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Tippytoe

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AOS March 2012 Newsletter


Many people within the profession are asking how many practicing optometrists are needed to meet the needs of the population of the United States and whether the plethora of new "for profit" optometry schools which have opened, and those planned to open, over the last few years will produce an over supply of O.D.s. There is a significant concern that too many practicing O.D.s could negatively affect the ability of practicing O.D.s to earn a reasonable income. This is especially important for younger O.D.s who are graduating with an average debt of $150,000.00 to $200,000.00. How will they be able to pay their student loan and cost of living bills if they are unable to earn an appropriate income?
Let us evaluate some of the pertinent facts which may help us determine if there are too many schools graduating too many O.D.s.

There are currently 21 optometry schools, public and private, open in the U.S. and its territories with another proposed school in Virginia which is tentatively scheduled to enroll its first class in 2014. Four new schools have enrolled students in the last few years with some of them now graduating their first group of optometrists.

In 2012, according to the Association of Schools and Colleges of Optometry (ASCO), the 21 current schools had 2545 individuals apply for the 1797 first year spots available. If the Virginia school opens, that will add approximately 48 more students per year to the initial enrollment for a total of 1845 students per class. For the 2011- 2012 class year, there were a total of 6289 optometry students enrolled in the 20 schools operating at that time. That represented a 14.6% increase in total enrollment since the 2006-2007 class year. With the opening of the new school in Massachusetts and the proposed school in Virginia, that number will increase by approximately 112 students per class year for a total of approximately 6737 optometry students once the two newest schools enroll all four class years. In 2011, there were 1308 graduates. In a few short years, with 22 schools graduating students, that number could very easily exceed 1600 per year which is a 22% increase in graduates per year compared to 2011.

With a projected annual average of 850 O.D.s retiring by 2015, we will soon have an average net gain of 750 O.D.s coming into the marketplace every year. In 2008, there were 34,800 practicing O.D.s and, at the present rate of growth, the projection is that there will be 43,200 practicing O.D.s by 2018 which is a 24% increase in 10 years. It appears that the RAND and Abt studies were both correct in predicting an oversupply of O.D.s which began a few years ago and seems to be getting worse with the opening of each new college of optometry.

A couple of issues which have to be closely scrutinized regarding all of the schools is the level of clinical experience they will be able to provide to the students while enrolled and also whether the schools will be able to obtain the necessary skilled teaching staff. It will be especially interesting to see how the school in Virginia, which is opening in a very rural low population density area of the state, will be able to meet these critical needs.

If the schools cannot meet the didactic and clinical education requirements for their students, then we may see a situation where the NBEO pass rates begin to decline or more graduates just barely being able to pass these board exams. What effect will that have on the quality of the graduates at a time when O.D.s are taking on a greater role in the medical eye care of their patients every day? Only time will tell.

Now let us evaluate some practice income and patient load data for the average O.D.

According to the "Review of Optometry" 2012 income survey, the average net income per O.D. was ...

$121,182.00 in 2010. In 2011, the average gross income was $137,806.00. If you take into account just the Federal tax rate of 28% for that income level, that yields a net income of $99,216.00 which is an 18% decrease in net income year over year. That is for an average work week of 39.4 hours per doctor.

According to the American Optometric Association Research and Information Center, the overall average of patients, of all types, treated per week per O.D. in 2012 was 60 which means that the average O.D. saw 1.52 patients per hour. Compare that to ophthalmologists who average seeing about 150 patients per week according to "Medscape." When you also consider that most O.D.s now accept reduced examination fees for 61% of their patients, due to the prevalence of vision care plans, you can see how hard it has become for the average practitioner to maintain and increase their level of annual income.

So what do all of these facts and figures show us?

1) Considering the sophisticated examination technology available to O.D.s today, it would seem that the average O.D. is fairly inefficient. Even seeing an average of 3 patients per hour would result in greater gross and net income and reduce per patient chair time costs significantly. Increasing the number of patients seen per hour would also actually add to the over supply of O.D.s above and beyond the over supply caused by the opening of more schools.

2) Many will argue that the aging population, especially of the "baby boomer" generation, will result in a significantly increased demand for optometric services. However, if you consider that most people in that generation are now in their early 60s, the majority of them have already had to enter the eye care market, if they hadn't before, due to presbyopia and normal aging changes of their eyes. As this group gets older, there may be more chronic ocular conditions they are treated for but it will not create a very significant increase in the number of active patients seen in the average practice. A modest increase in the number of patients seen per hour per O.D. would increase the available examination visit slots per doctor per week to a level which would easily compensate for any increase in visits per year per patient due to chronic age related ocular conditions with extra exam slots left over which could accommodate any significant increase in patient numbers projected by the effects of the Affordable Care Act (Obamacare).

