Curriculum Concerns

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ConcernedMedStu

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Hi Everyone,

I am a current MS 1 at a US medical school.

I am trying to guage how different schools approach the basic science years. At my school, we have a system-based curriculum. However, it feels incredibly disorganized and fragmented (doesn't seem to really have any organized content control). We don't have a sylabus, so trying to judge what we are supposed to learn has been challenging. Our exams have been pretty tough (averages 65-70) with a huge distribution (standard deviation is about 12 points). About 10-20% of students have been failing each exam and consequently the block.

Is this a typical experience in school?
 
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Hi Everyone,

I am a current MS 1 at a US medical school.

I am trying to guage how different schools approach the basic science years. At my school, we have a system-based curriculum. However, it feels incredibly disorganized and fragmented (don't seem to really have any organized content control). We don't have a sylabus, so trying to judge what we are supposed to learn has been challenging. Our exams have been pretty tough (averages 65-70) with a huge distribution (standard deviation is about 12 points). About 10-20% of student have been failing each exam and consequently the block.

Is this a typical experience in school?

I'm also a MSI at a system based school. Sure, so far it feels fragmented sometimes but our average is around 85 and its P/F so everyone over a 70 gets a P anyway. We do have syllabi too so that helps. Not sure if my school is average but yours does sound tough to me.
 
My school is traditional for the first year and system-based during second year only. I almost feel like they took First Aid, and made it into a 2 year course.

They give us a detailed syllabus, course objectives, and notes. It's pretty well organized. The averages are somewhere in the high 80s with the SD being 3-5 points.

I think only about a few students end up re-mediating a block.
 
Thanks for the replies. I am a non-trad, non science major, so that may be part of the issue. However, it seems like most of the work is organizing the disorganization that is the curriculum. I have never struggled with school as much in my life.
 
My school is traditional for the first year and system-based during second year only. I almost feel like they took First Aid, and made it into a 2 year course.

They give us a detailed syllabus, course objectives, and notes. It's pretty well organized. The averages are somewhere in the high 80s with the SD being 3-5 points.

I think only about a few students end up re-mediating a block.

They post the lecturers ppts. And podcasts. That's it...
 
They post the lecturers ppts. And podcasts. That's it...

No course objectives? I think med school would be impossible without well-written course objectives.
 
No course objectives? I think med school would be impossible without well-written course objectives.

We have "learning objectives." These are mostly worthless I have found. There are about 50 per lecture.
 
My school is traditional for the first year and system-based during second year only. I almost feel like they took First Aid, and made it into a 2 year course.

They give us a detailed syllabus, course objectives, and notes. It's pretty well organized. The averages are somewhere in the high 80s with the SD being 3-5 points.

I think only about a few students end up re-mediating a block.

Ours is like this. Detailed syllabus or ppts. Averages are generally around 80-85. I'll look in First Aid (although very rarely) and it seems like they're really stressing the things First Aid stresses.
 
I wonder what school you go to OP, because one of my friends at another systems-based program (which is pretty new) is having the same problem as you. Syllabi make the med school world go round.
 
We have "learning objectives." These are mostly worthless I have found. There are about 50 per lecture.

How are they written? Is it like "know the Kreb cycle" or is it like "draw the regulatory steps and their allosteric effectors/covalent modifications in the Kreb cycle."

I found learning objectives to be pretty helpful. Cuts through the crap and lets you focus on high yield material.

We also have ppts and recordings of live lectures to help too.
 
How are they written? Is it like "know the Kreb cycle" or is it like "draw the regulatory steps and their allosteric effectors/covalent modifications in the Kreb cycle."

I found learning objectives to be pretty helpful. Cuts through the crap and lets you focus on high yield material.

We also have ppts and recordings of live lectures to help too.

There are extremes. Some will have 20 very detailed LOs for an hour lecture.

Some lectures don't even have them.

