dating a pgy1 as an MS3.

[RussianJoo]

I am an MS3 at a hospital and there's this cute pgy1 that just started. so far we're just friendly and chat all the time. I am sure she knows I like her because I usually help her out with her scut work or tag along with her during the day when I am not in the OR. I don't think other residents have noticed this or they just don't care because no one has commented on this, and I am sure if they would have noticed they would say something. I am thinking of asking her out to dinner, is that a good idea or a bad idea? I am older than her so age isn't an issue. What do you guys think of a pgy1 dating an ms3 at the same hospital? Is that against most hospital regulations? Do you think other residents would look unfavorably at either the pgy1 or the ms3?

your input is greatly appreciated.

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[Mental Gymnast]

"I am sure she knows I like her because I usually help her out with her scut work or tag along with her during the day when I am not in the OR."

Uhhh, you must be just starting third year. In case you haven't noticed yet, that is what you are SUPPOSED to do as a med student on surgery, follow the intern around like a puppy when not in the OR. You need some MAJOR perspective bro. I hope you don't think you're being recruited for residency when the attending lets you cut a suture in the OR.

 

[RussianJoo]

"I am sure she knows I like her because I usually help her out with her scut work or tag along with her during the day when I am not in the OR."

Uhhh, you must be just starting third year. In case you haven't noticed yet, that is what you are SUPPOSED to do as a med student on surgery, follow the intern around like a puppy when not in the OR. You need some MAJOR perspective bro. I hope you don't think you're being recruited for residency when the attending lets you cut a suture in the OR.

ok let me clear it up then. there are 4 pgy1's and only 2 students. and we pretty much get to pick who we want to fallow around, and I have been picking her, and we also talk on the phone or aim when we're not in the hospital.

my question is do you think this is appropriate behavior? will anyone care? if it's not I won't ask her out, there are plenty of fish in the sea.

 

[Law2Doc]

Is that against most hospital regulations?

The short answer is yes. Because relationships between supervisory (resident) positions and students can easily and quickly lead to harassment issues, every hospital will have a policy (explicit or implicit) on this. She can get in big trouble for this. Residents have input toward your grade and thus have a position of authority that might make you feel pressured, and this leads to sexual harassment lawsuits often enough to make a rule about it.

Not to mention, as the prior poster suggested, she may have no idea you are interested in her "that way" based on your willingness to do scut (all med students are supposed to do this) and may not feel comfortable getting hit on after just trying to be nice to the students. Your unwanted passes can lead to an uncomfortable work environment. Don't look at co-workers/bosses as potential dates. Thinks can, and do go wrong so often that there are always rules against this. It's something to learn as you enter into a work environment. This is not like college where everybody over 18 and not a first degree relative is fair game.

 

[Law2Doc]

my question is do you think this is appropriate behavior? will anyone care?

no and yes, respectively. Best to nip it in the bud, bud.

 

[Tiger26]

I'd be kinda pissed if I were the other student on your team--you shouldn't do anything until your rotation's over and there's no supervisor-supervisee relationship going on. After that, I'd say go for it.

 

[RussianJoo]

ok thanks for your input i'll do as suggested. don't want to jepordise my grade/career over some girl.

are nurses fair game?

 

[Law2Doc]

ok thanks for your input i'll do as suggested. don't want to jepordise my grade/career over some girl.

are nurses fair game?

Honestly, there's probably hospital policy against this too. While you aren't a boss of anyone as a med student, you do "work" with them and thus unwanted interest from you can create a harmful and offensive workplace for someone unreceptive to your advances. So yeah, any hospital handbook that was drawn up by a lawyer (and they pretty much all are, these days) is going to have a rule against such "fraternization" between doctors, nurses, and students. There's probably a whole city out there outside of the hospital walls that is fair game, though.

 

[elr1983]

A surgery intern dated a good friend of mine, an MS3, at my school. No one really cared, other than typical gossip, as far as I know. Our whole class and all the residents knew, not sure about attendings/hospital admin. It didn't create any problems for either of them, again, as far as I know (and I'm pretty sure my friend would have said if it had). Interns don't really evaluate students much at my school, though.

