CVS To Offer In-Store Mental Health Counseling

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DynamicDidactic

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Makes me think of this
I gotta admit, when Mega Lo Mart first came to town, I hated it... but I like buying my pants and hammers in the same place, so I can see how they look together.
--Hank Hill
 


Remember when theranos cut a deal with Walgreens? Imagine the malpractice actions from this nonsense. Expert witness work for life.

You're telling me there's some kind of predictable liability here?

Eve Townsend, a licensed social worker and therapist at the Jenkintown CVS, says she hopes offering in-store care will help reach more people in her community, such as Miller. Every other therapist she knows, Townsend says, is already swamped with patients.

"That's a huge issue," she says. "People are saying, 'I'm crying out for help, I need this particular service, I don't want to go in-patient, I don't want to go to the emergency room,' " but they don't have anywhere to go, Townsend says.

Her CVS patients can talk to her over video, or in an upholstered chair in her office, which sits inside CVS' urgent care clinic, next to a nurse practitioner, and adjacent to the pharmacy. This proximity to everything works well, she says.

"To be able to say I can refer you within this clinic with a nurse practitioner or you can get your medication in the same place where you're getting your mental health services — it's like a one-stop shop," Townsend says.
 
I don't want to go in-patient, I don't want to go to the emergency room

How many open hospital beds does Jenkintown have that going inpatient is even an option for someone whose condition can be effectively managed in a 15 minute skype session with a social worker sitting in a CVS broom closet?

I'm all for increased care access, but I can't see any way this will be effective. From a pragmatic standpoint, I also seem them eating significant financial losses even before the lawsuits begin...
 
"People are saying, 'I'm crying out for help, I need this particular service, I don't want to go in-patient, I don't want to go to the emergency room,' " but they don't have anywhere to go, Townsend says.

That level acuity is exactly what you DON'T want to see in a pop-up CVS counseling session. There is a huge need, but this is *not* the model for that population and associated needs.
 
Next up: "McDonalds Offers Drive-Thru Income Tax Preparation Services With Every Order over $10.00"

At some point our culture might want to re-imagine the raising of 'convenience' as a value to the top of our hierarchy of values


Remember when theranos cut a deal with Walgreens? Imagine the malpractice actions from this nonsense. Expert witness work for life.
 
Next up: "McDonalds Offers Drive-Thru Income Tax Preparation Services With Every Order over $10.00"

At some point our culture might want to re-imagine the raising of 'convenience' as a value to the top of our hierarchy of values

Convenience is really just a nice way to say that poor people don't deserve adequate healthcare. They're rolling this out in underserved communities. And, while I am supportive of increasing access to underserved communities, it would seem that we're making a tradeoff with quality. Once again, the laughingstock that is MH parity rears its head.
 
A lot of your objections seem to assume this fantasy world where a person experiencing "difficulties" (maybe even meeting criteria for a depressive or anxiety disorder) can easily and quickly access adequate (not top-notch- but adequate) mental health care by simply picking up the phone and scheduling a visit next week with their local Psychologist/Health Services Provider. I accept that there might be regional differences, but this is how it works in my neck of the woods* (inspired by actual events!):

-You contact your insurance company (assume a standard HMO type group plan through your employee, with reasonable mental health benefits) for a list of providers, or you just do a web search for providers in your area
-If you have some knowledge of ESTs, you start to contact providers who's bios indicate experience with validated treatments for the "difficulties" in question, knocking off 50-75% of the providers on the list who say things like "expert in working with young children and the elderly" or "I integrate [non-validated, non-psychology nonsense] into my practice" or "I want to join you on your spiritual life journey of healing." If you have no knowledge of ESTs, you probably just start at the top of the list and work through it alphabetically (wow, Aadrian Aadleson LMHC, CAGS, ABCDEFG really has a busy practice!). In a list of 20 providers, there are maybe 2-3 doctoral level psychologists.
-10-20% of the numbers you call are either wrong or out of service. You leave messages at a dozen others (you think an actual person is going to answer the phone? How quaint!). Maybe half of them actually return your call. Of those, most say "sorry, no opening now. Have you tried calling [clinician who did not return your call]? Most of the rest have stopped directly accepting your insurance and require full payment at time of service, but are "pretty sure" you can submit your claim on your own and will probably get reimbursed.
-You finally speak with an actually person who will take your insurance and is accepting new clients. There are some things in their bio/training history you have to overlook, but hey, they actually called you back, accept your insurance, and have an opening!
-Turns out that opening is right smack in the middle of your work shift or school day! Oh well, you have some vacation/sick/personal time you can use, at least for a few weeks,(or it's ok to miss one day a week of 5th period AP Bio, but you'll have to make up that work on your own, at home, at night, alone, where your "difficulties" or seem to be most impactful and make it hard to concentrate.
-You get the approval from your boss/teacher to miss time (due to concerns about the stigma of mental health difficulties, you make up some story about why you need the time, both to tell your boss/teacher when asking permission, as well as to tell you coworkers/other students in your class when they ask why you aren't there). A month or two after you started looking, you go to your first session. Clinician seems nice enough, and you feel good about making a change and doing something active to address your difficulties. You maybe made some compromises in who you picked as a clinician, but still- this is better than nothing. Despite the clinician having to reschedule your next session, you get into a groove with them and you start to subjectively and objectively feel better.

[End story time]

The way I see, if we could skip right to the last part (meeting with a reasonably competent clinician, relatively quickly, in a manner that would be paid for by insurance, why wouldn't we. The stuff about location. security, HIPPA, etc., are just a red herring, and could be figured out just as easily in CVS as in our our offices (which, you might have noticed over the past year, are often the same as "the place we live"). The argument regarding inpatient care are an even bigger red herring, as that is not likely to be the population that the CVS clinic is set up to take (and you think my story about outpatient is long and convoluted, just you try to find an inpatient bed for a teenager).