3) Should there be concern due to the fact that there are approximately 1.45 unique applicants per student slot in the current optometry schools? Currently, according to ASCO figures for the 2012 enrollment year, it appears that most of the schools are maintaining a reasonable level of academic standards for those students admitted. However, as more "for profit" based optometry schools are opened, there could theoretically be a significant lowering of academic admission standards in order to fill available class slots. If that happens, the concern then becomes whether the schools reduce the rigors of their programs in order to keep those students enrolled through graduation and if those students are then able to pass the NBEO exams to obtain a license to practice. This potential problem can only be resolved if the schools are able to significantly increase the total applicant pool for admissions. Considering the significant debt these students will incur and the apparent erosion of optometric income due to increased practice expenses and reduced income per patient because of the prevalence of vision care plans and now on line opticals, it may become more difficult to convince someone to apply to optometry school. It appears that some schools which were traditionally dedicated to optometry programs only may be protecting themselves financially by starting additional programs for ancillary health professions such as Salus University's audiology and physician assistant programs.

Now for the main question: Are there too many schools graduating too many optometrists which will cause harm to the profession?

The answer to that seems to be yes for several reasons.

1) Many new graduates in several areas of the country are unable to find full time work in one office and must work in 2 or 3 different offices to make a reasonable income to meet their cost of living and student debt obligations. One O.D. in the southern California area related that he could post an ad for an optometric position and have 50 applicants within two days at a per diem wage which falls significantly below the average optometric annual income reported by Review of Optometry.

2) As O.D.s are forced to increase the efficiency of their practices by seeing more patients per hour in order to maintain their income, in the face of increasing practice expenses and continued erosion of net income per patient due to various outside forces, that will further increase the over supply of O.D.s. The adage, "Work harder to make less," will definitely come into play to a greater extent than it applies even today to the average optometric practice.

3) As the over supply problem multiplies, more O.D.s will be forced to work in some sort of commercial affiliated position which could eventually lead to the profession becoming more like pharmacy where the extreme minority of pharmacists are in private pharmacies and the majority are hourly employees of chains. Unfortunately, in many of these commercial affiliated practices, the O.D. is discouraged from practicing full scope care and the production of eyeglass and contact lens prescription takes precedence.

Is there a solution to the problem of too many schools producing too many optometrists? Apparently, at this time there is not.

The American Optometric Association has not taken an official position on this issue and, apparently, neither has the Accreditation Council on Optometric Education (ACOE) which is responsible for the accrediting of the schools. Some educators have expressed the opinion that perhaps the ACOE should enhance its accreditation standards, especially in light of the increasing scope of optometric practice and the enhanced didactic and clinical training necessary to educate new practitioners to those levels, which would result in fewer optometry schools being able to meet the accreditation standards. That discussion is beyond the scope of this article.

At this time it seems that the only resolution to the problem may come about if some of the schools are not able to find qualified applicants who can finish the optometric curriculum and also pass the NBEO exams to become licensed. If the cost of education becomes too prohibitive without the ability to fairly easily earn an income commensurate with the time and money invested after graduation, that may severely limit the applicant pool more than it is currently. How long will it be before we see optometry schools sued by their graduates for misleading them about their job prospects after graduation, as we've seen happen with several law schools?

Only time will tell how this over supply of schools and optometrists will adversely affect the profession. Hopefully, some entity with the ability to effectively deal with the problem, presumably the AOA which has a great deal of input to both the ACOE and ASCO, will step in to do something before its too late. At this time, it seems that it is either unwilling or unable to step up to say and do something.

Best Regards,


American Optometric Society
801 Volvo Parkway, Suite 133
Chesapeake, VA 23320
phone (805) 768-4AOS (4267)
fax (805) 456-3005

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Any chance the AOA and ACOE are actually going to clamp down and start limiting the supply of ODs before eye doc oversupply goes to hell in a handbasket? If Optometrists got together and pushed for this as much they push for expanding surgical scope you guys would be in a lot better shape and we would too. If instead Optometrists stay the course then pretty soon there are going to thousands of us all legally trying to do cataract surgery and there won't be enough cases for almost anyone to really be proficient. It seems like that is actually what most of you politically active ODs are pushing to happen.

It would also help if you guys decided to stop lying to these prospective students about their career opportunities in the future. This happymango kid is a pre-optometry student and seemingly had no clue about this issue. In contrast I didn't meet a single other medical student on the Ophthalmology interview trail who didn't realize that eye care oversupply was a real issue. We all talked about it in hushed corners with the attendings just like you suspected.
 
