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always think it's funny when someone thinks it's bold or edgy to say 'but diversity of ideas matter too!'

well of course! literally no one is arguing that point. in fact that IS kind of the point.

having diverse ideas matters as does having having someone that understands a patient's perspective who may be from a different background than them. Also matters for a patient to have someone in their medical team that they can innately identify with. none of these are the only thing, but none of them are bad things either.

what IS a bad thing IMO and quite funny is when people like KHE feel like they are being personally attacked for something like diversity even being talked about.
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radoncgrad2019 said:
Anyone who pulls the ‘if color of skin matters why aren’t we talking about height and weight etc for diversity’ is a complete joke
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Yep, no logical retort. Just "if you don't agree then you're a joke."
My point, which is that we shouldn't factor things like race and sex, and try to artifically manipulate populations to create a superficial appearance of "diversity" is valid, and it's why people are only left with drive-by comebacks like "you're a joke/racist/sexist/Trumptard/whatever"

Also, as its been pointed out numerous times, women and ethnic minorities factually are more likely to practice radiation oncology in large, over-saturated metros. Am I saying that we should preferentially try to get more rural white men in the field because they will be more likely to go to the communities in need? No, I am not. Because artifically manipulating the workforce based on skin color and sex is ethically wrong.
 
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radoncgrad2019 said:
always think it's funny when someone thinks it's bold or edgy to say 'but diversity of ideas matter too!'

well of course! literally no one is arguing that point. in fact that IS kind of the point.

having diverse ideas matters as does having having someone that understands a patient's perspective who may be from a different background than them. Also matters for a patient to have someone in their medical team that they can innately identify with. none of these are the only thing, but none of them are bad things either.

what IS a bad thing IMO and quite funny is when people like KHE feel like they are being personally attacked for something like diversity even being talked about.
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It's quite perverse that the response from multiple posters to my opinion has been to go after my character by saying I'm the one with the problem because I shouldn't feel attacked for having ideas that some people will attack me over. And to belittle the validity of my criticism by saying things like I am just intentionally trying to be edgy... as if I'm not really saying anything of substance and just trying to stir the pot and get a reaction.
 
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KHE: Am I saying that we should preferentially try to get more rural white men in the field because they will be more likely to go to the communities in need?

you may not be saying that but actually I see no problem with that general concept. Yes we need more people (whoever they are) who want to go to rural Arkansas and WV and work. The ideas of opening programs there was a decent one in terms of getting trained rad oncs who will work there, but it creates other problems as we all know about - increased work-force that is unnecessary.

that is one good thing about increased FMGs tbh - FMGs historically in all fields have been willing to move anywhere to make MONEY.
 
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Neuronix said:
To go against the narrative of minorities means diversity is a microaggression that reflects bad on whoever speaks about it. So I don't usually say anything. I feel totally unable to discuss this with anyone in real life, despite being in an interracial marriage with mixed race children.

You could say that it's privilege that I blend in with the majority in medicine. But is it really? Nobody gave me extra money for education, and nobody has ever given me extra consideration for admission, promotion, grants, etc for my skin color. I've always just stepped up and brought the stats to compete on merit. Even when that meant working full-time in college, living in a $200 studio shoebox through college, and competing as a top pre-med with absolutely no pre-med prep whatsoever.

When I interview people now, I want to know--what are your ideas? What have you overcome? If you're a minority from a middle class or better background with the same message as everyone else, why should there be extra consideration? But this is too complicated. Tick a box, person is a minority, shows diversity. Improves stats. That's how the USA works nowadays in academics, and I don't want to be labelled as anti-diversity, so I will go back to my anonymous corner.
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This x1000. Everyone has their heads stuck in the sand on this issue and are too afraid to question anything, no matter how logically valid, as going against the narrative can negatively impact your career and livelihood. That's a problem. You're simply just not allowed to say diversity goes beyond the things you can see like skin color and sex. As we've seen, you'll just get called a "joke." But why is my reasoning a "joke"? Well because it's obviously a joke. It's like a law of nature. The great recursive defense mechanism of identity politics. You've explained this better than I did. Great post.
 
