D.O. schools without dissection

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likebeast

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Hi everyone, new member. I was all ready to give up on my dream of going to medical school an becoming a DPT, since for religious reasons i cannot do dissections or even handle parts of a dead body. After stumbling on to this site and reading about LECOM, I was wondering if anyone had any more insight into this program or any others with regard to dissection, and post medical school, for that matter. THank you all for helping to fulfill the dream!
 
likebeast said:
Hi everyone, new member. I was all ready to give up on my dream of going to medical school an becoming a DPT, since for religious reasons i cannot do dissections or even handle parts of a dead body. After stumbling on to this site and reading about LECOM, I was wondering if anyone had any more insight into this program or any others with regard to dissection, and post medical school, for that matter. THank you all for helping to fulfill the dream!
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I don't know about post medical school or even in medical school for that matter but I know in my undergrad working with prosected cadavers we still handled them quite a bit. Its encouraged because it helps you to learn. If its your desire to become a physician though I would contact the schools and find more about what their anatomy classes expectations are.
 
I will look into it, was anyone excused from dissections based on religious or other reasons?
 
likebeast said:
I will look into it, was anyone excused from dissections based on religious or other reasons?
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I know that some school's policies on anatomy labs excuse pregnant women for health reasons although I've never read (although never investigated) anyone being excused for religious reasons. They have a computer simulated disection lab in that circumstance IIRC
 
LECOM opened a branch campus at Seton Hill University and if I remember correctly, they teach anatomy through computers. You might want to look into their program...
 
likebeast said:
Hi everyone, new member. I was all ready to give up on my dream of going to medical school an becoming a DPT, since for religious reasons i cannot do dissections or even handle parts of a dead body. After stumbling on to this site and reading about LECOM, I was wondering if anyone had any more insight into this program or any others with regard to dissection, and post medical school, for that matter. THank you all for helping to fulfill the dream!
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What about chest compressions on a coding patient? And won't there be problems during your 3rd year surgery clerkship?
 
Is it possible to go into medicine and never handle any part of a dead body???

To be honest ... I think this is going to become an issue at one point or another.
 
I am not a med student yet but I can't see how you can avoid handling a dead body.
 
I guess I should clarify. If there is a patient in front of me, or if I am needed, I am able to work on the patient until he/she dies, then I have to leave the room. I am a jewish priest, the priesthood prohibits contact with a dead body if only for educational purposes; if it is a matter of life and death, its fair game
 
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likebeast said:
I guess I should clarify. If there is a patient in front of me, or if I am needed, I am able to work on the patient until he/she dies, then I have to leave the room. I am a jewish priest, the priesthood prohibits contact with a dead body if only for educational purposes, if it is a matter of life and death, its fair game
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That may not work. What defines dead body to you?
 
likebeast said:
I guess I should clarify. If there is a patient in front of me, or if I am needed, I am able to work on the patient until he/she dies, then I have to leave the room. I am a jewish priest, the priesthood prohibits contact with a dead body if only for educational purposes, if it is a matter of life and death, its fair game
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Why don't you give one of the Touro branches a call (they are Jewish schools), and see if they've ever dealt with something like this.

I am curious, in your response to a code at what point do you consider the patient dead and just leave the room?
 
The patient is considered dead when its called. While there is still a chance of revival, it is still ok to be touching the patient
 
likebeast said:
The patient is considered dead when its called. While there is still a chance of revival, it is still ok to be touching the patient
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Ah, ok. Yeah, like the above guy said, call Touro. Just scratch pathologist off your career list. 😛
 
MLT2MT2DO said:
Why don't you give one of the Touro branches a call (they are Jewish schools), and see if they've ever dealt with something like this.

I am curious, in your response to a code at what point do you consider the patient dead and just leave the room?
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They make an effort to make sure there is like an airlock between dissection and outside and the guy that gave me the tour was a conservative jew, but he still taught the anatomy course. Honestly, even many of my friends in DPT programs still had to touch a dead person at some point in their educational process. There are a few schools that are trying to use computer programs. Regardless of coding, I'm still doubtful you won't come into contact at some point unless you choose radiology or something. Sometimes a patient dies at night and the resident has to go in and call it....person may still have been dead for 10 minutes.