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Geez!

1.5 patients an hour?!? If that is what a practicing OD is getting I'd hate to see how few students on rotations actually see.

I heard optometry was a little down from my good buddy, but this is so bleak it's stressing me out.

As troll as this sounds why on earth are there still pre optometry students?
 
It would also help if you guys decided to stop lying to these prospective students about their career opportunities in the future. This happymango kid is a pre-optometry student and seemingly had no clue about this issue. In contrast I didn't meet a single other medical student on the Ophthalmology interview trail who didn't realize that eye care oversupply was a real issue. We all talked about it in hushed corners with the attendings just like you suspected.

Who r "you guys"? I always talk about oversupply. I am also a member of the AOS who produces that newsletter. On this forum we talk about oversupply every day. Let me ask u this. If the AMA was doing something you totally disagreed with, how much control would u have to make substantive change. None basically is the answer. It is near impossible to change the course of this train wreck.
 
Well, ODs are dropping out of the AOA in record numbers due to their lack of gonads even addressing the issue. The American Optometric Association, will not even put forth a general statement to the fact that they believe there are too many optometry schools and too many graduates and that no additional schools are needed. This, despite their OWN studies that prove this. They just brushed their own study aside and went about business as usual. So the only "voice" we have to oppose these new schools is to take our ball and go home.

Legally, there is no way to stop a new school from opening. It's still a relatively free economy (at least for the time being). So if some num-nut wants to open a for-profit OD school or any other school, they are free to do it. The gov't will continue to give out money to fund these schools (by giving students money).

But most of us 'in-the-trenches' ODs, have absolutely no control of what the profession does. All we can do it whine and complain and vote by withholding our dues money.

It will not stop until loads of new ODs begin to default on their loans.......which WILL happen. It's not 'if' but 'when'.
 
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Well, ODs are dropping out of the AOA in record numbers due to their lack of gonads even addressing the issue. The American Optometric Association, will not even put forth a general statement to the fact that they believe there are too many optometry schools and too many graduates and that no additional schools are needed. This, despite their OWN studies that prove this. They just brushed their own study aside and went about business as usual. So the only "voice" we have to oppose these new schools is to take our ball and go home.

Legally, there is no way to stop a new school from opening. It's still a relatively free economy (at least for the time being). So if some num-nut wants to open a for-profit OD school or any other school, they are free to do it. The gov't will continue to give out money to fund these schools (by giving students money).

But most of us 'in-the-trenches' ODs, have absolutely no control of what the profession does. All we can do it whine and complain and vote by withholding our dues money.

It will not stop until loads of new ODs begin to default on their loans.......which WILL happen. It's not 'if' but 'when'.

Exactly! I would venture to say that the majority of ODs feel exactly this same way.
 
That's not troll at all...its a great question!

Good, cause now I can expand. If you're investing this much money in your education you better be sure as hell it's going to be worth it. Especially when there are so many other routes, why?!

Me, I went to medical school because I have a god complex and want to be the one in charge in the room when the poo is hitting the fan :laugh:

You either have to be oblivious or obscenely naive to hop onto that train, at least do some due diligence kiddos!

I do hope things work out because this is just a crappy situation all around
 
Any chance the AOA and ACOE are actually going to clamp down and start limiting the supply of ODs before eye doc oversupply goes to hell in a handbasket?

No, pretty much zero chance that this will ever happen, and there are too many reasons for me to list.

If Optometrists got together and pushed for this as much they push for expanding surgical scope you guys would be in a lot better shape and we would too. If instead Optometrists stay the course then pretty soon there are going to thousands of us all legally trying to do cataract surgery and there won't be enough cases for almost anyone to really be proficient. It seems like that is actually what most of you politically active ODs are pushing to happen.

Believe it or not, the vast majority of ODs have ZERO interest in surgery. Unfortunately, the delusional "leaders" in the profession have a fixation on becoming Jr ophthalmologists, able to refractive surgery, orbital injections, ALT/SLT, etc. Guys like David Cockrell are driving the push for surgery, while the rest of the profession stands by and says, "Really, this is what we're fighting for right now, the right to do yag on 100 year old "Rose" after the PCO kicks in?" Or better yet, the "Board Certification" nonsense.

Believe me, the problem with optometry is that the profession is being "driven" by about a dozen people, and watching this unfold is like being a passenger on board the bus in "Speed." So, in summary, most ODs are not pushing for surgery. It's a small minority of "elites" who have their heads so far up in the clouds, they can't see their own feet.
 
Good, cause now I can expand. If you're investing this much money in your education you better be sure as hell it's going to be worth it. Especially when there are so many other routes, why?!