 

[MeowMix]

why date an intern, when you can find a nice normal person who has free time, is impressed that you're a med student, and doesn't spend their days around MRSA?

 

[Hassler]

why date an intern, when you can find a nice normal person who has free time, is impressed that you're a med student, and doesn't spend their days around MRSA?

Because you're pretty much in the hospital all day and when you get home, you're dead tired and still need to study? How do you even have time to find anybody else to date?

Are we all supposed to be married before starting medical school? If we're not, are we pretty much screwed for life?

 

[Ypo.]

ok thanks for your input i'll do as suggested. don't want to jepordise my grade/career over some girl.

are nurses fair game?

Oh, sheesh. In your case I'm going to say "no."

 

[45408]

There's probably a whole city out there outside of the hospital walls that is fair game, though.

Like he has time to leave the hospital and look for a date.

 

[RussianJoo]

A surgery intern dated a good friend of mine, an MS3, at my school. No one really cared, other than typical gossip, as far as I know. Our whole class and all the residents knew, not sure about attendings/hospital admin. It didn't create any problems for either of them, again, as far as I know (and I'm pretty sure my friend would have said if it had). Interns don't really evaluate students much at my school, though.

yeah i kind of agree with you. in my school interns have no input in our grades at all. none of the residents do, well maybe the chief.

 

[Ypo.]

Dang it. At my school the interns can definitely evaluate you.

My surgery rotation was 2 months of hell...surrounded by 20 residents for 100 hours a week, all of them constantly watching me for some weakness they could slam me on.

In general I've found that residents are much pickier on evals than attendings.

 

[hippocampus]

if u want all the residents to talk cr*p about u after u guys break up, then go for it

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

Because you're pretty much in the hospital all day and when you get home, you're dead tired and still need to study? How do you even have time to find anybody else to date?

Are we all supposed to be married before starting medical school? If we're not, are we pretty much screwed for life?

If Law2Doc had it his way, then yes, you are screwed for life

Honestly though, I wouldn't date an intern 'till after the service was over.

 

[RussianJoo]

Dang it. At my school the interns can definitely evaluate you.

My surgery rotation was 2 months of hell...surrounded by 20 residents for 100 hours a week, all of them constantly watching me for some weakness they could slam me on.

In general I've found that residents are much pickier on evals than attendings.

that really sucks for you.. at my hospital the interns don't pimp us at all, scut us very little, we round at 6am and then the students go the OR, where we scrub into cases all day, and hardly get pimped by the attendings, maybe one question per case. and once that attending is done for the depending on the time we help out the residents with daily work or just show up to sign out and go home. we're at the hospital 5am till 6 or 7pm 5 days a week so that's about 60 hours at most we have 6 24 hour calls during the entire rotation and our grade mostly depends on the one case presentation that we have to do, the oral and written exam. it's a very stress free environment and i think that's the best conditions to learn under.

 

[QofQuimica]

At a minimum, wait until you're done with that rotation and all the evals are in before you ask her out. Even if she's not grading you herself, she's going to be giving input to the residents and attendings who are grading you. In the meantime, you might want to find out more about her and make sure that she doesn't already have a boyfriend (or a girlfriend!) before you potentially embarrass yourself.

 

[njbmd]

I am an MS3 at a hospital and there's this cute pgy1 that just started. so far we're just friendly and chat all the time. I am sure she knows I like her because I usually help her out with her scut work or tag along with her during the day when I am not in the OR. I don't think other residents have noticed this or they just don't care because no one has commented on this, and I am sure if they would have noticed they would say something. I am thinking of asking her out to dinner, is that a good idea or a bad idea? I am older than her so age isn't an issue. What do you guys think of a pgy1 dating an ms3 at the same hospital? Is that against most hospital regulations? Do you think other residents would look unfavorably at either the pgy1 or the ms3?

your input is greatly appreciated.

