D.O. or Caribbean?

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OSUdoc08 said:
M.D.'s cannot participate in osteopathic residencies. D.O.'s can participate in both osteopathic and allopathic residencies. If there is such a competitive specialty that doesn't appreciate the philosophy of osteopathic medicine (which is not likely at least in my part of the world, where D.O.'s are found in practically all residencies and at all hospitals), that specialty will be available as an osteopathic residency. Therefore, no specialty opportunity will be limitied.

You fail to mention that DO specialty spots are severely limited. Examples of the number of DO residency spots available each year:
Derm: 18
Ophtho: 12
Urology: 2
Neurology: 8
Rads: 21
Anesthesia:16
 
secondly, texas is not a problem for AUC. i have another collegue practicing in san antonio. texas tried to make it harder for taking IMG's because they added a clause that any med school has to have an ongoing research program. that eliminates many of the unreputable schools.

Again, your information is only partially true. The state of Texas is reviewing your class setup and structure to make certain is is comparable with that of Texas medical schools. Sadly, it is a form of discrimination. They are examining the labs, rotation setup...everything. Considering that AUC has been cited in the past for flaws with their program, I would be nervous. Of course, there are current AUC docs practicing in the state of Texas. The issue concerns new Carib students rotating, doing residency and practicing in Texas which includes St. George, Ross and AUC students.

now for the USMLE scores. AUC's admissions requirements are now getting higher. they require MCAT scores hovering in the low to mid twenties. this is for their most recent classes although there are exceptions like in all schools. now ill admit in the past they took students who had no business being in medical school. hence you have lower USMLE scores in the low 80 pass rate. that is changing and i am a part of the AUC alumni network and get up to date with all school news. standards are increasing in the the big 3 and more people are getting rejected than ever. now the smaller schools are a different story.

Your board scores used to be in the high 70's, only recently did they hit the low 80's. They may be getting higher but they are still lower than DO and M.D. schools. If you are going to discuss how well AUC prepares students for the boards, it might be nice of you to not leave out pertinent information like their board passing rate. Also, please tell everyone how AUC until recently didn't even require the MCAT. It might also be nice to share with everyone that your students spend on average 3 entire months outside of class prepping for the USMLE which is two months more than U.S. M.D. and DO students.

in summation, i think you should do just a tad more research on this topic before you blab some absudity. it will make you look better as well as the DO profession which is very reputable.

Absurd? Listen friend, you are the one who intentionally left out information to try and prove a point. Nothing is more absurd than you boasting about how well you school preps for the boards and then not telling us that your board pass rate is in the low 80's. It's sad that I had to raise that point before you could admit it. You also failed to tell us how just 2 years ago, AUC didn't even require the MCAT. And your information about Texas is incomplete as well. Also, you never contradicted the point I made about AUC grads taking 3-6 months to prep for the boards and that is because it's true. Sad, your students spend all that time studying for the USMLE and their pass rate is still in the low 80's which is nearly 10% lower than even the worst DO schools.

Next time you discuss AUC, try not conveniently leave out facts like it's board passage rate. Otherwise, people like me will do it for you and make you lose credibility.
 
DireWolf said:
You fail to mention that DO specialty spots are severely limited. Examples of the number of DO residency spots available each year:
Derm: 18
Ophtho: 12
Urology: 2
Neurology: 8
Rads: 21
Anesthesia:16

You fail to mention that the number of DO grads are also limited. There are only 20 DO schools. There are over 6 times as many M.D. schools. We have plenty of DO students who match in anesthesia so that isn't an issue. Many DO's also match into allo rads. The other fields are admittedly tough for a DO. Usually one to two DO's match into allo derm, optho, urology and neurosurgery every year.
 
azcomdiddy said:
You fail to mention that the number of DO grads are also limited. There are only 20 DO schools. There are over 6 times as many M.D. schools. We have plenty of DO students who match in anesthesia so that isn't an issue. Many DO's also match into allo rads. The other fields are admittedly tough for a DO. Usually one to two DO's match into allo derm, optho, urology and neurosurgery every year.

My point is that the number of specialty spots for DOs is still severely lacking. Even though we only have 3100 grads each year, we still need more spots. That is why DO students are forced to look at ACGME (not to mention quality issues).

You can't honestly say that 12 ophtho, 21 rads spots, etc. are enough.
 
DireWolf said:
My point is that the number of specialty spots for DOs is still severely lacking. Even though we only have 3100 grads each year, we still need more spots. That is why DO students are forced to look at ACGME (not to mention quality issues).

You can't honestly say that 12 ophtho, 21 rads spots, etc. are enough.

It's definitely not enough and you are right, we need to do more about this especially with the emergence of new schools.

But you have to remember that the overwhelming majority of DO's WANT to go into primary care. At AZCOM, we had something like 20 students graduate in the top 10 percent of the class last year. It was astonishing because 13-14 of those students went into a primary care fields. If you look at any M.D. class, the top 10% nearly all specialize. DO students who finish in the top 10-20 percent of their class with competitive board scores don't have trouble matching in their chosen field. But I do know FMG's who cracked a 250 on the USMLE and still didn't match in their surgical subspecialty.