I do hope things work out because this is just a crappy situation all around


Couldn't have said it better. These kiddos are not doing their due diligence AT ALL!, and organized optometry, and these new crap schools are loving it all the way to the bank! The house of cards will fall pretty soon though.
 
No, pretty much zero chance that this will ever happen, and there are too many reasons for me to list.

Believe it or not, the vast majority of ODs have ZERO interest in surgery. Unfortunately, the delusional "leaders" in the profession have a fixation on becoming Jr ophthalmologists, able to refractive surgery, orbital injections, ALT/SLT, etc. Guys like David Cockrell are driving the push for surgery, while the rest of the profession stands by and says, "Really, this is what we're fighting for right now, the right to do yag on 100 year old "Rose" after the PCO kicks in?" Or better yet, the "Board Certification" nonsense.

Believe me, the problem with optometry is that the profession is being "driven" by about a dozen people, and watching this unfold is like being a passenger on board the bus in "Speed." So, in summary, most ODs are not pushing for surgery. It's a small minority of "elites" who have their heads so far up in the clouds, they can't see their own feet.

I've never met an OD who had any interest in surgery either - they are integral parts of eye care practices and I'm not saying they're incompetent, they're great eye docs, but they just aren't surgeons and don't feel that it is even their role. The internet buzz just taints my perceptions on scope expansion, I know. Sorry if I was a bit too generally accusative - I should have directed my complaints specifically at ODs who seem to be so encouraging about prospects to OD applicants. Met one in lenscrafters doing this to an OD-student-hopeful the other day.

I also know the feeling of an organization being driven by a few minority - it seems the AMA is this way on a few issues as well. I do hope ODs end up with more of a voice in the oversupply issue before OD school becomes like law school. For all of our sakes, especially the kids who will graduate $120,000 in debt unable to find a part time job refracting in a walmart. I hope you guys can put pressure on these organizations.
 
Met one in lenscrafters doing this to an OD-student-hopeful the other day.

Hilarious. A LensCrafters OD encouraging a doe eyed pre optom. I totally believe u. But what a joke in my opinion. It's like, " hey young undergrad...someday u too can be a corporate b$tch, accept crap insurance, severely under-utilize your training, and further destroy our profession. These ODs can't even admit to themselves that their situation sucks. The denial is so strong they have to perpetuate it on to unassuming undergrads. Sad.

They should cut off all federal subsidization of student loans for optometry. Better yet cut off all federal student loans for optometry if that was possible (which I doubt) it would fix a lot of this oversupply overnight. If you are going to dive into this overloaded ship, go find private loans to fund your tier 3 for profit school!
 
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Well, ODs are dropping out of the AOA in record numbers due to their lack of gonads even addressing the issue.


The afortementioned is 100% accurate. Record number ODs across the country have dropped out of AOA and their state organizations. When the AOA supports the ABO and its bogus process, then you know it's time to get out. Where's the AOA monthly journal? What profession in healthcare do you know that has no journal published because supposeably of some alibi? None I can think of. The AOA did great things. DID. Unitl they ran it to the ground like a failed business.

When I entered Optometry school in the late 80's, competition was fierce, thousands of applicants applied for limited seats with 16 US Schools. It was a wonderful time to enter and become an optometrist. BTW, I was admitted on first attempt, from undergrad. Nowadays, our profession has become a disgrace. It's still a wonderful profession to practice but the opportunities are NO longer there. I wouldn't wish my enemy (not that I have any enemies) to become an optometrist nowadays. We are not marketable anymore.
 
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Telling preoptometry kids to forget about optometey because of a sinking ship histeria is like saying forget about going to a four year college because the job market and economy sucks. Getting a bachelor's isn't what it used to be, but it still opens up quite a few doors for us. It's bad all around everywhere and I'm not saying every student genuinely cares for optometey, yes some are in it for the money, but others genuinely give a **** about eyes and people's wellbeing and discouraging that so strongly is not going to solve any problems. I think optometrists are in a better position to make a change than students are, why not stop whining and actually do something about it instead of hoping for "all these students who took er jobs!!!!" to go away. Get a group together, distance is no longer an issue with electronic communication these days and start dealing with the issue like professionals.


PS, no offense or disrespect to anybody. I value JasonK's opinion a lot and have read a lot of his posts on here, he's very insightful and definitely helpful in any possible solutions
 
"some are in it for the money." You have to be kidding me? Perhaps you are not informed about optometric salaries, I can name you at least 15 other professions that pay better than Optometry. Perhaps, medicine -those or some might be in it for the money but not optometry. You live or lived comftably with optometry pay but you're not going to become wealthy doing this. Even if you own your business, private times are difficult today than 15 -20 years ago.