I'm not saying you should under no circumstances go into medicine, but too many people aim to go into medicine to save lives when death is the one inevitable part we all face. This seems especially tricky since I was under the assumption that you aren't even supposed to be under the same roof as a dead body (tumat ohel) or set foot in a cemetary..If you're in a hospital, there are going to be dead bodies there. There are going to be organs not in people there as well. It is just part of the deal. I don't want to be a naysayer, but I really can't imagine how it is possible in medicine.

I respect you for your devotion and everyone I've met who is as devout as you has been an incredible and fascinating person to talk to, but short of an online medical degree, it seems rather difficult.
 
likebeast said:
I guess I should clarify. If there is a patient in front of me, or if I am needed, I am able to work on the patient until he/she dies, then I have to leave the room. I am a jewish priest, the priesthood prohibits contact with a dead body if only for educational purposes; if it is a matter of life and death, its fair game
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So could you handle an organ extracted from a cadaver that was to be transplanted into a gravely ill recipient who would otherwise die? Going one step further, could you also extract the organ from the cadaver yourself? Sorry, I'm just curious
 
likebeast said:
Hi everyone, new member. I was all ready to give up on my dream of going to medical school an becoming a DPT, since for religious reasons i cannot do dissections or even handle parts of a dead body. After stumbling on to this site and reading about LECOM, I was wondering if anyone had any more insight into this program or any others with regard to dissection, and post medical school, for that matter. THank you all for helping to fulfill the dream!
Click to expand...

What did you read about LECOM? There is "dissection" for LDP and ISP students. The biggest difference is we didn't have to dissect through the skin and fat to get to the underlying structures. We still had to dissect into the cadaver to look at the internal organs. We had to split the pelvis to look at the internal reproductive organs. We had to split the skull to look at the inside of the pharynx, larynx, trachea, etc. The teachers didn't do this for us. We had to do it. Now you can get away without ever touching or dissecting and just let your lab partners do it. But I would let them know up front so they don't always wonder why you never wanna help out. As far as lab practical go, you never touch anything. There was one bonus question where they had a body part in a bag and you had to pick up the bag and feel it to figure out what it was. As others have said, LECOM-Seton Hill and PBL at LECOM-Erie don't do dissection and learn by computer programs. The program at SH is also PBL so you may wanna look and see if that pathway would work for you because it requires a tremendous amount of book reading. If you have anymore specific anatomy lab questions, send me a PM
 
bleeker10 said:
What did you read about LECOM? There is "dissection" for LDP and ISP students. The biggest difference is we didn't have to dissect through the skin and fat to get to the underlying structures. We still had to dissect into the cadaver to look at the internal organs. We had to split the pelvis to look at the internal reproductive organs. We had to split the skull to look at the inside of the pharynx, larynx, trachea, etc. The teachers didn't do this for us. We had to do it. Now you can get away without ever touching or dissecting and just let your lab partners do it. But I would let them know up front so they don't always wonder why you never wanna help out. As far as lab practical go, you never touch anything. There was one bonus question where they had a body part in a bag and you had to pick up the bag and feel it to figure out what it was. As others have said, LECOM-Seton Hill and PBL at LECOM-Erie don't do dissection and learn by computer programs. The program at SH is also PBL so you may wanna look and see if that pathway would work for you because it requires a tremendous amount of book reading. If you have anymore specific anatomy lab questions, send me a PM
Click to expand...


Bleeker10 is right. I am a student at LECOM-SH and we do a tremendous amount of reading for Anatomy. Not to mention we spend hours on the computer looking at structures and what not on the program we use.

And PBL we read ALOT. We have read insane amounts of material (easily >4000 pages).

