accurate at least as it pertained to my alma mater, MUSC, which is currently around 68k and they have listed as 43K. Plus there are books and required insurance of about 10k. So, absent of living expenses, they should be racking up 88k per year or 352k in 4 years.

Also, a cursory search of dental school indebtedness is showing 301k. That must be a farce. Or they may be including those whose parents paid for dental school and this have zero loans.

Oh, and for the record, I tell everyone that the investment is no longer worth it, especially since most will work as cogs in the wheels of DSOs.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

ADA keeps an annual survey: Dental Education

https://www.ada.org/-/media/project/ada-organization/ada/ada-org/files/resources/research/hpi/sde2_2022-23-final.xlsx

 

[CharlestonToothCompany]

ADA keeps an annual survey: Dental Education

https://www.ada.org/-/media/project/ada-organization/ada/ada-org/files/resources/research/hpi/sde2_2022-23-final.xlsx

Yes this was the source I saw. It lists my school as 47k (I mistakenly wrote 43k). It is incorrect as it is about 68k so it makes me wonder if all the schools are incorrect.