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radoncgrad2019 said:
KHE: Am I saying that we should preferentially try to get more rural white men in the field because they will be more likely to go to the communities in need?

you may not be saying that but actually I see no problem with that general concept. Yes we need more people (whoever they are) who want to go to rural Arkansas and WV and work. The ideas of opening programs there was a decent one in terms of getting trained rad oncs who will work there, but it creates other problems as we all know about - increased work-force that is unnecessary.

that is one good thing about increased FMGs tbh - FMGs historically in all fields have been willing to move anywhere to make MONEY.
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There are so many things wrong with this, I don't even know where to begin.

At least you are ideologically consistent in that you see no problem with factoring in sex and color in hiring, whether women, men, white, or brown.

As a rural doc, I'm sick of this hate a few posters keep dumping on Arkansas and WVU, saying they won't hire their grads etc. They are NOT the problem. The problem is the massive academic centers on the coasts expanding their residencies. The handful of spots that Arkansas and WVU occupy, which are intended to help serve these communities that the coastal grads turn their noses up at, are basically inconsequential compared to the dozens of extra grads flooding the urban metros because of big academic program expansion.

Regarding your comment about FMGs... really? You're going to paint all the foreign docs with a broad brush and say they're all just in it for the money and will do anything for the money because that's all FMGs care about? Hope you didn't mean that, but that's not a good look. Historically, FMGs occupy rural areas because they often have substandard medical training and are less competitive for competitive positions, so they have to go where they can get jobs, not because they are just trying to make the most money possible. So you're totally cool with the field SOAPing more FMGs because they're all going to go rural and solve the rural problem? Why do the patients on the coast deserve the best docs from the best schools while the farmers in the interior get the guys who went to the caribbean and failed their boards multiple times?
 
‘interior get the guys who went to the caribbean and failed their boards multiple times?’

Lol because these are the FMGs who are entering our field

Man you have got a lot to learn!
 
radoncgrad2019 said:
‘interior get the guys who went to the caribbean and failed their boards multiple times?’

Lol because these are the FMGs who are entering our field

Man you have got a lot to learn!
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Those were one of the kind of "FMGs" that matched in the 90s. Look at academic profiles and tell me how many sgu, ross etc grads you see
 
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medgator said:
Those were one of the kind of "FMGs" that matched in the 90s. Look at academic profiles and tell me how many sgu, ross etc grads you see
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Rad onc wasn't a competitive field when we were drawing on film with markers. Lots of academic leaders with foreign schooling who took whatever residency they could get. Ironic how they turned the tables during rad onc's heyday 2005-2015.
 
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radoncgrad2019 said:
‘interior get the guys who went to the caribbean and failed their boards multiple times?’

Lol because these are the FMGs who are entering our field

Man you have got a lot to learn!
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I have personally witnessed a 60+ year old foreign trained rad onc still in practice in the midwest who does not know how to contour on a PC. Basically does not know how to use a computer. This is not as uncommon as you think.

Rad onc has been spoiled in that the ENTIRE field of residents was basically made up of the best US grads, so we haven't had this problem recently. Now this is changing. Not only will we not have the best US grads, we won't have US grads at all. Sure, there are plenty of excellent FMGs. But the quality control is lacking. There are plenty that would have never made it past first year in a US med school.
 
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KHE88 said:
There are so many things wrong with this, I don't even know where to begin.

At least you are ideologically consistent in that you see no problem with factoring in sex and color in hiring, whether women, men, white, or brown.