However, I do want to comment. In your rotations it will be nearly impossible to not be around a dead body. I have "heard" that for some students at some schools (not necessarily LECOM) that a patient may have died in an MVA and they had to help clean up the body for the family which could mean suturing up lacs and what not...perfect opportunity to learn how to suture a resident COULD say. Again, I dont know if this happens or has even happened but I have "heard" stories.
 
Thank you all very much for your input.

A"live" organ is permissible to touch.

Thank you for alerting me about the suturing and the calling, I'll have to look into it.
 
bleeker10 said:
What did you read about LECOM? There is "dissection" for LDP and ISP students. The biggest difference is we didn't have to dissect through the skin and fat to get to the underlying structures. We still had to dissect into the cadaver to look at the internal organs. We had to split the pelvis to look at the internal reproductive organs. We had to split the skull to look at the inside of the pharynx, larynx, trachea, etc. The teachers didn't do this for us. We had to do it. Now you can get away without ever touching or dissecting and just let your lab partners do it. But I would let them know up front so they don't always wonder why you never wanna help out. As far as lab practical go, you never touch anything. There was one bonus question where they had a body part in a bag and you had to pick up the bag and feel it to figure out what it was. As others have said, LECOM-Seton Hill and PBL at LECOM-Erie don't do dissection and learn by computer programs. The program at SH is also PBL so you may wanna look and see if that pathway would work for you because it requires a tremendous amount of book reading. If you have anymore specific anatomy lab questions, send me a PM
Click to expand...

You had to "split the skull to look at the inside of the trachea..."? How did you do that?😕 :meanie:
 
DoctaJMa said:
Bleeker10 is right. I am a student at LECOM-SH and we do a tremendous amount of reading for Anatomy. Not to mention we spend hours on the computer looking at structures and what not on the program we use.

And PBL we read ALOT. We have read insane amounts of material (easily >4000 pages).

However, I do want to comment. In your rotations it will be nearly impossible to not be around a dead body. I have "heard" that for some students at some schools (not necessarily LECOM) that a patient may have died in an MVA and they had to help clean up the body for the family which could mean suturing up lacs and what not...perfect opportunity to learn how to suture a resident COULD say. Again, I dont know if this happens or has even happened but I have "heard" stories.
Click to expand...

So, you guys don't have a cadaver lab at all or is the software in addition to the lab?

I'm trying very hard to wrap my head around this.
 
likebeast said:
Hi everyone, new member. I was all ready to give up on my dream of going to medical school an becoming a DPT, since for religious reasons i cannot do dissections or even handle parts of a dead body. After stumbling on to this site and reading about LECOM, I was wondering if anyone had any more insight into this program or any others with regard to dissection, and post medical school, for that matter. THank you all for helping to fulfill the dream!
Click to expand...

Dude,

DPT schools have cadaver based anatomy as well. You may wanna look into that.
 
stoptouchingme said:
...and he found the trachea in the skull? lol
Click to expand...

Yea what I meant was its easier to see the internal structures of the nasal/oral passages and throat if you split the skull because when we split the skull we also cut and split the throat. I figured that was kind of implied by what I wrote but I guess not. I'm in the middle of studying for a clinical neuro test and was just trying to write a helpful answer but was rushed and didn't really proof read my answer too well.
 
bleeker10 said:
Yea what I meant was its easier to see the internal structures of the nasal/oral passages and throat if you split the skull because when we split the skull we also cut and split the throat. I figured that was kind of implied by what I wrote but I guess not. I'm in the middle of studying for a clinical neuro test and was just trying to write a helpful answer but was rushed and didn't really proof read my answer too well.
Click to expand...

Oh, don't worry. I was just messing with you anyways. We all do that from time to time. I just have a weird sense of humor. No hard feelings.:meanie:

Have fun studying.
 
MossPoh said:
They make an effort to make sure there is like an airlock between dissection and outside and the guy that gave me the tour was a conservative jew, but he still taught the anatomy course. Honestly, even many of my friends in DPT programs still had to touch a dead person at some point in their educational process. There are a few schools that are trying to use computer programs. Regardless of coding, I'm still doubtful you won't come into contact at some point unless you choose radiology or something. Sometimes a patient dies at night and the resident has to go in and call it....person may still have been dead for 10 minutes.

