D.O. vs. caribbean?

[Stratus2675]

I'm also pretty sure the MCAT is a requirement at AUC as well.

Are some DO schools doubling their class sizes? What new DO schools are opening?

Touro is opening a DO school in NYC. Its still in the planning stage and a few years away.

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[daelroy]

yep, usnews. it was actually 60.1% for last year.

ok apps 188
ok interviews 152
ok acceptances 113


oh yeah, 77 enrolled.

This still doesn't change the fact that OSU boasts far higher admission statistics than any of the Big 3 schools. Their average GPA was a 3.5 and their MCAT was a 27. Are you suggesting these students wouldn't somehow be admitted to SGU or any of the Big 3?

http://www.healthsciences.okstate.edu/student/admissions/entrance.htm

 

[novacek88]

You have to question statistics posted by SGU, Ross and AUC. For years, they wouldn't post their average scores. Ross and AUC didn't start requiring the MCAT until a few years ago. It should also be stated that SGU, Ross and AUC still does not publish their acceptance rate such as the number of students who apply, interview and are accepted. You have to question why a school deliberaly fails to post this information year in and year out.

This leads me to my point, any information these schools publish is highly suspect. I can give you another example to illustrate my point. SGU, Ross and AUC were known to inflate their board passage rates. They would advertise that their Step I passage rates were in the low to high 80's. What these schools didn't tell you is they would have shelf exams and would not authorize students to take the USMLE Step I unless they passed the shelf which was
"for the student's benefit." What this meant was their actual board passage rate would have been far lower had they allowed students who failed their shelf to take the exam. This is an easy and clear example of how these schools embellish and manipulate their statistics. Maybe these schools changed these policies but I know for a fact they were doing this as recently as 5 years ago.

I applied to SGU when I was applying to DO schools many years ago. I was missing one O-chem lab and one Physics lab segment. I told SGU I would be unable to complete these course before the Spring matriculation date. I was then directed to an admissions officer who told me they would forego those requirements because my MCAT was really high. If they were willing to do this for me, I wonder what type of other requirements they let slip.

So when these schools post their admission stats, I don't know what to believe. I personally know someone who was admitted to SGU with a 2.4 GPA and 31 MCAT LAST FALL. There is no way this person would be admitted to even the lowest ranked DO school with a GPA that low.

And it should suprise anyone why certain DO schools have low admission statistics. That was the case with my alma mater when they first opened in 1996. Any new school will boast lower entrance stats because the school is not yet established and thus doesn't have the reputation it needs to be competitive. So to compare the entrance stats of schools like SGU, Ross and AUC that have been in existance for nearly 30 years to DO schools that opened in the last 5 years doesn't speak well of Caribbean schools.

 

[novacek88]

true, but it gives a picture of how uncompetitive and maybe how unadvantageous it is to go to a lower tier do school.

Not true

If you compare the top ranked DO schools with the least competitive U.S. M.D. schools, the DO schools boast higher entrance stats. And if you compare the match lists of top ranked DO schools with the match lists of these weaker allopathic schools, they are very similar in their placements as well. Does that mean that a student with top scores of a lesser tiered M.D. school (Howard) would not fare much better than a top student of a top DO school (MSUCOM)?

It may be sad but having the DO behind your name will give you an advantage at most programs in this country over an IMG just like having an MD from Meharry would still give you an advantage over an MSUCOM grad. I agree that in NY and NJ, IMG's might be favored over DO's but that's the only part of the country that I could see doing this. On the other hand, the midwest is very partial to DO's and many programs in the midwest do not even bother discriminating against DO's at all. California and Texas discriminate against DO's but still favors them over IMG's because their states contain DO schools have a decent number of graduates practicing in the state. However, as most of you know both California and Texas are not IMG friendly in the least bit.

 

[daelroy]

as more schools open or double their class sizes, do schools might even become easier to get into than sgu. scary thought.

Except that all the students who would have attended SGU and Ross would now attend one of those lower tiered DO schools which would mean SGU and Ross would be even easier to get into than now, which is hard to imagine I'm sure.

 

[novacek88]

Except that all the students who would have attended SGU and Ross would now attend one of those lower tiered DO schools which would mean SGU and Ross would be even easier to get into than now, which is hard to imagine I'm sure.

 

[MD Rapper]

Except that all the students who would have attended SGU and Ross would now attend one of those lower tiered DO schools which would mean SGU and Ross would be even easier to get into than now, which is hard to imagine I'm sure.

But you're failing to recognize that there is a relatively large group of people who would choose to go foreign over osteopathic...

And just in case you are wondering, the reason why you probably aren't seeing these people is because they probably don't hang out on the pre-osteopathic board... they also have their own web forums, valuemd.com... so they aren't really coming onto SDN either. Asking DO vs. caribbean on their forum will more probably give you very different responses then what you see here.

If you search over there you'll see what I mean... a lot of people over there chose caribbean over DO.

I'm not trying to be an a$$hole... I'm just stating some facts to bring awareness that there is no clear cut answer as to which one is better, DO or Caribbean

 

[daelroy]

If you search over there you'll see what I mean... a lot of people over there chose caribbean over DO.

And a lot of DO's chose osteopathic medicine over allopathic medicine for OMM despite being admitted to an allopathic school. I was one of them. I loved the location, campus, opportunity to learn OMM and student body over many of the allopathic schools I was admitted to.