As a rural doc, I'm sick of this hate a few posters keep dumping on Arkansas and WVU, saying they won't hire their grads etc. They are NOT the problem. The problem is the massive academic centers on the coasts expanding their residencies. The handful of spots that Arkansas and WVU occupy, which are intended to help serve these communities that the coastal grads turn their noses up at, are basically inconsequential compared to the dozens of extra grads flooding the urban metros because of big academic program expansion.
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Pretty sure mdacc and mgh were here before wvu, tenn and Arkansas, all of which have been directly responsibile for the most recent positions (positions 130-195) in this specialty. Fairly certain if we did an avengers endgame style fingersnap to every program created post 2010, we'd be in a much better position today.

No guarantee their residents will stay there to practice. None. Zero. I say this as someone who trained in a mid tier flyover program who came running back to the Sunbelt where I had connections

Great way to screw the specialty collectively though... Guess they didn't want to pay market rate to actually gets doctors to come out there and practice. But as hallahan said at Wash U, salaries are too damn high!
 
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I think that the more recent statements - I don’t know how anyone can construe them as racist or sexist - and I’m not sure why there is the thought that they would be. I agree that selecting by race, and using that as a proxy for diversity is a sham. I have much more in common with an affluent black male that went to an Ivy League undergrad then I do with an Indian or Chinese or white person (‘medical majority races’) whose parents were destitute and/or abusive, and went to Rutgers on aid.

The gender thing - well no one really has addressed that study. I find that I see it in real life and study supports what I see. Women generally are treated in a more casual way then men are in that type of setting. If there are ideas to fix that, I’d love to hear them. If you reject that it occurs, I’d love to hear some evidence for that, as well.

As far as being rejected by a patient due to your race... raise your hand if it has happened to you. Not a subtle way. I mean a - “I don’t want a <insert race> Doctor.” My hand is up. So, forgive me if I’m not that worried about that happening to a white male physician. It happens. It brought me to tears. And then I moved on.

“The way to stop discriminating on the basis of race is... to stop discriminating on the basis of race.” One of the few things I agree with John Roberts with about.
 
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KHE88 said:
To the poster who basically said it's wrong that I think I can't have opinions like this because I assume everyone will be out to get me. Well, I think most people are reasonable and can look at things logically. But the problem is a vocal minority, specifically the kinds of people who use twitter and forums like ROhub for the purposes of virtue signaling and self-promotion, will absolutely attack you for any sort of disagreement. Remember what happened to that guy who posted some honestly mild criticism and a differing viewpoint regarding all this perceived victimization on ROhub?
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Unfortunately, those pesky, old white males advanced the field to the point where all we have left is residency expansion, geographic limitations, and this **** show.
 
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What attacks? Who is calling you names? Who is calling you racist or sexist?

I will personally defend your honor!

And to call someone a “Trump-****”... it’s 2019, guys. A little un-PC. We all know people that would be hurt by words like this. It’s just cruel to say things like that. Words like that, like Trum-pids, like Trump-orons, Trumpidiots. To say people are engaging in Trumpfoolery, to make light using these types of words. Let’s try to avoid that.

KHE88 said:
It's quite perverse that the response from multiple posters to my opinion has been to go after my character by saying I'm the one with the problem because I shouldn't feel attacked for having ideas that some people will attack me over. And to belittle the validity of my criticism by saying things like I am just intentionally trying to be edgy... as if I'm not really saying anything of substance and just trying to stir the pot and get a reaction.
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radoncgrad2019 said:
‘interior get the guys who went to the caribbean and failed their boards multiple times?’

Lol because these are the FMGs who are entering our field

Man you have got a lot to learn!
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You have a very strong misunderstanding of our field if you do not think that FMGs and IMGs did not create significant portions of the Rad Onc training community, especially in the 70s and 80s, at minimum. Seriously, you are alone on this and do not understand the history of our field if that is really your thought process.

Regardless - argue the ideas with other users on SDN. Attacking them on a personal level will lead to further warnings and potential suspension of privileges of posting on SDN. 2 posts deleted.
 
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evilbooyaa said:
You have a very strong misunderstanding of our field if you do not think that FMGs and IMGs did not create significant portions of the Rad Onc training community, especially in the 70s and 80s, at minimum. Seriously, you are alone on this and do not understand the history of our field if that is really your thought process.