I'm not saying you should under no circumstances go into medicine, but too many people aim to go into medicine to save lives when death is the one inevitable part we all face. This seems especially tricky since I was under the assumption that you aren't even supposed to be under the same roof as a dead body (tumat ohel) or set foot in a cemetary..If you're in a hospital, there are going to be dead bodies there. There are going to be organs not in people there as well. It is just part of the deal. I don't want to be a naysayer, but I really can't imagine how it is possible in medicine.

I respect you for your devotion and everyone I've met who is as devout as you has been an incredible and fascinating person to talk to, but short of an online medical degree, it seems rather difficult.
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I think you could likely get by without ever dissecting another human, but touching or being in the same room would be very difficult or impossible. Im going into PM&R where its possible I will not see many or any person ever die infront of me again but I still had to do an internship. Even my friend going into radiology next year is having to do his transitional year internship where we are required to participate in codes and pronounce people dead. You cant pronounce dead without listening to heart, lungs and checking a few other things. There may be some institutions out there willing to work with you, but it might put you at significant disadvantage on your interviews when telling the PD of your limitations.
 
what happens if you go into a room not knowing the patient has been dead and "called dead" previously and touch the patient thinking he was alive? would you be doomed for all time and eternity?
 
I'm probably going to get the worst repercussion for saying this, but if you're religious and your religion interferes with any aspect of medical practice, please do us a favor and not become a doctor. Last thing I would want (if I were a doctor) is having to cleanup after some colleague because his religion says so or have him walk away in the middle of some procedure. As a patient, I would want him even less. Don't be selfish by going into this career.
 
SDN is the place to post your opinion if you have one. It's always the readers job to remember that no matter what the opinion is, it's only worth what you make of it.

Try to keep this peaceful guys. The fact that were discussing religion already makes some people uncomfortable sometimes, so please do your best to be curteous to other people's feelings.
 
Please don't let others get in the way of your dream. I'm sure there are ways to get around this minor issue. Go become a doctor!
 
If you have necrotic tissue on a living patient, can you touch it?

Are you allowed to physically affect the world around you on Shabbat if it is just using an ink pen for notes? What about a non-life saving procedure that involves work... say, fixing a broken arm?

Do mitzvahs work like hail Marys? Can you just assign yourself 5 good deeds after every lab?

What if the body is only "mostly dead", like in Princess Bride?

What if the body belonged to a person that used to be non-Jewish? Is it ok to touch it then? What if the preservative used was kosher?

If someone dies in Tel Aviv, do they have a crew from Islamabad move the body into the casket, or does everyone wear gloves... never mind, if gloves worked, then anatomy lab wouldn't be a problem. Can a muslim even touch an infidel body, or do you have to import a Christian crew from Europe?

Is there a clear cut rule for zombies?
 
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Eh... this issue isn't 'minor.' I don't think doctor is the right field if you don't want to handle a dead body (for whatever reason). During residency you may have to pronounce someone dead. You will likely be in the same room as a dead body. Hell, even as a volunteer in the ER, I helped transport a dead body to the morgue.

wannabeaDO said:
Please don't let others get in the way of your dream. I'm sure there are ways to get around this minor issue. Go become a doctor!
Click to expand...
 
No, this is a minor issue, that may be encountered once or twice during medical school rotations. Depending on the field he want to go in, he will not encounter this again like as a family physician with a private practice.

He wants to be a doctor not a corner, and I don't think someone should give up their dream just because he cannot handle dead body.

Hey I'll tell you what OP. If you go to school with me, and if this situation arises. I'll help clean up. You can buy me lunch.🙂
 
likebeast said:
I guess I should clarify. If there is a patient in front of me, or if I am needed, I am able to work on the patient until he/she dies, then I have to leave the room. I am a jewish priest, the priesthood prohibits contact with a dead body if only for educational purposes; if it is a matter of life and death, its fair game
Click to expand...