This is something IMG's just fail to understand. A lot of us chose DO.

 

[MD Rapper]

This is something IMG's just fail to understand. A lot of us chose DO.

You're right, there are biases both ways... I fully agree with this statement.

 

[novacek88]

But you're failing to recognize that there is a relatively large group of people who would choose to go foreign over osteopathic...

And just in case you are wondering, the reason why you probably aren't seeing these people is because they probably don't hang out on the pre-osteopathic board... they also have their own web forums, valuemd.com... so they aren't really coming onto SDN either. Asking DO vs. caribbean on their forum will more probably give you very different responses then what you see here.

If you search over there you'll see what I mean... a lot of people over there chose caribbean over DO.

I'm not trying to be an a$$hole... I'm just stating some facts to bring awareness that there is no clear cut answer as to which one is better, DO or Caribbean

And you don't think DO's do the same? How many DO's admit they settled on DO? It's like asking people in a prison if they are innocent. What do you think the answer is going to be. I don't expect any IMG to admit their stats were so low they had no choice but to attend a foreign medical school like I don't expect any DO to admit they couldn't be admitted to an allopathic school. There is a reason that admission stats of IMG's in general are significantly lower than osteopathic students. And don't compare the top 3 IMG schools to the worst 3 DO schools. That's like me comparing the top 3 DO schools with the worst 3 M.D. schools and making assumptions based on that. Overall, osteopathic students still boast higher entrance stats than IMG's.

I'm sure a significant portion chose IMG over DO like a signifcant portion chose DO over US MD but the reality is that most DO's like most IMG's had no choice but to attend their school.

 

[MD Rapper]

I don't expect any IMG to admit their stats were so low they had no choice but to attend a foreign medical school...

If you saw my last post, you'll see that I'm not at all in any opposition to DO's in the context of the DO vs. Caribbean argument... I'm definitely not here to make statistical comparisons either.

But I was talking about people who had the choice between the two and then chose caribbean... I mean, let's at least give the people who said they got into an osteopathic school and a caribbean school on the valuemd forum the benefit of the doubt.

 

[goldfish85]

there are those of us (me included) which prefer an MD behind our name, and dont want to learn OMM or prepair seperately for the complex

why i would pick AUC over a lower teir DO school:

No complex, extra weeks of fp rotation, no OMM

the campus is in another country but for god sake its not hell. there is kfc, beaches, and bi**es. there are casinos, and strip clubs. i mean there is more than enough to survive. there are movie theaters, resturants... etc...

who cares how competitive it is to get into? what matters more is where it takes you...

so looking at first time USMLE 1 pass rates, there not so bad. slightly below the us avg. also the residency placements are nothing to hide. they are impressive i think. and yes there are like one or two that match into something really cometitive but there are quite a few in anesth., surg, and a ton in peds, fp, etc..

but you probably cant get derms, ortho and radiology? so what. i mean seriously i screwed up bad enough in college. ok so three jobs are harder to get. i mean its not the end of the world, and im probably not going into derms...

but the prestige and stigma with being a USIMG: well DOs have this issue too.. and honestly to you guys, a MD carribean is nothing to brag about... its probably someething to be ashamed about but i bet you if i walk into a bar and tell the chick next to me that im a MD she will be all for it.... so were in our own little world

______

sorry for the long post. but that said DO vs Carrib.... seriously. you post this in a DO forum.... its like arguing with women about anything... your going to only get one response...

 

[novacek88]

But I was talking about people who had the choice between the two... I mean, let's at least give the people who said they got into an osteopathic school and a caribbean school on the valuemd forum the benefit of the doubt.

Which would include every member on that forum and that's the point we are making. If you step foot on a DO campus, everyone would state they chose DO over M.D. Should we give all of them the benefit of the doubt as well?

Look, let's not deny reality. People lie. People have pride and don't like to admit they had no choice but to choose a particular school whether that is an DO or foreign medical school. Trust me when I tell you that each DO school has at least 1-3 dropouts from the big 3 in each first year class (Ross, AUC and SGU). No one dropped out of our class to attend one of those schools. Ask other DO's this and they will only confirm this.

 

[MD Rapper]

Which would include every member on that forum and that's the point we are making...

Not exactly... there is a very generous amount of people on that forum who will admit that the caribbean was their only option. I want to make it clear that my argument isn't really a numerical one.

I'm just saying that there ARE people out there who did choose foreign over DO, and that it's quite possible that there are more of those people than what you might expect. I'm really not trying to deny the things that you're saying...

 

[novacek88]

so looking at first time USMLE 1 pass rates, there not so bad. slightly below the us avg. also the residency placements are nothing to hide. they are impressive i think. and yes there are like one or two that match into something really cometitive but there are quite a few in anesth., surg, and a ton in peds, fp, etc..

I agree with you with the exception of this post. Your first time pass rates are lower than you are making it out to seem especially if they don't allow those who fail your shelf to take the exam. And your match lists are less impressive than ours. You can exaggerate all you want and make it seem like a ton of you guys match in anesth and surg but the reality is quite the opposite especially when you have 3 times the number of people in a given class than we do.

And as far as chicks go, I don't think they will think much of your MD if you are stuck in primary care while I'm a specialist making 3 times the salary you are with a DO behind my name. That's assuming of course you can get hired on at a decent sized group in a city with attractive women which might be difficult if you end up doing your residency in the ghetto like many IMG's are known to do.