Regardless - argue the ideas with other users on SDN. Attacking them on a personal level will lead to further warnings and potential suspension of privileges of posting on SDN. 2 posts deleted.
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Yes the FMGs that are currently matching into our field fail the boards multiple times.

Please get your facts correct.
 
evilbooyaa said:
Not currently. Historically.
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and currently was the crux of the discussion. please see the posts where this was discussed, if interested.

furthermore, I know medgator found two carribean grads from the 90s who are now in rad onc, that's great, but that is far from droves and droves of them, and in addition, I doubt either Stephanie Weiss or Sameer Keole failed their boards multiple times. so it does not really fit for historically either.

everyone knows rad onc used to be less competitive. that's not really something I'm arguing.
 
Quoting from KHE's post immediately before yours:

"Historically, FMGs occupy rural areas because they often have substandard medical training and are less competitive for competitive positions, so they have to go where they can get jobs, not because they are just trying to make the most money possible. So you're totally cool with the field SOAPing more FMGs because they're all going to go rural and solve the rural problem? Why do the patients on the coast deserve the best docs from the best schools while the farmers in the interior get the guys who went to the caribbean and failed their boards multiple times? "

However, if you are talking about recently , then yes, that line is hyperbole.

It would be more of a potential issue in fields outside of rad-onc, but in general a caribbean grad with multiple board failures would be hard pressed in the current era to match into ANY field of medicine in the US.

To be clear - I think there will be more FMGs/IMGs matching into Rad Onc this year. I do think they'll still have to be at least near the top of their class to match though. The folks who are bottom of the barrel Carib grads don't match at all, like in any field.
 
evilbooyaa said:
Quoting from KHE's post immediately before yours:

"Historically, FMGs occupy rural areas because they often have substandard medical training and are less competitive for competitive positions, so they have to go where they can get jobs, not because they are just trying to make the most money possible. So you're totally cool with the field SOAPing more FMGs because they're all going to go rural and solve the rural problem? Why do the patients on the coast deserve the best docs from the best schools while the farmers in the interior get the guys who went to the caribbean and failed their boards multiple times? "

However, if you are talking about recently , then yes, that line is hyperbole.

It would be more of a potential issue in fields outside of rad-onc, but in general a caribbean grad with multiple board failures would be hard pressed in the current era to match into ANY field of medicine in the US.

To be clear - I think there will be more FMGs/IMGs matching into Rad Onc this year. I do think they'll still have to be at least near the top of their class to match though. The folks who are bottom of the barrel Carib grads don't match at all, like in any field.
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We need to stop saying FMG like they all the same

There a difference b/w someone from another country who got into a great Med school there and wants to come to USA for a better life

Vs ppl in the USA who can’t get into med school and go to the Caribbean

It’s the former (true FMG) who goes to the rural areas for visa requirements/path to citizenship

The latter (US citizen caribbean med school grad), once in the system, wants the same thing the rest of us who got into med school here want
 
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Not for nothin' but we would not have the core textbook we have, Perez & Brady, and indeed our specialty probably would not separately exist, were it not for a particular Caribbean medical grad.
 
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scarbrtj said:
Not for nothin' but we would not have the core textbook we have, Perez & Brady, and indeed our specialty probably would not separately exist, were it not for a particular Caribbean medical grad.
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In case it wasn't clear above, I'm advocating for true FMG immigrants coming to the US for a better life.

Similarly, Dr. Perez was trained in Colombia and came to the US and did great things

No so much a fan of US born citizen who go to caribbean b/c they couldn't get into med school here
 
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KHE88 said:
There are so many things wrong with this, I don't even know where to begin.

At least you are ideologically consistent in that you see no problem with factoring in sex and color in hiring, whether women, men, white, or brown.