I would suggest that you speak to your rabbi since you are a cohen and get some better information. Podiatric students have to do anatomy also on cadavers so that is an issue for you too.

There are plenty of cohens out there that are physicians. And while the issue of being tameh or tahor is something that needs to be discussed, I am sure that going to the mikvah after you pronounce a patient or have to go through medical school should not discourage you from following what you want to do in life.

That being said, go see your rav and get the proper information. This is certainly not the place.
 
wannabeaDO said:
No, this is a minor issue, that may be encountered once or twice during medical school rotations. Depending on the field he want to go in, he will not encounter this again like as a family physician with a private practice.

He wants to be a doctor not a corner, and I don't think someone should give up their dream just because he cannot handle dead body.

Hey I'll tell you what OP. If you go to school with me, and if this situation arises. I'll help clean up. You can buy me lunch.🙂
Click to expand...

I love it when pre-meds give advice about situations they have never been in.
 
Religious reasons aside, it would be a huge disservice to your own education to not participate in dissection. Anatomy is one of the most relevant courses in medical school, not dissecting means you would be doing a huge disfavor to your own education & perhaps your future patients. A good doctor understands structure & relationships, something you can't learn completely from a computer program or models. In addition, I find it highly unlikely you could get through med school without at least being tested on structures tagged from dissected parts.
 
I know that my school (not a DO though) has, on occasion, accommodated Jewish religious practices by allowing students only to observe, not to touch cadavers. It's probably something best calling each DO school about to see what their take is on it. Even if it isn't a special program, they might make accommodations.
 
wannabeaDO said:
No, this is a minor issue, that may be encountered once or twice during medical school rotations. Depending on the field he want to go in, he will not encounter this again like as a family physician with a private practice.
Click to expand...

I hate to tell you this, but you'll be around dead bodies a lot more than once or twice through your four years of medical school and residency (even ignoring anatomy lab).
 
yes sir...in fact speak to your rabbi..
you are not allowed to handle them for educational purposes, but you are if it's life and death

BUT you handling cadavers for educational purposes is indirectly a matter of life and death of your future patients as it may give you the nec. knowledge to better treat them

I know judiasm has all sorts of different interprations of laws...so see if reasoning like this applies
 
OP I have cohens in my family so I am familiar with this situation. Like others have said, speak with your rabbi. I would suspect the rabbi would have a solution for you.

For example, my father is a physician, and is a religious jew. He doesnt typically drive on shabbat, but if he is working, or on call he does. If you are doing good for others you will likely be excused. (this is my non religious jew opinion of the matter hehe 🙂 )
 
likebeast said:
I guess I should clarify. If there is a patient in front of me, or if I am needed, I am able to work on the patient until he/she dies, then I have to leave the room. I am a jewish priest, the priesthood prohibits contact with a dead body if only for educational purposes; if it is a matter of life and death, its fair game
Click to expand...

This is a very interesting question. I am Jewish too (though not a priest), and have asked around in the religious community (I assume that you are religious if you are following the priesthood). The answers I got were basically that if you are a medical student, you CAN handle dead bodies, despite being a priest. Even though it is for educational purposes, this is education that will help you save lives, and so it is okay. I think the prohibition from touching bodies (which is straight from the Torah) is different from educational touching of bodies, which (I think) was based on the fact that artist apprentices would have to touch dead bodies in order to learn the profession. However, because learning to be a doctor will help you save lives, it is okay. If you can find a program that would let you avoid touching bodies, that might be preferable (especially if that is your religious view.) Don't give up on the dream!

If you want to talk about it further, feel free to PM me.
 
Concubine said:
Religious reasons aside, it would be a huge disservice to your own education to not participate in dissection. Anatomy is one of the most relevant courses in medical school, not dissecting means you would be doing a huge disfavor to your own education & perhaps your future patients. A good doctor understands structure & relationships, something you can't learn completely from a computer program or models. In addition, I find it highly unlikely you could get through med school without at least being tested on structures tagged from dissected parts.
Click to expand...