I've always been a very self-motivated, disciplined learner (self-studied and took my MCAT when I was flying beetween LA and Portland, ME weekly). Hence, my academic struggles have kind of taken me by surprise.
 
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I've always been a very self-motivated, disciplined learner (self-studied and took my MCAT when I was flying beetween LA and Portland, ME weekly). Hence, my academic struggles have kind of taken me by surprise.

Yeah I dunno what to tell you except welcome to med school. I think there is always an adjustment for everyone. Hang in there.

I think I'm really blessed that my med school really fits my learning style.
 
Hi Everyone,

I am a current MS 1 at a US medical school.

I am trying to guage how different schools approach the basic science years. At my school, we have a system-based curriculum. However, it feels incredibly disorganized and fragmented (doesn't seem to really have any organized content control). We don't have a sylabus, so trying to judge what we are supposed to learn has been challenging. Our exams have been pretty tough (averages 65-70) with a huge distribution (standard deviation is about 12 points). About 10-20% of students have been failing each exam and consequently the block.

Is this a typical experience in school?

Is your curriculum new? The reason I ask is that they could still be ironing out the rough spots. Maybe take it up with the administration. If it's old and sucks then they probably don't care lol.
 
I looked at our LOs from a recent 4 week block.

We had 400 LOs. And a 60 question exam at the end. Bit hard to judge what to know.

We have a free tutoring service, which is helpful. But, in medical school, being reliant on them is not practical.

However, the overall structure is to throw info at you and expect you to develop your own organization and judge what is important. This becomes very difficult if your experience with the material is limited (especially considering the rushed timetable). It's possible, but extremely difficult.

I know professors don't like students that ask "what's going to be on the test?" But when you have limited time and limited background in really anything taught, time becomes a huge issue. Many of my classmates are struggling trying to make sense of what is being taught.

And, despite being a P/F school, we are curved. The guarenteed pass score is 75. However, when our exam averages are not close to that, competition to not fail creeps in.

As far as the med school I attend, I prefer not to say. Primarily, the school's empasis for years was on basic science research, and not really on clinical application and correlation. This cuture is still around.
 
To clarify, the 400 LOs were from lecture only (lecture covers phys, pharm, biochem, etc). We have a pretty heavy anatomy curriculum on top of it that adds to the workload.
 
Just to compare, exams so far have been q3weeks and we get about 100ish learning objectives per exam. I found them to be helpful, but not everyone in my class does.

Good luck. I think things will get better later in the year for you because you will get used to the pace. Also, I've noticed that the information tends to be organized better later on the course because everything is brought together to give you a big picture. Right now, it sounds like you are lost in the small details.
 
Just to compare, exams so far have been q3weeks and we get about 100ish learning objectives per exam. I found them to be helpful, but not everyone in my class does.

Good luck. I think things will get better later in the year for you because you will get used to the pace. Also, I've noticed that the information tends to be organized better later on the course because everything is brought together to give you a big picture. Right now, it sounds like you are lost in the small details.

Thanks for your support and thoughts. Best of luck in your studies.

I think the problems are resulting from a very disorganized curriculum with a heavier basic science element than an average med school clashing with my non-science background. Makes for a fun experience.
 
Ok, now I am not certain that I am going through an adjustment.

In the last 48 hours (since Monday), we have coverd.

-All of head and neck anatomy, and pelvic anatomy
-Phamacokinetics
-And a very condensed pharma block.

This is on top of our two week systems-based GI course.

We have a test on all of this Friday.
 
In the last 48 hours (since Monday), we have coverd.

-All of head and neck anatomy, and pelvic anatomy

Barbara Barzansky, Ph.D., M.H.P.E.
LCME Secretary, 2011-2012
Director, Undergraduate Medical Education

Council on Medical Education
American Medical Association
515 North State Street
Chicago, IL 60654
Phone: 312-464-4933
Fax: 312-464-5830
 
Ok, now I am not certain that I am going through an adjustment.