Remember that "birds do not defecate in their own nests". If you have any chance of doing any rotations in that hospital again, make any staff (resident or otherwise) off limits for romantic involvements. Keep your social life and your business life very, very separate. Hospitals, even the large ones, are "fishbowls" and you don't want to risk your potential career on "a date". Find another source for meeting potential dates that isn't related to where you work or that doesn't involve illegal activity.

Quash the "chatting" and be as business-like but as cordial as you can. Once your reputation goes, you can't get it back. I fondly remember an excellent anesthesia professor who was credited with spreading gardenerella among the nursing staff in the Intensive care unit where he worked. This was not a good situation for someone in his position. Don't go there.

 

[Law2Doc]

If Law2Doc had it his way, then yes, you are screwed for life

Nah -- he'll get to that point if he doesn't heed my advice.

 

[Blade28]

At a minimum, wait until you're done with that rotation and all the evals are in before you ask her out. Even if she's not grading you herself, she's going to be giving input to the residents and attendings who are grading you. In the meantime, you might want to find out more about her and make sure that she doesn't already have a boyfriend (or a girlfriend!) before you potentially embarrass yourself.

Good advice.

I reiterate the advice that you should be very, very careful about this. Hospital grapevines are notorious for their fast-spreading gossip - trust me, EVERYONE will know about this if things progress...and even more so if things end badly.

 

[Ypo.]

Quash the "chatting" and be as business-like but as cordial as you can. Once your reputation goes, you can't get it back. I fondly remember an excellent anesthesia professor who was credited with spreading gardenerella among the nursing staff in the Intensive care unit where he worked. This was not a good situation for someone in his position. Don't go there.

Has it ever been proven that BV is a sexually transmitted disease? I didn't think it was.

 

[Doodledog]

Finding a random person to date within your friends and coworkers is likely to lead to gossip. This is true if you pick someone at the hospital or at Church/Synagogue, your friend's sister or someone who lives in the apartment next door. So what? However if you avoid asking out people whom you are evaluating or who are evaluating you and of course, as with everywhere in life, avoid anything resembling harassment in how you approach them, is unlikely to lead to any real career problems.

However, what I wanted to add is that I believe that finding someone you really want to spend your life with is a true challenge not made any easier by the medical training process. Omitting the people whom you work around as potential friends and then life partners (with the caveats above and elsewhere in this thread) is to omit a lot of people whom you get to know well. These people will know who you are and what you are like - not something it's easy to do these days despite online dating services. If natural friendship leads to a meaningful relationship, not pursuing it may be to miss a life partner.

So, a bit of gossip, which will pass (assuming you don't give them an STD....) seems like an okay trade off given common sense, etc.

Different opinions for you!

 

[Law2Doc]

So, a bit of gossip, which will pass (assuming you don't give them an STD....) seems like an okay trade off given common sense, etc.

The dude asked if there were rules against inter-hospital fraternization. In virtually every hospital handbook (which are written by lawyers not cupids) the answer is going to be "yes" there are. So if you want to follow the rules, you will set your sights outside of the hospital walls. The issue is never just about "gossip" or "common sense", it's that these rules exist because of potentially significant legal ramifications when things don't work out, when people start feeling uncomfortable at work, and most importantly when the hospital as employer gets exposed to potential employee-related discrimination. Some would argue that "common sense" is the first thing to go by the wayside when a relationship blows up, or when a harassing personality sets his/her sights on someone. We live in a world where folks can and do sue their employer if they consider their workplace hostile and uncomfortable due to inappropriate comments and unsolicited interest of co-workers. We live in a world where sexual harassment suits abound, and co-workers of the opposite sex don't seem to know how not to act inappropriately toward one another. We live in a world where someone who has a casual relationship with a superior can turn around and sue the hospital when later fired or not promoted. So yeah, to avoid all this, the hospital is going to have been advised to make rules against this, and enforce those rules if they get wind of violations. And so yeah, this can jeopardize a young person's career. Is it unfair or unrealistic to eliminate your co-workers as potential dates? Perhaps. Is it the general rule? Yep.

