Dead Horses...

[WildlifeSaver]

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well, were still stuck at "What kind of contaminant can result in synchronized deaths of so many animals without (much) clinically observable symptoms?"

The longer it takes a toxin to kill an animal, the greater the distribution of time to death (for the most part), due to differences in metabolism. I'm speaking strictly hypothetical here, but are there any toxins that take, say 1+ week to kill, but then kill all animals on same day?

So my thoughts are something extremely potent (perhaps in the biotyl).. which still screams intentional or gross negligence on someones part.

Or... even more sexy.

Perhaps an external trigger that lead to the metabolism of something in the biotyl to create a secondary metabolite that was the toxin.

Don't know anything about horses, and never took Tox, so I am speculating 100% here.

😍 that line

 

[Pomegranate]

I heard that the supplement had selenium in it and that it was possible that the horses died of selenium poisoning

 

[Bill59]

One of the ingredients listed for the supplement is potassium aspartate. This would be high on my list of causes since potassium can stop the heart.

Death from potassium overdose is usually very quick and caused by arrhythmias. Also it takes a buttload of K+ to kill a horse.

It also contains selenium and a selenium overdose would fit better I think. More likely though would be the product was contaminated by something else.

Sounds like they need to get their hands on this stuff and see what's really in it.

 

[ImaJerseyGirl]

I was reading about this in the news paper this AM, also saw it on thehorse.com yesterday. In the paper, it said the first load of horses got to the grounds and were unloaded, they noticed them "not well" and ataxic. A few horses went down then. A second truck came with 5-6 (don't remember) horses, didn't unload, then returned back to the barn. One of the horses from the second truck died later.
I didn't know about the supplement injections until reading here. If they gave a high enough dose of the Se supplement that morning, then the stress of trailering... could that have caused it? I thought Se toxicity took alot longer to develop (you'd see poor hooves, skimpy tail etc).
It seems that more horses on the first truck were affected.

Still scary.

 

[Pomona2006]

This just showed up on CNN.com today...

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/04/23/polo.pony.deaths/index.html

 

[LVT2DVM]

OMG...That is just horrible. And the end of someones career as a pharmacist I would presume. Id be curious to know what the actual agent of the overdose was. Guess they wont release that information until the investigation/ court case?? is over. Anyone else wondering if it could have been malicious intent... I sure hope not. My heart goes out to the owners. Man, dead over a stupid vitamin supplement, how aweful.

 

[GeeQued]

It just shows you how someone's carelessness (either in the lab or following the vets orders) can cause such a horrible reaction. At least its not a tainted batch and isolate only to this case. I do give the company props for coming out and taking the responsibility even before the investigation even headed towards them.

 

[tpad40]

So sad 🙁 What a terrible situation, but it was good of the company to come forward quickly. Poor polo ponies! I am also curious what exactly the mistake was, but I am sure the whole story will leak soon enough!

 

[StillDreaming]

This doesn't surprise me... I have never really liked Francks Pharmacy, i'm not a fan of their practices... it sucks that so many horses had to die because of their mistakes.

awful

 

[Poochlover11]

I wonder why five of the horses didn't get the vitamin? What exactly was this vitamin suppose to do-does anyone know?

 

[GeeQued]

I wonder why five of the horses didn't get the vitamin? What exactly was this vitamin suppose to do-does anyone know?

Its meant to help recover from exhaustion, B12 is depleted quickly and signs of it are fatigue, muscle soreness, etc so giving a B vit (I thought I read that was the main ingredient but I could be wrong) would help offset that. Just like I take B12 before/after I go out drinking and to this day have never hadd a hang over since alcohol depletes B12 and hang over signs are identical (minus puking) to b12 defficience/depletion) My assumption is maybe the 5 horses were going to serve as back up for the tournament so they weren't going to be used as hard/at all.

 

[alliecat44]

Selenium is actually an anti-oxidant, helping to stabilize cell membranes and prevent oxidative damage. A deficiency in selenium can result in myocardial necrosis--something that definitely could have killed these horses at around the same time.

In pigs, it's common to give iron injections to piglets. Iron is a potent oxidizing agent, however, and if you don't supplement then with enough selenium to prevent the damage from free radicals--or if you just overdose them on the iron--then they die pretty quickly.

I can see the same thing happening in horses if one of the components of the "supplement" is a potent oxidizing agent and there wasn't enough selenium in the mixture.

Very, very sad.

 

[No Imagination]

Dollars to donuts - its a decimal point error

 

[critterfixer]

I'm still going with potassium. Either that, or an altogether wrong agent mixed into the supplement. Very sad.