 

[MD Rapper]

And as far as chicks go, I don't think they will think much of your MD if you are in primary care while I'm a specialist making 3 times the salary you are with DO behind my name.

, the MD vs. DO thing is such a disregardable (is that a word?) point when it comes to females...

What will matter to women:

1) That you're a doctor...
2) Which means you're probably holding down a good income
3) You get brownie-points for making that money through relatively humanitarian means.

 

[MD Rapper]

You know what type of residencies I'm talking about. Can we say Queens!

The same thing can happen to any medical student, US MD, US DO, or Foreign... if you suck

 

[dr.z]

tprepair seperately for the complex

For your information it is called COMLEX.

 

[goldfish85]

I agree with you with the exception of this post. Your first time pass rates are lower than you are making it out to seem especially if they don't allow those who fail your shelf to take the exam. And your match lists are less impressive than ours. You can exaggerate all you want and make it seem like a ton of you guys match in anesth and surg but the reality is quite the opposite especially when you have 3 times the number of people in a given class than we do.

And as far as chicks go, I don't think they will think much of your MD if you are stuck in primary care while I'm a specialist making 3 times the salary you are with a DO behind my name. That's assuming of course you can get hired on at a decent sized group in a city with attractive women which might be difficult if you end up doing your residency in the ghetto like many IMG's are known to do.

take it easy, i was not insulting your DO status at all... first off if you want a women that wants you cause you make 3x what i make... have her...hahaha

btw, from what it seems US MD, IMGs, DOs get paid the same... because they dont pay you cause you went to harvard, they pay you for the job that you do.

also, im not stuck in primary care, there are a few other options

oh and the ghetto has some boody so dont dis it.

you see that part that i highlighted in bold? well it think its kind of a childish statement dont you think... "my*** is bigger" would be a nice reply but i will refrain.... so in reply, which match list? post a link and i will compare it... the class size of AUC is not as big as lets say ROSS, so its not really that bad. i was impressed.

i might sound like im exaggerating, but i can throw numbers if you want. all im saying is that for a carrib. school its pretty damn impressive. not bad at all and its definately up to par.

ps: personally i love business so if no one hires a pooor USIMG carrib grad post residency i wouldnt mind because i would LOVE to start my own practice.

ps2: cant we just be friends and say were doctors? instead of saying "i make 3x as much and your stuck in blah blah" ?

 

[rahulazcom]

I'm from Phoenix and I absolutely love this city. My priority was to study in Phoenix at any cost. I had no desire to move to Tucson and study at the University of Arizona because I knew no one there and it's a pretty small city compared to Phoenix. All the people I knew lived in Phoenix and I wanted to be close to them. The U of A would have made me a more competitive applicant to residencies but primary care was what I was leaning toward so being a DO wasn't an issue for me.

When I visited AZCOM and saw the beautiful campus in addition to meeting the faculty and student body, I was hooked and it was the only medical school I applied to. If I wanted to meet my friends out at the bars on the weekends like I have always done, I would still have that option. If I wanted to visit my folks, it was only a short flight away. If I wanted to eat at my favorite restaurant, I could do it. If I wanted to drive my car, I had that option. I studied abroad in England and Costa Rica in college and that was fun. But for something as stressful as medical school, I wanted to be home near my support group. AZCOM gave me a chance to study at home and for me the psychological benefits are immense.

I had a dear friend who was also living in Phoenix at the time. He was a latecomer to the application cycle. He claimed to have had a weak GPA but a competitive MCAT. He might have gotten had he applied to AZCOM but he never applied and DO school was never an option for him. He wanted the M.D. and claimed he was fine with primary care if he was forced to do that. I too was content with primary care but I still wanted more of an option to specialize if given the choice. I don't fault my friend for going to AUC and I'm sure he is happy there. He will eventually come back to the states and practice here just like me.

I'm very happy with my decision. My wife got a great job in Phoenix so settling here was a necessity. Had I gone to a foreign school, I would have no assurances that I could do my residency in Phoenix which was my priority. As an AZCOM student, I will do all or most of my rotations at local hospitals in the Valley' which increases my chances of getting a residency here. For me, the thought of moving around to various hospitals in the New York and New Jersey seemed very foreign and remote to me. Plus, I'm a warm weather wuss as I have adjusted to the climate here so wearing sweaters, big coats and dealing ice and wind was not an option.

Yes, I will have to explain my DO degree but is that really the worst of it? Man, I used to work at a job in which I saw people in their early 50's lose their jobs. Just being a physician is an honor and a priviledge. And if someone chooses not to see me because of my initials, they are probably doing me a service because chances that person might be a little superficial and those patients turn out to be ones who can be a pain in the butt later on. I know quite a few DO's in Phoenix who are doing quite well for themselves so I'm not concerned that my degree will impact my earning potential or patient base. I do know that many patients choose to see only DO's because of their previous experience with them so I will have that advantage. Initially, I didn't think much of OMM but after having practiced on family and directly seeing results, I have come to believe in it and I'm excited to learn it. I used to think of it as a hassle. Now I have embraced it as an opportunity to learn a practice that can benefit people.

