Data on URM Physicians

[pp77]

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The multiple ongoing affirmative action debates on this board have piqued my interest in the status of URM physicians in this United States. Specifically, I am interested in two things:

1. How do URM students perform on the board exams? Looking for this information I could only find data for individual schools and an article from the National Review with no primary source.

2. Are URM physicians more likely to be subject to disciplinary action by state medical boards? I couldn't find any data on this at all.

If anybody has any links I would greatly appreciate it.

 

[MaenadsDance]

This article may be of interest to you: http://internationalgme.org/Resources/Pubs/Donnon%20et%20al%20%282007%29%20Acad%20Med.pdf

The authors conclude that the MCAT has low to medium predictive validity for success in medical school, and moderate predictive validity for success on Step 1 and Step 2.

It's still worth asking whether standardized tests are in fact the best way of assessing the skill of a physician; can't say I know much about that.

 

[BigBlueBear]

I'd be interested to see if there is some relationship between URM and "how good of a doctor you are"

Whether that would be surveying patients for quality of care or whatever I don't know. Probably not possible to quantitatively determine how good a doctor is :/

Edit: I am not implying at all that URM's are worse or better doctors. I just think the relationship I suggested would tell us more than board scores.

 

[MaenadsDance]

Yeah; I know a girl from school who wants to go to med school because she spent her childhood translating for a sick relative who spoke only spoke Spanish. I think she knows a heckuva lot more about clinical environments than a lot of pre-meds I know, but it may not show on her application as traditional ECs.

 

[lobo.solo]

The multiple ongoing affirmative action debates on this board have piqued my interest in the status of URM physicians in this United States. Specifically, I am interested in two things:

1. How do URM students perform on the board exams? Looking for this information I could only find data for individual schools and an article from the National Review with no primary source.

2. Are URM physicians more likely to be subject to disciplinary action by state medical boards? I couldn't find any data on this at all.

If anybody has any links I would greatly appreciate it.

It's interesting how you word your questions, particularly number 2. There is an inherent bias on how you ask it, hinting to the a particular result you expect.

 

[lobo.solo]

Anyways, here is two

1. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2951774/
2. http://www.hrsa.gov/advisorycommittees/bhpradvisory/cogme/Reports/seventeenthrpt.pdf

A quote from link 1, the discussion section.

Despite poorer performance on standardized tests and unequal academic credentials, our first-year URM interns performed similarly to their Non-Hispanic White and Asian American counterparts on a single examination of clinical performance. These findings support previous research that suggests that the value of the Medical College Admission Test (MCAT) and undergraduate grade point averages lies in the prediction of preclinical knowledge among medical students, and these tests may not necessarily predict successful performance in residents or practicing physicians.3,18 These findings are especially critical in light of the recent abandonment of many affirmative action policies that had historically increased the minority physician pipeline.

A quote from link 2 page 1.

Increasing the number of URM physicians is an important step for improving health care for minority and underserved populations and, consequently, for decreasing health
disparities, one of the Nation's leading health priorities (7). Studies have shown that minority patients sometimes receive less health care and are less satisfied with their care when their physician is of a different race or ethnicity (8-14). Patients who lack proficiency in the English language also have less satisfaction with their health care and more difficulty
in obtaining care than those patients who have no language barriers (8,15-17). Studies also show that, compared to non-underrepresented physicians, URM physicians provide more care to minorities, the underserved, the uninsured, those insured by Medicaid, and low-income persons (18-20). Recent study has suggested that URM physicians may have more difficulty getting their patients admitted to hospitals and referring them to specialists or for testing (21). These studies indicate the need to train more well-qualified URM
physicians and to address systemic and institutional barriers that URM physicians may face.

 

[pp77]

Anyways, here is two

1. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2951774/
2. http://www.hrsa.gov/advisorycommittees/bhpradvisory/cogme/Reports/seventeenthrpt.pdf

A quote from link 1, the discussion section.

Despite poorer performance on standardized tests and unequal academic credentials, our first-year URM interns performed similarly to their Non-Hispanic White and Asian American counterparts on a single examination of clinical performance. These findings support previous research that suggests that the value of the Medical College Admission Test (MCAT) and undergraduate grade point averages lies in the prediction of preclinical knowledge among medical students, and these tests may not necessarily predict successful performance in residents or practicing physicians.3,18 These findings are especially critical in light of the recent abandonment of many affirmative action policies that had historically increased the minority physician pipeline.

This is an interesting result which, if it can be generalized, clearly has serious implications for health policy in this country (far beyond affirmative action, imo).

 

[Dbate]

This is an interesting result which, if it can be generalized, clearly has serious implications for health policy in this country (far beyond affirmative action, imo).

It's not that surprising. Look at DOs. They objectively have worse stats than MDs, but I doubt there is any clinical difference.

The intellectual bar (MCAT/GPA requirements) that is set to become a physician is a lot higher than is necessary to actually practice medicine.

 

[Dbate]

As a side note, as an URM student (black male) all these threads seem really hostile. I consider myself fairly competent for the medical profession (35 mcat, 3.5 gpa), but all this hostility makes me wonder how my future "colleagues" will treat me. At the very least, I certainly wouldn't want to attend any school that demonstrated as much animosity as I have seen on SDN.