As I see it, this is the crux of his problem. You learn so much more anatomy from cadaver dissections than you do from books, models, simulations, etc. Seeing the relevant anatomy laid out before you in your cadaver really helps the information stick in your head. Personally, I felt like I learned more in an hour in the cadaver lab than 3 hours spent perusing Netter's, browsing online pictures, etc. I really enjoyed the dissections and it seemed like almost everyone else did also.

And just as an aside, I don't understand how any just, loving God would have a problem with one of his own learning to take care of other humans by studying from cadavers. I tend to think God would be pretty proud of this, in fact.
 
dozitgetchahi said:
As I see it, this is the crux of his problem. You learn so much more anatomy from cadaver dissections than you do from books, models, simulations, etc. Seeing the relevant anatomy laid out before you in your cadaver really helps the information stick in your head. Personally, I felt like I learned more in an hour in the cadaver lab than 3 hours spent perusing Netter's, browsing online pictures, etc. I really enjoyed the dissections and it seemed like almost everyone else did also.

And just as an aside, I don't understand how any just, loving God would have a problem with one of his own learning to take care of other humans by studying from cadavers. I tend to think God would be pretty proud of this, in fact.
Click to expand...

👍
 
dozitgetchahi said:
And just as an aside, I don't understand how any just, loving God would have a problem with one of his own learning to take care of other humans by studying from cadavers. I tend to think God would be pretty proud of this, in fact.
Click to expand...

I do not want to start any kind of religious flamewar, so hopefully I can answer this without any issues. The Jewish religion is based on thousands of years of tradition, and so a lot of what comes from tradition is based on all of that history.

The ordinance that priests not come in contact with a dead body is straight from the Bible (Old Testament, look in Leviticus for exact wording). The purpose was so that the priest would not have any issues with his body not being "holy" at an unexpected time, especially when he could be called to work in the Temple on short notice (and priests could not have an "unholy body" when working in the Temple). For this reason, a priest was only allowed to come into contact with the dead bodies of 7 people (mother, father, son, daughter, brother, sister, spouse). The current practice of priests not coming in contact with dead bodies is because of the religious tradition of anticipating for the coming of the Messiah. Because of this, priests are still not allowed to come in contact with a dead body.

Now, considering the fact that thousands of years ago medicine was mostly guesswork and potions without any modern science to back it up, and there was very little that could actually be done to help people, priests generally did not consider medicine as a career. Modern medicine on the other hand, is very different. You could argue that the current process of medicine is no longer guesswork, and being a doctor is really about preventing people from getting sick and dying and that you can really help people.

As far as a "just, loving God", that might depend on what you think God would be more proud of. Does God value you upholding His laws and not come in contact with a dead body? Or does God value a person going into medicine to help people? It's almost impossible to answer this question, and you can argue either way.

As always, a person's religion is their own beliefs and tenets. If someone wants to follow in their practice, then let them do so.
 
To be fair, the Old Testament also says that someone shouldn't wear clothes made of two different types of fabric. I don't think the Bible is so much the argument here as the OP's specific religion. I'm not familiar with Judaism or Jewish priests (if that's even the correct term), but I would imagine it would be something the OP would have to discuss with a superior rabbi.
 
SnoopyMD said:
To be fair, the Old Testament also says that someone shouldn't wear clothes made of two different types of fabric. I don't think the Bible is so much the argument here as the OP's specific religion. I'm not familiar with Judaism or Jewish priests (if that's even the correct term), but I would imagine it would be something the OP would have to discuss with a superior rabbi.
Click to expand...

This is definitely true. Any and all questions involving religion should be settled by religious leaders, not on forums by anonymous users.

The actual law from the Bible is not wearing linen and wool together (not that you can't wear ANY two fabrics together.) Most religious Jews do not wear linen and wool together in their clothing, so this one still exists today.
 
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