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D.O. vs. caribbean?
Started by Boots229
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JKDMed said:
I like your message but I think you are being a little hypocritical since you have spread false information about DO's or shall I remind you of the only "10% that supposedly choose to go DO" as you put it.
And in defense of my DO colleagues, I never got the impression any of them were saying the Carribean wasn't a worthwhile option. I don't think it's fair for you to say they are spreading false information when they were just responding to the assertions you and others made in regards to DO schools. I don't want DO's being depicted as the bad guys while you were victims. Everyone has strong opinions on this issue so any attempt to act like you were the bigger person is unfair.
Anyway I apologize as well if I gave the impression I was putting down IMG's by arguing with you. I just don't believe some of the excuses given by students who left DO school for whatever reason and matriculated at Caribbean schools. It doesn't make much sense that someone who supposedly did well at a DO school would quit after a year because the idea of being a DO suddenly didn't sit well with them. It shouldn't take a year of DO school for one to figure out they don't want to be a DO and to forgo a year of tuition to repeat classes and start over at a Caribbean school. That doesn't make sense unless the person wasn't faring well academically. And given their situation, I wouldn't expect them to tell the truth why they are no longer studying at a DO school.
I think everyone has to make a decision based on their personal situation. There is no right or wrong answer. I too abhor misinformation.
why you guys compar Do to caribbean MD, both of them lead to the same end which is helping pepole and making differnet in our communities. who care which way is better, I make myself good or bad doctor not my school. I graduate from unkown undergraduate school but I have publication and I have been working in the bigest pharmacuitical company in the world.
everybody is different, DO might be ok for someone but for other is not.
I believe that we should give cradit to the students in the caribbean for their motivation and detamination to succssed. we all will be a part in hard working doctors community.
please do not forget why you are going to be a doctor.
everybody is different, DO might be ok for someone but for other is not.
I believe that we should give cradit to the students in the caribbean for their motivation and detamination to succssed. we all will be a part in hard working doctors community.
please do not forget why you are going to be a doctor.
PlasticMan said:
lol, the whole not having thumbs thing makes opening bottles an impossibility.
Ok everyone...I hope this brings some closure to this discussion....you can argue anecdotal facts all you want, but here are the numbers from the NRMP:
http://www.nrmp.org/res_match/tables/table2_05.pdf
if the link isn't working.... go to www.nrmp.org, then click residency match, then click data tables...table 2
Here's a brief summary of the situation:
The avg rate of US IMG's placing into US Allo residencies was around 50% unmatched over the past 5 years....while the DO rate was only around 30% unmatched....and this doesn't even take into account that DO's have their own AOA residencies...
I wish they were both lower, but facts are facts...
http://www.nrmp.org/res_match/tables/table2_05.pdf
if the link isn't working.... go to www.nrmp.org, then click residency match, then click data tables...table 2
Here's a brief summary of the situation:
The avg rate of US IMG's placing into US Allo residencies was around 50% unmatched over the past 5 years....while the DO rate was only around 30% unmatched....and this doesn't even take into account that DO's have their own AOA residencies...
I wish they were both lower, but facts are facts...
Taus said:
I have seen this list before. Its only problem is that is groups all of the foreign schools together into one category, which isn't really what we've been discussing. The "Big Three" claim to have match rates of 80%-90%, but who knows how accurate that is. Graduating students have claimed to know none, or at most a couple, students who failed to match into something.
I'm surprised that so many DO students don't match into allo programs.
JKDMed said:
That's because many DO's match into osteopathic programs particularly in the more competitive residencies.
If someone wanted to argue that IMG's have similar succes to students of the 2 or 3 least competitive DO schools in regards to the match, I really couldn't deny or confirm that allegation. I only have issues when someone tries to blur the facts. The fact remains that it is still more difficult to gain admission to even the weakest DO schools compared to the Big 3 as you put it. A school that accepts 3 times the number of students in a given year during 2 or 3 separate occassions in a given year will be easier to get into than a school that accepts 1/3 the number of students once per year. You can't argue with those facts.