 

[SexySurgeon]

When is your rotation over? I hope it's soon, so yeah after that you can totally ask her out then.

And by the way...why is she chatting with you on AIM anyway? That's unprofessional. You bad boy! ;-)

 

[Haemulon]

Try a cold shower instead. Definitely the safer way to go.

 

[Doodledog]

The dude asked if there were rules against inter-hospital fraternization. In virtually every hospital handbook (which are written by lawyers not cupids) the answer is going to be "yes" there are. So if you want to follow the rules, you will set your sights outside of the hospital walls. We live in a world where sexual harassment suits abound, and co-workers of the opposite sex don't seem to know how not to act inappropriately toward one another....We live in a world where someone who has a casual relationship with a superior can turn around and sue the hospital when later fired or not promoted. So yeah, to avoid all this, the hospital is going to have been advised to make rules against this, and enforce those rules if they get wind of violations. .

I assume you mean intra-hospital? If this exists in virtually every hospital handbook, can you provide me a link to hospital handbooks (one or more) that says this or otherwise quote what they say verbatim that specifically forbids dating a fellow hospital employee (and doctor working at a hospital dating a hospital employee/docs or other doc who works there)? I've worked in more than a few hospitals and routinely am required to take both in person and on-line sessions related to sexual harassment and the like - these are required for all medical staff. In no case was I ever told that a consensual relationship between two hospital employees/docs (avoiding the situation of supervisory status) is against the rules. In my experience, there are a huge number of such relationships that spring up regularly (including nurses dating hospital administrators) and I've never heard of anyone being asked or told to stop or that it violated hospital policy.

So, can you provide the language for us to look at from hospital handbooks? That would be very interesting to read. If it exists in those terms, then I need to start warning a lot of people to stop their behavior. But, I'd be glad to do so. I'll even go on-line to some of "my" hospital handbooks and see what I can find....

I agree by the way that there is always a risk of things going bad and someone filing a harassment claim, but I don't agree that, without specific rules prohibiting all intra-hospital dating, this is not worth the risk for the right person. But, I'm a romantic at heart!

An old but interesting article I found on the general topic. Makes some good points about what can and can't be enforced in the workplace.

http://austin.bizjournals.com/austin/stories/2004/02/23/focus5.html

 

[QofQuimica]

I'll state for the record that I was completely passed over when the genes for romanticness were handed out, but I still agree with Tildy. There is a big difference between the ethics of a relationship between a supervisor/supervisee (as in the OP's case) versus a relationship between two "equals" who do not have such a relationship. Whether someone would want to risk being the topic of gossip in the hospital is a different question than whether it is ethical to date someone who supervises you (or whom you supervise). It may be foolhardy to take the risk of dating in the hospital (and it's definitely not a risk that I'd be willing to take), but it is not unethical to be fodder for the gossip mill. I see it as being akin to when students in your med school class date. Is dating someone in your class stupid and risky? Hell yeah. But unethical? You gotta be kidding me.

 

[DrDre311]

OP, once your rotation's over: go for it homeboy...you'll never know til you try. F*** the naysayers cause they don't mean a thing.

 

[deleted29780]

please delete those thoughts about her this very instant. If you search hard within yourself, you may come to the conclusion that you are not really interested in her. Looking at the number of hours you have to put into your surgery rotation, i suggest you learn. Learn, learn, learn till you drop dead.

 

[RussianJoo]

my rotation ends late Aug. I'll just chat and be friendly with her till then I guess.

thank you for your advice everyone.

 

[Law2Doc]

I assume you mean intra-hospital? If this exists in virtually every hospital handbook, can you provide me a link to hospital handbooks (one or more) that says this or otherwise quote what they say verbatim that specifically forbids dating a fellow hospital employee (and doctor working at a hospital dating a hospital employee/docs or other doc who works there)?