IMO, anyone going into Optometry 2013 for the money better get a psych evaluation before applying or entering OD school. Salaries have been stagnant for many years and not up to par to inflation. Never mind what the AOA tells you.........................Do some research my friend.
 
Telling preoptometry kids to forget about optometey because of a sinking ship histeria is like saying forget about going to a four year college because the job market and economy sucks.

No, it isn't, because there is a lot of variety in what one can do with a bachelor's degree, depending on what you choose to study. You can get a degree in art history, and starve, or you can get a degree in something like petroleum engineering, and make a 6 figure salary, right out of college. Some people want to study art, and for them it might be worth it to struggle to pay the bills. Others might like the idea of making 6 figures out of college, but hate the idea of working as petroleum engineer. For them, they need to find something else.

I don't really care if you "love eyeballs" and choose to get a $200,000 OD, depsite knowing that it's a floundering profession in which you'll probably have a difficult time justifying the cost. If you make that decision based on a solid understanding of what the profession is like, then fine, this is America - you can do what you want.

My reason for being on this board is that students DON"T HAVE A CLUE what they're actually getting into. Those of you who have been reading my posts and developing migraines because of them, I'm sorry, but I'm not here for you. I'm here for the students who continually come on here to evaluate optometry. They're bombarded with propaganda from the schools, the AOA, and from doctors who can't admit to students, what they know to be true, that optometry is in big trouble, and it's not likely to recover any time soon.


....but others genuinely give a **** about eyes and people's wellbeing and discouraging that so strongly is not going to solve any problems.

You're viewing this from the wrong perspective. I'm not here to "solve a problem" for optometry. That problem is unsolvable. The ship is going down, and nothing we do, as practicing ODs, will change that. It's nice to theorize and say that "Well, what if all ODs just banded together, then we could fix it." That's like saying "What if everyone in Congress just decided to work together...." It'll never happen. Optometry is divided in too many ways to get itself out of the mess it's in. The "leadership" in this profession has been corrupted by greed and power, and they continue to drive the profession in a direction that is not beneficial to anyone but themselves. That's not going to change, no matter how much we'd like it to.

So, I'm not here to "fix" anything. I practically have no skin in the game anymore since I'm basically out of optometry practice. I'm here to prevent people from making the worst financial mistake of their lives. If you want to burn through $200K (actually more like $350K or more, once interest is accounted for), it's your right, but don't say someone didn't warn you.

You guys forget that all of the "pie in the sky" stuff that you're feeling right now, was once floating around in my brain, in Tippytoe's brain, in Hello7's brain, etc. We were all pre-opts at one point, and saw optometry much differently than we do now. You'll be there yourselves much sooner than you think. I don't want to speak for others, but I'd guess that the other "naysayers" on here are not trying to "fix" anything either. I'm guessing that, like me, they're just trying to prevent people from getting swindled out of their money by those who stand to profit immensely from their lack of knowledge.
 
you guys forget that all of the "pie in the sky" stuff that you're feeling right now, was once floating around in my brain, in tippytoe's brain, in hello7's brain, etc. We were all pre-opts at one point, and saw optometry much differently than we do now. You'll be there yourselves much sooner than you think. I don't want to speak for others, but i'd guess that the other "naysayers" on here are not trying to "fix" anything either. I'm guessing that, like me, they're just trying to prevent people from getting swindled out of their money by those who stand to profit immensely from their lack of knowledge.

+ 1
 
I think its great for pre-opts to know every aspect of optometry, The Student Doctor Network - Optometry provides a very bleak outlook for optometry by the practicing optometrists that post on here. However there should be a disclaimer that says that the ODs who are posting on here, are the most negative of the entire OD community. They are the ones who are actively complaining and not grudgingly keeping quiet. Take everything you here with a grain of salt. As Jason K said multiple times, Hes not making our decision and its what we do that ultimately decides our future. If you happen to stumble onto SDN forums for optometry and have decided to look else where due to the job aspect, then of course optometry is not for you. If you however still want to become an Optometrist then you fall into two categories:

1) Passionate
2) Ignorant

Thankfully for you, There is no way to distinguish between the two... atleast not on an internet forum. What I can do say is if you still like optometry, and you have been looking at the posts created by these ODs, try and see it as a warning and prepare for your career financially, it will only benefit you later on. No one wants to be the troll on the forum but theres some truth behind the bitterness that they speak.
 