As a rural doc, I'm sick of this hate a few posters keep dumping on Arkansas and WVU, saying they won't hire their grads etc. They are NOT the problem. The problem is the massive academic centers on the coasts expanding their residencies. The handful of spots that Arkansas and WVU occupy, which are intended to help serve these communities that the coastal grads turn their noses up at, are basically inconsequential compared to the dozens of extra grads flooding the urban metros because of big academic program expansion.

Regarding your comment about FMGs... really? You're going to paint all the foreign docs with a broad brush and say they're all just in it for the money and will do anything for the money because that's all FMGs care about? Hope you didn't mean that, but that's not a good look. Historically, FMGs occupy rural areas because they often have substandard medical training and are less competitive for competitive positions, so they have to go where they can get jobs, not because they are just trying to make the most money possible. So you're totally cool with the field SOAPing more FMGs because they're all going to go rural and solve the rural problem? Why do the patients on the coast deserve the best docs from the best schools while the farmers in the interior get the guys who went to the caribbean and failed their boards multiple times?
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Just my perspective as a 1st/2nd generation immigrant with a FMG father and many uncles who are retired but also many cousins now who are FMG's:

In my parents' generation, the father MD took a job wherever he could, which was for various reasons in an "undesirable location." His housewife followed and managed the household and family while the MD husband worked 50-60+ hours/week. It made no difference to the wife and kids where the father took the job since the wife was always a homemaker.

Fast forward a generation or so and the MD husband is married to an MD wife, so they are a little more restricted in where they can move and work but oftentimes both MD's can find a job in the same "undesirable" location (and make a silly amount of money doing so).

Nowadays, the MD husband is married to a highly educated, career-oriented woman who usually or at least oftentimes isn't a physician so the family can't move to an "undesirable" location since it doesn't work for the wife's career (and there are now even plenty of IMG women MD's married to men who aren't physicians, at least in my family).

Just my personal experience but something to consider: FMG's in the 2020's aren't going to flock to rural and undesirable locations like they did in the 1970's and 1980's.
 
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oldking said:
Just my perspective as a 1st/2nd generation immigrant with a FMG father and many uncles who are retired but also many cousins now who are FMG's:

In my parents' generation, the father MD took a job wherever he could, which was for various reasons in an "undesirable location." His housewife followed and managed the household and family while the MD husband worked 50-60+ hours/week. It made no difference to the wife and kids where the father took the job since the wife was always a homemaker.

Fast forward a generation or so and the MD husband is married to an MD wife, so they are a little more restricted in where they can move and work but oftentimes both MD's can find a job in the same "undesirable" location (and make a silly amount of money doing so).

Nowadays, the MD husband is married to a highly educated, career-oriented woman who usually or at least oftentimes isn't a physician so the family can't move to an "undesirable" location since it doesn't work for the wife's career (and there are now even plenty of IMG women MD's married to men who aren't physicians, at least in my family).

Just my personal experience but something to consider: FMG's in the 2020's aren't going to flock to rural and undesirable locations like they did in the 1970's and 1980's.
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So who's going to go to the rural areas and solve this problem?

My impression working in a rural area so far that it is mostly men, a lot of white men, many of whom are single/divorced, or have wives they fly home to see every weekend. Or they are married to homemakers or less career-oriented women (nurses, secretaries, etc). There are a few foreign MD couples, not many. The biggest recruiting problem according to HR is overwhelmingly getting the spouse, usually female, to agree to come here. I agree that most 2nd generation immigrants don't want to go to a rural area at any cost. Not a lot of female docs out here, especially specialists.

So what's going on there? Why the massive imbalance in men/women in rural areas and fewer minorities compared to the past? Are these old white men conspiring to systematically deprive the women and minorities of these high earning rural jobs? I think I need to publish a NEJM article on this obvious sexism and diversity problem in rural areas. Nothing else could possibly explain it.
 
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KHE88 said:
So who's going to go to the rural areas and solve this problem?