 

[alliecat44]

Hmmm, apparently both Mg and K were in the supplement--they were compounding a drug approved in Europe but not approved in the US called Biodyl: http://www.sabong.net.ph/forum/showthread.php?t=13461

I bet you're right--the K and/or the Mg. Man, that's so sad.

 

[chyactnate]

Dollars to donuts - its a decimal point error

I totally agree

 

[DocDVMD]

.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,517619,00.html

 

[Bill59]

I thought Se toxicity took alot longer to develop (you'd see poor hooves, skimpy tail etc).
It seems that more horses on the first truck were affected.

That's chronic Se toxicity, which is the most common. Acute, high dose Se overdose can be fatal pretty fast.

Sounds like the pharmacy knows the problem, I'm sure it will become public soon enough.

 

[tealamutt]

we regularly see problems with Se deficiency due to our low Se soil, since we have to suppliment, overdose/rapid administration errors are seen as well (though not frequently). Our toxicologist said it sounded like Se toxicity before they even released the "biodyl-like supplement" admission. If she ends up being right, she's my hero...

 

[ImaJerseyGirl]

That's chronic Se toxicity, which is the most common. Acute, high dose Se overdose can be fatal pretty fast.

Sounds like the pharmacy knows the problem, I'm sure it will become public soon enough.

Thanks for clearing that up. 🙂

 

[starlene45]

I think there are some interesting conversations that could be had here about the whole compounding issue in general. My understanding is that when pharmacies compound medications there is basically no regulation of how they do it/what they use as fillers and that compounding mistakes are not infrequent. This info comes from someone who works in the pharmaceutical industry, but she does works for a drug company so, LOL, there may be some bias there?? Anyone out there have any knowledge or experience in this area?

Anyway, I think the situation is pretty interesting-- vet asks pharmacy to make up a "drug" that is not approved for use here, pharmacy f's it up, millions of dollars worth of horses die.... I wouldn't be surprised if there are repercussions for the vet, too. Sucks!

 

[Trilt]

This is kind of an interesting post about the subject: http://scienceblogs.com/terrasig/2009/04/biodyl_francks_pharmacy_and_fl.php

 

[No Imagination]

This is kind of an interesting post about the subject: http://scienceblogs.com/terrasig/2009/04/biodyl_francks_pharmacy_and_fl.php

Precisely how this supplement killed the animals is not yet known but I can guarantee that it was a calculation error involving an errant decimal point, the bane of any professor in the STEM disciplines.

 

[StillDreaming]

I think there are some interesting conversations that could be had here about the whole compounding issue in general. My understanding is that when pharmacies compound medications there is basically no regulation of how they do it/what they use as fillers and that compounding mistakes are not infrequent. This info comes from someone who works in the pharmaceutical industry, but she does works for a drug company so, LOL, there may be some bias there?? Anyone out there have any knowledge or experience in this area?

Anyway, I think the situation is pretty interesting-- vet asks pharmacy to make up a "drug" that is not approved for use here, pharmacy f's it up, millions of dollars worth of horses die.... I wouldn't be surprised if there are repercussions for the vet, too. Sucks!

There are limitations on what can be compounded, there is not complete 'free rein'. Franck should have had a written prescription from the vet for each of the animals if he was to make up the drug for all of them (and it should have been dispensed, labeled correctly to each individual horse). So 21 seperate vials of this stuff should have been dispensed, each labeled for the correct horse. That is what legally should have been done.

My guess is that he probably just made one batch and put it in one vial for the 'herd' and gave it to the vet, problem one. Now the discussion for him and the FDA becomes was he compounding (which he can legally do) or was he manufacturing the product... it's gonna come down to paper work, and if he has shipped/'compounded' this drug for other animals in the US...

It will be interesting to see

 

[eventualeventer]

I'd say that the problem is that a lot of the compounding industry acts as if there were no regulation. Most vets either don't know (which they should!) or don't care. E.g., I see BOXES of Wedgewood Pharmacy (another big compounding pharmacy) powdered Bute being delivered to my barn (by a vet whom my friend and I would never use, for unrelated reasons) and distributed/sold to various boarders who want to have some on hand. The vet doesn't even know which clients want it -- Wedgewood bulk manufactures it and the vet buys cases of the stuff at a time. Maybe the vet writes a "prescription" for one of his OWN horses, but it's beyond credibility for a pharmacy to believe that one horse goes through, oh, a tub (100 g) a day or however much this vet sells per month.