In the last 48 hours (since Monday), we have coverd.

-All of head and neck anatomy, and pelvic anatomy
-Phamacokinetics
-And a very condensed pharma block.

This is on top of our two week systems-based GI course.

We have a test on all of this Friday.
Man, that does sound like a cluster****. I can't imagine 2 days to learn EVERYTHING about head and neck and pelvis (arguably, the two worst blocks of anatomy).

Good luck.
 
Barbara Barzansky, Ph.D., M.H.P.E.
LCME Secretary, 2011-2012
Director, Undergraduate Medical Education

Council on Medical Education
American Medical Association
515 North State Street
Chicago, IL 60654
Phone: 312-464-4933
Fax: 312-464-5830

Yah get your own medical school to lose its accreditation. That's a smart idea

on the otherhand. If it's a big school that has the resources and can make changes...
 
Yah get your own medical school to lose its accreditation. That's a smart idea

on the otherhand. If it's a big school that has the resources and can make changes...

Unless there's a specific rule that's being violated, I doubt they would even do anything. Could you imagine if a bunch of students called LCME complaining that med school was too hard?
 
This concerns me a lot actually.

I am a non-trad, 34 MCAT, 3.7 CGPA, SGPA (from a highly ranked UG school)

Worked as a paramedic and at a demanding, high performance job before school.

I completed all prerequisits required to enter the school I attend duing my undergrad years.

After passing my first block exam (above class average), I have failed the next two exams. It feels like I am missing some sort of knowledge that I needed to have. I do study pretty hard, too (60 hrs a week on med school stuff).

I get all of the concepts. I have sought out private tutoring, study groups, faculty, supplemental resources, et cetera. I have never had any previous academic difficulties.

Our tests have been really specific and difficult. Its a very different learning experience from what I expected.

Many of my classmates are very frusterated, as well. With a weaker background in the biological sciences combined with a curved class, I feel that there is no way I can pass.
 
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By far the best thing to do is ask your 2nd years for advice.
 
You gotta figure out what you're missing. How are other students figuring out which details are important which are not? Go and ask students who are successful and ask how they know which specifics are important.

If you are understanding the concepts but not doing well on exams, perhaps you need more practice. Have you tried picking up review books and doing the questions in them? Are there test banks available at your school?

I think it's about time you talk to your dean and ask him or her about advice. There might be a decelerated track that you can enter?
 
You gotta figure out what you're missing. How are other students figuring out which details are important which are not? Go and ask students who are successful and ask how they know which specifics are important.

If you are understanding the concepts but not doing well on exams, perhaps you need more practice. Have you tried picking up review books and doing the questions in them? Are there test banks available at your school?

I think it's about time you talk to your dean and ask him or her about advice. There might be a decelerated track that you can enter?

We have exam averages in the 60s and low 70s. It seems everyone has been struggling. Below a certain score, you don't pass. This score is usually about 60. We have 50 question exams. Four or five wrong answers below mean, and you are done. Failing doesn't seem too hard around here, especially considering the workload I referenced above.

I will look into other options. Thanks for your help
 
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I looked at our LOs from a recent 4 week block.

We had 400 LOs. And a 60 question exam at the end. Bit hard to judge what to know.

We have a free tutoring service, which is helpful. But, in medical school, being reliant on them is not practical.

However, the overall structure is to throw info at you and expect you to develop your own organization and judge what is important. This becomes very difficult if your experience with the material is limited (especially considering the rushed timetable). It's possible, but extremely difficult.

I know professors don't like students that ask "what's going to be on the test?" But when you have limited time and limited background in really anything taught, time becomes a huge issue. Many of my classmates are struggling trying to make sense of what is being taught.

And, despite being a P/F school, we are curved. The guarenteed pass score is 75. However, when our exam averages are not close to that, competition to not fail creeps in.

As far as the med school I attend, I prefer not to say. Primarily, the school's empasis for years was on basic science research, and not really on clinical application and correlation. This cuture is still around.