My impression working in a rural area so far that it is mostly men, a lot of white men, many of whom are single/divorced, or have wives they fly home to see every weekend. Or they are married to homemakers or less career-oriented women (nurses, secretaries, etc). There are a few foreign MD couples, not many. The biggest recruiting problem according to HR is overwhelmingly getting the spouse, usually female, to agree to come here. I agree that most 2nd generation immigrants don't want to go to a rural area at any cost. Not a lot of female docs out here, especially specialists.

So what's going on there? Why the massive imbalance in men/women in rural areas and fewer minorities compared to the past? Are these old white men conspiring to systematically deprive the women and minorities of these high earning rural jobs? I think I need to publish a NEJM article on this obvious sexism and diversity problem in rural areas. Nothing else could possibly explain it.
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Do you have an understanding of what it's like being a minority in one of those areas? Just curious.
 
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ROFallingDown said:
Do you have an understanding of what it's like being a minority in one of those areas? Just curious.
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To the extent that I am allowed to have that understanding.

It's also worth noting there is a large Hispanic immigrant population in many of these rural areas as they provide a lot of the agricultural labor.

This idea that the rural areas are full of racists who want to beat up minorities and make their lives hell is irritating to me. It's ignorant. Rural folks are mostly kind and decent people. They may not be up to date on whatever the en vogue PC terminology is, sure. But they generally mean well. And they tend to be extremely grateful to the specialist physicians, no matter their race, who move to town to fill that needed role. There are bad apples everywhere. And I've seen a lot of them in the coastal cities.
 
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Anecdotally, I dont know a single disadvantaged minority radiation doc who works in a rural area. (not that I would either if I were one)
 
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KHE88 said:
And they tend to be extremely grateful to the specialist physicians, no matter their race, who move to town to fill that needed role. There are bad apples everywhere. And I've seen a lot of them in the coastal cities.
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Well, when you see examples of crimes against ethnic/religious minorities in more rural/midwest areas, it does make someone think twice.

And no I haven't seen it to the same degree reported in more populated and diversified coastal areas, subjectively speaking.

www.theatlantic.com

My Life Since the 2012 Sikh Temple Shooting: Pardeep Singh Kaleka's Story

"Sandy Hook happened about four months after our shooting. And ... nothing really changed. Not enough to make up for the human suffering. But I do feel hopeful."
www.theatlantic.com www.theatlantic.com

www.usatoday.com

Kansas extremists convicted of plotting to bomb Somali refugees

Attorney General Jeff Sessions called the verdicts a significant victory against domestic terrorism and hate crimes.
www.usatoday.com

CAIR: Attack on Michigan Mosque Thwarted

/PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) today said that a bias-motivated attack on a Dearborn, Mich., mosque was thwarted...
www.prnewswire.com www.prnewswire.com
 
Wow. You sure know how to bring up the same points of how you’re not racist a lot. Most non racists do that i guess.

Did I say anyone was talking about beating up anybody? Or speaking about racism?

“To the extent that I’m allowed..”

I grant you the extent. Sounds like you live in one of those areas. You’d know a lot about it (not sarcasm).

What I was talking about was the experience. Not having the food you grew up with accessible, or the grocery store to buy the goods to make those foods. To not be able to share a celebration of a special festival or religious event with people. To not be able to have a movie you want to see in the theater.

You bring up the “-ism” much more than anyone else. It’s interesting to me.

KHE88 said:
To the extent that I am allowed to have that understanding.

It's also worth noting there is a large Hispanic immigrant population in many of these rural areas as they provide a lot of the agricultural labor.

This idea that the rural areas are full of racists who want to beat up minorities and make their lives hell is irritating to me. It's ignorant. Rural folks are mostly kind and decent people. They may not be up to date on whatever the en vogue PC terminology is, sure. But they generally mean well. And they tend to be extremely grateful to the specialist physicians, no matter their race, who move to town to fill that needed role. There are bad apples everywhere. And I've seen a lot of them in the coastal cities.
Click to expand...
 