Um, you don't usually put this kind of document on the web (it's an invitation to lawsuit because if the world knows your internal policies it can hold your feet to the fire everytime you deviate from them, even if you are staying within the law), so no, you won't find a link. But if you go into your hospital's employment office and ask to see a copy, I'm sure you will find it. I've worked at firms that have consulted on putting these handbooks together and it's a very standard boilerplate provision stuck within the conduct sections. I'll do a search later and see if any hospital inadvertently put their handbook on the web I can quote for you, but I kind of doubt I'll find one.

 

[SexySurgeon]

If I was at your hospital, RussianJoo...you would have been dating me

 

[MSKalltheway]

I am the product of such a relationship, so there is no way I'm gonna say dont do it. Have at it if you want, but just do it when there is no way she'll grade you again.

Besides if she's hot and actually into you, you'd be dumb to turn it down!

 

[Hurricane95]

Wait until you're no longer on the same rotation/service, then hit that. Seriously, TONS of people will tell you not to do it, but that goes for lots of things in life. I know several couples that started this way and worked out just fine. Im sure there are just as many or more that didn't work, but whatever. As long as you're not on the same service, it would be less awkward should it not work.

 

[DonHovaMD]

Game recognize Game.!!!Go for it!!! I am in the same position. I have been dating a PG1 at my school since January. I will be doing a rotations in her service in a couple of months and I am a little worried about how that is going to work out once I am in her service. I am a little concerned how other residents would act towards me...specially the ones that kicked it to her and she turned away....but let them HATE!!!If is against policy...keep it on the DL...it gives a little spice to the relationship. If it works out...great...if it doesn't.get as many books as you can for your third and fourth year rotations and have fun on your overnight calls days while rememebering to always put patient care first.

 

[Samoa]

You might think about disclosing your relationship to the clerkship director. As unethical as some may think it is to date a superior, failing to disclose the situation when it could have been worked around is a definite ethical failure.

Edit: this is in response to the post immediately above, not the OP.

 

[thedrjojo]

I'm an MSIII married to an MSII at the same school... but we were married before she started, so they can't do anything about that... there is also an MSIV married to a PGY4 right now, but again, they got married before she started... I'm sure the MS IV and PGY 4 were open about it and never got in a position where he directly supervised or influenced her grade in any way, and I think that as long as you are not on the same service, or working directly with her, issues of conflict won't be a problem... just make sure if you do an AI in surgery next year and you happen to actually be with her, then you make sure not to try to pull a favor or stuff like that, or you could face big problems (like you and her getting kicked out)... the issue might also be that if residents evaluate you, they might hold your relationship against you and give you bad marks or pimp you out(obviously it won't be stated for that reason, but they might say you weren't a good student because of the jealousy... **** like that happens, just like if you make them look bad infront of an attending they will hold a grudge) so be careful with what you do.

 

[Dedikated2liftn]

I am an MS3 at a hospital and there's this cute pgy1 that just started. so far we're just friendly and chat all the time. I am sure she knows I like her because I usually help her out with her scut work or tag along with her during the day when I am not in the OR. I don't think other residents have noticed this or they just don't care because no one has commented on this, and I am sure if they would have noticed they would say something. I am thinking of asking her out to dinner, is that a good idea or a bad idea? I am older than her so age isn't an issue. What do you guys think of a pgy1 dating an ms3 at the same hospital? Is that against most hospital regulations? Do you think other residents would look unfavorably at either the pgy1 or the ms3?

your input is greatly appreciated.

Bro, you gotta raw dog her in the broom closet and then blackmail the **** out of her for honors.

 

[EM_Rebuilder]

I am an MS3 at a hospital and there's this cute pgy1 that just started. so far we're just friendly and chat all the time. I am sure she knows I like her because I usually help her out with her scut work or tag along with her during the day when I am not in the OR. I don't think other residents have noticed this or they just don't care because no one has commented on this, and I am sure if they would have noticed they would say something. I am thinking of asking her out to dinner, is that a good idea or a bad idea? I am older than her so age isn't an issue. What do you guys think of a pgy1 dating an ms3 at the same hospital? Is that against most hospital regulations? Do you think other residents would look unfavorably at either the pgy1 or the ms3?

your input is greatly appreciated.