Yes- easy and affordable access to a doctoral level clinician trained in a mentor-model, Boulder-model, training program might be better (the empirical jury is still out on that one), I'd also like to ride to my office on magical unicorn that poops gold coins and pees double IPAs and Imperial Stouts.

I find it interesting to see posts on other threads from the same posters who are de facto criticizing this model also recommending that new clinicians follow their lead and try to get to a point that they only need to deal with private pay clients. Some big issues with access to care there, don't ya think?
The CVS model might not, ultimately, be the best, but at least it's something.


*A rural/suburban area, but with multiple local social work and MHC training programs, as well as a Ph.D. clinical psych program and relatively decent public health system.

ETA after seeing Wisneuro's post above- the person my "story" was based on is not from an underserved community and, in fact comes from a relatively high SES, high-status group. Not high enough where paying $150 per week (after already paying hundreds per month for health insurance) is sustainable long term, but also no just scraping by.
 
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"So far, CVS' pilot program, which launched in January, operates in a dozen stores in Houston, Philadelphia and Tampa, Fla., with plans to expand to 34 this year. It's targeting diverse communities where mental health care isn't readily available, such as Jenkintown, Pa., just north of Philadelphia where Miller's barber shop is located."


Yeah, Jenkintown seems pretty hard up for therapists smh
 
"So far, CVS' pilot program, which launched in January, operates in a dozen stores in Houston, Philadelphia and Tampa, Fla., with plans to expand to 34 this year. It's targeting diverse communities where mental health care isn't readily available, such as Jenkintown, Pa., just north of Philadelphia where Miller's barber shop is located."


Yeah, Jenkintown seems pretty hard up for therapists smh

Depends on how long their waitlists are, do they accept insurance, etc. Also, in terms of things like underserved only having Medicare/Medicaid or other state assistance type payors, lot of people have opted out. For competent therapy services, and especially specialty services, I have a hard time getting referrals for some people depending on insurance situations.
 
A lot of your objections seem to assume this fantasy world where a person experiencing "difficulties" (maybe even meeting criteria for a depressive or anxiety disorder) can easily and quickly access adequate (not top-notch- but adequate) mental health care by simply picking up the phone and scheduling a visit next week with their local Psychologist/Health Services Provider. I accept that there might be regional differences, but this is how it works in my neck of the woods* (inspired by actual events!):

-You contact your insurance company (assume a standard HMO type group plan through your employee, with reasonable mental health benefits) for a list of providers, or you just do a web search for providers in your area
-If you have some knowledge of ESTs, you start to contact providers who's bios indicate experience with validated treatments for the "difficulties" in question, knocking off 50-75% of the providers on the list who say things like "expert in working with young children and the elderly" or "I integrate [non-validated, non-psychology nonsense] into my practice" or "I want to join you on your spiritual life journey of healing." If you have no knowledge of ESTs, you probably just start at the top of the list and work through it alphabetically (wow, Aadrian Aadleson LMHC, CAGS, ABCDEFG really has a busy practice!). In a list of 20 providers, there are maybe 2-3 doctoral level psychologists.
-10-20% of the numbers you call are either wrong or out of service. You leave messages at a dozen others (you think an actual person is going to answer the phone? How quaint!). Maybe half of them actually return your call. Of those, most say "sorry, no opening now. Have you tried calling [clinician who did not return your call]? Most of the rest have stopped directly accepting your insurance and require full payment at time of service, but are "pretty sure" you can submit your claim on your own and will probably get reimbursed.
-You finally speak with an actually person who will take your insurance and is accepting new clients. There are some things in their bio/training history you have to overlook, but hey, they actually called you back, accept your insurance, and have an opening!
-Turns out that opening is right smack in the middle of your work shift or school day! Oh well, you have some vacation/sick/personal time you can use, at least for a few weeks,(or it's ok to miss one day a week of 5th period AP Bio, but you'll have to make up that work on your own, at home, at night, alone, where your "difficulties" or seem to be most impactful and make it hard to concentrate.
-You get the approval from your boss/teacher to miss time (due to concerns about the stigma of mental health difficulties, you make up some story about why you need the time, both to tell your boss/teacher when asking permission, as well as to tell you coworkers/other students in your class when they ask why you aren't there). A month or two after you started looking, you go to your first session. Clinician seems nice enough, and you feel good about making a change and doing something active to address your difficulties. You maybe made some compromises in who you picked as a clinician, but still- this is better than nothing. Despite the clinician having to reschedule your next session, you get into a grove with them and you start to subjectively and objectively feel better.

[End story time]

The way I see, if we could skip right to the last part (meeting with a reasonably competent clinician, relatively quickly, in a manner that would be paid for by insurance, why wouldn't we. The stuff about location. security, HIPPA, etc., are just a red herring, and could be figured out just as easily in CVS as in our our offices (which, you might have noticed over the past year, are often the same as "the place we live"). The argument regarding inpatient care are an even bigger red herring, as that is not likely to be the population that the CVS clinic is set up to take (and you think my story about outpatient is long and convoluted, just you try to find an inpatient bed for a teenager).

Yes- easy and affordable access to a doctoral level clinician trained in a mentor-model, Boulder-model, training program might be better (the empirical jury is still out on that one), I'd also like to ride to my office on magical unicorn that poops gold coins and pees double IPAs and Imperial Stouts.