Unless there's a specific rule that's being violated, I doubt they would even do anything. Could you imagine if a bunch of students called LCME complaining that med school was too hard?

Yes I can imagine it...




:laugh:
 
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Yah get your own medical school to lose its accreditation. That's a smart idea

Yah a phone call isn't going to end your school's accreditation.

Isoprop said:
Unless there's a specific rule that's being violated, I doubt they would even do anything. Could you imagine if a bunch of students called LCME complaining that med school was too hard?

Assuming this individual is being truthful, I can imagine they would like to hear about a school they are accrediting that has compressed all of head and neck anatomy, pelvic anatomy, and other material, subjects normally covered over weeks, into 48 hours. That would be egregious.
 
We have exam averages in the 60s and low 70s. It seems everyone has been struggling. Below a certain score, you don't pass. This score is usually about 60. We have 50 question exams. Four or five wrong answers below mean, and you are done. Failing doesn't seem too hard around here, especially considering the workload I referenced above.

I will look into other options. Thanks for your help

Go talk to someone higher up. Start with your Dean of Student Affairs, then move up the totem pole, talking to everyone who has anything to do with the curriculum. We were the first class on our new curriculum, and had some panic attacks, but I don't think our averages have ever, ever been below 75. And most of the time, we only have 1-2 people actually fail the tests, and very rarely do they fail the course. If you're routinely failing exams (especially if a good portion of the class [>10%] is failing), then something is wrong and it should be addressed.
 
How is it possible to have h&n and pelvis in 2 days? We had 14 completely necessary lectures between those two. This doesn't count review lectures, cross sections, radiography, clinical correlations, embryology, etc. - just the straight "this is where this crap is" lectures.

I mean, I guess you could just pull two 8 hour days of straight lecture, but... yeah.
 
How is it possible to have h&n and pelvis in 2 days?

I mean, I guess you could just pull two 8 hour days of straight lecture, but... yeah.

Agreed, not possible. No one does 8hr/day (16 hrs/2 days) of anatomy lectures. Sounds like an exaggeration of the problem.

I'm a strong believer in the idea that, if others are passing, you can figure out how to pass. Stop complaining or analyzing the problem because you aren't going to change it (unless you want to escalate it). Ask successful students their strategy.

Escalation is a slippery slope and an uphill battle you don't want to fight. You need to adapt instead.
 
Agreed, not possible. No one does 8hr/day (16 hrs/2 days) of anatomy lectures. Sounds like an exaggeration of the problem.

I'm a strong believer in the idea that, if others are passing, you can figure out how to pass. Stop complaining or analyzing the problem because you aren't going to change it (unless you want to escalate it). Ask successful students their strategy.

Escalation is a slippery slope and an uphill battle you don't want to fight. You need to adapt instead.

Even if they did go through all of that they couldn't possibly test you on everything and probably specified which areas to focus on. Just focus on those areas when you go to study.
 
lol you guys get learning objectives?

Our "syllabi" only have very general objectives for courses, such as:
-Inquire into the processes of human development.
-Establish a frame of reference for learning the proper names of anatomic structures.
 
Reading through this thread, I realized I am in the same med school class as the OP. So I'll say a few things here about what the OP wrote.

First, our med school is indeed pretty hard, with a heavy emphasis on research and the basic sciences. We just started a new curriculum over the last few years. The staff is still shuffling the course materials around trying to figure out what combination works best, and sometimes they screw up. But in general they are very receptive to student input. We have 2 deans who are especially accessible to students and anyone with specific concerns can arrange meetings with them and talk.

We just finished a 3-week integrated block on the GI system. The first 2 weeks covered mainly GI physiology and anatomy and was fine. The problem was that the staff decided to throw in some extra material, including head and neck anatomy, during the last week of the block when people are normally trying to review for the test. The staff's rationale was that if we do a little bit of head and neck dissection here and there we wouldn't have to learn all of it at once. We were also not assigned all of head and neck, just the body parts corresponding to cranial nerves V, VII, and a few other parts of the region.