I only wrote this to show you that every person has his or her reasons for choosing one path over the other. There is no right path. Everyone has to look inside and determine what is best for them. Take these posts on SDN with a grain of salt. I advise meeting real life examples. If you are thinking about a foreign school, then go and meet a former IMG who is now practicing. If you want to learn about DO's, meet a DO. A lot of things being said here is mere hearsay, gossip and rumor. Don't believe the hype. Meet real life examples.

 

[MD Rapper]

I'm from Phoenix and I absolutely love this city. My priority was to study in Phoenix at any cost. I had no desire to move to Tucson and study at the University of Arizona because I don't know anyone there and all my friends and contacts live in Phoenix so for me AZCOM was a no brainer. Plust I was in my late 20's when I started so it's much more difficult to be away from friends and family at this age versus being a 22 year old kid and moving to a new city and starting over. When I visited AZCOM and saw the beautiful campus in addition to meeting the faculty and student body, I was hooked and it was the only medical school I applied to. If I wanted to meet my friends out at the bars on the weekends like I have always done, I would still have that option. If I wanted to visit my folks, it was only a short flight away. If I wanted to eat at my favorite restaurant, I could do it. I wouldn't get into my car and drive somewhere, I had that option. I studied abroad in England and Costa Rica in college and that was fun. But for something as stressful as medical school, I wanted to be home near my support group. AZCOM gave me a chance to study at home and for me the psychological benefits are immense.

I had a dear friend who was also living in Phoenix at the time. He was a latecomer to the application cycle. He claimed to have had a weak GPA but a competitive MCAT. He might have gotten had he applied to AZCOM but he never applied and DO school was never an option for him. He wanted the M.D. and claimed he was fine with primary care if he was forced to do that. I too was content with primary care but I still wanted more of an option to specialize if given the choice. I don't fault my friend for going to AUC and I'm sure he is happy there. He will eventually come back to the states and practice here just like me.

I'm very happy with my decision. My wife got a great job in Phoenix so settling here was a necessity. Had I gone to a foreign school, I would have no assurances that I could do my residency in Phoenix which was my priority. As an AZCOM student, I will do all or most of my rotations at local hospitals in the Valley' which increases my chances of getting a residency here. For me, the thought of moving around to various hospitals in the New York and New Jersey seemed very foreign and remote to me. Plus, I'm a warm weather wuss as I have adjusted to the climate here so wearing sweaters, big coats and dealing ice and wind was not an option.

Yes, I will have to explain my DO degree but is that really the worst of it? Man, I used to work at a job in which I saw people in their early 50's lose their jobs. Just being a physician is an honor and a priviledge. And if someone chooses not to see me because of my initials, they are probably doing me a service because chances that person might be a little superficial and those patients turn out to be ones who can be a pain in the butt later on. I know quite a few DO's in Phoenix who are doing quite well for themselves so I'm not concerned that my degree will impact my earning potential or patient base. I do know that many patients choose to see only DO's because of their previous experience with them so I will have that advantage. Initially, I didn't think much of OMM but after having practiced on family and directly seeing results, I have come to believe in it and I'm excited to learn it. I used to think of it as a hassle. Now I have embraced it as an opportunity to learn a practice that can benefit people.

I only wrote this to show you that every person has his or her reasons for choosing one path over the other. There is no right path. Everyone has to look inside and determine what is best for them. Take these posts on SDN with a grain of salt. I advise meeting real life examples. If you are thinking about a foreign school, then go and meet a former IMG who is now practicing. If you want to learn about DO's, meet a DO. A lot of things being said here is mere hearsay, gossip and rumor. Don't believe the hype. Meet real life examples.

Great post!

 

[SpankingGT]

I love reading these posts where carbbiean med schools are shot down by people with little to no knowledge about them, espically when people read ONE persons blog and make ass-umptions about the school!
Most people that attend carb med schools have somewhere along the line got "lazy" during their undergrad years and are unable to attain a seat in the US schools. These schools are all about a second chance. If one attends these schools with the same attitude that they had during thier undergrad where they would slack off and just plan to coast thru, you are in for a rude awakening!
Some one mentioned the attrition rate to be close to 50%, you are wrong! I cant speak for other schools but for SGU it is about 7% (according to the their site) and it would be safe to assume around 10%.
As for residency -
http://sgu.edu/website/sguwebsite.nsf/home/2005PostgraduateResidencyAppointments.htm

 

[Doctor Bagel]

This still doesn't change the fact that OSU boasts far higher admission statistics than any of the Big 3 schools. Their average GPA was a 3.5 and their MCAT was a 27. Are you suggesting these students wouldn't somehow be admitted to SGU or any of the Big 3?

http://www.healthsciences.okstate.edu/student/admissions/entrance.htm

i'm not suggesting anything at all. i was just replying to osudoc's questioning of my statistic. mainly, i posted that statistic in response to dr. maxy's post about friends who attended the big three without taking the mcat. since dr. maxy is an oklahoman and went to ugrad in oklahoma, i'm assuming these friends were also oklahomans. since oklahoma is one of the easier states for a student to gain admission to medical school, i was just wondering why an oklahoma applicant wouldn't even bother to take the mcat and try their chances at ou and osu.

 

[DD214_DOC]

No one dropped out of our class to attend one of those schools. Ask other DO's this and they will only confirm this.

There are several people on valuemd who dropped out of DO school to attend a big three, or were admitted to DO and one of the big three and decided to attend in the Carib. The usual reasons cited are thinking OMM is useless, not wanting to do several weeks of FP rotations, and not wanting to be a DO.