I find it interesting to see posts on other threads from the same posters who are de facto criticizing this model also recommending that new clinicians follow their lead and try to get to a point that they only need to deal with private pay clients. Some big issues with access to care there, don't ya think?
The CVS model might not, ultimately, be the best, but at least it's something.


*A rural/suburban area, but with multiple local social work and MHC training programs, as well as a Ph.D. clinical psych program and relatively decent public health system.

ETA after seeing Wisneuro's post above- the person my "story" was based on is not from an underserved community and, in fact comes from a relatively high SES, high-status group. Not high enough where paying $150 per week (after already paying hundreds per month for health insurance) is sustainable long term, but also no just scraping by.
Interesting point, and I appreciate the perspective and agree that PP isn’t equitable in terms of access to care at all.

I would add that covid-19 has also made equity in terms of access to services even more uneven in my area because therapists have been turning down clients even in cash pay practices. When I offer to refer folks to trusted colleagues, I’m not even certain if they have openings. Some folks I call back (to say I don’t work with x population, or take x insurance, etc.) say “thanks for getting back to me at least; I’ve called a bunch of people and very few return my calls.”

I can’t imagine the situation would be any better for folks from lower SES in community mental health right now. Who can afford the laptop and internet for telehealth and to meet in the middle of the day right now? Probably not someone from lower SES. White collar jobs are the ones you can do from home; the rest of folks aren’t so lucky.

So I too wonder if this model would be helpful somewhat to have some access as opposed to zero access. The middle to upper class is already getting a better standard of care than lower SES folks. Is this a bandaid on a bigger problem? Certainly. Would it be better than nothing? Perhaps.

For folks who are against this, the alternative is what? What’s another feasible solution that is easy to enact in the short-term to provide more equitable access to care? I don’t see a lot of pro bono work happening in PP....

I’m also curious—will these centers have well-trained clinicians? Will there be case management work alongside the therapy? I’d be interested to hear more.
 
Depends on how long their waitlists are, do they accept insurance, etc. Also, in terms of things like underserved only having Medicare/Medicaid or other state assistance type payors, lot of people have opted out. For competent therapy services, and especially specialty services, I have a hard time getting referrals for some people depending on insurance situations.

Seven pages of entries serving a town of 5k would imply to me that there are plenty of referrals to go around, but idk...it's certainly possible that they are all trying to recruit from the same insurance pool. I didn't play around enough with the filters to figure that out.

I think what irritated me more is the slight of hand in a narrative like this--as if it's the provider's fault that they don't accept insurance so companies have to get creative to provide equitable access rather than simply reimbursing at a competitive rate. I understand capitalism, but I think NPR should call it what it is. The piece was a commercial.
 
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Seven pages of entries serving a town of 5k would imply to me that there are plenty of referrals to go around, but idk...it's certainly possible that they are all trying to recruit from the same insurance pool. I didn't play around enough with the filters to figure that out.

I think what irritated me more is the slight of hand in a narrative like this--as if it's the provider's fault that they don't accept insurance so companies have to get creative to provide equitable access rather than simply reimbursing at a competitive rate. I understand capitalism, but I think NPR should call it what it is. The piece was a commercial.

I agree to an extent. I don't put this on providers at all. There are 2 insurances I won't take in my area, as they pay significantly below Medicare/Medicaid rates. I can't name another neuropsych colleague who does either. We shouldn't be forced to essentially break even to deliver services. When it comes down to it, it's the fault of the broken system, it shouldn't be a zero sum game between provider and patient.
 
I also appreciate ClinicalABA's point and let me be clear - this IS a difficult issue that needs to be addressed. I should note the comments on inpatient are based on things in the article itself. There is an actual quote from the CVS therapist literally implying services there can somehow help with that situation when I just don't see how that could possibly be the case. The article is also vague on multiple other factors. We've used the MinuteClinic before for something. I forget exactly what we had done, but it certainly wasn't any cheaper for us than a doctor's visit would have been. One therapist who takes walk-ins isn't exactly going to solve the access problem. Her bandwidth might be lower there than if she was in a traditional practice setting as I just don't see that setting filling a solid 7 hours of patients regardless of community need. All the other barriers to care (transportation, ability to attend regular treatment) would still exist. Frankly, I think we'd be much better off having a traditional social worker in that sort of setting able to provide service connection rather than providing treatment in-house, but CVS can't bill for that. Given all this, it also raises the question I've asked before about whether bad care is necessarily better than no care. Probably yes in some circumstances and no in others.

100% agree we have an access problem and need to innovate, I just can't possibly see how this does anything to solve that problem. I also sincerely doubt CVS is motivated by altruism.
 
As many of you, I am of two minds here. Access is great but the putative efficacy of this type of service is unknown. A few thoughts:

1. I do not think (and I am sure most will agree) that CVS is primarily looking to increase access for those that are underserved. They are looking to make money and if they can provide an additional service when you enter one of their branch locations (or get you to stop in for the first time), why not.

2. Hard to tell what type of service they are actually providing. Could just be a 15-minute talk and a list of referral providers (or an eventual referral to an in-house medication prescriber). Can't imagine weekly services for severe and persistent problems is the goal here.

3. I doubt this will tap into the traditional psychological treatment seeking population. I think these are in supposedly underserved communities b/c higher SES communities are much less likely to need or use this service.

It is an interesting experiment for them. I wonder how online companies like Better Help are doing. This is an interesting time to examine if large-scale, accessible, and affordable mental health services are doable.
 