Another example of what my old boss claimed* was illegal compounding was people getting compounding pharmacies (I don't remember which ones) to make liquid oral Baytril that was significantly cheaper than the injectable or pill forms, meaning that the pharmacy was not using either of those currently marketed/legal/approved forms but getting their enrofloxacin from some unregulated source. What some of these other cases are is actually the compounding pharmacy making an illegal generic because people don't want to pay full price for the brand name. Along those lines, I've also seen Wedgewood-made natamycin ophthalmic solution, which is cheaper than the commercially available Natacyn, which goes for between $250 and $300, but is the exact same form, concentration, etc.

* and I tend to believe him, he was very active in trying to stay informed of the latest FDA guidelines and interpretations

Besides this, there have been other cases of morbidity and mortality in horses attributed to compounding errors. A few years ago, a couple horses out west died because they were being given compounded clenbuterol (NOT legal) which was too strong, causing them to die of heart failure. Compounding is certainly not something to take lightly, and I wonder if this will fuel attempts at education and enforcement.

 

[LLIPPY]

Wow. I had no idea about the lack of whatever it is going on with compounding. Does anyone have info they can PM me on this?

My cat was just diagnosed hyperthyroid and I was considering having his methimazole compounded into treats. Should I avoid this? Strange I never thought of it...

 

[Mistoffeles]

Another example of what my old boss claimed* was illegal compounding was people getting compounding pharmacies (I don't remember which ones) to make liquid oral Baytril that was significantly cheaper than the injectable or pill forms, meaning that the pharmacy was not using either of those currently marketed/legal/approved forms but getting their enrofloxacin from some unregulated source. What some of these other cases are is actually the compounding pharmacy making an illegal generic because people don't want to pay full price for the brand name.

We use VPA in Texas for our compounded drugs. In particular, Enrofloxacin in banana flavor for bunnies, although also Prednisolone, Metronidazole, Methimazole, Tramadol, Gabapentin, Cisapride, and a few others. These are mostly for clients who have kitties who can not be pilled or won't eat food with pills crushed up - but the docs routinely want the Pred, Methimazole, and Metronidazole dispensed because they say the taste of the pills is awful. We also use VPA for transdermal gels.

 

[alliecat44]

There are some great compounding pharmacies out there. There are actually courses pharmacists can take (both in pharmacy school and as CE) in veterinary compounding.

There are plenty of FDA regulations on compounding--including one that states that it is illegal for a pharmacy to compound a drug into a concentration/strength that it is already sold by the manufacturer. There has to be something different about the product to justify compounding. So, the pharmacy that was compounding the Baytril and the eyedrops--IF it's the same concentration and suspension medium or whatever as commercially available--is likely doing something illegal (and the vet is, too--we're not allowed to prescribe those medications for compounding). If you need something compounded, you have to need it in a strength that isn't sold commercially. (So, the bunny Baytril is another story--it's obviously needed in a strength that isn't made by Bayer.)

Also, if a veterinary product labeled for the species in question exists, that's the product you have to have compounded--not the human form (from what I understand).

You're also not allowed to buy in bulk "for hospital use" from compounding pharmacies, either.

There are plenty of regulations--this is probably a math error. What the other posters on here were referring to sound somewhat shady--but we don't know the exact circumstances there, either.

If you want/need a compounded product for your own pet, just make sure it's a pharmacy with experience in veterinary compounding. There are tons of them out there--big, growing business for pharmacies.

 

[No Imagination]

So 21 seperate vials of this stuff should have been dispensed, each labeled for the correct horse. That is what legally should have been done.

...

My guess is that he probably just made one batch and put it in one vial for the 'herd' and gave it to the vet, problem one.

So... are you saying that they have to compound a drug 21 DIFFERENT times (once for each animal?!) Or just compound it 1x and put into 21 DIFFERENT vials?

Compounding 21 different times for 21 different animals sounds ridiculous and increases chances of something anomalous happening (not to mention, making up such small batches increases error).

Just curious

 

[bakaduin]

If you read the edit on the posted link above it is looking like Selenium toxicity is the culprit. Product had 5 mg instead of .5 mg of selenium.

 

[StillDreaming]

So... are you saying that they have to compound a drug 21 DIFFERENT times (once for each animal?!) Or just compound it 1x and put into 21 DIFFERENT vials?

Compounding 21 different times for 21 different animals sounds ridiculous and increases chances of something anomalous happening (not to mention, making up such small batches increases error).

Just curious

No you can compound it once, and put it in 21 seperate vials... sorry if i made that sound confusing... The point i was trying to make was that it has to be in seperate vials for each patient, but it can be compounded in one batch and seperated.

Thank you for pointing that out

 

[rachroo]

I've wondered how the vet who was responsible for this tragedy felt...that would be hard to deal with knowing 'you' were responsible. Here's just a snippet:

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_DEAD_POLO_HORSES?SITE=PASTR&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT