D.D.S/Ph.D

[ucla2134]

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Do you guys know any information about joint program D.D.S/PhD
Thanks to my mentor, i cannot go to D.D.S like you guys

 

[blankguy]

Here's the DDS/PhD at Buffalo. http://www.sdm.buffalo.edu/programs/postgrad/ddsphd.html

 

[ucla2134]

8 years omfg, it sucks so bad

 

[TempleDMDKrazd]

Do you guys know any information about joint program D.D.S/PhD
Thanks to my mentor, i cannot go to D.D.S like you guys

what do you mean you cant go to the DDS/DMD like us? What did your mentor do?

 

[ucla2134]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=507904

After talking to him, unless i go to D.D.S/Ph.D, he will not grant me as co-author on the publish paper and letter of recommendation.
Yub, my life suckssssssssssssssssssss

 

[armorshell]

What an *******. Get a letter of rec from someone else, preferably this guys rival. Or just give him a talking to, along the lines of "I'm not wasting 4 years of my life for you to put my name on a paper no one will ever read."

Oh apparently this is your crazy idea to appease him. Just tell him what your goals are, it's not worth wasting 4 YEARS OF YOUR LIFE for a recommendation letter, and the aforementioned paper no one will read.

 

[Regmata]

The only reason to get the phd is if you want to go into academic dentistry or I suppose maybe for a dental research position in the corporate world (although i don't think it is necessary). It is a lot of work and may not be of any benefit to you besides your name on this one paper.

Btw, UB may be getting rid of the combined program due to a lack of interest and an inability of students to actually complete it.

 

[SugarNaCl]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=507904

After talking to him, unless i go to D.D.S/Ph.D, he will not grant me as co-author on the publish paper and letter of recommendation.
Yub, my life suckssssssssssssssssssss

Ok, as someone with 3 publications for research in an MS program and in clinical cancer research for 3 years, I can tell you that IT IS NOT WORTH IT! First off, if you did not come up with the idea, or some of the ideas for the publication, you unfortunately have no technical right to be on it. Some people are cool about letting their assistants who ran the experiments on their pubs, some aren't. It is NOT worth wasting 3-4 extra years... UNLESS you WANT to go into research when you get out of dental school.

If you don't want to do research down the road, this is a waste of time for you. Get a different letter of rec. Your stats are probably much more important anyway. If you want to go into research, then the DDS/PhD route is best anyway. Good luck.

 

[blankguy]

The only reason to get the phd is if you want to go into academic dentistry or I suppose maybe for a dental research position in the corporate world (although i don't think it is necessary). It is a lot of work and may not be of any benefit to you besides your name on this one paper.

Btw, UB may be getting rid of the combined program due to a lack of interest and an inability of students to actually complete it.

Wouldn't surprise me. You in effect can do the same thing with a Masters. A lot of faculty members have DDS/DMD and masters. What is the point of PhD if Masters is considered sufficient to be a researcher in dentistry? I am thinking of going for a Masters eventually.

 

[SugarNaCl]

Wouldn't surprise me. You in effect can do the same thing with a Masters. A lot of faculty members have DDS/DMD and masters. What is the point of PhD if Masters is considered sufficient to be a researcher in dentistry? I am thinking of going for a Masters eventually.

I could be completely off here, but many times when people have an MS after their DDS/DMD title, that means that they have gone on and gotten their certificate in a dental specialty. I do believe DDS/PhD programs are different often.

1. You don't even need an MS to apply for many grants. All you need is the DDS/DMD degree...of course it depends on what you want to research I'm sure.

2. DDS/PhD I believe is often in a branch of related science such as Immunology or Microbiology... not NECESSARILY (though it can be) in periodontics, orthodontics etc.

I received my MS in Neuroimmunology before even applying for dental school and I'm not sure that would be a benefit overall over someone with just a DDS/DMD degree.

 

[blankguy]

I could be completely off here, but many times when people have an MS after their DDS/DMD title, that means that they have gone on and gotten their certificate in a dental specialty. I do believe DDS/PhD programs are different often.

1. You don't even need an MS to apply for many grants. All you need is the DDS/DMD degree...of course it depends on what you want to research I'm sure.

2. DDS/PhD I believe is often in a branch of related science such as Immunology or Microbiology... not NECESSARILY (though it can be) in periodontics, orthodontics etc.

I received my MS in Neuroimmunology before even applying for dental school and I'm not sure that would be a benefit overall over someone with just a DDS/DMD degree.