I'm sure this won't matter to many of you. But there seems to be a thin line between criticism and racism occurring here and yes, the URMs notice.

 

[NontradCA]

As a side note, as an URM student (black male) all these threads seem really hostile. I consider myself fairly competent for the medical profession (35 mcat, 3.5 gpa), but all this hostility makes me wonder how my future "colleagues" will treat me. At the very least, I certainly wouldn't want to attend any school that demonstrated as much animosity as I have seen on SDN.

I'm sure this won't matter to many of you. But there seems to be a thin line between criticism and racism occurring here and yes, the URMs notice.

It's not like they'd ever say it out loud though so it's really a non issue.

 

[pp77]

As a side note, as an URM student (black male) all these threads seem really hostile. I consider myself fairly competent for the medical profession (35 mcat, 3.5 gpa), but all this hostility makes me wonder how my future "colleagues" will treat me. At the very least, I certainly wouldn't want to attend any school that demonstrated as much animosity as I have seen on SDN.

I'm sure this won't matter to many of you. But there seems to be a thin line between criticism and racism occurring here and yes, the URMs notice.

I certainly don't intend to be hostile. I think many of us are just confused; ADCOMs defend affirmative action policies by claiming that the MCAT is flawed and generally devaluing it, yet admissions statistics clearly show a significant preference for high MCAT scores (all other things being equal).

 

[pp77]

It's not that surprising. Look at DOs. They objectively have worse stats than MDs, but I doubt there is any clinical difference.

The intellectual bar (MCAT/GPA requirements) that is set to become a physician is a lot higher than is necessary to actually practice medicine.

It makes one wonder if there's any reason for these hurdles (i.e. MCAT) besides guild protection.

 

[MaenadsDance]

It's not like they'd ever say it out loud though so it's really a non issue.

In my experience, racist bigots are usually very happy to broadcast their racism to people they think will be sympathetic. I think you are being dismissive.

I agree that a lot of the URM threads come off as very hostile, and it's gross as heck.

 

[KnuxNole]

In my experience, racist bigots are usually very happy to broadcast their racism to people they think will be sympathetic. I think you are being dismissive.

I agree that a lot of the URM threads come off as very hostile, and it's gross as heck.

And those same people get called out and embarrassed in public, or beaten down to a bloody pulp 😱

 

[MaenadsDance]

And those same people get called out and embarrassed in public, or beaten down to a bloody pulp 😱

Uh... not in my experience. In various jobs I've held I have been ordered to follow people around the store because they weren't white and therefore were suspected by my manager of being there to shoplift, and when I refused I was told that he was a huge fan of racial profiling. When I went to a majority-white school, I've had an instructor say breathtakingly racist things and nobody called him on it ("slavery wasn't so bad, and it was wrong for slaveowners to free their slaves" as a sample). He had tenure, and nothing was ever done even though students complained to administration.

 

[The Beyonder]

I certainly don't intend to be hostile. I think many of us are just confused; ADCOMs defend affirmative action policies by claiming that the MCAT is flawed and generally devaluing it, yet admissions statistics clearly show a significant preference for high MCAT scores (all other things being equal).

12,000 White students where admitted to med school with sub 30 scores.
https://www.aamc.org/download/321518/data/2012factstable25-4.pdf
2,800 Asian students where admitted to med school with sub 30 scores.
https://www.aamc.org/download/321516/data/2012factstable25-3.pdf
2,400 Black students where admitted to med school with sub 30 scores.
https://www.aamc.org/download/321514/data/2012factstable25-2.pdf

If you're outraged about students with low scores becoming doctors, why are these students never addressed?

 

[BigBlueBear]

12,000 White students where admitted to med school with sub 30 scores.
https://www.aamc.org/download/321518/data/2012factstable25-4.pdf
2,800 Asian students where admitted to med school with sub 30 scores.
https://www.aamc.org/download/321516/data/2012factstable25-3.pdf
2,400 Black students where admitted to med school with sub 30 scores.
https://www.aamc.org/download/321514/data/2012factstable25-2.pdf

If your outraged about students with low score becoming doctors, why are these students never addressed?

Well this is a dumb argument. We'd need to see percentages for this to matter.

 

[akinetopsia]

12,000 White students where admitted to med school with sub 30 scores.
https://www.aamc.org/download/321518/data/2012factstable25-4.pdf
2,800 Asian students where admitted to med school with sub 30 scores.
https://www.aamc.org/download/321516/data/2012factstable25-3.pdf
2,400 Black students where admitted to med school with sub 30 scores.
https://www.aamc.org/download/321514/data/2012factstable25-2.pdf

If your outraged about students with low score becoming doctors, why are these students never addressed?

12,000 White Students/2,800 Asian Students/2,400 Black Students out of how many White/Asian/Black students with a sub-30 MCAT?

12,000 White students out of 36,000 White students would be 33%.
2,800 Asian students out of 10,000 Asian students would be 28%.
2,400 Black Students out of 5,000 Black students would be just under 50%.