 

[DD214_DOC]

A lot of us chose DO.

"A lot" seems a bit too generous. Probably more like, "some", or "a few". If most DOs really gave a crap about being a DO, then more than 5-10% would practice OMM.

 

[allendo]

"A lot" seems a bit too generous. Probably more like, "some", or "a few". If most DOs really gave a crap about being a DO, then more than 5-10% would practice OMM.

If you were not such an idiot you would realize that OMM= Pm&R and sports medicine. If you would drop out of a U.S. school to go to a carrib school just b/c the letters behind your name(and you know thats why) then you are a very insecure person.

 

[goldfish85]

If you were not such an idiot you would realize that OMM= Pm&R and sports medicine. If you would drop out of a U.S. school to go to a carrib school just b/c the letters behind your name(and you know thats why) then you are a very insecure person.

is this really neccessary?

 

[djnels01]

This thread is getting pretty childish people, c'mon...

 

[DD214_DOC]

If you were not such an idiot you would realize that OMM= Pm&R and sports medicine.

Um, no it isn't.

"Physiatrists diagnose injuries and problems of the musculoskeletal system by taking a thorough medical history of the patient and performing a complete physical exam. Further diagnostic testing may include laboratory testing, x-rays, MRI scans, electromyography and nerve conduction studies, as well as psychological testing.

Some physiatrists also perform injections of ligaments, muscles, bursae, joints, and specialized injections such as epidural injections or facet joint block injection. Eletromyography and nerve conduction studies and procedures may also be performed to diagnose injuries or diseases of nerves and muscles."

Not to mention one is a medical specialty and the other is a treatment modality.

Last I checked, OMM was exclusively manipulation.

Even if it they were the same, your statement has no relevance to the comment I made.

 

[rahulazcom]

If you were not such an idiot you would realize that OMM= Pm&R and sports medicine. If you would drop out of a U.S. school to go to a carrib school just b/c the letters behind your name(and you know thats why) then you are a very insecure person.

This is very true. I know a significant number of people in my class that don't have an interest in practicing OMM per say. However, they want to use their knowledge of OMM to provide them leverage in attaining a sports medicine fellowship or PM&R, which many DO's successfully do each year. At our school, it is now mandatory to participate in the TOPS high school H/P exams in the spring quarter. I really wish I loved sports medicine because AZCOM really has so many sports related EC's for people. One of our preceptors works for the Phoenix Suns and one of the OMM faculty we hired this year worked for the Milwaukee Brewers last year. I'm sure AZCOM isn't the only DO school structured this way. And it doesn't suprise me that we usually have about 3-4 people per year who match into orthopedic surgery and one of those spots is in a local allopathic position at Maricopa hospital. I don't necessarily agree that being an osteopath would give you a leg up in pursuing a field like radiology over an IMG but in regards to sports medicine related fields, I definitely think there is a significant advantage because I have seen it first hand.

 

[rahulazcom]

There are several people on valuemd who dropped out of DO school to attend a big three, or were admitted to DO and one of the big three and decided to attend in the Carib. The usual reasons cited are thinking OMM is useless, not wanting to do several weeks of FP rotations, and not wanting to be a DO.

How do you know these students didn't drop out or fail? I would have a hard time believing the reasons cited by those people. Yes, I know several people who think OMM is useless but it is only one class per week and 3-4 hours at that. It doesn't include a lot of exams and most osteopathic schools won't allow a student to fail OMM. You can usually remediate the class if you fail the exam. You could provide minimum effort or ignore the class completely and still pass the class so it doesn't make sense they would quit because of OMM>

Even the 12 week FP rotation requirement seems like an absurd reason to drop out of a DO school. FP is usually a very comfortable rotation and most students at U.S. allopathic schools love their FP rotation for this reason even if they have no desire to do FP. I have no interest in doing FP, but I would much rather do 12 weeks of FP versus 12 weeks of surgery any day especially since I have no desire to do surgery. And this requirement has not prevented students from matching into competitive surgical fields. At AZCOM, we have students that match into general surgery and other surgical related fields like orthopedic, urology, ENT and neurosurgery. You still have many elective months in which you can rotate in the field of your choosing.

And the not wanting to be a "DO" is the weakest excuse of all. If someone was so against becoming a DO then why would they bother enrolling in a DO school and taking all the pains to get admission into DO school in the first place.

To me it sounds like a typical case of sour grapes. The likely reason and the one that makes the most sense is someone was failing or not achieving the grades they wanted and decided to start over at a foreign school. Naturally, these people will make up reasons why they dropped as opposed to giving the real reason which is they were not doing as well as they expected. Maybe if a person dropped out of school the week after orientation and cited those reasons, I would believe that person. But if someone dropped after a year or even a semester, sorry but I have a hard time giving that person the benefit of the doubt.

 

[daelroy]

"A lot" seems a bit too generous. Probably more like, "some", or "a few". If most DOs really gave a crap about being a DO, then more than 5-10% would practice OMM.

Just like "most" students choose to attend one of the big three over a DO school. If so many of them truly had the choice of attending a DO school then their admission stats would be a lot higher than SGU's average 3.2 GPA and 24 MCAT. Remember that SGU is the most competitive of the carib schools. For a school that admits 650 students in a given year (325 per term), that suggests at least 200 SGU students in an academic year have sub 3.0 GPA's and 20 MCAT's if you account for a standard bell curve distribution. For anyone to suggest that most SGU students chose the IMG over DO is quite frankly a joke. The numbers don't lie. Even the least competitive DO school doesn't accept 100 let alone 200-300 students with sub 3.0 GPA's in a given year.

