Data on URM Physicians

[Dires]

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Given the relatively lousy performance of the American healthcare system, I'm skeptical of this.

And this is a reflection of physician performance?

That graph has nothing to do with this thread.

 

[touchpause13]

Well...this thread really delivered.

Hahaha I always depend on you to bring the lolz in these threads

Sent from my SCH-I405 using SDN Mobile

 

[Black Mamba24]

Given the relatively lousy performance of the American healthcare system, I'm skeptical of this.

And this is a reflection of physician performance?

That graph has nothing to do with this thread.

Agreed. The results in that graph could be the result of several things. Lifestyle (with diet as a crucial part) of the countries' citizens comes to mind as one of the most important factors.

 

[pp77]

And this is a reflection of physician performance?

As the goal of healthcare is the extension and improvement of life, and as physicians are at the top of healthcare's professional hierarchy, I don't really know what else it would be a reflection of. Americans spend a lot of money on healthcare in order to be unhealthy and live short lives (relatively speaking).

 

[pp77]

Agreed. The results in that graph could be the result of several things. Lifestyle (with diet as a crucial part) of the countries' citizens comes to mind as one of the most important factors.

Mexico has a higher obesity rate than the United States, as well as higher rates of violent crime and highway fatalities. It seems fair to say that the lifestyle of the average Mexican is substantially more dangerous than the lifestyle of the average American, but even assuming that they are equally risky, the average Mexican will live approximately 3 fewer years and save approximately $600,000 on medical treatment over the course of his life. Given that those 3 years may in large part be spent in hospitals, nursing homes etc, I think the average American family might sacrifice the 3 years for the lake house, college educations and annual European vacations that $600,000 could provide.

Some interesting discussion of U.S. healthcare here:

http://philip.greenspun.com/politics/health-care-reform

Another interesting statistic:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_o6vigEr23C4/SzlgW6YKBxI/AAAAAAAAAb8/20ZU0r0Zz2o/s1600-h/Picture+28.png

 

[Dbate]

As the goal of healthcare is the extension and improvement of life, and as physicians are at the top of healthcare's professional hierarchy, I don't really know what else it would be a reflection of. Americans spend a lot of money on healthcare in order to be unhealthy and live short lives (relatively speaking).

You clearly know nothing of the healthcare economics of this country or any other.

But, yeah. I bet it is the ~10% of minority physicians who are causing healthcare in America to be expensive.

This guy

 

[Dires]

As the goal of healthcare is the extension and improvement of life, and as physicians are at the top of healthcare's professional hierarchy, I don't really know what else it would be a reflection of. Americans spend a lot of money on healthcare in order to be unhealthy and live short lives (relatively speaking).

Wrong. It's a reflection of the shortcomings of our healthcare system. You're incorrectly extrapolating conclusions from this data.

 

[lobo.solo]

As the goal of healthcare is the extension and improvement of life, and as physicians are at the top of healthcare's professional hierarchy, I don't really know what else it would be a reflection of. Americans spend a lot of money on healthcare in order to be unhealthy and live short lives (relatively speaking).

Your conclusions are absurd.

 

[Ferneezy]

race trolls go hard in pre-allo

 

[NontradCA]

Given the relatively lousy performance of the American healthcare system, I'm skeptical of this.

Nothing to do with physician quality. Nice try though.

 

[as1212559]

I am white as the day is long and these threads are the most hostile and frustrating things on SDN.

brb suburban white kids
brb veiled racism

Everyone needs to GTFO OFF OF IT. Worry about your own ****ing life.

 

[pp77]

Your conclusions are absurd.

Could you explain how?

 

[pp77]

But, yeah. I bet it is the ~10% of minority physicians who are causing healthcare in America to be expensive.

Of course I did not say that and my actual point was that, contrary to popular wisdom, graduating from a U.S. medical school, passing all the licensing exams and completing a residency may not necessarily prove that one is a good practitioner of medicine.

 

[pp77]

Nothing to do with physician quality. Nice try though.

What about the tens of thousands of people killed every year by medical errors?

http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/101/3/e39.full

 

[NontradCA]

What about the tens of thousands of people killed every year by medical errors?

http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/101/3/e39.full

Incomplete comparison. How does this info pertain to your life expectancy graph and moreover to URMs? Troll harder.

 

[pp77]

Incomplete comparison. How does this info pertain to your life expectancy graph and moreover to URMs? Troll harder.

Medical errors would be expected to decrease life expectancy. I asked for data regarding URM physicians, I was told that anybody who gets through medical school and residency is a good physician; I question this assumption, an assumption which strikes me as very arrogant and plainly at odds with the facts. I wouldn't say that everybody who possesses a valid driver's license is necessarily a safe or competent driver, even though apparently fewer people die in highway accidents than from medical errors.