These are all made up numbers, but don't more white students generally apply than black students? Percentages matter, like the previous poster said. Those numbers don't bode well if it's the same number that are applying with sub-30 MCATs, like 15,000 of each, but it's not likely that's true.

 

[solesurprise]

as a side note, as an urm student (black male) all these threads seem really hostile. I consider myself fairly competent for the medical profession (35 mcat, 3.5 gpa), but all this hostility makes me wonder how my future "colleagues" will treat me. At the very least, i certainly wouldn't want to attend any school that demonstrated as much animosity as i have seen on sdn.

I'm sure this won't matter to many of you. But there seems to be a thin line between criticism and racism occurring here and yes, the urms notice.

+1

 

[Narmerguy]

Well this is a dumb argument. We'd need to see percentages for this to matter.

His point is simply that if people are mad about medical school seats being "wasted" on applicants with low stats, there are far more of these seats going to non-URMs than to URMs. Obviously they go to URMs at a higher rate, but it's odd that no one is up in arms about the legions of non-URMs that get in with low stats.

Personally, I think this obsession with "stats" as the definitive measure of "merit" to be hypocritical and pointless. How many people would complain if medical schools just skimmed off the best MCAT scores and GPA off the top, regardless of ECs, personal background, social adjustment, upward trends, blah blah blah. No one wants that, and that's precisely because we all believe that though MCAT/GPA should be important, they shouldn't define us as students or as future physicians. But somehow certain people tend to want to waive the MCAT/GPA banner when it suits their arguments about why some students shouldn't be admitted while others should. It's silly, at best.

 

[pp77]

His point is simply that if people are mad about medical school seats being "wasted" on applicants with low stats, there are far more of these seats going to non-URMs than to URMs. Obviously they go to URMs at a higher rate, but it's odd that no one is up in arms about the legions of non-URMs that get in with low stats.

I've made that point in other threads and nobody responded to it. The problems is that pre-meds and medical students are in general naive and focus on superficialities, hence they won't make the connection between the student mentioning that she is a "bad test taker" also being, by rare coincidence, the daughter of a prominent local physician.

We live in an oligarchic society and higher education is the primary engine perpetuating the inequity.

 

[illwill3cp]

12,000 White Students/2,800 Asian Students/2,400 Black Students out of how many White/Asian/Black students with a sub-30 MCAT?

12,000 White students out of 36,000 White students would be 33%.
2,800 Asian students out of 10,000 Asian students would be 28%.
2,400 Black Students out of 5,000 Black students would be just under 50%.

These are all made up numbers, but don't more white students generally apply than black students? Percentages matter, like the previous poster said. Those numbers don't bode well if it's the same number that are applying with sub-30 MCATs, like 15,000 of each, but it's not likely that's true.

But what if we took the percentages based on the population of the United States? Not just those that apply to medical school.

 

[plumazul]

But what if we took the percentages based on the population of the United States? Not just those that apply to medical school.

👍👍
Which is the very basis for the concept of being URM. It's about the patients. It's about better outcomes, saving lives. That's how we measure success in our future profession.

 

[yos]

I don't anyone (I would hope not) holds it against a disadvantaged URM who uses AA as a leg up in admissions. It's the ones who have parents that are doctors or lawyers and have no intention of serving undeserved communities who use it as a means of getting an acceptance, or going from a mid tier to a top ten or to get a large recruitment scholarship out of it (know someone who did this, great guy but it left me with an uneasy feeling about AA since).

Dude, you've got so many advantages in life, Privileged URMs who mark down their race seem to be playing the system. They aren't really breaking any rules but they are taking spots from underprivileged URMs who are probably more likely to help communities.

When you think it about, you can't really blame them. Adcoms that pick a high stat privileged URM over a disadvantaged URM with slightly lower stats are the problem. This happens a lot because schools are worried about their overall numbers.

A friend works at college admissions for undergrads. The URM thing is really messed up there. A privileged URM is hot commodity because the school knows they will have less of a financial obligation if they accept the privileged one and still manage to keep the class "diverse".

The hostility you sense is towards the broken system, not individual people. People (adcoms and students) will game the system to best benefit themselves, often losing the original intentions behind why that system was put in place.

 

[pp77]

👍👍
Which is the very basis for the concept of being URM. It's about the patients. It's about better outcomes, saving lives. That's how we measure success in our future profession.

This is why some of us want to see the measurements.

 

[Dr SunDai]

I don't anyone (I would hope not) holds it against a disadvantaged URM who uses AA as a leg up in admissions. It's the ones who have parents that are doctors or lawyers and have no intention of serving undeserved communities who use it as a means of getting an acceptance, or going from a mid tier to a top ten or to get a large recruitment scholarship out of it (know someone who did this, great guy but it left me with an uneasy feeling about AA since).

Dude, you've got so many advantages in life, Privileged URMs who mark down their race seem to be playing the system. They aren't really breaking any rules but they are taking spots from underprivileged URMs who are probably more likely to help communities.