 

[DD214_DOC]

And the not wanting to be a "DO" is the weakest excuse of all. If someone was so against becoming a DO then why would they bother enrolling in a DO school and taking all the pains to get admission into DO school in the first place.

*smack* Bad human!

Since when is not wanting to be a DO a weak reason to not attend a DO school? Maybe they, like many others, believed they had rationalized to themselves that being a DO was what they wanted to be because it was their only option. Some people are mature and confident enough to get past this stage, sometimes after they have enrolled, and decide to pursue a different course.

Self rationalization is a powerful force, and one of the underlying causes of insecurity in many DO students. When people criticize or question the philosophy, OMM, or some other aspect of the profession, they are attacking the very heart of what someone has used to justify their attendance at a DO school instead of an MD school. Hence the knee-jerk reactions and stupid logic many use to defend it.

I've been in many discussions with religious fundamentalists and hardcore DO people. There was little difference between them.

 

[DD214_DOC]

Just like "most" students choose to attend one of the big three over a DO school. If so many of them truly had the choice of attending a DO school then their admission stats would be a lot higher than SGU's average 3.2 GPA and 24 MCAT. Remember that SGU is the most competitive of the carib schools. For a school that admits 650 students in a given year (325 per term), that suggests at least 200 SGU students in an academic year have sub 3.0 GPA's and 20 MCAT's if you account for a standard bell curve distribution. For anyone to suggest that most SGU students chose the IMG over DO is quite frankly a joke. Even the least competitive DO school doesn't accept 100 let alone 200-300 students with sub 3.0 GPA's in a given year.

Are you blind or what? PCSOM has numbers equal to SGU (3.2GPA and 22 MCAT, which is actually lower) and, given your logic, 50% of its class have GPA and numbers lower than the average. You conveniently didn't mention, using your logic, that 50% of each school's class have numbers ABOVE the average for each school.

The raw number of students in a range doesn't really matter, does it? What matters is the percentage and portion of the student body with numbers in a specific range. Yes, SGU probably has 150 students with crappy numbers and PCSOM may have 40. Either way, it still comprises 50% of each school's class. I could turn it around and say that SGU has more qualified students because 150 of its students have numbers in the upper-range, compared to PCSOM's 40. But it doesn't matter, because both are still 50%

SGU posts the distribution of GPA and MCAT on its website. Their GPA ranges from 2.4 - 4.0 and MCAT 15 - 35. Given the average of most DO schools being in the low-mid 20's, many accept students with sub-20 scores -- just like the Caribbean schools.

I don't see why it's such a big deal to accept that DO schools and the big three are quite similar in several respects. Both produce good doctors, so what does it matter?

 

[rahulazcom]

*smack* Bad human!

Since when is not wanting to be a DO a weak reason to not attend a DO school? Maybe they, like many others, believed they had rationalized to themselves that being a DO was what they wanted to be because it was their only option. Some people are mature and confident enough to get past this stage, sometimes after they have enrolled, and decide to pursue a different course.

Self rationalization is a powerful force, and one of the underlying causes of insecurity in many DO students. When people criticize or question the philosophy, OMM, or some other aspect of the profession, they are attacking the very heart of what someone has used to justify their attendance at a DO school instead of an MD school. Hence the knee-jerk reactions and stupid logic many use to defend it.

I've been in many discussions with religious fundamentalists and hardcore DO people. There was little difference between them.

So you are arguing that someone

1. Got a letter of recommendation from a DO
2. Memorized answers to why he or she wants to be a DO for the interview
3. Decided to spend 4 years of their life in a DO school
4. Commit thousands of dollars toward their DO education

and then at the end of their first semester or year in a DO school decided to say "Hell with it" I want to go to Ross because I don't want to be a DO."

Right!

I know several people who don't want to be DO's but these people usually don't take the pains to get admission to a DO school and the spend an entire semester or year in DO school before they realize they don't want to be DO's.

It just looks like you are reaching for straws at this point because there is very little you saying to support your argument. But if you want to continue to distract yourself and turn away from the cogent points I made by discussing self realization and other nonsense, fee free to do so. I have learned there are some in life who don't know when it's time to concede the other had a point. You are obviously one of these people.

 

[DD214_DOC]

So you are arguing that someone

1. Got a letter of recommendation from a DO
2. Memorized answers to why he or she wants to be a DO for the interview
3. Decided to spend 4 years of their life in a DO school
4. Commit thousands of dollars toward their DO education

1. isn't hard to do

2. shouldn't be required if you honestly want to be a DO. Wouldn't they come naturally?

3. can be the result of just wanting to be a doctor and accepting what you've been offered.

4. is required to attend any medical school.

I'm sure you can find many DO students who would have rather gone to a USMD school. Some prefer DO over the Caribbean for whatever reasons and stick out the stuff they don't like. Some decide having the MD is more important, so they choose the Caribbean over DO. A few enroll in DO and realize they'll never be happy with it, so they transfer to the Caribbean.

I don't see why this is so difficult to believe.

 

[allendo]

Um, no it isn't.

