DBS surgery

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MilesDavisTheDoctor

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I've heard recently that neurologists along with neurosurgeons and Interventional radiologists can actually do a lot of procedures through a NIR fellowship. I was wondering whether there has been any talk about neurologists being able to do DBS procedures in the future, which so far has been entirely in the domain of neurosurgeons to my knowledge. Are there any neurologists who do DBS procedures like neurosurgeons and in my ignorance is there any reason to think that they won't in the future be able to given that there are already many doing NIR?

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is anyone doing dbs endovascularly?
This should answer your question.
 
is anyone doing dbs endovascularly?
This should answer your question.

That is a good point but I was thinking that in the future there could just be a fellowship like NIR but for functional neurosurgery procedures like DBS for neurologists.
 
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That is a good point but I was thinking that in the future there could just be a fellowship like NIR but for functional neurosurgery procedures like DBS for neurologists.
do you think that it is a good idea to let a person with no surgical training perform a crani, insert an electrode into the brain ?

If anything its more likely that Neurosurgery will absorb most of the NIR programs in the next 30 years.
 
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I think the Neuro-IR programs will stick around for a little while, at least, because there is a lot more volume than there was even a few years ago. The looming problem for that field is that embolectomy is much more common than aneurysms, AVMs, etc. Having enough neuroendovascular folks to handle the stroke cases dilutes the other cases significantly.

With respect to DBS, if you want to do it, apply for neurosurgery residencies. Sticking things into the brain will remain squarely neurosurgical for the foreseeable future.
 
A little off the main topic but how feasible is it right now to build your career doing DBS as a neurosurgeon? Say that's the thing you like the most about the field and want to mainly only do those surgeries in your practice, is that an achievable thing for most people who want to do it to do? I'm honestly not even sure there are enough DBS cases out there to do be done to have a practice where that's mainly what you do.
 
A little off the main topic but how feasible is it right now to build your career doing DBS as a neurosurgeon? Say that's the thing you like the most about the field and want to mainly only do those surgeries in your practice, is that an achievable thing for most people who want to do it to do? I'm honestly not even sure there are enough DBS cases out there to do be done to have a practice where that's mainly what you do.
There are academic neurosurgeon s who do just functions with a little spine. I don’t know if they are taking pay cuts but it’s all they do. So it is possible. I don’t know how feasible it is though in every market.
 
I wonder if that sort of situation is only possible in academics. I haven't heard of a lot of PP guys who do a lot of functional.
 
I wonder if that sort of situation is only possible in academics. I haven't heard of a lot of PP guys who do a lot of functional.
if you are willing to take a paycut anything is possible.
 
I wonder if that sort of situation is only possible in academics. I haven't heard of a lot of PP guys who do a lot of functional.

It depends on the area. There are plenty of major, and minor metro areas without academic departments.
 
My understanding is that battery changes are pretty well reimbursed for the 20 minutes it takes to do them. In that context I haven't heard of functional foll being particularly poorly paid.
 
No neurologist is doing DBS without a neurosurgeon, there are neurologists who specialize in movement disorders and assist in patient selection, and in the OR, when leads are placed.

Neuro-IR has there hands in another field that is also in the realm of neurosurgery, focused ultrasound. Look into it.
 
do you think that it is a good idea to let a person with no surgical training perform a crani, insert an electrode into the brain ?

If anything its more likely that Neurosurgery will absorb most of the NIR programs in the next 30 years.
Do you think it is a good idea to let a person with no radiology or IR training perform a femoral access, use an angiographer (giving a significant amount or radiation) and navigate catheters into the brain?

The answer of NSG was: we are experts of aneurysms, the technique can be easily learned.

So why can't a neurologist (expert of Parkinson's disease) learn how to make a small burr hole? (Please don't tell me it's more difficult than a stent assisted coiling...)

Answer: because NSG do not want intrusions into their own realm (even though they vastly invade NeuroIR and Rad-Onc), and possibly because neurologists are not interested in it.
 
Do you think it is a good idea to let a person with no radiology or IR training perform a femoral access, use an angiographer (giving a significant amount or radiation) and navigate catheters into the brain?

The answer of NSG was: we are experts of aneurysms, the technique can be easily learned.

So why can't a neurologist (expert of Parkinson's disease) learn how to make a small burr hole? (Please don't tell me it's more difficult than a stent assisted coiling...)

Answer: because NSG do not want intrusions into their own realm (even though they vastly invade NeuroIR and Rad-Onc), and possibly because neurologists are not interested in it.
Do you think other specialties will eventually do DBS?
 
Do you think it is a good idea to let a person with no radiology or IR training perform a femoral access, use an angiographer (giving a significant amount or radiation) and navigate catheters into the brain?

The answer of NSG was: we are experts of aneurysms, the technique can be easily learned.

So why can't a neurologist (expert of Parkinson's disease) learn how to make a small burr hole? (Please don't tell me it's more difficult than a stent assisted coiling...)