When you think it about, you can't really blame them. Adcoms that pick a high stat privileged URM over a disadvantaged URM with slightly lower stats are the problem. This happens a lot because schools are worried about their overall numbers.

A friend works at college admissions for undergrads. The URM thing is really messed up there. A privileged URM is more likely to be accepted because the school knows they will have less of a financial obligation if they accept the privileged one and still manage to keep the class "diverse".

The hostility you sense is towards the broken system, not individual people. People (adcoms and students) will game the system to best benefit themselves, often losing the original intentions behind why that system was put in place.

I agree with some of your post.

The majority of URM students enrolled in medical school come from 2 parent, stable households; I've seen quite a few that have parents who are physicians or some other affluent professional. As a professional, the parents are able to provide opportunities, assist in navigating the educational process, etc. Most often the damage is done way too early in life for those URM who should be receiving assistance. There are too many road blocks to admissions than can be listed here. The point is...educational and financial intervention needs to start prior to these augmented admissions standards in order to help the URM students that need it.

 

[plumazul]

This is why some of us want to see the measurements.

"Measurements"? Do you mean like:

2. Are URM physicians more likely to be subject to disciplinary action by state medical boards?

Would you also like to know:

3. Are URM physicians more likely to sell illicit drugs to patients?

4. Is there more petty theft in hospitals with large numbers of URM students?

or perhaps something else?

 

[pp77]

"Measurements"? Do you mean like:



Would you also like to know:

3. Are URM physicians more likely to sell illicit drugs to patients?

4. Is there more petty theft in hospitals with large numbers of URM students?

or perhaps something else?

I guess those figures would be interesting to know, but I'm not concerned with them because those seem like trivial problems compared to medical malpractice and errors. By some estimates 98,000 people/year are killed by medical errors in the United States, with many more injured and hundreds of billions in associated costs (this may go some of the way towards explaining our poor health outcomes compared to other industrialized and industrializing nations). I doubt that physicians deal illegal drugs on anything like the same scale (dentists may be a different story!).

 

[solesurprise]

.

 

[krisalexs]

Wow this thread is full of racism and bigotry. These are the questions we have faced our entire lives, are we good enough? Yet no one goes through life checking non minorities and questioning what types of Dr. You will be every step of the way. If the ADCOM saw it fit that this person is a good fit for the school and to become a future psychian why are you questioning that? Do you go through all your other clasmates and dissect their home lives etc and say oh yea I knew somebody more poor than him probably shouldve gotten in.

And you do realize that being an URM is not just about your financial status. Its that you are truly underepresented. As in you didnt see doctors that looked like you often, if at all, because the numbers just don't support that you'd see that many. Which is why its still impressive you fought the grain and still went in search of medicine. Most of you posters non URM can flip through a random phone book put your finger down and more than likely that will be a white Dr. More than likely male.

This is getting really old and really fast. Will my post probably change your ignorance. Probably not, but I am tired of sitting by and watching inappropriate comments get hurled around and condoned by others saying no we are mad at the system not the individual, thats a joke. The easiest way to spot a bigot is they usually start their comments I'm not trying to be offensive, but.... followed by the slander. I am not worried about how you'll treat your URM colleagues, because by the time we get to that stage we have seen it and heard it all. Im concerned for your patients, you can't turn this type of mindset on and off. Good Luck to you all and I hope you wake up

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using SDN Mobile

 

[KnuxNole]

If someone actually cries because they feel their "seat" was taken by a URM, then they should have just had a better app 😛

 

[Narmerguy]

I don't anyone (I would hope not) holds it against a disadvantaged URM who uses AA as a leg up in admissions. It's the ones who have parents that are doctors or lawyers and have no intention of serving undeserved communities who use it as a means of getting an acceptance, or going from a mid tier to a top ten or to get a large recruitment scholarship out of it (know someone who did this, great guy but it left me with an uneasy feeling about AA since).

Dude, you've got so many advantages in life, Privileged URMs who mark down their race seem to be playing the system. They aren't really breaking any rules but they are taking spots from underprivileged URMs who are probably more likely to help communities.

When you think it about, you can't really blame them. Adcoms that pick a high stat privileged URM over a disadvantaged URM with slightly lower stats are the problem. This happens a lot because schools are worried about their overall numbers.

A friend works at college admissions for undergrads. The URM thing is really messed up there. A privileged URM is hot commodity because the school knows they will have less of a financial obligation if they accept the privileged one and still manage to keep the class "diverse".

The hostility you sense is towards the broken system, not individual people. People (adcoms and students) will game the system to best benefit themselves, often losing the original intentions behind why that system was put in place.

There are not "spots." People need to let go of this notion that anyone, URM or otherwise, has a spot that they're entitled to.

More importantly, schools seek diversity in a number of ways. That means that they want ethnic diversity, they want socioeconomic diversity, and they probably want ethnic socioeconomic diversity as well (low income Asians, high income asians, low income URM, high income URM). It doesn't stop there. They want applicants that have lived abroad, applicants that grew up in rural areas, applicants that have had past careers, applicants that can speak another language, applicants that have had to overcome significant medical illnesses, applicants that have had to balance raising a kid with their daily life, applicants who are older, applicants who love research, applicants who love teaching, applicants who want to go into policy, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc. Medical schools want a class that is diverse and that will challenge each other and enrich each other's education, and they also want students that will go out and do different things in the world.