The plan was well-meaning, but the staff also underestimated just how hard head and neck anatomy is and gave us too much information too quickly. To make matters worse, they also told us to start dissecting before giving us a lecture on any of the material. Most of us became confused because, without a prior lecture on the material, we had no idea how to proceed. The chief anatomy faculty had to give a last-minute lecture on head and neck anatomy the day before our GI exam. The lecture was very informative, but it was too little, too late. There was only so much I could cram in a day since I still needed to review the rest of the block.

As for pelvic anatomy, we were given bits and pieces of pelvic anatomy over the past 2 months and only had 1 lab specifically devoted to the topic this block, and that was during week 2. I didn't think the pelvic anatomy we learned this block was overly complicated.

Most of us in the class are pretty irritated at the staff for organizing the material this way. I was pretty frustrated myself. But I'm sure the staff will get plenty of feedback come January and will not repeat the mistake next year.

To the OP, I understand where you frustration is coming from, but much of it is just the nature of medical school. Not only is there a lot of material to learn, but with the constant shuffling of lecturers (at least at our school) it's often hard to separate the big picture from all the seemingly random information we are learning. This problem is especially evident in a block like GI where whole lectures are devoted to learning the names of random enzymes and transporters that seemingly have nothing to do with each other.

Best of luck studying. If I can offer any word of advice I'd say try to figure out what style of learning you are best at, if you haven't done so already, and then try to make use of the resources at your disposal based on your personal style. The lectures might not be the best for your style. Keep in mind that because our school is more research-based, there will be a lot of extra information presented in slides that are more for our own interest and less for the test. I think if you were cut out all the extraneous material in the slides then most of this block (save the head and neck anatomy) really wasn't that bad. And the people at the academic support office can help you simplify the material if you need extra help with that.
 
I love how you two have both made new accounts just to post ahahahah
 
Reading through this thread, I realized I am in the same med school class as the OP. So I'll say a few things here about what the OP wrote.

First, our med school is indeed pretty hard, with a heavy emphasis on research and the basic sciences. We just started a new curriculum over the last few years. The staff is still shuffling the course materials around trying to figure out what combination works best, and sometimes they screw up. But in general they are very receptive to student input. We have 2 deans who are especially accessible to students and anyone with specific concerns can arrange meetings with them and talk.

We just finished a 3-week integrated block on the GI system. The first 2 weeks covered mainly GI physiology and anatomy and was fine. The problem was that the staff decided to throw in some extra material, including head and neck anatomy, during the last week of the block when people are normally trying to review for the test. The staff's rationale was that if we do a little bit of head and neck dissection here and there we wouldn't have to learn all of it at once. We were also not assigned all of head and neck, just the body parts corresponding to cranial nerves V, VII, and a few other parts of the region.

The plan was well-meaning, but the staff also underestimated just how hard head and neck anatomy is and gave us too much information too quickly. To make matters worse, they also told us to start dissecting before giving us a lecture on any of the material. Most of us became confused because, without a prior lecture on the material, we had no idea how to proceed. The chief anatomy faculty had to give a last-minute lecture on head and neck anatomy the day before our GI exam. The lecture was very informative, but it was too little, too late. There was only so much I could cram in a day since I still needed to review the rest of the block.

As for pelvic anatomy, we were given bits and pieces of pelvic anatomy over the past 2 months and only had 1 lab specifically devoted to the topic this block, and that was during week 2. I didn't think the pelvic anatomy we learned this block was overly complicated.

Most of us in the class are pretty irritated at the staff for organizing the material this way. I was pretty frustrated myself. But I'm sure the staff will get plenty of feedback come January and will not repeat the mistake next year.