JKDMed said:
I don't think it matters which DO school one studies at. Maybe they discriminate among Caribbean schools but I haven't heard of hospitals doing the same in regards to DO schools. Maybe this is why your answers are framed in the manner that they are. IMG's seem really intent on distinguishing themselves from the weaker foreign medical schools. DO's don't really do that and thus far I have not heard any student claiming they wished they attended a particular DO over another because of the enormous advantages it brought. Sure, there are regional biases as there are with any medical school in this country. Hypothetically speaking, if two DO students with similar statistics applied nationally from two separate DO schools, I don't think one student would be favored over the other based on what school he or she attended. Again, that might be the case in regards to SGU vs. Ross or St. Matthews? I really don't know or care but I think if one attended PCSOM or LECOM, he or she would have the same potential to succeed as any DO.
What I do know is that 3 of the programs I rotated at does not make distinctions between IMG's. An SGU graduate will not have an advantage over a St. Eustasius graduate and vice versa. Maybe this has to do with these programs being located in California. None of them have a history of accepting a lot of IMG's. Maybe if this program was in New Jersey or Brooklyn, the situation would be different. I'm not suggesting these programs are indicative of all programs. But it makes you wonder how many other programs view IMG's in the same manner if these three programs share this policy.
Now it makes sense. JKDMED is still a pre-med student. As I have repeated many times, pre-meds are the only ones who still believe in the anti-DO dogma. He hasn't done clinical rotations or worked alongside DO's or M.D.'s for that matter. He hasn't interviewed for residency so his opinions are based on hearsay and not actual experience. I knew he sounded like a pre-med. Only pre-meds rehash the DO horror stories as if they were talking about Bloody Mary or some urban legend. He will learn. Cut him some slack guys.
rahulazcom said:
I'm not trying to argue with those facts, nobody is. That argument was never made on this thread, or at least not that I have seen.
novacek88 said:
Actually, I'm not a premed student. I graduated several months ago and have been working.
Here we go with the, "I hate DOs" rhetoric.
You also live in a fantasy world if you think that DOs are regarded as equals to USMD everywhere in the country. Someone posted a link to a practice that was hiring a few months ago, and the ad specifically stated no DOs and no IMGs. Not very common, but evidence that the medical world isn't the DO-friendly utopia you seem to think it is.
rahulazcom said:
I found this last night, and the data is quite fascinating. These numbers come straight from the NRMP (look at Table 2).
http://www.nrmp.org/res_match/data_tables.html
As you can see, DOs fare much better in the match than either USFMGs or IMGs. As a matter of fact, looking at the data from 1999 to 2005, roughly HALF of all USFMG applicants do NOT match!
This isn't opinion, this isn't bias, this is hard data straight from the NRMP. Can't argue with those numbers. What I found even more interesting is that 5th pathway students from Mexico do much better than the rest of the USFMGs (it's official: go to UAG instead of the big three!).
Shinken said:
Did you read what I wrote earlier? You cannot say that attending the big three is worse than any DO school because of the combined match rate of ALL USIMGs, including those from Latin America, Asia, and Eastern Europe.
AUC, SGU, and Ross all advertise match rates at around 80%-90%. I'm inclined to believe these numbers, as I have never seen any, "I did not match" rioting coming from any of the three schools. Think about it; if these schools really only had about a 50/50 chance of matching after graduation, they would not have been in business for over 30 years. The only way I can see them lying would be to include those who scrambled in their match percentage.
Besides the point above, the difference in match rate between osteopaths and ALL USIMGs is less than 20% in almost every year. Plus you can scramble, so it's not like you'll be unemployed.
JKDMed said:
Exactly... this is the point I wanted to bring up...
The overall IMG match rate is obviously low... there are many low quality caribbean schools, not to mention people who aren't competitive from schools in other countries who wanted to try and just get a US spot. We are not in argument about this.
The point JKD and I are trying to make is that the "Big 3" are the ones that are saving that 50% figure from being say, 35%. If you go to any of the websites of Ross, AUC, and SGU, you'll see that their match rates are in the 90% range (of those that complete the program, which is many... remember, only a 5 to 10% attrition rate at the "Big 3" schools.) I believe SGU in particular is like 98% match rate or something.