The MCAT and the GPA are two tools that are used to assess applicants, but those are hardly the only tools they use, and I have yet to see someone argue they are the only ones that should be used. So why the sudden focus on pointing out that some applicants have lower MCAT/GPAs? So long as they are producing competent physicians, medical schools can accept whoever they like, and no one is entitled to feel angry because "their spot" was taken. What's hilarious is that the only thing people feel entitles them to these spots is MCAT/GPA scores, as if this is the definitive measurement of merit. Even still, despite the variety of applicants with diverse backgrounds that get accepted with low MCAT/GPA, we tend to most often hear complaints about one group in particular.

 

[pp77]

I believe the point that plumazul was making is that asking if URM doctors are more subject to disciplinary action is based on stereotypes about Blacks and Latinos. Especially because you specified "URM doctors", not, for example, "doctors who had low GPA/low MCAT".

The low-stats should be variable that concerns you, not the URM status of the doctors. And in that case, you should also care about low-stat White and Asian physicians as well. Especially because there are, in fact, *more* low-stat Asian and White physicians than there are URM ones.

I've already said that I care about low-stat non-URM applicants:

've made that point in other threads and nobody responded to it. The problems is that pre-meds and medical students are in general naive and focus on superficialities, hence they won't make the connection between the student mentioning that she is a "bad test taker" also being, by rare coincidence, the daughter of a prominent local physician.

We live in an oligarchic society and higher education is the primary engine perpetuating the inequity.

I'm opposed to the "holistic" system and would prefer a strictly (or mostly) test-based system à la most other countries (though I admit that there are drawbacks to this approach). However, there is very little data available on admissions of e.g. children of medical-school faculty members. By contrast, we live in a country where people are obsessed with so-called "races," resulting in huge volumes of detailed statistical analysis. But they are both products of the same system, and to the extent that there is a problem with the system it will be, I believe, equally reflected in both groups. Simply put, if low-MCAT/low-GPA physicians are incompetent or a danger to the public, this will be reflected in URM performance (since they tend to have lower MCAT scores and lower GPAs).

 

[pp77]

There are not "spots." People need to let go of this notion that anyone, URM or otherwise, has a spot that they're entitled to.

More importantly, schools seek diversity in a number of ways. That means that they want ethnic diversity, they want socioeconomic diversity, and they probably want ethnic socioeconomic diversity as well (low income Asians, high income asians, low income URM, high income URM). It doesn't stop there. They want applicants that have lived abroad, applicants that grew up in rural areas, applicants that have had past careers, applicants that can speak another language, applicants that have had to overcome significant medical illnesses, applicants that have had to balance raising a kid with their daily life, applicants who are older, applicants who love research, applicants who love teaching, applicants who want to go into policy, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc. Medical schools want a class that is diverse and that will challenge each other and enrich each other's education, and they also want students that will go out and do different things in the world.

The MCAT and the GPA are two tools that are used to assess applicants, but those are hardly the only tools they use, and I have yet to see someone argue they are the only ones that should be used. So why the sudden focus on pointing out that some applicants have lower MCAT/GPAs? So long as they are producing competent physicians, medical schools can accept whoever they like, and no one is entitled to feel angry because "their spot" was taken. What's hilarious is that the only thing people feel entitles them to these spots is MCAT/GPA scores, as if this is the definitive measurement of merit. Even still, despite the variety of applicants with diverse backgrounds that get accepted with low MCAT/GPA, we tend to most often hear complaints about one group in particular.

My experience is that medical school student bodies are quite homogeneous economically (that is, most were comfortable growing up and are poor now). If you have data showing that medical schools prefer socioeconomic diversity in their students I'd be interested to see it.

As far as producing competent physicians, given the overall sorry state of the U.S. healthcare system, it seems you are begging the question.

 

[pachewisc]

For those who wanted hard numbers for 2012 matriculants:

Hispanic or Latino (aggregate): ~29/~3.58 (n=~1725)
Black or African American: 26.8/3.46 (n=1182)
Asian: 32.5/3.71 (n=4068)
Native American: 26.7/3.49 (n=52)
White: 31.6/3.71 (n=11012)

Total: 31.2/3.68 (n=19517)

https://www.aamc.org/download/321498/data/2012factstable19.pdf

 

[Silo004]

Anyways, here is two

1. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2951774/
2. http://www.hrsa.gov/advisorycommittees/bhpradvisory/cogme/Reports/seventeenthrpt.pdf

The first paper's sample size is fairly small and restricted to one school, the University of Michigan.

Also re: OP question on board scores -- African Americans' tend to be screened out from IM residencies for lower board scores. This is evidence that blacks score lower on USMLE board scores.

The interesting finding to me is that in the first paper URM's did not perform better re: cultural competencies, but again the sample size is small.

An older paper from 1999 found the differences between URM and non-URM physicians insignificant as far as practicing goes. Couldn't read this one b/c it's behind a pay wall. Also URM's are more likely to practice w/ the underserved and in areas that are often less popular e.g. Detroit.