I am in a profession, not a priesthood. Everyone deserves to be fairly paid for their services. Except for third party payors, the free market determines rates. Basic business principles indicate that you raise your rates until demand equalizes with your ability to meet it. If a provider charged $10/hr for psychotherapy, I would bet that they'd be unable to see everyone that wanted in. If a provider charged $1000/hr, I would bet that the provider would have trouble seeing one person per week. Psychotherapy rates have DECREASED. In 2001, CMS paid $102/hr. If that rate was kept steady with inflation, it should have paid $137/hr. Instead CMS paid$87/hr in 2015. Effectively, psychologist's buying power went down approximately 40% in 14 years. Most professions get cost of living increases. I do not think it is fair that we do not. This flows to employed positions, as your employer is also not getting paid more, and their overhead is increasing.

As to fairness in access, it is unfair to shift the blame to providers. Providers did not create employer policy, that prevents access to care. Providers are not responsible for the divorce between worker productivity and hourly wages, of which PTO is a tool. Providers did not write the contractual agreement between the patient and their insurance company. Providers did not create insurance reimbursement rates that are not reflective of free market rates, and would create financial hardships. I'm sorry people have been screwed over by all of those systems. But I did not enter into any agreements with those people, and it is not my responsibility to change based on the whims of a patient's employer. I'm not required to work until midnight, or live in a shack, just because it's what someone's employer or insurance company wants.

Caving into these demands is bad business for providers and bad care for patients.
 
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...

So I too wonder if this model would be helpful somewhat to have some access as opposed to zero access. ...
I do think there are some key things that would have to be in place for me to support such a model-
1) appropriately trained and credentialled therapists
2)abililty for the therapist to design and implement a treatment plan that met generally accepted standards of care.

If the plan is to throw less competent mid-levels or- especially- non-credentialled "therapists" at the problem with the attitude that, he, it's better than nothing so stop your complaining, then s***w them and the horse they rode in on. If, on the other hand, the plan is to offer the same quality of care that is currently available through standard outpatient models, but to do so in a manner that is more convenient and accessible, I don't see how you could argue against that.

Of course CVS wants to make money. They are traded on the NYSE, and as such do have an obligation to shareholders to increase the value of the company. I'm pretty sure that none of us work for free. Making money (including increasing share value) is not- necessarily incompatible with providing effective mental health service.

I've used CVS clinic for members of my family to get vaccinations and physical exams, and these services were provided by practitioners with appropriate training and credentialling, directly billing my insurance. I got these appointments within days, scheduled online, checked in at an electronic kiosk, and did some shopping while we waited to be seen. It would have taken a week or two to get the flu shots at our PCP, and the physical would have been months. That's a good model of care, if you ask me. Can it be done with mental health? It's certainly worth a shot, IMHO.
 
...Except for third party payors..
That's a HUUUGGGE qualifier right there. For better or worse (that's a whole separate thread😉) it removes the vast majority of us from the equation. You can say we SHOULD all be working in free market environment, but I'd guess most of us aren't (yes- I'm talking about you, VA providers) and are unlikely to be at any time in the near or distant future. I have a healthy practice and am reinforced appropriately, but haven't even sniffed a private pay client in years. I rarely even deal with a non-medicaid client.
 
Here's the thing that crossed my mind: what happens when these therapists start having more and more people come back for multiple sessions and no longer have access for new same-day patients? Unfortunately, you can't have both great access and great f/u care, and balancing both isn't easy--and since an experienced healthcare system like the VA can't seem to figure it out, I'm not sure how an organization new to mental healthcare will.
 
That's a HUUUGGGE qualifier right there. For better or worse (that's a whole separate thread😉) it removes the vast majority of us from the equation. You can say we SHOULD all be working in free market environment, but I'd guess most of us aren't (yes- I'm talking about you, VA providers) and are unlikely to be at any time in the near or distant future. I have a healthy practice and am reinforced appropriately, but haven't even sniffed a private pay client in years. I rarely even deal with a non-medicaid client.

Are you providing psychotherapy? Are you salaried by a third party payor?

All (literally) of the psychologists I've spoken to in my area who provide psychotherapy outside of a third party payor system (more than a dozen) have said that they either regret taking insurance because of the administrative burden or decided not to take insurance because of the administrative burden. From the sounds of it the math is that you need to 1.5x the amount of time/effort per insurance case, and you're already taking a fraction of the fee you would receive from private pay to be a preferred provider.

In my mind, one of the major problems with the availability of psychotherapy is that third party payors undervalue the service, so providers often don't bother to seek preferred provider status and instead stick to providing services to those who can afford private pay and let people on their caseload stick around for months or years (which is fair in some ways, given that there is evidence of the dose:response relationship for psychotherapy, and there's no obligation on the part of the therapist to terminate if the patient is continuing to benefit) which again negatively impacts access.

A random pie-in-the-sky though. I wonder what would happen if third party payors incentivized taking new cases, so that the first session with a patient is 2x fee, and it gradually declines over the next 20 down to the 1x fee, to incentivize time-limited services. Who knows.

To the original topic: This may be a lucrative model for CVS, but I don't imagine this will do much to move the needle on the burden of disease related to mental health problems.

Does anyone know the data on how training relates to quality of psychotherapeutic service? I know this is a topic that comes up frequently here.


EDIT:
Did a brief lit search on this topic. Came across some pretty spicy stuff from the 80s and 90s. Most notable quoted below.

Christensen, A., & Jacobson, N. S. (1994). Who (or what) can do psychotherapy: The status and challenge of nonprofessional therapies. Psychological Science, 5(1), 8–14. SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals

These meta-analyses of psychotherapy research suggest a substantial effect of psychotherapy compared with control conditions. Effect sizes range from 68 to 93. Yet none of the seven reviews described found evidence that professional training or therapist experience enhanced outcome. The later reviews often begin with a criticism of previous reviews and then try to improve on the methodology. Yet, whatever refinements are made, whatever studies are included or excluded, the results show either no differences between professionals and paraprofessionals or, surprisingly, differences that favor paraprofessionals.