BOTTOM LINE: Caribbean schools get their "bad" reputation from their lack of standardization. The "Big 3" schools are well organized, have pretty decent matches, and are churning out successful graduates every year. The other ones tend to be hole-in-the-wall business start-ups with no adequate facilities, disorganization, poor matches, and horrible teaching. I would even venture to say that if you can't get into a "Big 3" school, you may want to reconsider your plans of becoming a physician.
The main thing I want to see from this thread is not agreement that the Caribbean is necessarily a better option, but that St. George's, Ross, and AUC are pretty good bets for your medical education for several reasons.
- Their graduates tend to match relatively well, and often go on to specialize like any other phyisican.
- Teaching is sometimes BETTER at Caribbean schools because the professors that they have come down to the islands aren't really concerned with research, but they just truly love to teach the subject matter. I'm sure DO schools are similar because of the less emphasis on research, but I'm talking in comparison to US MD schools.
- They give people a chance to become physicians who otherwise may not have been able to get into a US allopathic school and still want an MD. BFD what their motivations are to get an MD over the DO... If we are looking at US MD admissions, we can see that there are a very limited number of spots (and growing)... I mean, there has only been like 1 new MD school in the last 20 years or something opening up.... and the American population just keeps increasing. We all know the admissions process can be unfair and somewhat arbitrary.... so people go to the Caribbean and most come back alright, especially if they are highly self-motivated.
One last unrelated point - People should also point out that having an MD is sometimes of large interest in many big cities such as Los Angeles, San Francisco, and New York. DO's don't quite have the pull in these places that they do in other areas of the country. So this may be one reason why some people may choose to go to the Carib over going to a DO school. Here in California, I personally know quite a few people who had the stats for a DO school hands down (I used to study with them), but because of the higher DO stigma in Cali (and the extreme difficulty in getting a US allopathic spot coming out of this state), they just picked up and went foreign without any hesitation... What I'm trying to say is that there is still a group of people out there who don't even consider DO before going foreign.
jbone said:WTF??? 😕 😕 Please explain. Those cows are making me hungry!!SPAM=Stuff Posing As Meat
A friend of mine that I used to work with now attends SGU. I asked her to send me some pictures of the campus and the surrounding area, and that is one that I got. It is one of the shopping centers that many of the med students use. And yes, I realize that having cows roaming freely around the city does not negatively reflect the school itself, but it just makes you remember that you are not in the US.
Ah, I thought Spiceland Mall was in Dominica. Guess I was wrong.
Someone should post pics of the island AUC is on. That place isn't really much different from the US. It has Taco Bell, Dominoes, KFC, tons of resorts, hotels, casinos, etc.
Apparently a lot of celebs visit St Maarten as well. I was reading a blog from a student there who went to a bar after exams to drink. He was listening to some guy playing the guitar. After the musician broke from set for a break, the student realized it was Eric Clapton.
It's a wonder anyone there actually graduates.
Someone should post pics of the island AUC is on. That place isn't really much different from the US. It has Taco Bell, Dominoes, KFC, tons of resorts, hotels, casinos, etc.
Apparently a lot of celebs visit St Maarten as well. I was reading a blog from a student there who went to a bar after exams to drink. He was listening to some guy playing the guitar. After the musician broke from set for a break, the student realized it was Eric Clapton.
It's a wonder anyone there actually graduates.
MD Rapper said:
Foreign Grads (that are US citizens) are just as bad off or even worse in these situtations.
Your comments above seem to merely be opinion and not supported by evidence. This would explain why some of your rationalizations are incorrect.
MD Rapper said:
I don't buy that!
(1) If the big three are so great and are "saving" the figure from being lower, then why are 5th pathway students more successful than other USFMGs? According to your argument, 5th pathway should be lower than USFMGs but instead they're higher.
(2) The main argument that people that go abroad use is that the DO degree is so low in prestige and there's so much bias and program directors would much rather have an MD resident. Why are DOs as a group CONSISTENTLY higher in match rates than all others? (5th pathway, USFMGs and IMGs).