You don't have to go the PhD route. It seems that Masters is an academic degree in dentistry. In fact most of the faculty get by with masters. Sure some of them have gone on to postdoctoral programs but they can act as general dentists i.e. prosthodontist with MS. I think if you wanted to go into academia it is advisable to at least get a masters however people with just DMD/DDS work in faculty but if you are looking for research a Masters will probably give you better qualifications. You could be right on the PhD, if you are looking to do more basic science research that could do it.

 

[JMJRDH1]

Do you guys know any information about joint program D.D.S/PhD
Thanks to my mentor, i cannot go to D.D.S like you guys

My question is, what does he have to gain by you completing the DDS/PhD degree?

This guy sounds like a real piece of work, tell him to take his LOR and shove it!

 

[Logjammin]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=507904

After talking to him, unless i go to D.D.S/Ph.D, he will not grant me as co-author on the publish paper and letter of recommendation.
Yub, my life suckssssssssssssssssssss

Firstly, tell your "mentor" to fist himeself.

You probably don't want a rec letter from someone like this guy anyways. Secondly, do you actually want to go into academic dentistry/research or do you want to go to dental school to be a dentist?

If you answer to this question is the latter, then you would be a fool to spend 3/4 years getting your P.h.D. Find someone else to write you a letter of rec, or report this idiot for using you as a student bitch for research.

 

[blankguy]

Looks like his mentor was feeling that he got burnt by the OP for wanting to switch careers.

 

[armorshell]

Guys, read the other thread. He hasn't even told his mentor yet, this is just his wacky idea to "sneak" a DDS degree under his mentor's nose without causing a confrontation or something.

 

[Shunwei]

Guys, read the other thread. He hasn't even told his mentor yet, this is just his wacky idea to "sneak" a DDS degree under his mentor's nose without causing a confrontation or something.

The other thread was from two days ago. I do believe the OP has gone and discussed this with his/her PI. It does not surprise me at all that he/she was met with animosity on this, because folks in research tend to snub their noses at those who want to leave, for whatever reason. My thesis mentor was not happy with me when I told him I wanted to leave the field, but I couldn't care less what he thinks since it is my own life. At least for me he had the sense of putting any ill feelings between just the two of us and not on paper.

For the OP, I think that appeasing your PI by sacrificing 4 years of your life is of questionable merit. I'd also be very careful of whether you want to trust this guy at all now, since he has appeared to be totally lacking in understanding. Consider whether you want to switch labs to gain another reference. Or perhaps you can just bar this PI from your reference altogether.

 

[ucla2134]

My mentor is not that bad. I guess he just really attached to science and he felt that i betrayed him.
I hope for several next weeks, he would cool down and reconsider my situation.
Right now, i do not know what to decide. I feel all my 1.5 years spending time doing all the immunnohistochemistry, analyzing data is pretty much down the drain.
Thanks guys for all the support. You guys are really great.

 

[laundry]

My mentor is not that bad. I guess he just really attached to science and he felt that i betrayed him.
I hope for several next weeks, he would cool down and reconsider my situation.
Right now, i do not know what to decide. I feel all my 1.5 years spending time doing all the immunnohistochemistry, analyzing data is pretty much down the drain.
Thanks guys for all the support. You guys are really great.

hey man, that just ain't right. That "mentor" won't go far with such ethics...But DDS/PhD is a great program if you're interested in research/academia. But I wouldn't do a PhD under that dude. Think about what an ******* he's gonna be for the next 7 years of your life.

 

[dr bojangles]

don't waste your time/money on an extra doctoral degree that you don't want to pursue just because you want to be nice and not burn bridges with this horse's a$$. like shunwei said, just be honest and tell him.
assuming he has an accredited doctorate himself, he should be smart enough to know that a phd is not necessary to do research. a dmd is still a qualified professional science degree, so you can still do basic science research (albeit, you're trained better as a clinician than a scientist). i'm getting the feeling maybe your PI is still bitter from being rejected from med/dent.
good luck

 

[SugarNaCl]

You don't have to go the PhD route. It seems that Masters is an academic degree in dentistry. In fact most of the faculty get by with masters. Sure some of them have gone on to postdoctoral programs but they can act as general dentists i.e. prosthodontist with MS. I think if you wanted to go into academia it is advisable to at least get a masters however people with just DMD/DDS work in faculty but if you are looking for research a Masters will probably give you better qualifications. You could be right on the PhD, if you are looking to do more basic science research that could do it.