To the OP, I understand where you frustration is coming from, but much of it is just the nature of medical school. Not only is there a lot of material to learn, but with the constant shuffling of lecturers (at least at our school) it's often hard to separate the big picture from all the seemingly random information we are learning. This problem is especially evident in a block like GI where whole lectures are devoted to learning the names of random enzymes and transporters that seemingly have nothing to do with each other.

Best of luck studying. If I can offer any word of advice I'd say try to figure out what style of learning you are best at, if you haven't done so already, and then try to make use of the resources at your disposal based on your personal style. The lectures might not be the best for your style. Keep in mind that because our school is more research-based, there will be a lot of extra information presented in slides that are more for our own interest and less for the test. I think if you were cut out all the extraneous material in the slides then most of this block (save the head and neck anatomy) really wasn't that bad. And the people at the academic support office can help you simplify the material if you need extra help with that.

Completely different story from the OP. Other than the poor organization, I don't think this is far off most med schools.

To the OP, I understand where you frustration is coming from, but much of it is just the nature of medical school.
👍
 
lol you guys get learning objectives?

Our "syllabi" only have very general objectives for courses, such as:
-Inquire into the processes of human development.
-Establish a frame of reference for learning the proper names of anatomic structures.

That's what we have as well. I wish we got syllabi...
 
ditto, although "know moore's and you should be good" is helpful 🙂
 
lol you guys get learning objectives?

Our "syllabi" only have very general objectives for courses, such as:
-Inquire into the processes of human development.
-Establish a frame of reference for learning the proper names of anatomic structures.

:laugh:

That's what we have as well. I wish we got syllabi...
I'm very jealous of schools that give their students detailed, organized syllabi. Our lecture notes are somewhat hit-or-miss, depending on the class. That sucks if you don't go to lectures (like myself). Some of my classmates, who do go to class, are absolutely awesome though and make really great study guides that they share with the rest of us, which ends up compensating for the lack of syllabi. 🙂
 
no learning objectives? that's friggin aweful. i don't think i would have survived biochem w/o them.

though a lot of my classmates ignore the learning objectives and just memorize almost everything from the course notes. i spend too much time on SDN to do that.
 
no learning objectives? that's friggin aweful. i don't think i would have survived biochem w/o them.

though a lot of my classmates ignore the learning objectives and just memorize almost everything from the course notes. i spend too much time on SDN to do that.
I generally ignore the learning objectives as well. I do most of my studying from review books so I have an idea of what level of knowledge is expected for the boards. Then, I usually go through a study guide and/or lecture notes a couple of times before the exam so I get the minutiae that wasn't in the review books, but will be tested on the exam. It's worked out pretty well so far and hasn't been too overwhelming (as long as I don't spend too much time on FB or SDN :laugh:).
 
lol you guys get learning objectives?

Our "syllabi" only have very general objectives for courses, such as:
-Inquire into the processes of human development.
-Establish a frame of reference for learning the proper names of anatomic structures.

That sounds exactly like my med school, and shows why I hate the field of medical education as we know it.
 
Just to post some facts.

I attend a medical school in the top 20, per the USNWR research rankings. Average MCAT of the incoming class is between 34 and 35.

Number of students scoring 70 or below on our exams.

Cardio 47
Pulm 12
GI 39

125 students in the class.

Any insight from other medical schools?
 
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Just to post some facts.

I attend a medical school in the top 20, per the USNWR research rankings. Average MCAT of the incoming class is between 34 and 35.

Number of students scoring 70 or below on our exams.

Cardio 47
Pulm 12
GI 39

125 students in the class.

Any insight from other medical schools?

The average for our last block was around an 88. Meh.
 
Just to post some facts.

I attend a medical school in the top 20, per the USNWR research rankings. Average MCAT of the incoming class is between 34 and 35.

Number of students scoring 70 or below on our exams.

Cardio 47
Pulm 12
GI 39

125 students in the class.

Any insight from other medical schools?

Wow! Do they fail all of those people?
 
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