But that only explains so much of the URM advantage. Given the historical abuses against blacks and the present public health challenges facing the black community many of the premier health institutions feel somewhat responsible. And rightly so, hence the URM advantage.

Is the guilt misplaced? Maybe, but I doubt it. Is the URM advantage a great means of addressing the health care problems facing URM's? There are papers that suggest it may be. And is it fair to non-URM's? Probably not. Definitely not if we consider getting admitted to top schools a question of GPA, MCAT scores. But if one's goal is to become a physician, I question the importance of not only the preceding question, but also and the OP question?

HB medical schools exist in this country for good reasons -- and actually pernicious ones too. But let's just do some back of the envelope calculations. The number of blacks admitted to medical school from 2010-2012 was 4230. Let's assume the numbers were equal across the three years -- so 1410 a year. There are about 300 HB medical school seats -- let's just say blacks get 90% of those so we are down to 1140. There were an average of 19137 allopathic seats over the three years. So blacks are occupying just under 6% of seats at non-allopathic medical schools.

 

[Narmerguy]

My experience is that medical school student bodies are quite homogeneous economically (that is, most were comfortable growing up and are poor now). If you have data showing that medical schools prefer socioeconomic diversity in their students I'd be interested to see it.

As far as producing competent physicians, given the overall sorry state of the U.S. healthcare system, it seems you are begging the question.

There is an entire section of the application to talk about disadvantaged status. You're asking for data that doesn't exist. Will you find data on students from diverse backgrounds, language abilities, leadership experience, interviewing ability, communication skills, etc etc? These are all things that many medical schools clearly care about but you'll not see data on it.

Unless you're somehow trying to suggest that the state of the US healthcare system is somehow a result of mass physician incompetence, I'm not sure this point has any relevance.

 

[2105]

wow this thread is full of racism and bigotry. These are the questions we have faced our entire lives, are we good enough? Yet no one goes through life checking non minorities and questioning what types of dr. You will be every step of the way. If the adcom saw it fit that this person is a good fit for the school and to become a future psychian why are you questioning that? Do you go through all your other clasmates and dissect their home lives etc and say oh yea i knew somebody more poor than him probably shouldve gotten in.

And you do realize that being an urm is not just about your financial status. Its that you are truly underepresented. As in you didnt see doctors that looked like you often, if at all, because the numbers just don't support that you'd see that many. Which is why its still impressive you fought the grain and still went in search of medicine. Most of you posters non urm can flip through a random phone book put your finger down and more than likely that will be a white dr. More than likely male.

This is getting really old and really fast. Will my post probably change your ignorance. Probably not, but i am tired of sitting by and watching inappropriate comments get hurled around and condoned by others saying no we are mad at the system not the individual, thats a joke. The easiest way to spot a bigot is they usually start their comments i'm not trying to be offensive, but.... Followed by the slander. I am not worried about how you'll treat your urm colleagues, because by the time we get to that stage we have seen it and heard it all. Im concerned for your patients, you can't turn this type of mindset on and off. Good luck to you all and i hope you wake up

sent from my samsung-sgh-i747 using sdn mobile

+1

 

[yos]

Everyone has differing view on this topic.

All I know is if I ever make it onto an admissions committee. I'm going to push for the people who come from communities that are the most neglected health care wise. A Hispanic kid who grew up in a Mansion in Beverly Hills is going to get a fair appraisal but I'm not going to delude myself into thinking he will voluntarily go into primary care to help poor Hispanics or give an accurate impression to his classmates on how their Hispanic patients live.

Let's face it, schools do have unofficial quotas. As future possible admissions committee members, let's try not to fill the class with entirely people like us (even if you think just because they have a different skin color, they aren't like you).

A black primary case physician who practices in the inner city who got a 26 on the MCAT>>> A black plastic surgeon in Beverly Hills who got a 45. That is being true to the rationale behind affirmative action. Exposing those kids in the inner city to a black doctor as a role model while addressing the health care needs of their community.

Like I said, to each their own.

 

[touchpause13]

In my experience, racist bigots are usually very happy to broadcast their racism to people they think will be sympathetic. I think you are being dismissive.

I agree that a lot of the URM threads come off as very hostile, and it's gross as heck.

I'm white as hell and these threads come across super hostile 2 me

Sent from my SCH-I405 using SDN Mobile

 

[pp77]

There is an entire section of the application to talk about disadvantaged status. You're asking for data that doesn't exist. Will you find data on students from diverse backgrounds, language abilities, leadership experience, interviewing ability, communication skills, etc etc? These are all things that many medical schools clearly care about but you'll not see data on it.

Unless you're somehow trying to suggest that the state of the US healthcare system is somehow a result of mass physician incompetence.

Medical schools ask a lot of questions but I doubt they use all that information in a consistent way. I was hoping that some of this data actually does exist, but apparently it does not (this also strikes me as curious).

Re: physician incompetence, given that we spend so much and get so little (relative to other countries), I think it's a fair suggestion.