😕 I don't think you read my post before you responded. 😉

 

[blankguy]

😕 I don't think you read my post before you responded. 😉

All I wanted to say, is that it seems based on dealing with people in academia, a masters is an academic degree which defeats the purpose of getting a PhD.
If you wanted to be in academia a masters will do. Sure you could get into academia with just a DMD/DDS but it is apparent to me that getting a masters will come in handy.

 

[smiley007]

spending an extra 4 years for the D.D.S./Ph.d. program doing what you don't want to do doesn't sound like it's worth it. a publication would be good for your application, but that isn't a requirement. you can still get into a good dental school without it. as for the letter of rec..just get another one. let someone who really wants to be in and will enjoy being in the D.D.S./Ph.d. program have the spot. you can still put down that you did the research and the publication is in progress.

 

[jackbauer!]

I sort of went through the same situation.

I worked in a research lab for a year and a half as an undergrad and my PI thought I was going the PhD route up until I asked for a LOR for dental school during my last month. It was very tough to ask, but I sucked it up and got my letter.

As long as you have worked hard, I can't imagine your PI not writing you a letter regardless of how bitter he/she may be.

jb!🙂

 

[Aceofspades]

I was under the impression that a DDS/PHD program takes 8 years to complete (4 yrs dental school, 4 years PHD) but PAYS FOR EVERYTHING. You even get a monthly stipend I believe. It seems like everybody applying to dental school just loves research, so it's surprising that people aren't applying in droves to these programs. Many people would rather sign up for the army and do 4 years of dental school followed by 4 years of active duty rather than do the DDS/PHD route. What happened to the love for research?

 

[Shunwei]

I was under the impression that a DDS/PHD program takes 8 years to complete (4 yrs dental school, 4 years PHD) but PAYS FOR EVERYTHING. You even get a monthly stipend I believe. It seems like everybody applying to dental school just loves research, so it's surprising that people aren't applying in droves to these programs. Many people would rather sign up for the army and do 4 years of dental school followed by 4 years of active duty rather than do the DDS/PHD route. What happened to the love for research?

There are many flaws with you are saying. First of all, not everyone who goes to dental school loves research. There are plenty of folks on SDN who have said flat out that research is not for them, and there is nothing wrong with that. Secondly, although I am not sure if the DDS/PhD programs do indeed pay for the whole thing, you have to realize the opportunity cost involved; not only will you lost four precious years of your life slaving away in a lab on a welfare-level stipend, but the fact that a PhD will predispose you to an academic career path means further loss of income potential. Finally, for anyone out there interested in a PhD, they have to have a good understanding of the nature of research. The uncertainty, frustration, low pay, academic politics, are all factors to be weighed in. Do not be lured into the combined degree just because it appears like a good financial "deal." It really isn't.

 

[golfer]

I was under the impression that a DDS/PHD program takes 8 years to complete (4 yrs dental school, 4 years PHD) but PAYS FOR EVERYTHING. You even get a monthly stipend I believe. It seems like everybody applying to dental school just loves research, so it's surprising that people aren't applying in droves to these programs. Many people would rather sign up for the army and do 4 years of dental school followed by 4 years of active duty rather than do the DDS/PHD route. What happened to the love for research?

Pays for everything??? Well I guess today is April fools day.👍

 

[SHC1984]

Well, I have heard a few people say that getting a PhD is free, (therefore pays for everything...) But I was never sure WHY? or how that works? if its free then won't everyone do it?? How come PhD is free but not MD or DDS???? Sorry I am just curious... 😕

 

[blankguy]

Well, I have heard a few people say that getting a PhD is free, (therefore pays for everything...) But I was never sure WHY? or how that works? if its free then won't everyone do it?? 😕

Not really. There is a price to pay in terms of time it takes to get a PhD.
From what I heard because you are 'it' as a PhD candidate schools will give you help you out financially unlike masters degree candidates in a lot of fields like Physics, Chemistry, etc... You are an up and coming researchers a very exclusive club so they will help you. But asking for 4 additional years in addition to 4 yrs to get a DDS will be a bit much for most people especially when there is not appreciable jump in earning potential associated as in Oral and Maxillofacial surgery.