 
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In my mind, one of the major problems with the availability of psychotherapy is that third party payors undervalue the service
Said it here before, I'll say it again. VBC is a big opportunity for behavioral health and I feel like we're letting it slide by unnoticed.

CMS (and already some of the bigger private) insurers are already beginning the process to gradually restructure away from the fee-for-service model that was never going to be work well for us financially (and quite frankly was a boneheaded way to approach healthcare in the first place). This seems an utterly massive opportunity for fields like ours, family/preventive medicine, etc. to essentially renegotiate our standing in the field. Tying reimbursement for expensive services to outcomes we help influence could get us a seat at tables we weren't allowed at previously. Shouldn't be news to anyone here that our patients tend to have crummy outcomes across the board. Mr/Mrs heart surgeon is going to be a lot more attentive to mental health if reimbursement drops 20% for every patient too depressed to exercise post-op. In fact, I'd think we are deserving of a reasonable cut of that 20%?

We're starting to have those conversations here, but I really don't see this being discussed in the broader field anywhere to the extent that it should be given we're looking at such a fundamental shift.
 
That's a HUUUGGGE qualifier right there. For better or worse (that's a whole separate thread😉) it removes the vast majority of us from the equation. You can say we SHOULD all be working in free market environment, but I'd guess most of us aren't (yes- I'm talking about you, VA providers) and are unlikely to be at any time in the near or distant future. I have a healthy practice and am reinforced appropriately, but haven't even sniffed a private pay client in years. I rarely even deal with a non-medicaid client.

You have a lot of qualifiers yourself. I thought we were discussing what should be. Is that limited to access?

But it doesn't matter, and it doesn't take people out of the equation. If demand exceeds supply, you raise prices until equilibrium is met. Your hypothetical showed a market where demand for services exceeded the market's ability to supply said services. That's exactly when you raise prices. You can raise prices through negotiation with third party payors, going out of network, taking cash, or many other means. Most state laws will force insurance companies to pay out of network providers, if their network cannot provide contractually obliged services. I don't know why someone would take a lower rate to appease an insurance company that makes billions in profit.

This works for employment too. Employers are motivated to make as much as possible off of employees. So you offer as little as the market will bear, and demand as much as your employees will bear. VA operates on this model. Medicaid operates on this model. Medicare has a variation on this. Even your hypothetical works on this model. Those salaries only exist because people will take them.
 
Said it here before, I'll say it again. VBC is a big opportunity for behavioral health and I feel like we're letting it slide by unnoticed.

CMS (and already some of the bigger private) insurers are already beginning the process to gradually restructure away from the fee-for-service model that was never going to be work well for us financially (and quite frankly was a boneheaded way to approach healthcare in the first place). This seems an utterly massive opportunity for fields like ours, family/preventive medicine, etc. to essentially renegotiate our standing in the field. Tying reimbursement for expensive services to outcomes we help influence could get us a seat at tables we weren't allowed at previously. Shouldn't be news to anyone here that our patients tend to have crummy outcomes across the board. Mr/Mrs heart surgeon is going to be a lot more attentive to mental health if reimbursement drops 20% for every patient too depressed to exercise post-op. In fact, I'd think we are deserving of a reasonable cut of that 20%?

We're starting to have those conversations here, but I really don't see this being discussed in the broader field anywhere to the extent that it should be given we're looking at such a fundamental shift.

Sorry Ollie, can you remind me what VBC is again?
 
Value based care
Yup.

Reasonable and simplified summary:

Wildly imperfect and will certainly be a mixed bag, but if we're reinventing anyways I'd rather we jump in and drive change than sit back and wait to see where oncology/surgery/etc. decide we fit in. It will certainly introduce other pressures on how we do things that will come with both pros and cons.

Oddly enough, I've heard more people with CMS and insurance companies talking about what opportunities this offers behavioral health than I have psychologists.
 
Yup.

Reasonable and simplified summary:

Wildly imperfect and will certainly be a mixed bag, but if we're reinventing anyways I'd rather we jump in and drive change than sit back and wait to see where oncology/surgery/etc. decide we fit in. It will certainly introduce other pressures on how we do things that will come with both pros and cons.

Oddly enough, I've heard more people with CMS and insurance companies talking about what opportunities this offers behavioral health than I have psychologists.

CVS will not be hiring psychologists for this. Or maybe you meant VBC?
 
CVS will not be hiring psychologists for this. Or maybe you meant VBC?
Sorry - yes that last post was in relation to VBC and broader issues of care access, not just CVS.
 
There are going to be some issues with CVS doing this and the least of them will be location of care. I and my wife have used the CVS minute clinic several times ( for vaccinations pre-travel, sinus infections, etc). Between us, we have walked away with 3 resumes of NPs looking for a new job at either of our respective companies. CVS does not let their pharmacists sit down or have a chair during their shifts. Given this history, how do you think this mental health initiative will go? My guess is not the highest quality care.

Regarding the larger issues, there are several problems in the larger mental health landscape that are hurting access. The low pay by third party payors is one, the lack of a clear appropriate pathway for one to become a therapist is another (every master's level program has its own issues with training, billing, and acceptance by third party payors; PsyD programs are too expensive; PhD programs are not meant to produce a sufficient volume of clinical healthcare providers), the increasing paperwork to get paid is yet another. There is not sufficient info in the article to understand how CVS plans to implement these clinics. If they plan to follow a traditional model, they may run into the same access problems as everyone else. If not, will their model run into legal and ethical issues? What is their plan for hospitalization and liability? As mentioned, the issues regarding time off and equity in accessing care during the day is another issue. Most of these issues are governmental and not scientific.