I just interviewed at NECO and they estimate that total cost of attendance is around $58k for the upcoming year. You do that for 4 years, you're looking at ~$240k without factoring in tuition increases each year. Also, graduate loans are no longer subsidized so they will begin accruing interest the day they are dispersed. Therefore, the $58k from year 1 will be more like $70k upon graduation. All told, including undergraduate debt, I'd be looking at $300k in debt. The monthly payments on that amount in a 10 year repayment plan are in the neighborhood of $3600. That's about $41,000/yr for 10 years. Do the math. This is financial suicide.

I'm not sure I could accept admission if its even offered to me.
 
I just interviewed at NECO and they estimate that total cost of attendance is around $58k for the upcoming year. You do that for 4 years, you're looking at ~$240k without factoring in tuition increases each year. Also, graduate loans are no longer subsidized so they will begin accruing interest the day they are dispersed. Therefore, the $58k from year 1 will be more like $70k upon graduation. All told, including undergraduate debt, I'd be looking at $300k in debt. The monthly payments on that amount in a 10 year repayment plan are in the neighborhood of $3600. That's about $41,000/yr for 10 years. Do the math. This is financial suicide.

I'm not sure I could accept admission if its even offered to me.


very astute,

and the only thing that could get out of this debt obligation is death! this is exactly what many, if not most pre-optoms are looking at. making about 35K after taxes and student loan payments. believe it!! we're not on here warning you for giggles.
 
I just interviewed at NECO and they estimate that total cost of attendance is around $58k for the upcoming year. You do that for 4 years, you're looking at ~$240k without factoring in tuition increases each year. Also, graduate loans are no longer subsidized so they will begin accruing interest the day they are dispersed. Therefore, the $58k from year 1 will be more like $70k upon graduation. All told, including undergraduate debt, I'd be looking at $300k in debt. The monthly payments on that amount in a 10 year repayment plan are in the neighborhood of $3600. That's about $41,000/yr for 10 years. Do the math. This is financial suicide.

I'm not sure I could accept admission if its even offered to me.

I don't know what your stats are and if you are coming straight from undergrad. The only opinion I can offer you is go to medicine because you will be more marketable than any OD ever. 240K in tuition after graduation will be difficult for you to pay back that amount per month 3600. Not impossible certainly do able as long as you don't have many other expenses to go along with it: mortgage, car pymts, raising a family, vacations, etc.....

Becoming a physician and landing a dermatology, radiology or orthopedic residency to make the big bucks once you are out is no easy task and no guarantee either you will be accepted into these very difficult residency spots.

I've said it before and I will go to my grave with this statement: Optometry's heydays at least from my part of town are OVER. The salary has plateau and actually gone down if you ask many ODs.

Think carefully before you commit because you are the one that will have to live with this decision. The Optometry schools are out for a profit. They operate for business. The AOA has abandon us, all 36000 ODs. They no longer care for our profession and can assure certaily do not care for you either. Power and greed got the best of them and now adhere to their own agenda. Small mob organization. Anyway, I can assure you there are thousands of us who regret it. Doesn't mean we are not good or competent. Contrary, many of us are top notch the way we practice but ............. If you don't have any loans, Optometry might be well suited for you. With 250K coming out in loans -CHOOSE CAREFULLY beacause it will be stressful circumstances.

I wish you blessings on your life journey :)
 
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I just interviewed at NECO and they estimate that total cost of attendance is around $58k for the upcoming year. You do that for 4 years, you're looking at ~$240k without factoring in tuition increases each year. Also, graduate loans are no longer subsidized so they will begin accruing interest the day they are dispersed. Therefore, the $58k from year 1 will be more like $70k upon graduation. All told, including undergraduate debt, I'd be looking at $300k in debt. The monthly payments on that amount in a 10 year repayment plan are in the neighborhood of $3600. That's about $41,000/yr for 10 years. Do the math. This is financial suicide.

I'm not sure I could accept admission if its even offered to me.

If you're going to take on that much debt, i certainly wouldn't do it over a 10 year period. That's a mortgage on a decent sized house. No one pays that off in 10 years.

But even if you spread it over 30 years, that amount of debt load for an optometic education is grossly irresponsible.
 
Becoming a physician and landing a dermatology, radiology or orthopedic residency to make the big bucks once you are out is no easy task and no guarantee either you will be accepted into these very difficult residency spots.

Becoming an MD with no guarantee of getting into a competitive residency is not a risk I am willing to take, I don't think.

If you're going to take on that much debt, i certainly wouldn't do it over a 10 year period. That's a mortgage on a decent sized house. No one pays that off in 10 years.

But even if you spread it over 30 years, that amount of debt load for an optometic education is grossly irresponsible.