Answer: because NSG do not want intrusions into their own realm (even though they vastly invade NeuroIR and Rad-Onc), and possibly because neurologists are not interested in it.
Don't most interventional neuroradiologists also have no IR training beyond whatever they rotate on in DR residency? I do agree that it's preposterous that endovascular neurosurgeons formally read the angios for their cases the same way a fellowship-trained neuroradiologist would.

Neurologists are experts in the clinical entity of Parkinson's disease, not the basal ganglia, so I think it's an inadequate comparison to managing aneurysms and AVMs. And like you said, I'm not sure how interested they would be as a field. I've never met a neurologist who was even really keen to observe in the OR (aside from awake cases/DBS), let alone eager to buzz the dura.

Do you think other specialties will eventually do DBS?
No. But maybe. Who knows.
 
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Yeah, absolutely not. It's not just "a burr hole" and then stick the metal pointy thing in the brain. It is an actual surgery and there are so many things that can go wrong if not performed by someone with actual surgical training.

First, the trajectory itself: you have to know how to use the stereotactic frame in conjunction with the guidance software and appropriately identify your targets, calculate your trajectories, and then match that up with the computer generated ones. You have to choose the appropriate entry site and make sure you're not going to hit anything important. You need to know where you are in relation to motor strip, sensory cortex, the sinuses, and use pre-op imaging to identify any cortical vessels so you can ensure you aren't going to snag one on your way down. Could this part be theoretically done by someone without surgical training? Sure. But as so much of neurosurgery deals with the method of approach, neurosurgeons are best equipped to make these decisions.

Second, complications that may arise during the surgery itself. What if you clip a vessel and have an ICH? Who is going to throw the EVD in or (god forbid) convert to an open crani and know how to manage that in the immediate setting? What if you have a lot of scalp bleeding during your initial incision? You need someone who's facile with a bipolar so that they can achieve hemostasis without destroying viable skin and making the wound close improperly (which is a HUGE deal for implantation surgeries as I'll detail below). What about when you're tunneling the extension wires from the head to the chest? A neurosurgeon will have done this countless times for things like shunt tubing. They'll know to go underneath the galea to prevent erosion and they'll be able to actually identify the galea because they identify (and suture) it in pretty much any of their major cranial procedures. What about if you snag the EJ? A surgeon will know how to identify the abnormal blood and do what is necessary to achieve hemostasis. Closing incisions is also super important for implantation procedures. Is the neurologist going to be able to appropriately place the correct type of sutures in the correct layers to ensure a hemotoma doesn't form, the fascial seal is water-tight, and the skin is appropriately closed so that there isn't an infection (which is one of the worst things that can happen to these patients)? For the surgeon, this becomes second nature and is standard operating (hah) procedure. For the neurologist who has maybe placed a few a-lines during their intern MICU rotation, this is NOT going to be intuitive or easy to master.

And I think most importantly, who is going to manage these patients when they show up in the ED with problems? Infections, exposed hardware, wound dehiscence, all of these are surgical problems and are best managed by surgeons. If you put something into someone, you should be able to manage the complications of that device. One of my least favorite things is when pain management puts a spinal cord stimulator into someone and then declines to deal with it when the patient presents to the ED 3 months later with it dislodged or infected and then neurosurgery gets to take it out and manage the infection and subsequent damage.

My point is that these are not simple things and can't just be thought about in the immediate operative period. There are long term consequences in addition to immediate considerations that require a surgeon to be able to appropriately manage.
 
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Do you think it is a good idea to let a person with no radiology or IR training perform a femoral access, use an angiographer (giving a significant amount or radiation) and navigate catheters into the brain?

The answer of NSG was: we are experts of aneurysms, the technique can be easily learned.

So why can't a neurologist (expert of Parkinson's disease) learn how to make a small burr hole? (Please don't tell me it's more difficult than a stent assisted coiling...)

Answer: because NSG do not want intrusions into their own realm (even though they vastly invade NeuroIR and Rad-Onc), and possibly because neurologists are not interested in it.
The answer to the question does radiology get the opportunity to perform neuro angiography is absolutely yes! I hope to have 100 dx cerebral angios, 50 thrombectomies, and untold number of carotid stents and aneurysm coils by the time I graduate my residency. I believe now Neurosurgeons have cerebral angios built into there training. Some of the best neurointerventionalist I have meet are neurosurgeons and I think they have every right to compete in this space. The question of if radiology belongs in this field is in my opinion undeniable we pioneered the field more then any other specialty. Neurologist in my opinion until relatively recent where not in this space because they in general did no procedures and the vast majority of there training is Still no procedures so don’t think they should be in this space but like it or not there coming. In general most neurosurgeons are respectful towards radiologist pursuit to this field and they recognize there contribution, much more friendly then relationships between IR and Vascular Surgery, where the majority of Vascular Surgeons honestly feel that IR should not be performing endovascular PAD procedures to which my reply is then mabe you should start inventing your own endovascular procedures. Or how about this you can’t perform a single procedure invented by IR.
 
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