There will always be excuses, but the numbers don't lie. Do a search and find the breakdown for USFMGs applying to the match. You'll find that the bulk of applicants actually do come from the "big three" and all other countries have sprinkles here and there. How many US students do you know that are fluent enough in a foreign language to attend schools anywhere else but the Caribbean?
Besides, saying that "there's always the scramble" isn't a great argument. "Yes! Come to my medical school! If you don't match that's OK...there's always the scramble!" Doesn't look too good in a brochure.
I knew that the numbers would mean nothing to some people, and that's OK. I'm sure the big three are happy to know that the published data from the NRMP is not preventing them from filling their classes to the brim and making money.
JO300 said:
Can we scrounge up $50 and get this guy an english lesson. For god's sake I hope you werent born in the US. Your english leaves a lot to be desired and it would be a shame if it were your first language. If it isnt then all is forgiven.
More food for thought for those who think that a 50% unsuccessful match rate is not possible for USFMGs.
http://www.pages.drexel.edu/~dmd42/annuals/stats/experf.html
According to the ECFMG, the stats for students with foreign medical degrees that passed the USMLE on the first try:
2002: USFMGs = 51% / non-USFMGs = 67%
2001: USFMGs = 55% / non-USFMGs = 68%
2000: USFMGs = 61.6% / non-USFMGs = 65.8%
The trend is downwards for USFMGs (why is that?). I wonder what the numbers are for 2003 - 2005.
Would it be unreasonable to say that since roughly half the USFMGs that sit for the USMLE actually pass it on the first try, that they also have roughly a 50% success rate in the match? (those numbers include the big three as well). I'm sure people that don't match, whether they graduated from the big three or not, don't want to shout to the world "Hey! I didn't match! WooHoo!" They're probably too busy scrambling and figuring out how to pay back loans.
I'm not trying to stir trouble, just providing food for thought. To those considering going abroad for a medical degree: Research your options carefully and look at the numbers.
http://www.pages.drexel.edu/~dmd42/annuals/stats/experf.html
According to the ECFMG, the stats for students with foreign medical degrees that passed the USMLE on the first try:
2002: USFMGs = 51% / non-USFMGs = 67%
2001: USFMGs = 55% / non-USFMGs = 68%
2000: USFMGs = 61.6% / non-USFMGs = 65.8%
The trend is downwards for USFMGs (why is that?). I wonder what the numbers are for 2003 - 2005.
Would it be unreasonable to say that since roughly half the USFMGs that sit for the USMLE actually pass it on the first try, that they also have roughly a 50% success rate in the match? (those numbers include the big three as well). I'm sure people that don't match, whether they graduated from the big three or not, don't want to shout to the world "Hey! I didn't match! WooHoo!" They're probably too busy scrambling and figuring out how to pay back loans.
I'm not trying to stir trouble, just providing food for thought. To those considering going abroad for a medical degree: Research your options carefully and look at the numbers.
EctopicFetus said:
Said the english major who neglected the apostrophes in weren't and isn't. Maybe I can sign both of you up for a good lesson? 🙄
Shinken said:
Good grief, you're STILL using the category of ALL USIMGs to generalize to the big three! This is THREE schools with relatively high match and USMLE pass rates being thrown into a pool of dozens and dozens of schools with very low match and pass rates that are more typical of foreign schools. This is how averages work you know.
AVG(2 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 10 + 10 + 10) = 4.1
We haven't been talking about all USIMGs, we have been talking about graduates exclusively from the big three. It's incredibly stupid to lump them all into a single category since the big three are very atypical for what they are.
Shinken said:
(1) 5th pathways are more successful over other IMGs because most of the non-big three schools suck. They are LESS successful than the big three.
(2) They're not once you separate the big three schools out of the entire pool of USIMGs.
You're using the numbers for all USIMGs and generalizing to the big three. Get it right or stop posting.
Now children...it is obvious that one side is not going to convince the other, so can we not just agree to disagree. Both sides have made valid points, or at least attempted to do so. Is there really anything else that can be said?
Yes, I think this horse is duly beaten. I'm gonna close now.
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