 

[Planes2Doc]

There are a few things about this issue that kind of blow my mind. First of all, I have nothing against any URM physicians. I think that anyone who desires to be a doctor, passes their classes, passes their boards, and effectively treats patients is a good doctor in my books.

I think that, given the uniqueness of medical school admissions and the goals of medical schools in general, there are challenges that are presented. I think that the URM system is broken, which is evident by URM populations still being underserved, despite years and years of medical schools graduating classes with URM physicians.

I think the source of the issue though starts out with things I saw in grade school. We used to have motivational speakers come in. Some of them were either African American or Hispanics that went from poverty to graduating from Ivy League institutions. There was a recurring theme here though: ESCAPE. None of these people went back to their communities. In fact, we all admired their escape from the communities. For a lot of URMs that come from dire circumstances, I'm certain that they would rather escape and never come back, which is the opposite of what medical schools want.

The other thing that blows my mind is how pre-meds view being pre-med as a meaningful journey, versus being a means to an end. Okay seriously, so if you spent all this time in college doing everything related to pre-med, but then never made it to medical schools after reapplying over multiple cycles, would you serious say: "Well, I'm so happy I did this because I had a meaningful journey." Oh please, this is absolutely ridiculous.

I find it very strange that there is so much focus on all the stuff that doesn't matter, versus caring about the end result. So here's where things get kind of weird. Apparently no one has any problems with any non-URM student picking up a laundry-list of activities that they don't give two ***** about and sure as hell would have never done in the first place ("ZERO to Mother Teresa" applicant). But if you have a URM that has no intentions of serving in the URM community but picks up activities to help their application, everyone cries foul! The URM is vilified.

So let me get this straight. It's perfectly fine for a non-URM to portray themselves as a bleeding heart applicant that desperately wants to help the poor in order to help their application, yet it's a crime against humanity if a URM picks up some activities in the community to help their application. We're all pre-meds, and we all have one ultimate goal, and that's to get into medical school. Why would anyone not do everything in their power to get in? URMs are just like us, they want to get into medical school too, whether they are impoverished from the South Side of Chicago, or a millionaire from Beverly Hills. I used to work with a "real" African-American, since he was born in Ghana and moved to the US. He used to be pre-med, and said he would pick up activities in the African American community because it would help his application. And for those of you that don't know, there is usually animosity between African immigrants and the African American population in the US.

Ultimately though, the question is whether they will serve in the URM community or not. Based on what I've seen in grade school, a lot of people that grew up in dire conditions will do anything they can to leave. Medical schools want the opposite, and I'm sure in some cases they get it. However, given the fact that URM communities are still underserved, it does show one thing. As bad as it sounds, a lot of these places are just not desirable to practice in. This is why so much incentive needs to be given to have people practice in underserved areas or become primary care physicians. People just won't go where things are less desirable in most cases. It's just the way it is.

And in the end, I have no right to judge any URMs for any reason. Anyone who gets into medical school and passes everything has the right to be there. Even if URMs gamed the system, we have absolutely NO RIGHT to criticize them. Because after all, we all game the system in one way or another, and we would be hypocrites to judge any URMs for doing the very same thing that we do. If everyone pursued only a genuine journey, then a whole lot of people would not get into medical school.

Clearly the issue is not black and white, no pun intended. At the end of the day, regardless of one's initial intentions, people will pass medical school, the boards, and become physicians. One's skin color, height, weight, gender, religion, or any other factor will have no bearing on this.

 

[Dbate]

Medical schools ask a lot of questions but I doubt they use all that information in a consistent way. I was hoping that some of this data actually does exist, but apparently it does not (this also strikes me as curious).

Re: physician incompetence, given that we spend so much and get so little (relative to other countries), I think it's a fair suggestion.

You don't find this curious at all. You just want to find statistics that reaffirm your racist viewpoint.


Yeah, there are no studies out there asking if blacks or hispanics are worse doctors. (surprise, surprise. )

There are a TON of studies asking if low stat doctors are bad doctors. (Any study looking at the correlation between usmle scores and clinical outcomes does exactly this.)

It took no time to find this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15682263
There is a low correlation. It is the same reason that DOs are just as good doctors as MDs.

Honestly, racists like you are the worse. If you are going to be racist, come out and be proud of it. Don't be a coward hiding behind faulty logic.

 

[La Presse]

Well...this thread really delivered.

 

[pp77]

You don't find this curious at all. You just want to find statistics that reaffirm your racist viewpoint.


Yeah, there are no studies out there asking if blacks or hispanics are worse doctors. (surprise, surprise. )

There are a TON of studies asking if low stat doctors are bad doctors. (Any study looking at the correlation between usmle scores and clinical outcomes does exactly this.)

It took no time to find this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15682263
There is a low correlation. It is the same reason that DOs are just as good doctors as MDs.

Honestly, racists like you are the worse. If you are going to be racist, come out and be proud of it. Don't be a coward hiding behind faulty logic.

Correlations between tests don't interest me, especially non-blind institution-specific "structured clinical tests" such as those in the study you linked. I'm more concerned with real-world outcomes as measured in morbidity and mortality, hence my second request. And you are begging the question ("It is the same reason that DOs are just as good doctors as MDs").