From your standpoint, probably not an issue. From her standpoint, BIG issue. A resident really should not be 'hitting on' a student..much less repricussions (I cant even spell that word) of a student hitting on a resident aside from getting labeled as 'that guy'. Now, I as much as anyone, believe that perhaps this just happens to be the way your 'meet' your soulmate.
In that case, keep chatting on AIM or whatever, get over this clerkship and if something is meant to be later, then so be it. Be mature about any possible relationship and dont just do it for the meat... substance or dont even try. And patients are ALWAYS off limits, I dont care if they are the soulmate...


Another thing to be weary of.. if she is a new intern in a new place...maybe you just happen to be the first nice and decent person she has met and established communications with. Her life is new and stressfull and you are there to chat with....she may, and most likely, has no desire to go beyond that.

 

[krust3]

ok thanks for your input i'll do as suggested. don't want to jepordise my grade/career over some girl.

are nurses fair game?

i can't resist... how bout trying do well on your rotation and not make your fellow caribbean students look like arse holes. try to keep it in ur pants before you ruin everything for those who actually "got game"

 

[Law2Doc]

i can't resist... how bout trying do well on your rotation and not make your fellow caribbean students look like arse holes. try to keep it in ur pants before you ruin everything for those who actually "got game"

I would tend to agree. Coming from SGU you already need to be more impressive in rotations than your US peers to get a shot at the opportunities you seek. That means focusing in all your time and efforts on doing well in rotations. Creating drama in the hospital is the last thing you want to do, whether it's a harassment concern for the hospital lawyers or not. I would keep your social life and the hospital life totally separate. You need to be nothing but the best you can be every time you set foot in the hospital, and exclusively focused on that goal while on the hospital grounds. Because the match system is stacked against offshore grads, and so you have to really be stellar. Don't undermine it with silliness.

 

[roja]

1. Q gives great advice. At a minimum, wait until the rotation is over AND you have your evals in. And do NOT 'court' her during your rotation. This will be picked up on.

2. If you decide to try and date afterward, do it with eyes open and realize that people will talk, and that if things turn bad you could make the next year of your life pretty miserable. It could also work out but you should think about the risks and benefits.

3. These types of relationships do work, but they tend to be among mature individuals who understand discretion. Depending on your school, you could potentially damage your career.

 

[Rendar5]

shrug, if you like her ask her out. I did once. Waited until end of rotation and asked. You could also ask maybe 2/3 into the rotation if you can deal with potential awkwardness and it won't affect ur eval much. Just be discrete and don't get all neurotic about it.

EDIT: My advice doesn't hold if you're going to see her on multiple rotations over the next 2 years.

 

[LUBDUBB]

If i'm currently dating a resident, should I break up with her before I start my rotation, and then get back together after the rotation?

 

[Rendar5]

If i'm currently dating a resident, should I break up with her before I start my rotation, and then get back together after the rotation?

Oh yeah, that'll go over nicely...

 

[roadrunnerrita]

In my hospital, the interns don't evaluate the med students. You are too close in training, too close in age (or older than them), so it doesn't make any sense to have them evaluate you directly.

I don't see much of a problem dating her if you want, but I would a) wait to start until your rotation is over and b) keep yourself professional during the rotation and while you are at the hospital.

 

[NeurosurgeryGal]

The last day of rotations, ask her "Wanna go celebrate ending this rotation together?"

Then find some way to get her to your house somehow. Offering to cook her dinner helps. Assuming you actually know how to cook, of course.

 

[michaelrack]

I am an MS3 at a hospital and there's this cute pgy1 that just started. so far we're just friendly and chat all the time. I am sure she knows I like her because I usually help her out with her scut work or tag along with her during the day

That's how I met my wife; I was an MS3 at the time and she was a medicine intern. I waited until after the rotation to ask her out. If you wait until after the rotation to date her, you shouldn't have any problems, as long as you two don't break up. It's after the breakup that work relationships tend to cause problems.