 

[Dires]

Of course I did not say that and my actual point was that, contrary to popular wisdom, graduating from a U.S. medical school, passing all the licensing exams and completing a residency may not necessarily prove that one is a good practitioner of medicine.

Do you even reading comprehension?

I stated graduating from a "U.S. medical school, passing all the licensing exams and completing a residency would result in an individual being well suited" or prepared to practice medicine. I never said that by completing these steps one would automatically be a good practitioner. My point was that there are a dozen other reasons why physicians in the US could (possibly) be giving sub par care. On top of all of this, I have seen no proof that they are.

Medical errors would be expected to decrease life expectancy. I asked for data regarding URM physicians, I was told that anybody who gets through medical school and residency is a good physician; I question this assumption, an assumption which strikes me as very arrogant and plainly at odds with the facts. I wouldn't say that everybody who possesses a valid driver's license is necessarily a safe or competent driver, even though apparently fewer people die in highway accidents than from medical errors.

You are impossible to reason with because you simply can not read. Keep this up and you will fail verbal miserably.

Also, what an unreasonable comparison between a medical and drivers license. Have you even considered the discrepancy in hours spent obtaining these two licenses?

Lastly, I'm not going to let you sidetrack this entire discussion from what I originally argued. This entire thread was poorly thought out. Even if there was a correlation between low stat medical students and poor physician performance, this wouldn't equate to there being a CAUSAL relationship. There could be a million other variables uncontrolled to explain this (see the questions I stated in my first post).

unrelatedgraph.jpg

 

[pp77]

Do you even reading comprehension?

I stated graduating from a "U.S. medical school, passing all the licensing exams and completing a residency would result in an individual being well suited" or prepared to practice medicine. I never said that by completing these steps one would automatically be a good practitioner. My point was that there are a dozen other reasons why physicians in the US could (possibly) be giving sub par care. On top of all of this, I have seen no proof that they are.



You are impossible to reason with because you simply can not read. Keep this up and you will fail verbal miserably.

Also, what an unreasonable comparison between a medical and drivers license. Have you even considered the discrepancy in hours spent obtaining these two licenses?

Lastly, I'm not going to let you sidetrack this entire discussion from what I originally argued. This entire thread was poorly thought out. Even if there was a correlation between low stat medical students and poor physician performance, this wouldn't equate to there being a CAUSAL relationship. There could be a million other variables uncontrolled to explain this (see the questions I stated in my first post).

unrelatedgraph.jpg

There could be a million other variables, but they are not all equally plausible. As for the ones you identified, I'm not sure they could be reasonably measured: how does one know that one enjoys practicing medicine without actually having practiced medicine? This seems like a catch-22. Is there a correlation between number of shadowing hours and physician competence?

I don't recognize a difference between being "well suited" to something and being "good" at it, nor is time spent obtaining a license proof of anything. Available statistics indicate that American medical care is, on average, unexceptional and unproductive. Given that physicians are at the top of the healthcare hierarchy and that they enjoy a relatively high degree of autonomy in the U.S. (by virtue of not being government employees), I can only assume they are either incompetent or crooks. Healthcare spending is going up at a completely unsustainable rate, so we need to figure out which it is and devise some possible solutions (modifying admissions policies might be necessary but it would obviously not be sufficient).

 

[NontradCA]

This variable is not plausible in the least to account for a decrease in life expectancy. Life expectancy correlates largely with vaccinations, antibiotics, clean water and dental care. Now run along now little fella.

 

[Dbate]

There could be a million other variables, but they are not all equally plausible. As for the ones you identified, I'm not sure they could be reasonably measured: how does one know that one enjoys practicing medicine without actually having practiced medicine? This seems like a catch-22. Is there a correlation between number of shadowing hours and physician competence?

I don't recognize a difference between being "well suited" to something and being "good" at it, nor is time spent obtaining a license proof of anything. Available statistics indicate that American medical care is, on average, unexceptional and unproductive. Given that physicians are at the top of the healthcare hierarchy and that they enjoy a relatively high degree of autonomy in the U.S. (by virtue of not being government employees), I can only assume they are either incompetent or crooks. Healthcare spending is going up at a completely unsustainable rate, so we need to figure out which it is and devise some possible solutions (modifying admissions policies might be necessary but it would obviously not be sufficient).

Even if having low stats causing one to commit more medical errors, you are ignoring the fact that there are far MORE Whites and Asians with low stats who are doctors than minorities.