@ClinicalABA mentioned people not providing therapy in the free market system. I may have the most experience providing psychotherapy services to medicare/medicaid populations on this board. The reasons I jumped ship included declining reimbursements, increasing audits by third party payors, and poorly written billing codes that meant I spent as much time trying to figure out how to get reimbursed for services as actually providing the services. All of this reinforced providing poor quality care to way too many patients and spending most of your time on paperwork.

VBC may help, but it will only work if the reimbursements are shared equitably. I know a few pain docs whose idea of VBC was hiring the cheapest SW they could to check the box of addressing chronic pain issues in a holistic manner while keeping the injection mill going.
 
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Here's the thing that crossed my mind: what happens when these therapists start having more and more people come back for multiple sessions and no longer have access for new same-day patients? Unfortunately, you can't have both great access and great f/u care, and balancing both isn't easy--and since an experienced healthcare system like the VA can't seem to figure it out, I'm not sure how an organization new to mental healthcare will.
Are you providing psychotherapy? Are you salaried by a third party payor?

All (literally) of the psychologists I've spoken to in my area who provide psychotherapy outside of a third party payor system (more than a dozen) have said that they either regret taking insurance because of the administrative burden or decided not to take insurance because of the administrative burden. From the sounds of it the math is that you need to 1.5x the amount of time/effort per insurance case, and you're already taking a fraction of the fee you would receive from private pay to be a preferred provider.

In my mind, one of the major problems with the availability of psychotherapy is that third party payors undervalue the service, so providers often don't bother to seek preferred provider status and instead stick to providing services to those who can afford private pay and let people on their caseload stick around for months or years (which is fair in some ways, given that there is evidence of the dose:response relationship for psychotherapy, and there's no obligation on the part of the therapist to terminate if the patient is continuing to benefit) which again negatively impacts access.

A random pie-in-the-sky though. I wonder what would happen if third party payors incentivized taking new cases, so that the first session with a patient is 2x fee, and it gradually declines over the next 20 down to the 1x fee, to incentivize time-limited services. Who knows.

To the original topic: This may be a lucrative model for CVS, but I don't imagine this will do much to move the needle on the burden of disease related to mental health problems.

Does anyone know the data on how training relates to quality of psychotherapeutic service? I know this is a topic that comes up frequently here.


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Did a brief lit search on this topic. Came across some pretty spicy stuff from the 80s and 90s. Most notable quoted below.

Christensen, A., & Jacobson, N. S. (1994). Who (or what) can do psychotherapy: The status and challenge of nonprofessional therapies. Psychological Science, 5(1), 8–14. SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals

These meta-analyses of psychotherapy research suggest a substantial effect of psychotherapy compared with control conditions. Effect sizes range from 68 to 93. Yet none of the seven reviews described found evidence that professional training or therapist experience enhanced outcome. The later reviews often begin with a criticism of previous reviews and then try to improve on the methodology. Yet, whatever refinements are made, whatever studies are included or excluded, the results show either no differences between professionals and paraprofessionals or, surprisingly, differences that favor paraprofessionals.

You're right, this topic has been discussed frequently here and, as I recall, a couple of the most cogent criticisms of this literature are:

1) Outcome studies, by their very design, set out to create HOMOGENEITY of training of the protocol therapists with respect to implementing the specific protocol (e.g., cognitive therapy for depression) for the specific condition under study. They do not just randomly sample people from various backgrounds/levels of training (e.g., randomly selecting samples of MD's, PhD/PsyD's, MA's, and BA's) and then--without providing further training--assign them cases and track outcome. It is no surprise that all the therapists (with varying degrees and years of experience) who are specifically (and extensively) trained to implement a specific protocol for a specific condition (and whose tapes are pulled to rate them on adherence and competence vis a vis that protocol and the theoretical model upon which it is based) have similar outcomes in such studies.
2) Relatedly, I am not aware of any studies that have set out to, a priori, rigorously articulate and test specific assumptions regarding levels of 'therapist experience' and outcome...such studies might run into significant ethical hurdles.
 
There are going to be some issues with CVS doing this and the least of them will be location of care. I and my wife have used the CVS minute clinic several times ( for vaccinations pre-travel, sinus infections, etc). Between us, we have walked away with 3 resumes of NPs looking for a new job at either of our respective companies. CVS does not let their pharmacists sit down or have a chair during their shifts. Given this history, how do you think this mental health initiative will go? My guess is not the highest quality care.

Regarding the larger issues, there are several problems in the larger mental health landscape that are hurting access. The low pay by third party payors is one, the lack of a clear appropriate pathway for one to become a therapist is another (every master's level program has its own issues with training, billing, and acceptance by third party payors; PsyD programs are too expensive; PhD programs are not meant to produce a sufficient volume of clinical healthcare providers), the increasing paperwork to get paid is yet another. There is not sufficient info in the article to understand how CVS plans to implement these clinics. If they plan to follow a traditional model, they may run into the same access problems as everyone else. If not, will their model run into legal and ethical issues? What is their plan for hospitalization and liability? As mentioned, the issues regarding time off and equity in accessing care during the day is another issue. Most of these issues are governmental and not scientific.

@ClinicalABA mentioned people not providing therapy in the free market system. I may have the most experience providing psychotherapy services to medicare/medicaid populations on this board. The reasons I jumped ship included declining reimbursements, increasing audits by third party payors, and poorly written billing codes that meant I spent as much time trying to figure out how to get reimbursed for services as actually providing the services. All of this reinforced providing poor quality care to way too many patients and spending most of your time on paperwork.