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It’s really tragic when a Sikh gets terrorized or killed because some racist thinks they are Muslim.

“Dude, stop stabbing me, I’m the wrong minority!! Beat up my buddy, Sayeed- he’s the Islamic one!”

Sad because it’s true ..
 
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Most people in rural areas are good people. Many people do not want to go to these areas. Idk what the solution is as many of these places offer high salaries yet nobody goes. Basically what you are telling me is you cannot find someone married to an educated female who is willing to go to Quincy IL for 700k+. Even if you flooded the Residencies with White males they may meet the educated female SO who would still not be down to go to Quincy. So what gives?
 
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thecarbonionangle said:
Most people in rural areas are good people. Many people do not want to go to these areas. Idk what the solution is as many of these places offer high salaries yet nobody goes. Basically what you are telling me is you cannot find someone married to an educated female who is willing to go to Quincy IL for 700k+. Even if you flooded the Residencies with White males they may meet the educated female SO who would still not be down to go to Quincy. So what gives?
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this is true for all fields though. How is Quincy getting their urologists, their ENTs, their optho docs, etc?
 
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Neuronix said:
It's easy to tick a box that says someone is a different gender or ethnicity in order to show diversity.

I grew up poor with a schizophrenic mother who was in and out of the mental hospital. I bounced around lower class family members growing up. I went to a poor inner city high school and was always a minority growing up in my community. I have a GED, moved out when I was 16, and I was homeless for awhile in my late teens. I bummed around for a couple years before back dooring my way into my public state school. I'm a white guy, and so nobody ever knows the difference. Most people never want to hear about any of this. I have always had the stats to compete with everyone else, so I just go on trying to be a physician-scientist.

From my position, the discussion about increasing diversity through ethnicity and gender is just diversity by ticking boxes. I agree diversity of thought is important. But if thought is only about skin color, then what have we become as a society? That an african-american, latino, asian, etc have diverse thoughts just based on their ethnicity is a form of racism in itself to me. But the groupthink has become so common now that to even have a difference of opinion is like an attack. To go against the narrative of minorities means diversity is a microaggression that reflects bad on whoever speaks about it. So I don't usually say anything. I feel totally unable to discuss this with anyone in real life, despite being in an interracial marriage with mixed race children.

You could say that it's privilege that I blend in with the majority in medicine. But is it really? Nobody gave me extra money for education, and nobody has ever given me extra consideration for admission, promotion, grants, etc for my skin color. I've always just stepped up and brought the stats to compete on merit. Even when that meant working full-time in college, living in a $200 studio shoebox through college, and competing as a top pre-med with absolutely no pre-med prep whatsoever.

When I interview people now, I want to know--what are your ideas? What have you overcome? If you're a minority from a middle class or better background with the same message as everyone else, why should there be extra consideration? But this is too complicated. Tick a box, person is a minority, shows diversity. Improves stats. That's how the USA works nowadays in academics, and I don't want to be labelled as anti-diversity, so I will go back to my anonymous corner.
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winstonfoot5 said:

@RadOncMegatron
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1) I thank the Dr. Trombetta for his letter and the Red Journal for publishing it.

2) The reply from the authors: "we do not believe that the peer-reviewed data or practical solutions included in our editorial represent or endorse any particular ideology."

Do the authors really believe this? Is their echo chamber really that isolated? The pic below is NOT to disparage my liberal friends and colleagues, nor to say it is wrong only because it is Elizabeth Warren, but just to emphasize that obviously there is an ideological bias [please be charitable as I am not trying to get into a Democrat vs Republican flame war here]. Likewise, it would be foolish to say opposing medicare for all would not have a conservative ideological bias. Again, ideological bias doesn't mean that it is right or wrong, but if we can't honestly say this is more of liberal / left leaning idea, esp. when the thought leader attends something called the "Democratic Party Liberty and Justice dinner" than it indicates a fair conversation cannot be had.