"Physiatrists diagnose injuries and problems of the musculoskeletal system by taking a thorough medical history of the patient and performing a complete physical exam. Further diagnostic testing may include laboratory testing, x-rays, MRI scans, electromyography and nerve conduction studies, as well as psychological testing.

Some physiatrists also perform injections of ligaments, muscles, bursae, joints, and specialized injections such as epidural injections or facet joint block injection. Eletromyography and nerve conduction studies and procedures may also be performed to diagnose injuries or diseases of nerves and muscles."

Not to mention one is a medical specialty and the other is a treatment modality.

Last I checked, OMM was exclusively manipulation.

Even if it they were the same, your statement has no relevance to the comment I made.

Ummmm yes it is! And I don't know where you checked last but muscle energy is a bigger part of OMM than manipulation. Look on the sideline of any sporting event and you see the docs doing muscle energy.

 

[daelroy]

Are you blind or what? PCSOM has numbers equal to SGU (3.2GPA and 22 MCAT, which is actually lower) and, given your logic, 50% of its class have GPA and numbers lower than the average. You conveniently didn't mention, using your logic, that 50% of each school's class have numbers ABOVE the average for each school.

Sigh! Pay attention because you missed this the first time. SGU accepts 410 more students than PCSOM in a given year too. Are you suggesting the chances of being admitted to PCSOM is the same as SGU despite SGU accepting 410 more students in a given year? That was the point you were trying to make earlier in this thread. You simply looked at the average admission stats without bothering to inspect volume. Even if you apply the same standard deviation to PCSOM, only 80 people in their class would be admitted with those same substandard admission stats. That's still quite a bit less than the 215 or so at SGU. So let me ask you, which is easier applying for one of the 215 spots out of 650 or applying for one of 80 spots out of 240. As you can see, it's still much easier getting into SGU than PCSCOM.

This case is closed.

 

[DD214_DOC]

Sigh! Pay attention because you missed this the first time. SGU accepts 410 more students than PCSOM in a given year too. Are you suggesting the chances of being admitted to PCSOM is the same as SGU despite SGU accepting 410 more students in a given year? That was the point you were trying to make earlier in this thread.

Since when did I say that? I said the numbers are similar. I have said the schools are quite similar in numbers and residency. I never said it wasn't easier to get into one over the other.

 

[rahulazcom]

1. isn't hard to do

2. shouldn't be required if you honestly want to be a DO. Wouldn't they come naturally?

So allopathic students don't prepare for their interview and just walk in and wing it because they have always wanted to be an MD their whole life. Please, many of us are interested in OMM but we don't know enough about it to offer coherent answers in an interview. You prepare for it like you prepare for any interview.

3. can be the result of just wanting to be a doctor and accepting what you've been offered.

But you can go to the Caribbean if you just want to be a doctor. It doesn't make sense that one who just wants to be a doctor wouldn't give serious thought to becoming a DO before just starting school as you are suggesting.

4. is required to attend any medical school.

but at the cost of giving up a years' tuition or spending an extra year to start over at a foreign school.

I'm sure you can find many DO students who would have rather gone to a USMD school. Some prefer DO over the Caribbean for whatever reasons and stick out the stuff they don't like. Some decide having the MD is more important, so they choose the Caribbean over DO. A few enroll in DO and realize they'll never be happy with it, so they transfer to the Caribbean.

I'm not blind. I know many people at DO schools would have preferred to have been an M.D. But the point is these don't quit and drop out of school to attend SGU for the initials either. Even the ones who aren't happy with their decision will probably stick with it due to the financial costs they have endured and the sheer hassle of having to start over at another school.

Like I said, the reason that makes much more sense is they failed out of DO school or were not happy with their grades and thought they could do better at a foreign school where they perceive the competition to be less even if that perception is inaccurate.

 

[OSUdoc08]

This still doesn't change the fact that OSU boasts far higher admission statistics than any of the Big 3 schools. Their average GPA was a 3.5 and their MCAT was a 27. Are you suggesting these students wouldn't somehow be admitted to SGU or any of the Big 3?

http://www.healthsciences.okstate.edu/student/admissions/entrance.htm

Anyone could be admitted into the Big 3, regardless of score. They have no admissions standards.

 

[daelroy]

Since when did I say that? I said the numbers are similar. I have said the schools are quite similar in numbers and residency. I never said it wasn't easier to get into one over the other.

At the beginning of the thread. You compared the Big 3 to DO schools with the weakest entrance and postulated that one's chances of being admitted to SGU was nearly equal to that of PCSOM disregarding the fact that SGU accepts 410 more students in a given year. You simply forgot to account for that fact and instead relied merely on the average entrance stats. In short, you made a mistake in your analysis.

Now are you going to deny all of this? I wouldn't be suprised if you did.

 

[DD214_DOC]

Nope, all I see is a list of admission numbers and a reference to match lists at the end of page one. No reference to anything regarding chances of admission being equal, only the similarity in the lower-tier DO student bodies to the Caribbean student bodies and their similar match lists, indicating that there probably isn't a huge advantage to attending a lower-tier DO school to the Caribbean (suggesting indirectly that only attending the mid-to-high tier schools over Carib will really matter.) A lower chance of being admitted isn't really going to matter in the long run anyways.

The first specific reference to PCSOM was on this page, and it was regarding the supposed monumental difference in the average numbers of the student bodies of each school, which has been the point throughout almost every one of my replies on this thread.