 

[PursuingHappy]

This thread is interesting. As an URM looking to go into medicine, I would like to see stats as well. I grew up living from shelter to shelter, sometimes sleeping on a mat in the floor. My mother was not able to work because she got cancer. But that never shook me. Just gave me a will to succeed. I started college early, have a 3.8 cGPA, but have not taken the MCAT.

Unfortunately, I was denied many scholarships to even get into college because I did not have lots of community service hours. I had the grades, but not the ECs or service. Of course, I was not able to do the same things that everyone did. My mother had my brother and sister while I was in middle school, so I have had to take care of them while she worked. These are the things that should be placed on an app, not just a score.

Being an doctor as an URM gives other minorities something to look up to. No one in my family is a doctor, but if I do get the chance to become one, then I would definitely go back and help the people that have been in my situation. Being homeless most likely means being without a job, which means probably no healthcare. If I become a doctor, I will be able to help someone get the best care, even if they have no insurance. I would like to believe that is why some ADCOMs choose to enroll URM, not just to meet some requirement. I hope they see the potential that we have, even if our GPAs and scores are not that great.

 

[PursuingHappy]

Ultimately though, the question is whether they will serve in the URM community or not. Based on what I've seen in grade school, a lot of people that grew up in dire conditions will do anything they can to leave. Medical schools want the opposite, and I'm sure in some cases they get it. However, given the fact that URM communities are still underserved, it does show one thing. As bad as it sounds, a lot of these places are just not desirable to practice in. This is why so much incentive needs to be given to have people practice in underserved areas or become primary care physicians. People just won't go where things are less desirable in most cases. It's just the way it is.

Agreed. Hope I am able to give back if I am lucky enough to be accepted into medical school and become a doctor.

 

[TheFamilyDoc]

You can pretty much come across an overrepresented minority/majority forum discussing we alien-like URMs everyday on SDN 43% of applicants get accepted to allopathic med schools each year which is nerve wrecking, so it's not that hard to understand why people continue to waste their time discussing URM's on the internet in order to somehow cope with their insecurities about their survival through the medical pipeline.

AA make up 12% of the U.S. and only 3% of U.S. Physicians. I guess a lot of the confusion comes from simply not knowing the information or the problem this disparity causes. There are not enough AA in the pipeline for medicine (K12-college) to begin with which is the reason why AA U.S. physicians make up have pretty remained unchanged for the past 30 years. As you would imagine this is created a problem, hence why med schools, the AAMC, and the AMA, etc continually push for awareness and enrollment of URMs. Many med schools have created special admissions pathways and preferences to AA who show promise, dedication, and most importantly ability, which is no secret. In saying this, the 'Affirmative Action & Making Up For Slavery" arguments are a result of a lack of knowledge and lack of not having any experience communication or interviewing with a ADCOMs. Many people have problems with this because the can't fully grasp why it is important to produce AA and other URM physicians so that they may someday practice in the areas similar to where they came from. More URM primary care physicians in particular in these areas his will help reduce chronic illnesses that URMs normally face years down the line such as hypertension and diabetes after not receiving adequate primary healthcare or even dental care in the earlier stages of life. That is just one example. The argument that AA physicians aren't doing this is insignificant because, stats and major medical organizations say otherwise. As a non URM it may be hard to grasp why this is important because understanding the disparities without being from these areas or witnessing the common (but deadly) preventable disease & illness is not expected.

Reading URM threads are always interesting because it's so easy to detect the malicious motives behind many of them. A lot of us simply dont post or respond to them, but yes we are reading. On a personal note, I could care less about what an insecure ORM may think of me because at the end of the day it is my career choice and my agenda on how I plan on impacting the field of medicine as a AA male physician. I recently interviewed at an Early Assurance Program at a top 50 med school and received a very warm welcome from the Dean of Admissions, Medical Students, Scientist & Clinicians alike and minorities that have gone through the program have not received any negative sentiments from ORM. In fact, they all work together and become some of the nations best physicians, completely prepared for PGY training. So, like I said alread a lot of these types of conversations stem from insure people who have failed at getting into med school and worried about their chances. Once you're in there, everyone is worried about becoming a great physician (and the ridiculously hard 'basic' science classes/labs 😱) rather than the brown guy's GPA and MCAT. I read a few replies up about another AA applicant who posted his 35 MCAT and 3.5 GPA. It's kinda ridiculous how many of us will have to stay proving ourselves. I too have a GPA > 3.5 😎

 

[Dires]

The whole premise of this thread is ridiculous. Anyone who completes their medical education, passes their boards, and completes their residency is well suited to be a physician.

Do you enjoy practicing medicine? Do you enjoy being around your patients? Can you look past many of the shortcomings of the US health care system? There are many more, but these questions are much more important regarding physician performance than whether they had low stats... Rofl.

 

[pp77]

The whole premise of this thread is ridiculous. Anyone who completes their medical education, passes their boards, and completes their residency is well suited to be a physician.

Given the relatively lousy performance of the American healthcare system, I'm skeptical of this.