You are just being a bigot. And quite frankly, a dumb one at that.

 

[pp77]

This variable is not plausible in the least to account for a decrease in life expectancy. Life expectancy correlates largely with vaccinations, antibiotics, clean water and dental care. Now run along now little fella.

So, in spite of their lifestyles being more dangerous in many respects and their country being relatively poor, the average Mexican has equal or superior access to vaccinations, antibiotics, clean water and dental care?

 

[pp77]

Even if having low stats causing one to commit more medical errors, you are ignoring the fact that there are far MORE Whites and Asians with low stats who are doctors than minorities.

You are just being a bigot. And quite frankly, a dumb one at that.

I've said in other threads (and I believe this one too) that the levels of nepotism, cronyism and general stupidity in medical school admissions are ridiculous and that simply eliminating affirmative action will do almost nothing to solve our problems.

 

[Arbor Vitae]

The multiple ongoing affirmative action debates on this board have piqued my interest in the status of URM physicians in this United States. Specifically, I am interested in two things:

1. How do URM students perform on the board exams? Looking for this information I could only find data for individual schools and an article from the National Review with no primary source.

2. Are URM physicians more likely to be subject to disciplinary action by state medical boards? I couldn't find any data on this at all.

If anybody has any links I would greatly appreciate it.

Did you not get in last cycle and now are searching for scapegoats?

 

[Dires]

There could be a million other variables, but they are not all equally plausible.

Why aren't they?

As for the ones you identified, I'm not sure they could be reasonably measured: how does one know that one enjoys practicing medicine without actually having practiced medicine? This seems like a catch-22. Is there a correlation between number of shadowing hours and physician competence?

We aren't talking about premeds. We are talking about PRACTICING PHYSICIANS. And yes you could measure just about every question I stated.

I don't recognize a difference between being "well suited" to something and being "good" at it, nor is time spent obtaining a license proof of anything

There is a huge difference. Well suited means being capable of completing the tasks. Enjoying rather than hating your job always leads to better outcomes in relation to performance. You can be the most capable doctor in the world, but if you hate your job and dislike taking care of patients you will not perform well.

So you think everyone and their brother/sister are capable of obtaining a medical license (like a driver's license)? What a joke.

Available statistics indicate that American medical care is, on average, unexceptional and unproductive.

False, available statistics indicate that the American healthcare system is overly expensive for those that have access to care. Additionally not enough Americans have access to care.

Given that physicians are at the top of the healthcare hierarchy and that they enjoy a relatively high degree of autonomy in the U.S. (by virtue of not being government employees), I can only assume they are either incompetent or crooks. Healthcare spending is going up at a completely unsustainable rate, so we need to figure out which it is and devise some possible solutions (modifying admissions policies might be necessary but it would obviously not be sufficient).

Do you know what percentage of your medical bill goes to the physician? Are you aware of the hospitals influence on rising healthcare costs?

 

[NontradCA]

So, in spite of their lifestyles being more dangerous in many respects and their country being relatively poor, the average Mexican has equal or superior access to vaccinations, antibiotics, clean water and dental care?

Yes. Take a look at your chart Timmy.

 

[Dbate]

I've said in other threads (and I believe this one too) that the levels of nepotism, cronyism and general stupidity in medical school admissions are ridiculous and that simply eliminating affirmative action will do almost nothing to solve our problems.

Then WHY did you start this thread?

 

[La Presse]

I've said in other threads (and I believe this one too) that the levels of nepotism, cronyism and general stupidity in medical school admissions are ridiculous and that simply eliminating affirmative action will do almost nothing to solve our problems.

wut.

This thread is difficult to follow

 

[mcloaf]

There could be a million other variables, but they are not all equally plausible. As for the ones you identified, I'm not sure they could be reasonably measured: how does one know that one enjoys practicing medicine without actually having practiced medicine? This seems like a catch-22. Is there a correlation between number of shadowing hours and physician competence?

I don't recognize a difference between being "well suited" to something and being "good" at it, nor is time spent obtaining a license proof of anything. Available statistics indicate that American medical care is, on average, unexceptional and unproductive. Given that physicians are at the top of the healthcare hierarchy and that they enjoy a relatively high degree of autonomy in the U.S. (by virtue of not being government employees), I can only assume they are either incompetent or crooks. Healthcare spending is going up at a completely unsustainable rate, so we need to figure out which it is and devise some possible solutions (modifying admissions policies might be necessary but it would obviously not be sufficient).

It's pretty amusing that you pretend to be super into hard data and yet don't have a basic understanding of where money goes in healthcare.

8.3/10. If you talk about getting your roommate arrested I'll reconsider.