 

[dds72128]

Not really. There is a price to pay in terms of time it takes to get a PhD.
From what I heard because you are 'it' as a PhD candidate schools will give you help you out financially unlike masters degree candidates in a lot of fields like Physics, Chemistry, etc... You are an up and coming researchers a very exclusive club so they will help you. But asking for 4 additional years in addition to 4 yrs to get a DDS will be a bit much for most people especially when there is not appreciable jump in earning potential associated as in Oral and Maxillofacial surgery.

i would definitely check w/ each school that has a dmd/phd program. what i have heard is that many will pay stipends to the students when they're doing the phd part of the program, because you'll be doing research and publishing papers for the school. however, whether or not they will waive the dmd tuition and how much they will waive is definitely going to depend on the individual schools.

also, just to point something out: when you're doing the phd part of the program, you won't be able to practice clinically, because you simply won't have the time and/or energy. therefore, after all that you have learned clinically during your 4yr dmd program, you can't put it into practice. another 4yrs later, after you come out of the phd part of the program, and when you want to pick up clinical work again... things might be a little rusty, you know?

anyway, just my two-cent. i think it's a wonderful program for ppl who are interested in research/academia. the other program to consider is the specialty/phd program, like ortho/phd, if you want to do research. but again, it's got the same disadvantage in terms of clinical experiences that i just mentioned.

best of luck w/ your mentor and dental school!

 

[doc toothache]

A DDS/PhD does give you some options. You will have plenty of time to decide what direction you want to go once it is all said and done.

 

[scuzfly]

I sort of went through the same situation.

I worked in a research lab for a year and a half as an undergrad and my PI thought I was going the PhD route up until I asked for a LOR for dental school during my last month. It was very tough to ask, but I sucked it up and got my letter.

As long as you have worked hard, I can't imagine your PI not writing you a letter regardless of how bitter he/she may be.

jb!🙂

This is what it comes down to. While some PI will want you to go into research because you showed them you are good at it they shouldn't deny giving you a letter because of your career choice. Maybe you like the little research you did but couldn't see yourself doing it for life. I know I can't. I thought I could but I think I'd be better teaching the principles than doing the research. I don't want to write grants for life.

 

[bluejellybelly]

It's funny, because I've known PIs and my very own PI ONLY offered research internships if you were bound for a PhD program. I chose it 3 years back because I literally exposed myself to every field of science and I liked the idea of academia a lot. The actual research protocol (wet bench) wasn't bad either. The grant-writing thing, that wasn't my thing.... I never told my PI my intentions in terms of careers but I never bothered to ask for a letter anyway. I know one too many PIs that get so cynical when you reveal that you're not exactly getting a PhD. 🙄

 

[doc3232]

Do you guys know any information about joint program D.D.S/PhD
Thanks to my mentor, i cannot go to D.D.S like you guys

Ummmm, Your going to base your career choice on what another person makes you do? Is the publication worth it, who said it will get you into D-school anyway? Maybe I misunderstood something.

 

[dr bojangles]

i have been considering a dmd/phd, and from what i've found its not free. besides what shunwei and others said about lost opportunity cost and a stipend only for the phd years, i found that most programs are somewhat underfunded. there is not a lot of money going to perio, oral bio, etc. research, unless you're at NIDCR or something. regardless, you will get something during your phd years, if not the dds years as well. but if you don't like it, why pursue it?

 

[Shunwei]

i have been considering a dmd/phd, and from what i've found its not free. besides what shunwei and others said about lost opportunity cost and a stipend only for the phd years, i found that most programs are somewhat underfunded. there is not a lot of money going to perio, oral bio, etc. research, unless you're at NIDCR or something. regardless, you will get something during your phd years, if not the dds years as well. but if you don't like it, why pursue it?

Now I think about it, I am pretty sure that a school will not waive its hefty tuition in a joint program. However, I am fairly certain that you will get a subsistence stipend for your PhD work, probably around normal grad school level nowadays like 23k/yr.

I strongly advise people to think clearly and have a definite committment before they do this. Don't approach a PhD with a vague idea of what you want or if someone tells you to do so--instead, given the time committment, opportunity cost, and the career slant of the degree, be firm about what you expect and want out of the degree. There are many people who can do research and are good in it; however, to make it a career, my impression is that research requires a very special personality (it's not a good/bad kind of thing, just a particulary sort of individual). It's definitely not for everyone.

 

[laundry]

It depends on the school. UCSF has great NIH funding and the DDS/PhD students get tuition paid on top of the stipend+supplies $$ totaling about 27K/year.

At my PhD interview at UCSF we had a meeting with current students and they all say the same thing - don't worry, you're taken care of. Some even say they have money accumulating cause they don't have time to spend all of the stipend.

But don't do a PhD just because you want a tuition break. It'll be hell.