VBC may help, but it will only work if the reimbursements are shared equitably. I know a few pain docs whose idea of VBC was hiring the cheapest SW they could to check the box of addressing chronic pain issues in a holistic manner while keeping the injection mill going.
You articulated this so much better than I did earlier in the thread. My comment that 'convenience' shouldn't be the highest value was not (as it might have been interpreted) an elitist expression along the lines of 'let them eat cake' toward lower SES or underserved individuals.

It was meant to express my opinion that there may be risks to over-valuing 'convenience' and neglecting other important values in care delivery such as ensuring competent providers, sufficient infrastructure to safely triage crises/suicidality, having an adequate physical setup to ensure privacy and prevent burnout (e.g., providers having to do therapy in a phone booth), etc.

It was also colored by my experience with outpatient psychotherapy at the VA where the clientele are afforded free psychotherapy (without even a co-pay) for life, with no charge/penalty for no-shows or last-minute cancellations, and the endless ability to simply reschedule another appointment. In my experience, this removes a great deal of the intrinsic motivation to take the session seriously, maintain focus on goals, stay on task, complete homework assignments, etc. and actually ends up interfering with progress in therapy. Think about our basic literature on cognitive dissonance.
 
You articulated this so much better than I did earlier in the thread. My comment that 'convenience' shouldn't be the highest value was not (as it might have been interpreted) an elitist expression along the lines of 'let them eat cake' toward lower SES or underserved individuals.

It was meant to express my opinion that there may be risks to over-valuing 'convenience' and neglecting other important values in care delivery such as ensuring competent providers, sufficient infrastructure to safely triage crises/suicidality, having an adequate physical setup to ensure privacy and prevent burnout (e.g., providers having to do therapy in a phone booth), etc.

It was also colored by my experience with outpatient psychotherapy at the VA where the clientele are afforded free psychotherapy (without even a co-pay) for life, with no charge/penalty for no-shows or last-minute cancellations, and the endless ability to simply reschedule another appointment. In my experience, this removes a great deal of the intrinsic motivation to take the session seriously, maintain focus on goals, stay on task, complete homework assignments, etc. and actually ends up interfering with progress in therapy. Think about our basic literature on cognitive dissonance.

Whatever happens, I doubt that this will be like the VA system. I have a feeling that it will be inadequate to deal with the complex issues that often burden low SES patients/communities and likely be time limited. I was discussing this topic with my wife over the weekend. She brings a different perspective as she works on the industry side of things. She pointed out that this service may work as a loss leader given that CVS is trying to find ways to get clients into their stores for wraparound services as the world shifts away from standalone pharmacies. I would not be surprised if CVS stores end up pushing into urgent care territory further and they give you an eval/dx, maybe 6 brief sessions of psychotherapy and psych meds prescribed by their NP (PC-MHI style). Get your therapy, psych meds prescribed, and pick up the prescription all under one roof in 1-2 hours.
 
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She pointed out that this service may work as a loss leader given that CVS is trying to find ways to get clients into their stores for wraparound services as the world shifts away from standalone pharmacies.
I wondered this (loss leader) as well, but I'm not sure I see it working - aren't loss leaders typically things that generate a high volume of customers relative to the cost? I'm not sure even a poorly paid therapist sees enough people to make the math work as a loss leader. Maybe if they're able to drastically mark up psych meds and other prescriptions common in our population? Access issues aside, I don't see this therapist having a line outside their door 10 hours a day.

Anyways, CVS certainly has people far more adept at thinking these things through than I am so maybe there is an avenue I wasn't thinking about. I'd genuinely love to hear the behind-closed-doors rationale for this one though.
 
I wondered this (loss leader) as well, but I'm not sure I see it working - aren't loss leaders typically things that generate a high volume of customers relative to the cost? I'm not sure even a poorly paid therapist sees enough people to make the math work as a loss leader. Maybe if they're able to drastically mark up psych meds and other prescriptions common in our population? Access issues aside, I don't see this therapist having a line outside their door 10 hours a day.

Anyways, CVS certainly has people far more adept at thinking these things through than I am so maybe there is an avenue I wasn't thinking about. I'd genuinely love to hear the behind-closed-doors rationale for this one though.
Having been to the minute clinic, how about the chips and drink you buy while waiting for your appt? The grocery items you pick up on the way out, the otc meds you need, the other medical issue you put off seeing the doctor for that you can get done? If you are taking Uber or the bus, you might as well get it all done there. Honestly I think it is more about survival and seeing what sticks right now, IMO. The foot traffic revenue added to all the other sources may help make them one of the few standing after all the other pharmacies fall and keep their foot print intact. Then they can increase the revenue streams as the only option in a geographic area.
 
Having been to the minute clinic, how about the chips and drink you buy while waiting for your appt? The grocery items you pick up on the way out, the otc meds you need, the other medical issue you put off seeing the doctor for that you can get done? If you are taking Uber or the bus, you might as well get it all done there. Honestly I think it is more about survival and seeing what sticks right now, IMO. The foot traffic revenue added to all the other sources may help make them one of the few standing after all the other pharmacies fall and keep their foot print intact. Then they can increase the revenue streams as the only option in a geographic area.
Could be grocery items. They do seem to have a very hefty markup on those compared to traditional grocers, so maybe that is enough to eek out a profit on this?