There are a lot of reasons for this but I think age plays a major factor. DO schools tend to have older students than M.D. schools. AZCOM has its fair share of students that are starting at the age 28 or older. Most of these students don't want to go into surgery or spend 3 years doing internal medicine and then doing 2-3 years with a fellowship. These older students want to be done in 7 years which is why you will see many AZCOM students go into family, peds, emergency medicine, or anasthesia. M.D. schools have their fair share of 22 year olds that have their entire lives ahead of them and don't mind doing a lengthy residency. Students that I knew at AZCOM didn't have trouble getting what they wanted if they were competitive.
 
Well, Texas does NOT ban Ross, SGU, or AUC grads from getting a lisence. There is no law that says "No Ross Grads Please".

The only thing is that you have to prove "substansial equivalence" to Texas med schools. Currently, they are considering applications "on a case by case bases", until "the confusion" gets solved.

Ross is currently working with the Texas Medical Board to solve this problem.

If you have any questions regarding this issue, please e-mail the Texas Board at:

[email protected]
 
DireWolf said:
My point is that the number of specialty spots for DOs is still severely lacking. Even though we only have 3100 grads each year, we still need more spots. That is why DO students are forced to look at ACGME (not to mention quality issues).

You can't honestly say that 12 ophtho, 21 rads spots, etc. are enough.
We don't need no stinkin' osteopathic "affirmative action". +pissed+
You don't see FMGs beggin for FMG-only derm and rads residencies.

To anyone who's still reading this thread searching for DO vs. US FMG re: the allopathic match check out the numbers yourself on page 3. Keep in mind a large percentage of DOs do not participate in this match, thus the overall percentage of DOs that match is higher than stated when the osteopathic match results are also included.

*I am in no way "Anti-FMG". I'm just saying, if you have the choice, the D.O. route is the path of least resistance. 🙂
 
this thread has turned into a urinating contest. azcomdiddy, you act as if i am telling people to go to FMG before DO. what i am saying is that if somebody does not like the DO behind their name, there are options. yes competitive specialties will be tough. you seem to have many "friends" that went to AUC. im gonna give you the benefit of the doubt that they are not imaginary. you may want to ask them WHY they took so long to study. students from AUC decide when they want to take the USMLE. i took it in january after i finished basics in the middle of december. then i went on to clinicals starting in march. yes some people chose to study for 3 months. i wouldnt condone it because sometimes you will miss the match deadline if you start clinicals later. then you would have to wait another year.

now as far as matching in competitive specialties, it is hard being an IMG. but as far as surgery, i think you should do a little more research on that. in every class, there are about 3-4 that match in it with another 1 or 2 doing prelim. not many considering each class is anywhere from 80 to 150 students. however, most did not go for surgery. we had many older students (i.e. DC, RN's, NP's, PA) that wanted to go for primary care.

now i would go and do a little more research on texas. you are not going to believe an alum so go email the AUC or texas state board and hear it for yourself. if talking to texas, ask about AUC specificaly. many foreign schools are scams and texas may think you are talking about one of them. so be specific.

now, since you only read what you want, at NO point did i say go FMG MD over DO. i only told those who were uneasy with being a DO to do so. i also said only do it if you are not too keen on going for competitve residencies.

i can see your whole agenda is to taint FMG's just as some american MDs have an agenda to taint DO's. i do think this should stop. a doctor is a doctor. i think the USMLE or COMLEX scores should speak for themself. remember to that US MD, DO, and FMG MD do their clinicals along side eachother getting the same education those last two years. residency is a mix as well.

other than the lifestyle of where you study your books (although st maarten wasnt to shabby), your education is the same if you went to a reputable school. a book is a book. we all learn from the same books. we all get tested on the same material. if some people do bad on the USMLEs from foreign schools then it is there fault. from al least comparing the US school 1st semester to the AUC 1st semester, not much different. although i did like that my entering class was around 80 with 25 cadavers and lab everyday with 5 proffessors. "harvey" was a good help too down there. the DO school had lab once a week for group A (half of the 200 incoming students). group B had it another day during the week with very quick mixers. for such a big foundation that the class has for medical school, i thought that it was rushing it. although i still was getting a good foundation there at the DO, seeing the lab 5 days a week gave me more time to really grasp the dissection.

Lets not forget that the schools in the carib are FOR profit. the more students they took the better it was financially. the education was still great, but certain people just are not cut for med school and they shouldnt have been there. however, AUC and others had to increase admission standards because of the pressure from certain states. hence, some failures on the USMLE and dropouts.

but my god azcomdiddy, you really need to drop the bad attitude toward the FMG schools. you ARE gonna be working side by side some day. nobody is disputing the US>DO>FMG. did it ever occur to you that some people just DONT want the DO. i dont know why but it does happen. maybe they are planning to settle in an area that the MD would mean more. i dont know. but thats not why i posted. i posted because you along with others demonized (exageration) foreign schools. i wanted to let them know that it is very possible to go the FMG route and get the MD that they covet.

please loose the chip on your shoulder. you dont like it when US allopathics criticize the DO thing. i do have good memories of OMM. ill never forget trying to palpate the pubic symphisis on a grossly over weight student or hearing stories from girls about how some guys were getting aroused when they got palpated....lol.
 