Maybe you inferred something that wasn't there.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Anyone could be admitted into the Big 3, regardless of score. They have no admissions standards.

that's actually not true -- they do reject people. check out valuemd.com to see that. if everyone could get into ross, auc or sgu, why should anyone go to st. matthews or mua or whatever? they wouldn't.

 

[OSUdoc08]

that's actually not true -- they do reject people. check out valuemd.com to see that. if everyone could get into ross, auc or sgu, why should anyone go to st. matthews or mua or whatever? they wouldn't.

Although true, it's way easier to get in there than most DO schools.

 

[goldfish85]

Anyone could be admitted into the Big 3, regardless of score. They have no admissions standards.

i know your for DO and all. but really bashing the big 3 wont make you any better.

if you dont know about them then dont make such silly statements. look at sgu's and auc's avg. they are above 3.0 and sgu i think is a 25 mcat.. it compares to a few DO schools. but who cares? what matters is where the school takes you not how easy you can get in.

furthermore, no they have rejections. maybe not as much as osu but they do have quite a few.. ive seen a few post it on the mdvalue forum.

yea i know they are for profit.. accept more and get more $$$... but if you think about it, they are more of a company, you pay, you work, you get your product (an MD, US clinicals, US residency, etc)....

and all they can advertise is there products. so i applaud the big 3 since they have been quite successful.

also i like the DOs they have a great system but its people like you which needs to stop this insanity. yes your school is harder to get into. no you are not better than me if i got to one of the big three.

but im really forgetting the point of this whole debate? what is the main point?

jkd, i would just give up with arguing with all of them. its like arguing with my gf, you cant win my friend.. not because your arguement is flawed or wrong (actually i reallly think your right in my OPINION) but they will not take NO for an answer. I mean werent they just accusing AUC of promoting invalid stats on their site? haha, i think some even accused US News of false stats too.... ok well maybe there right or wrong but there not far off.

i mean seriously, this arguement is so ridiculous lets just end it and laugh about it.

you all are arguing about 3 carribean schools compared to 25?26? DO schools. haha you know what though, you must admit. that SGU has one hell of an advertising department. i mean i know people (non-premeds) which have heard of sgu and think its a decent option for their kids, which do not know what a DO is... its pretty impressive how ONE med school is so damn popular.
anyways ill stop before i start another war.

-m

 

[DD214_DOC]

*shrug*

I don't really care about winning an argument or trying to skew opinions one way or the other -- they're all just opinions.

Personally, I like the DO profession and would gladly go there over the Caribbean, but I'm not going to cry if my only option ends up being the Caribbean. I'm more concerned with the location of the school and how living in the area will effect my family than I am prestige or some weird loyalty to an organization. I want to be a physician, preferably a DO, but if the only way to get there is the Caribbean then so be it.

My opinion is that everything else is up to me; med schools are a tool to get where I want, but I still have to put the tool to use. I'm not going to magically be a better doctor because of the program I was educated in.

The only thing I don't like is when people spread false information, regardless of whether it's about DO, USMD, or Caribbean MD. DOs have a bad rap because of false information that was spread about them, yet DO students do the same to the Caribbean schools, then wonder why people think DOs have chips on their shoulders.

 

[goldfish85]

*shrug*

I don't really care about winning an argument or trying to skew opinions one way or the other -- they're all just opinions.

Personally, I like the DO profession and would gladly go there over the Caribbean, but I'm not going to cry if my only option ends up being the Caribbean. I'm more concerned with the location of the school and how living in the area will effect my family than I am prestige or some weird loyalty to an organization. I want to be a physician, preferably a DO, but if the only way to get there is the Caribbean then so be it.

My opinion is that everything else is up to me; med schools are a tool to get where I want, but I still have to put the tool to use. I'm not going to magically be a better doctor because of the program I was educated in.

The only thing I don't like is when people spread false information, regardless of whether it's about DO, USMD, or Caribbean MD. DOs have a bad rap because of false information that was spread about them, yet DO students do the same to the Caribbean schools, then wonder why people think DOs have chips on their shoulders.

i agree, i hate it when people say "auc forces students to the uk for clinicals", or "your stuck in fp if you go to sgu", or "they accept anyone no matter how low your stats are", or "you dont need an MCAT I know a friend and he didnt need an mcat so the school req.s no mcat! that my evidence" or there are cows in front of super markets"--well that last one might be true for some? i dunno.. i doubt auc has cows in front of their stores? but really this is ridiculous...

either way, i love my fellow DOs, i see them as future peers but not superiors. i just hope they can do the same for once.

 

[rack]

off topic, but i thought you got in somewhere jkd (note the rank title above avatar.. holy crap i got in!!)... where did you get in?

 

[MD Rapper]

i agree, i hate it when people say "auc forces students to the uk for clinicals", or "your stuck in fp if you go to sgu", or "they accept anyone no matter how low your stats are", or "you dont need an MCAT I know a friend and he didnt need an mcat so the school req.s no mcat! that my evidence" or there are cows in front of super markets"--well that last one might be true for some? i dunno.. i doubt auc has cows in front of their stores? but really this is ridiculous...

either way, i love my fellow DOs, i see them as future peers but not superiors. i just hope they can do the same for once.

Yup.. the amount of misinformation about Caribbean schools is much greater than DO schools.