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3) Yes, there are problems, but their proposed solutions are going to cause MORE problems (and historically they have) then they will solve. Again, I have harped on Dr. Reshma Jagsi and her crusade, b/c though some of it is nice in the abstract, when you have to actually actualize the plan on real flesh and blood people, like many of her white male colleagues in her own dept, that is when it gets difficult. She goes around country lecturing, but yet cannot implement her ideas in her own dept, to herself as a over represented minority who is among the elite of elites (MD from Harvard Med School and D.Phil from Oxford), and her family ie male, Asian-American, son. Start at home and with yourself and let's see what happens.

Again, they want to bring all this in to affect the patient - doctor relationship and it is here we must hold the line. Don't forget Penner et al's disastrous JCO article conclusion from this very poor study that should never have been published, let alone in JCO:

"Oncologist implicit racial bias is negatively associated with oncologist communication, patients’ reactions to racially discordant oncology interactions, and patient perceptions of recommended treatments. These perceptions could subsequently directly affect patient-treatment decisions. Thus, implicit racial bias is a likely source of racial treatment disparities and must be addressed in oncology training and practice."
 
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RadOncMegatron said:
3) Yes, there are problems, but their proposed solutions are going to cause MORE problems (and historically they have) then they will solve. Again, I have harped on Dr. Reshma Jagsi and her crusade, b/c though some of it is nice in the abstract, when you have to actually actualize the plan on real flesh and blood people, like many of her white male colleagues in her own dept, that is when it gets difficult. She goes around country lecturing, but yet cannot implement her ideas in her own dept, to herself as a over represented minority who is among the elite of elites (MD from Harvard Med School and D.Phil from Oxford), and her family ie male, Asian, son. Start at home and with yourself and let's see what happens.
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I agree with many of your points, but I take STRONG issue about that. He was born in America. He is her American son.

This is problematic in that you, an educated person, is calling an American person Asian, b/c of their skin color.

Be very careful with that...This is the "othering" that happens to many minorities in this country, particularly in red states and in rural areas. My "Indian" doctor = a 2nd generation dude was born in Cleveland and is married to a girl from Columbus who's family came to to the US from Germany 200 years ago. My "Chinese" doctor = his family came to SF at the turn of the century to build railroads and he doesn't speak a lick of Chinese.

The other views are valid.
 
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ROFallingDown said:
I agree with many of your points, but I take STRONG issue about that. He was born in America. He is her American son.

This is problematic in that you, an educated person, is calling an American person Asian, b/c of their skin color.

Be careful with that... the other views are valid.
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Noted.

Is Asian-American better? I think that is acceptable. [edited in my original post]

Also, I was emphasizing Asian as that is NOT an under represented minority and her rules would apply directly to him.
 
Why hyphenate? Why can't we just be Americans like you?
 
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1. The kid is American as apple pie.

2. Y'all allow Reshma Jagsi to occupy entirely too much space in your brain.
 
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"Oncologist implicit racial bias is negatively associated with oncologist communication, patients’ reactions to racially discordant oncology interactions, and patient perceptions of recommended treatments. These perceptions could subsequently directly affect patient-treatment decisions. Thus, implicit racial bias is a likely source of racial treatment disparities and must be addressed in oncology training and practice."
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So, given the apparent problem of attracting radoncs to rural areas AND problems with "implicit racial bias" (which I must state I disagree with on a fundamental level), we need to be attracting more white candidates into radonc then, right? Am I doing this correctly? Are we at least going to be ideologically consistent?
 
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ROFallingDown said:
Why hyphenate? Why can't we just be Americans like you?
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Ok, you know from all my quotes here that I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH YOUR SENTIMENT we are all Americans

I think it also extremely fair to note that I have been AGAINST categorization via gender, race, orientation.

Please be charitable and note that I was simply bringing up the point that those who I oppose bring up race all the time as a factor and I was using it to show the flaw of their argument.
 
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