100% agreed that this is an experiment to see what sticks given the broader economics surrounding pharmacies right now. Even putting aside my professional concerns I'd bet 5 to 1 against this sticking in the locations its being tried and 20 to 1 against this ever becoming widespread, but time will tell. I think this foray is misguided on their part from both a healthcare and a business standpoint (for interwoven reasons), but maybe they will surprise me.
 
CVS job posting

It sounds like a lot of case management and health psych designed to push their other services in HealthHub than a lot of long-term mental health. Skills mentioned are very PC-MHI (problem-solving therapy, motivational interviewing, CBT).

I kind of want to apply to see how terrible the salary is.

EDIT: No affiliation with CVS or the job posting, obviously.
 
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Oddly enough, I know that area very well and it is in absolutely no conceivable way poor, underserved or with limited access to care. Public transit is awful there so I'd bet virtually anyone going to that CVS drove themselves.

They could have gone a few thruway stops in any direction and done a better job hitting that mark. So we're actually looking more at boutique care for convenience (which works for minute clinic but I don't think will work for mental health where an ongoing relationship is more of a component) or insurance-subsidized friendship for lonely retirees. Hadn't considered the latter before but....maybe that is an actual target market?
 
Oddly enough, I know that area very well and it is in absolutely no conceivable way poor, underserved or with limited access to care. Public transit is awful there so I'd bet virtually anyone going to that CVS drove themselves.

They could have gone a few thruway stops in any direction and done a better job hitting that mark. So we're actually looking more at boutique care for convenience (which works for minute clinic but I don't think will work for mental health where an ongoing relationship is more of a component) or insurance-subsidized friendship for lonely retirees. Hadn't considered the latter before but....maybe that is an actual target market?

Better not be, that is my bread and butter. 😉🤣
 
So we're actually looking more at boutique care for convenience (which works for minute clinic but I don't think will work for mental health where an ongoing relationship is more of a component) or insurance-subsidized friendship for lonely retirees. Hadn't considered the latter before but....maybe that is an actual target market?
I've been told by private practitioners in my area (everything from master's level to PhD) that they are totally booked out with full caseloads and they're getting 10+ new contacts per week looking for a therapist.
If this is a "boutique" market, I wonder if the business decision behind this CVS program is based on the massive imbalance between supply and demand even in more well-resourced communities. An imbalance that is likely to get worse before it gets better now that there has been increased awareness about mental health and increased stressors in context of the pandemic.
 
I've been told by private practitioners in my area (everything from master's level to PhD) that they are totally booked out with full caseloads and they're getting 10+ new contacts per week looking for a therapist.
If this is a "boutique" market, I wonder if the business decision behind this CVS program is based on the massive imbalance between supply and demand even in more well-resourced communities. An imbalance that is likely to get worse before it gets better now that there has been increased awareness about mental health and increased stressors in context of the pandemic.

CVS had their quarterly earnings call this morning and mentioned this access issue since the pandemic started. From the call, the idea to do this stemmed from the pandemic and the pilot program seems to be largely focused on Aetna clients as CVS owns Aetna. I guess this is a way to funnel more money back into their own coffers and meet a need. They are also piloting sleep apnea testing and some other services as part of their health hub.
 
CVS had their quarterly earnings call this morning and mentioned this access issue since the pandemic started. From the call, the idea to do this stemmed from the pandemic and the pilot program seems to be largely focused on Aetna clients as CVS owns Aetna. I guess this is a way to funnel more money back into their own coffers and meet a need. They are also piloting sleep apnea testing and some other services as part of their health hub.

Now here's something I can get on board with. Sooooooo many of my patients with probable unevaluated/untreated sleep apnea for decades.
 
Now here's something I can get on board with. Sooooooo many of my patients with probable unevaluated/untreated sleep apnea for decades.
Seconded. There's increasing awareness of sleep apnea and the need to test for it, but I suspect it's still substantially undiagnosed.

And even in cases where it's diagnosed, I'd say probably the majority (or at least a sizable minority) of patients I see are inconsistently adherent or just entirely non-adherent with their prescribed airway pressure device. CVS could probably provide a service more beneficial and suitable to brief interventions by identifying and treating resistance to CPAP/BiPAP/APAP use.
 
Seconded. There's increasing awareness of sleep apnea and the need to test for it, but I suspect it's still substantially undiagnosed.

And even in cases where it's diagnosed, I'd say probably the majority (or at least a sizable minority) of patients I see are inconsistently adherent or just entirely non-adherent with their prescribed airway pressure device. CVS could probably provide a service more beneficial and suitable to brief interventions by identifying and treating resistance to CPAP/BiPAP/APAP use.
'My last VA job actually had a sleep apnea clinic that would troubleshoot adherence issues. All the way from issues of fit (new masks, or refitting of old ones) to anxiety about wearing the mask (usually exposure therapy). Fairly popular clinic there.
 
'My last VA job actually had a sleep apnea clinic that would troubleshoot adherence issues. All the way from issues of fit (new masks, or refitting of old ones) to anxiety about wearing the mask (usually exposure therapy). Fairly popular clinic there.
This, multidisciplinary diabetes psychoeducation/adherence, and MOVE! groups could probably keep health psychologists employed indefinitely.
 
Now here's something I can get on board with. Sooooooo many of my patients with probable unevaluated/untreated sleep apnea for decades.

Oh dear god if they can get my patients in for sleep studies in under three months from when I order them I will throw them a parade
 
Oh dear god if they can get my patients in for sleep studies in under three months from when I order them I will throw them a parade

Yeah, and a few of the sleep clinics around here have closed down, so it's even worse than usual. I also think people may be more willing to get an eval through CVS/Walgreens. This and proper hearing evals/HAs would be the highest yield interventions for many of my patients.
 
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