Stafford Loans for Grad students are now fixed at 7.9% and are unsubsidized. The $58k/yr I mentioned is directly off the financial aid presentation given at NECO last week. I agree that paying it off in 10 years is ridiculous and not plausible. Letting it drag on at 7.9% is just as insane though. Who wants to be making those kinds of payments well into their 40s or 50s?

Even people who don't go into debt because their parents have money or whatever... that money seems better spent elsewhere (like.. buy a house instead?).
 
I can almost guarantee you that an average MD (any specialty really) will have a higher income than most optometrist. Of course, there are those optometrists who are statistical outliers and bring in lots of money every year.

Regarding $58K/year, that number is grossly inflated. The tuition for out of state is $38K a year. If you keep track of your spendings, you will not spend $20K a year on extra expenses (housing, food, etc.)

Also, NECO is one of the most expensive school around.
 
Maybe I'll just do a Chem Ph.D. At least they pay you for that.
 
I don't know what your stats are and if you are coming straight from undergrad. The only opinion I can offer you is go to medicine because you will be more marketable than any OD ever. 240K in tuition after graduation will be difficult for you to pay back that amount per month 3600. Not impossible certainly do able as long as you don't have many other expenses to go along with it: mortgage, car pymts, raising a family, vacations, etc.....

Becoming a physician and landing a dermatology, radiology or orthopedic residency to make the big bucks once you are out is no easy task and no guarantee either you will be accepted into these very difficult residency spots.
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the biggest misconception I see in this forum is this perception that there is a very small number of 'winners' in the match and then 80% of people after med school/residency end up being overworked primary care physicians making 135k a year.

This is nonsense.

First off, while the numbers of people matching into any 1 very competitive field may only total 1-3% or whatever, if you add them all up(ortho, ent, uro, neurosurg, derm, optho, radonc, radiology, plastics) you're probably already at 25% or so. Then throw in all the well paying but only moderately competitive fields like anesthesiology...thats another 1200 or so slots. Then all the people who do internal medicine and go on to do cardiology, gi, etc fellowships....massive numbers there of course.

Adding up all those 'procedure' based(ie well paid) fields, that probably accounts for 40%+ of all med school graduates. And hell I havent even thrown general surgery or EM into the mix...thats another 2000+ slots or so.

The number of american medical graduates who end up being overworked general IM, family medicine, peds, psych practitioners is very low. Probably not even 15%. And many of the ones who end up doing this picked it and could have easily done other things.

And also, even if one is 'unlucky' enough to have to be a general hospitalist or psychiatrist or whatever, the pay is still pretty good. Hospitalists work 7 on/7 off(12 hr shifts) and make about 230-250k/year. As a psychiatrist next year I'll make in that range as well fairly easily(without working 70 hrs/week)......

Im not saying all you guys should go to medical school. That's another question and involves a lot more than salary, options, etc. But this idea that only a few lucky people match into competitive specialities and that they are the only ones who make >200k is just lunacy and not an accurate picture of medicine at all.
 
Vistaril, i didn't express myself clearly. Came out wrong. What I meant to say was if you are going to have 240K in student loans, might as well go into medicine because you will be more marketable than any OD ever. I mentioned derm, red and ortho as being high pay specialties where 240K can be paid back alot faster than working as an optometirst. Common sense. My apologies. In no way, did I want to come across by saying anything other than difficult residencies to get into are not worth it or lower paying. All I wanted to simply point out is if you're going to have 1/4 of a mill in loans become a physician because you'll be able to pay that back faster. And if you match into rad, you'll be loan free much much faster. My bad. Came out the wrong way.
 
What about students who aren't competitive for medicine? What advice is this thread giving them?
 
What about students who aren't competitive for medicine? What advice is this thread giving them?

if you're going into optometry because you're not competitive for medicine, then you're going in for the wrong reasons, and you are going to be sorely disappointed. that's the advice. another take home message from this thread is that you will very likely struggle financially in optometry going forward. this is indisputable.
 
speaking to those not in optometry school yet,

we're not career guidance counselors here, we are optometrists (some of us actually not bitter and also very successful) who see reality, and just want those considering optometry to have a realistic perspective. not the AOA or optom school BS they continue to spew out regarding the viability of the profession going forward.

do your due diligence, or suffer the consequences. if you have a real plan, other than passion and love for eyes, then go for it. make it happen captain, if not then you all deserve to investigate alternative careers.
 
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What about students who aren't competitive for medicine? What advice is this thread giving them?

I would consider going to PA school. Just like in every field there are good ones and less well known ones, but the job market for PAs is pretty good and it's only 2-3 years of training. My close friend got a starting job offer of $100,000 and just got offered $150,000 at a different location in the Midwest with 2 years of experience.
 
