Originally posted by oceandocDO
For the love of god, another DO vs MD debate.
Unfortunately that's what this has degenerated into. Again I reiterate that the original purpose of this was to ask you to define the osteopathic philosophy and the allopathic philosophy. Once you did that I had hoped you would then compare and contrast them, proving to everyone out there in internet land that osteopathic and allopathic physicians were, in fact, different. You thus far have yet to write anything solid that doesn't include the phrase, "well you can't really understand it until you're a part of it."
Gee, well, on with the show!
Do you know how the HOD works? If the AOA were to have an offical seat and "voice", it would be on the same voting level as the ACFP, for example. Osteopathic medicine is not a specialty college with the AMA. Your arguement of the invitation as an "offer to give input on the process" holds no water, as D.Os can already do this as members of the AMA.
The only idea I can identify as being a good, solid reason for sitting in on the House of Delegates meetings is so that you bring the very-specific concerns of your group to the floor for debate and hopefully to effect change in AMA policy.
Your reasoning doesn't make sense, as your model of how policy is changed within the AMA is akin to having an area of the United States that is DEVOID of any Congressional seats (i.e., no seats in the House of Representatives and no seats in the Senate). Now you can argue that these people in this area who lack representation can still effect change -- by being citizens of the United States (thus having a voice, thus being a "member) -- but that will be pretty damn hard. The whole point of having a House of Delegates is so that the AMA doesn't have to deal with the hundreds of thousands of voices that would be coming in suggesting this policy change or that policy change. Without seats in the House of Delegates, DO members who wish to change AMA policy affecting the osteopathic community will have a pretty hard time. In fact, they won't even really have that opportunity.
My guess is that the AOA's refusal of taking any seats in the House of Delegates stems from the idea that the AOA is the sole governing body of the 50,000 osteopathic physicians in the US. While this is true the AOA fails to realize that most of its new graduates are training in programs affected by AMA policy. This is a GUESS.
Thanks for the advice on reading the article. I wonder if you practice what you preach. The article claims that this study counters what earlier studies have stated. I dont know where your Labor Dept stats come from, as you offer no evidence, but I'd rather have a leading member of the profession offer his advice over the feds opinion. What motives would this gentleman have in erroneously stating the facts of physician supply?
I never invalidated this study. The fact that this study has been published, however, does not mean everyone must follow its lead. Studies are published and it's up to the scientific community to vaidate it or not. I never wrote that the author of this particular study "erroneously" stated any facts. I simply wrote that these authors used a different model and that the US Department of Labor's Bureau of Labor Statistics still predicts a physician surplus in the coming years.
As for the source of these, try going to the Department of Labor website and following the links.
None that I can think of. What motives would the government have? Hmmmm... lots actually. Most importantly, they use it as evidence why more residency programs should not be funded. I can go on.
And on, and on, I'm sure. If your basis for rejecting data from a federal agency is simply that there's some big government conspiracy, then I pity you and the profession that decided to inherit and train you.
While we're on a tangent and discussing the idea that data is required, can you show me data that shows OMT, in certain instances, has similar effect to pharmacotherapy? This isn't a trick question. Studies such as this exist, but I'm wondering if you can find it.
What private school in Florida was denied accredidation? Again, you bark at me for not offering evidence.
I provide evidence when it is requested. And I must admit, I misspoke. The private school was Duquesne University in Pittsburgh, PA, and the other school was Florida State University in Tallahassee. As for the rest, I'm not about to do your homework for you.
One example: Hahnemann came within weeks of closing its doors a few years ago before Drexel came in and saved them. Most med schools live paycheck to paycheck and are a governmental budget cut away from severe trouble.
Hmmm... "Hahnemann" [sic] was in financial trouble because of its clinical enterprise, not because the med school was running out of money. The merger between Hahnehmann University and the Medical College of Pennsylvania was a cost-cutting measure, one replicated throughout the country (NYU and Mount Sinai, Columbia and Cornell, etc.) to save their respective clinical enterprises and not their medical schools. Sheesh...
As for how much my school has banked away, it is not my school that's in financial trouble. The clinical arm of the State University of New York (the three university hospitals in Brookyln, Syracuse, and Stony Brook), however, according to a recent article in the New York Times, is in the red. The reason why they are in financial trouble has to do with many factors, many of the same ones shared with other teaching institutions.
I love whan the only arguement is to act confused as to the tennets of each schools philosophy.
Trust me, this ain't no act. I've been a part of SDN for over six or seven years now (when it used to be called "O-net") and never has an osteopathic student or physician ever defined the osteopathic philosophy clearly. And we, meaning those who discussed this earlier, concluded that the philosophies were not all that different but that we must have missed something. If there was not a difference in philosophy, how can one justify the existence of two separate, but equal professions in healthcare? Now if you can define it, that'll be great.
I thought I was pretty good in explaining it. A D.O. is inherently trained to be a generalist first and a specialist second. Evidence of this is the rotating internship, something that MDs actually created but relinquished as their trainining objectives changed.
Generalist first, and specialist second, huh? So this means that DO students are trained to do everything (generalist) and then can chosoe to do something really specific (specialist). Now what about the MD students? Do they not also learn all that stuff (third and fourth years between MD and DO schools are virtually identical)?
The rotating internship isn't even a commonality amongst your people. Not all osteopathic physicians seek the rotating internship, so what about those DOs? Are they, then, not really DOs because they're not "generalists first, specialists second?"
OMT is a tiny part of the overall contrast between the philosophies. Whether or not D.O.s use it, the extra, hands-on training in biomechanics, kinesiology, lymphatic function, nervous system influence, etc does not hurt one's medical knowledge. I dont blame you for not understanding this, but please dont voluntarily hang our hat on OMT as being the basis for the profession. It's a supplement, an extra tool, that's all.
So the difference between the MDs and the DOs is the extra-training in OMT, biomechanics, kinesiology, lymphatic function, and nervous system influence?
Are there other DOs on SDN who agree with this?
The new D.O. school in virginia is opening with a foundation of $100 million. This money doesnt come from the AOA, or even some rich D.O. It came from private foundations who recognize the shortage of physicians and can forcast the direction that the approach to a patient is taking . . . Do you think that if these foundations went to the AMA with $100 million they would be told to go home? Ummm, no.
And I'm sure you have a source to back up your claim that some foundation that founded the DO school at Virginia Tech did a study on physician shortage and patient preference in regards to practice philosophy, right?
Look to the example of Duquesne University in Florida, around 1998 or 1999, and their bid to found a new medical school.
I look forward to bringing my approach to a patient to any hospital, whether it have MDs or DOs "sit in on meetings". I think DOs and MDs should work shoulder to shoulder.
And they do now.
Different viewpoints and approaches are very healthy for the system, and thus for patients. Choice is what this country is all about. Competition is something that has been lacking in the medical realm for 75+ years. I look forward to the challenge.
What competition? Between whom?
I've worked with NYCOM students on the floor, and through our discussions on the differences in philosophies, we found nothing different. They approached the patient no differently than the way I approached the patient. Their presentations to the attending were similar to my presentations. They didn't speak of "somatic dysfunction" or of "blocked lymphatics" as the cause of the problem. They quoted Harrison's, not DiGiovanni!
You'll see when you finally start third-year that your expectation of the differences between our two professions is virtually nonexistent. Oh, and I wouldn't suggest you begin using that osteopathic-lingo when you present to your attending.