As long as there have been DOs, there has been an ongoing MD vs. DO debate. If you are a premed or medical student, you need to know this:

As a physician you and your colleagues will be too busy to care about where you went to medical school.
Most physicians judge each-other by the quality of their work and physician and patient feedback.
Most patients come to you based on patient recommendations and physician referrals.
Your residency and fellowship training is more important than where you went to medical school.
If you're smart and work hard, you will be a good physician. If you're lazy and don't make an effort, you'll be doing a disservice to your patients. I've seen plenty of MDs and DOs that are excellent docs and plenty who are downright scary.
Whatever you feel about MDs or DOs, bashing each other is not going to solve any issues. I am embarrassed to see the vitriol that spouts from some DO students when someone questions their degree. If you feel that you must attack anyone who questions the DO degree, then I recommend you re-evaluate your reasons for obtaining it.

MD vs. DO flame-wars will no longer be tolerated at SDN. It is OK to discuss the differences and benefits of each degree. However, personal attacks and ?trolling? are not appropriate.

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azcomdiddy, i think you should take this advice. i think everybody should take this advice because it shows us ALL the big picture.
 
When I was a pre-med, during the ignorant period of my life, I used to think that MDs were the only fully-licensed physicians around, while DOs were something else and MDs from Carribean medical schools were second-rate. How life experience have changed my view points. I view MDs from US schools, DOs, and MDs from Carribean medical schools to be equals, without a doubt. The education and training that we all receive are very similar, and are geared to preparing all of us to become sound physicians that will serve our communities. Hearing people put down each pathway disturbs me greatly. I view all of us as a team, future-wise. We will all be colleagues one day. The hospital that I volunteered at is a D.O. and he was loved by his fellow colleagues (MDs, nurses, techs, etc...). At my HMO, there is a doctor from AUC, whom is also highly respected. My primary care physician graduated from a US allopathic school, and is very attentive to my needs as a patient. Regardless of what school, what degree, and what country you obtain your medical education, if you do well, pass the boards, obtain good residency spot, demonstrate compassion and good people skills, there is no reason why one cannot be a good doctor. After my life experiences, I can absolutely say that I will not look down on any physician (allopathic, osteopathic, carribean) based on his/her degree, school, and location.
 
AUCGrad

You are simply being a hypocrite. You came on this thread and told everyone how AUC was better than the 2/3 of a semester you spent at a DO school. Now you are accusing everyone else of spewing vitriol. And just to prove my sincerity, private message me and I will give you the name of three AUC grads that I'm friends with. Nothing is more sanctimonious than when someone arrives on these threads and suggests there school is better and then tries to be the bigger man by accusing everyone else of hate etc. And we didn't attack you for questioning the DO degree. We clearly disputed the points you presented. We just did too good of job at that and you claimed we attacked you. If you are going to present facts about your school then don't leave out details like you did. I called you on those facts; I didn't attack you. If I attacked you, I would have called you a *****. Instead, I just pointed out the inconsistencies in your statements.

You don't know me AUCGrad and if you did your homework, you would have seen a thread in which I clearly stated that I will be looking out form my IMG brothers and sisters because we are all in the same boat. So I don't need to hear your preaching about how I hate IMG's etc. That's such b.s. I don't hate IMG's but I don't encourage one to pursue an IMG degree over a DO. I have provided facts to back this up. There is not one single advantage to attending a foreign medical school over a DO school. If a student can't get into a U.S. M.D. or DO school then going the Carib way is fine. But one shouldn't choose a foreign medical school because they are afraid of "explaining what a DO is to patients." If someone cares so much how other will perceive them then they should also be aware of certain people who will question their IMG status as well. That's not my opinion of my IMG's but I'm just stating a fact which is that the same people who look down on DO's will do the same in regards to IMG's. Personally, if I ever become an attending, I will actually go out of my way to recruit IMG's because I do think they get discriminated against unfairly.
 
i think everyone is taking things the wrong way. lets just agree on one thing and end this thread because it is obviously not helpful to anyone.

DO, FMG MD, MD==== a doctor that will work beside one onother
training it the more improtant aspect anyway
 
DO schools are actually easier to get into than the top notch Caribbean schools like SGU.
"And then one day you find… 10 years have gone behind you…"

nice useless bump dude. be happy with your choice. and be vigilant about the appropriate utilization of oxymorons when possible.

peace!
 
I think what Jean-Claude really meant to say was:

 
DO schools are actually easier to get into than the top notch Caribbean schools like SGU.

Looking forward to seeing your banned account. We all really appreciated the multiple old threads you bumped today with the same subject. Your insight really added a lot.
 
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