Just a question out there for the gloom/doomsayers. This is not meant to troll, but to ask for your opinions on an issue which is not as commonly addressed.

Everyone here who says optometry isn't worth it cite the 200K in loans a student will acquire if they borrow for their education and attend a private or OUS school. What is your advice for students who have the option of attending in-state school and thus amass a much smaller total student loan (what's the amount, 60K??). Would you declare optometry to be a viable option in that case?
 
Excellent question you ask. I'm sensing you might be an educator/faculty or administrator of Optometry school? Anyhow, if a student graduates with no loans/ debt free or minimal loans as you state 60K, I believe it's up to the individual to make that decision. Is it worth it? Only they can answer that question. As a practicing optometrist for two decades, I've seen this wonderful profession go through significant strides. Alot of good. But recently, its gone downward because we are divided more than ever before as a profession. This is not good for anyone. Why and how? is another story. However, my salary from 20 years ago has not substantially increased according to inflation and buying power. In my case, it has decreased. For example, 250 -300 dollars, 20 years ago with 400-450 bucks today is not good. Optometric salaries in my opinion have not kept up with inflation (what has?) and buying power. Again, IMO. If you are loan free, sure 90-130,000 yr salary is great. You are KING! However, 200K in debt with todays OD salary and limited work compared to alot more opportunities that existed back then is not good. Alot of ODs do not have FT positions unless you are VA -Academic employed. Even corporate offices-retail isn't what it use to be offering you FT.
Would I do Optometry over knowing what I know now compared to when I got out? HELL NO!
Sorry for carrying on...........................It's not worth it to me NOW.
 
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Excellent question you ask. I'm sensing you might be an educator/faculty or administrator of Optometry school? Anyhow, if a student graduates with no loans/ debt free or minimal loans as you state 60K, I believe it's up to the individual to make that decision. Is it worth it? Only they can answer that question. As a practicing optometrist for two decades, I've seen this wonderful profession go through significant strides. Alot of good. But recently, its gone downward because we are divided more than ever before as a profession. This is not good for anyone. Why and how? is another story. However, my salary from 20 years ago has not substantially increased according to inflation and buying power. In my case, it has decreased. For example, 250 -300 dollars, 20 years ago with 400-450 bucks today is not good. Optometric salaries in my opinion have not kept up with inflation (what has?) and buying power. Again, IMO. If you are loan free, sure 90-130,000 yr salary is great. You are KING! However, 200K in debt with todays OD salary and limited work compared to alot more opportunities that existed back then is not good. Alot of ODs do not have FT positions unless you are VA -Academic employed. Even corporate offices-retail isn't what it use to be offering you FT.
Would I do Optometry over knowing what I know now compared to when I got out? HELL NO!
Sorry for carrying on...........................It's not worth it to me NOW.

I think its a good question and she is not necessarily an admissions director. I say this because I asked the exact same question to two OD's on this forum, both of whom said I would be much better off with 60k in debt than 250k.

Here is a question for you. Lets say tomorrow you were granted all the power to change the field of optometry (im assuming you would change it since it is spiraling downward). What would you do? Is there a way to see good changes again? or do you feel that all hope is lost and the damage is irreversible.
 
I think its a good question and she is not necessarily an admissions director. I say this because I asked the exact same question to two OD's on this forum, both of whom said I would be much better off with 60k in debt than 250k.

Here is a question for you. Lets say tomorrow you were granted all the power to change the field of optometry (im assuming you would change it since it is spiraling downward). What would you do? Is there a way to see good changes again? or do you feel that all hope is lost and the damage is irreversible.

While optometry has lots of problems, those problems are amplified by orders of magnitude due to the debt loads students are graduating with.

I would strongly discourage anyone from pursuing optometry if they think they will have more than 180,000 in combined student loan debt.
 
16 US Optometry Schools. There was no need to open up four more and a potential fifth. Less competiton, less ODs, higher salaries. Market forces. Economics.
Tuition is insanely expensive. What kind of return on their investment will these kids see nowadays to spend 150-200K plus for an OD degree with massive debt?
With all respect to Dr. Paul Ajamian and et al, I do not know their ideology for board certification which was supported by the committee of the AOA. I have read the for and against arguments for board certification and for the life of me it makes absolutely no sense.

Optometry laws vary from state to state and 2 states as of yet do not have oral therapeutics. How can you be board certified equally across the country?

Our leaders ought to be screened and more carefully selected than a "boys club." They should work for everyone -all of us with their best intentions for our profession as a whole and not for their "illusions of grand deur."
 
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